Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[NoahStar]

Dear lord...

You understand that "Trick" as an argument is largely invalid as trick's prevalence this generation has gone down by as much as knock off's presence has gone up. Rotom-w used to almost always trick, and it was the main user. Now, Rotom-w goes Physically defensive and carries leftovers the majority of the time. The usage of megas and assault vest has neutralized trick's usage.

Then again, Chansey is the first pokemon I can think in thread that has been judged due to it's need of an item. How about AV Conk, band azumarill? For azumarill, someone even said "You wouldn't face an azumarill without a band, the calculations need that". No one argued that trick/knock off could happen there. Why? Probably because good players don't let key pokemon get tricked when they have a perfect counter in a mega.


tl:dr Chansey absorbs hits better than blissey w/eviolite, bulk is null without. Special set doesn't happen when Blissey clerics. Sylveon can't make big enough wishes to dream of competing with these two as true clerics... Only run for some offensive mono-pressure and semi-useful resists.

Please. I'll rely on my own knowledge to keep chansey clear of threats it should never take on in the first place and use the superior cleric.

If Azumarill loses its Choice Band? Its still viable and can still run a Belly Drum set

If Conkeldurr loses its AV? Its still able to tank through a good portion of the metagame

If Chansey loses Eviolite? Its abolute dead weight to the team. Period.

The difference between Azu, Conk, and Chansey is that the former 2 don't rely on their items and can run multiple threatening sets. Chansey HAS to have its Eviolite to be effective.

 

[DiscoDucky]

If Azumarill loses its Choice Band? Its still viable and can still run a Belly Drum set

If Conkeldurr loses its AV? Its still able to tank through a good portion of the metagame

If Chansey loses Eviolite? Its abolute dead weight to the team. Period.

The difference between Azu, Conk, and Chansey is that the former 2 don't rely on their items and can run multiple threatening sets. Chansey HAS to have its Eviolite to be effective.

Please define losing. When I read that "Azumarill loses its Choice Band? Its still viable and can still run a Belly Drum set", I thought you were saying that if you Knock Off a CB Azu, it can magically run Belly Drum.

Just to clarify, Chansey without Eviolilte is not complete dead weight. Running a Chansey with Leftovers still allows it to accomplish its role as a fat Special wall. Eviolite simply augments both defenses and give it a strong niche over fatter blob Blissey.

Finally, every single Pokemon relies on their item to be effective. AV Conkeldurr allows it to safely switch into Conk and fcuk its shit up and CB Azu allows it to fcuk everyone's shit up. I think you're talking about set diversity rather than reliance on items, and I agree that Chansey is a one-item pony, but I already addressed the fact that Chansey is crap this meta either way.

 

[NoahStar]

Please define losing. When I read that "Azumarill loses its Choice Band? Its still viable and can still run a Belly Drum set", I thought you were saying that if you Knock Off a CB Azu, it can magically run Belly Drum.

Hahaha I should have worded that better. I meant that Azu has more than just one set that makes it viable and isn't a one-trick pony...bunny.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Okay, Chansey is in fact crippled by Knock Off (like most walls are, except for Mega Venusaur/Aggron ofcourse). If people can give me some common scenarios where this would happen in practice then please, but I don't really see it. Common users of Knock Off from the top off my head are Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, some Gliscor, Mega Venusaur (rarely), Bisharp, Sableye and Tentacruel. Chansey has no business coming in on any of those, or staying in against them. I use Chansey extensively on my Stall team, and I can say that I've never had my item knocked off by any of these (or any others for that matter).

Point remains that Chansey is a top class special wall and provides invaluable team support on top of that. Also, the second most used set runs T-Wave, so thinking you can freely bring in your Mega Lucario and setup without risk is dead wrong. I even saw someone say that Sylveon does everything better than Chansey, which honestly made me laugh. Sylveon is in B while Chansey is in A, so if you're going to argue with the people that made this ranking in the first place (I believe they must be intelligent and respectable people to put together this whole list) then you're going to need to come with solid arguments. Arguments like "Knock Off exists" and "Keldeo kills it so it should be B/C rank" are not acceptable in my book, at least.

 

[Laurel]

What kind of awful player user doesn't run a boosting item on Cloyster? With LO or Icicle Plate that's a clean 2HKO so Aegislash isn't a counter.
Cloyster is also one of the very few physical sweepers that doesn't rely on contact moves, meaning Aegislsh can't screw it over with King's Shield.
With its massive physical bulk and Mach Punch users becoming less common it fears no form of priority besides Mega Lucario's Vacuum Wave. Speaking of priority, it has the strongest Ice Shard in the game after setting up, meaning common scarf users such as Latios aren't a reliable answer.
You also underestimate Cloyster's set up opportunities, which are way more numerous than they used to be in Gen 5 thanks to the Defog buff and the assistance of reliable dual screen users such as Klefki.
Sadly Cloyster has a bad reputation for being one of the many pokemon low ladder players use wrong (no, kids, the Focus Sash and Power Herb sets aren't good) which turns off many players. However it's still a great late-game sweeper and definitely deserves the A-rank.

Aegislash does counter Cloyster...

If Kings Rock Cloyster uses Shell Smash on the switch to Aegislash it does an astounding

+2 252+ Atk Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def (Aegislash): 125-150 (39.06 - 46.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Icicle Spear with out boosts does....

252+ Atk Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def (Aegislash): 60-75 (18.75 - 23.43%) -- possible 5HKO

These are also calcs with Adamant nature... and some people prefer Jolly to tie with Breloom

In return Aegislash does...

240+ SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 273-322 (112.8 - 133.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That is cloyster before it has the drops from shell smash, and if for some reason Cloyster is running Focus Sash, Aegislash has Shadow Sneak... and then your Icicle Spears are even weaker.

Also, who the hell would switch in a Scarf Latios on a Cloyster? Hello, everyone knows they have ice shard. Certainly, Cloyster is threatening but the presence of Aegislash on 13% of teams, Lucario on 15.9% of teams, and Scizor on 11.4% of teams completely limits its effectiveness. Also, from personal experience I have noticed that unaware Quagsire has become very popular on stall teams so Cloyster is outclased by pokemon like Mega Heracross, for breaking stall as well.

Again, Closyter is a threatening sweeper, but I'd give it B rank at best, because it has considerable flaws, and it's hard to pull off without a good amount of support.

 

[Subject 18]

I'm going to echo what LiarLiarPantsonFire said. What scenarios is Chansey switching into a mon that carries Knock Off? The only ones I can think of are Thundurus and Tornadus-T and even then Knock Off isn't that common on Thundurus and Tornadus-T isn't common.

So basically what's left are physical attackers like Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Bisharp and others where Chansey shouldn't be switching into or staying in on. So how exactly is Knock Off really a problem for it?

 

[TrippingRocks]

The biggest problem with Chansey is that it's one of the easiest pokemon to set up on. It literally has like... 3 moves to threaten sweepers (Seismic Toss, Thunder Wave, Toxic) and none of which are particularly hard to negate. For the status moves, just use Taunt or Substitute on Chansey. Considering Chansey's poor 50 base speed, pretty much anything would outspeed Chansey and get off the Taunt/Sub before Chansey can afflict them with status. Seismic Toss deals a flat amount of damage, allowing ANY pokemon to take 2 or more hits from it. Or if you're a ghost, you're just flat-out immune to Chansey's only attack. Something like Aegislash would have a field day with Chansey. It's unaffected by Toxic and Seismic Toss and it doesn't really care about Thunder Wave. Ferrothorn similarly has a field day. Or Excadrill. Or Gengar with substitute. Or anything carrying taunt. Seismic Toss simply isn't a good move, but it's the best offensive move that Chansey has. Something like Gyarados can taunt Chansey and take 3 hits from Seismic Toss while dragon dancing. Any ghost pokemon with substitute/taunt completely screws over Chansey, making Chansey unable to do anything to them. The rising popularity of Knock Off is a new problem for Chansey, but that isn't his main issue. His main issue is that he's set-up fodder.

 

[NoahStar]

I'm going to echo what LiarLiarPantsonFire said. What scenarios is Chansey switching into a mon that carries Knock Off? The only ones I can think of are Thundurus and Tornadus-T and even then Knock Off isn't that common on Thundurus and Tornadus-T isn't common.

So basically what's left are physical attackers like Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Bisharp and others where Chansey shouldn't be switching into or staying in on. So how exactly is Knock Off really a problem for it?

The biggest scenario is when Chansey is used as a lead against Mandibuzz. Lots of Chansey run SR since the bulkier Pokemon are the better SR setters this gen. Now Chansey has to choose between setting up SR and risk getting its Eviolite knocked off or missing the opportunity to set up rocks and switch out (most players will do this.)

Another scenario is Conk coming in on Chansey to absorb a status move and scaring it out with a Knock Off--which can put you in a bad position whether you switch or not--or Drain Punch.

I can see a lot of Thundurus running Knock Off just because they can KO Chansey after its lost its Eviolite
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 273-322 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 486-572 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 386-456 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The threat of Knock Off alone is actually enough to scare Chansey. One wrong move or bad prediction and Chansey is rendered pretty useless for the rest of the match.

 

[MKL122788]

I'm going to echo what LiarLiarPantsonFire said. What scenarios is Chansey switching into a mon that carries Knock Off? The only ones I can think of are Thundurus and Tornadus-T and even then Knock Off isn't that common on Thundurus and Tornadus-T isn't common.

So basically what's left are physical attackers like Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Bisharp and others where Chansey shouldn't be switching into or staying in on. So how exactly is Knock Off really a problem for it?

I also agree with this. The thought of putting Chansey out there against Conkeldurr(lol) or Mandibuzz(taunt fodder) along with the other physical threats on the list made me laugh. If you are putting Chansey in against these pokemon, you will turn knock off into a problem for your entire team. Of course, everything is a problem for stupid.

While the special damage reduction has created more physical than magical sweepers, you also have to consider that Chansey can do her job as a special sponge slightly more effectively than before on that same fact. Chances are, if you are running a pink blob, you are playing with a mega that will stop these threats/threaten to KO them. She is still a premier special wall and cleric. The role itself might have been diminished by the changes, but not her ability to do it.

The solid argument is the free turns a Knock-Off threatened against a Chansey can generate.

In short, Chansey shouldn't be getting Knock-Off'd, and her effectiveness could be better than before. It is the her primary role of special wall that has become less useful this generation, in my opinion.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Okay, Chansey is in fact crippled by Knock Off (like most walls are, except for Mega Venusaur/Aggron ofcourse). If people can give me some common scenarios where this would happen in practice then please, but I don't really see it. Common users of Knock Off from the top off my head are Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, some Gliscor, Mega Venusaur (rarely), Bisharp, Sableye and Tentacruel. Chansey has no business coming in on any of those, or staying in against them. I use Chansey extensively on my Stall team, and I can say that I've never had my item knocked off by any of these (or any others for that matter).

Point remains that Chansey is a top class special wall and provides invaluable team support on top of that. Also, the second most used set runs T-Wave, so thinking you can freely bring in your Mega Lucario and setup without risk is dead wrong. I even saw someone say that Sylveon does everything better than Chansey, which honestly made me laugh. Sylveon is in B while Chansey is in A, so if you're going to argue with the people that made this ranking in the first place (I believe they must be intelligent and respectable people to put together this whole list) then you're going to need to come with solid arguments. Arguments like "Knock Off exists" and "Keldeo kills it so it should be B/C rank" are not acceptable in my book, at least.

"Sylveon is B and Chansey is A"
I hope you read how people are complaining that GingaNinja hasn't updated the front page in forever. Ginga is intelligent, just not as active to update the OP.

Frankly speaking, I would definitely say Sylveon is better than Chansey. Most of the things Chansey walls Sylveon walls sufficiently. Furthermore, Sylv can pass decent-sized Wishes. It gets Lefties recovery and a Pixillate Hyper Voice, which means that a 1.3x boosted STAB is definitely not something you want to switch into. Finally, Sylveon has an ultimately better typing than Chansey. Normal affords only one weakness but no resistances (bar one immunity to Ghost). Sylveon has more relavant resistances and less common weaknesses.

No one's arguing that Chansey isn't a fantastic Special Wall, but she's humongous set-up bait in this meta. And the T-Wave argument is less than compelling. December 2013 usage says that T-Wave's at a 23% usage, which isn't low per se, but it's comparatively less common than the other status move Toxic at a 65% usage. Also, Chansey is super-weak to hazards and status (and TTar's sandstorm), especially without Leftovers. By switching in and out from a threat, Chansey racks up hits every time she switches in, and in this offensive meta, Chansey rarely gets the chance to Wish or Soft-Boil. Simply put, wherever Blissey is, Chansey should be ranked lower.

 

[ryan]

Just popping in to nom some mons for a lower rank than they were originally nommed.

Mega Blastoise: someone nommed for B, but it should be C+. Mega Blastoise is cool, but there are a lot of problems with it. Biggest problem is that it takes up your mega slot, which means when you could be using Mega Venusaur defensively or Mega Charizard/Pinsir (who ironically would be fantastic with Mega Blastoise), you're instead using your mega slot for hazard removal/a bulky attacker. Yeah, Mega Blastoise hits hard, and it beats on pretty much every spinblocker. But it's also not as bulky as you'd like it to be when running max HP/SpA and not as strong as you'd like it to be when you run max HP/Def. It's definitely not a bad mon, but it's definitely not B worthy.

Leavanny: someone nommed for C, should be D. It's a cool Sticky Web user, especially because of all the tools it has at its disposal. Grass STAB, Knock Off, Magic Coat, Swords Dance, Agility I think?, Baton Pass. All cools moves that set it apart from Galvantula. But its lower Speed and weaker attacks make Galvantula a generally better choice.

Espeon: nommed for B, should be C. Espeon is disgustingly predictable. Landog U-turns on it, Galvantula's got Bug Buzz, Heatran spams attacks because Espeon can't do shit back, Excadrill's Mold Breaker lets it set up Stealth Rock anyways, Deoxys-S and -D just hang out until Espeon can be killed, Ttar laughs at it, etc. For hazard bouncing, you're better off just running hazard removal. It's not like it's in short supply these days. But its niches as a dual screener and BP recipient are good enough to keep it in C, and Magic Bounce is still a good ability, even if Espeon is trash at making use of it.

Entei: nommed for like A/B+/B or some shit, should be C+/C. Sacred Fire is cool, Extreme Speed is cool, but that's all it has to justify a teamslot and other stuff can run Extreme Speed well anyways. So it's pretty much Sacred Fire that gives it a niche in OU, which is alright, but definitely not A worthy and not really B worthy either to me.

Krookodile: nommed for B, should be C+. I know Fuzznip has an enormous boner for Krook, but B is far too generous for it. Over Landog, it's got the ability to check Aegislash and Tyranitar, STAB Knock Off, and Taunt. But Landog can check pretty much every Fighting-type in the tier, has U-turn which is huge, still has Knock Off even if it doesn't get STAB on it, has the Special Attack to use HP Ice, and has the offenses to run SD/RP. Krook is a cool mon, but its niches are more C+ to me than B.

Other stuff that should probably move but haven't been mentioned:

Mega Medicham: why the fuck is this in A-rank? It's a good Pokemon, yeah, but it's also frail and not hard to outspeed, competing with other faster megas with way stronger STABs and/or setup moves and/or significantly better priority than shitty non-STAB Bullet Punch, hard-walled by Aegislash which is one of the top Pokemon in the meta (like no one is letting their Aegislash die while you have a Mega Medicham around lol). Its Speed is actually not good for an offensive Pokemon. Scarf Genesect outspeeds and does like 50% with U-turn. Mega Lucario outspeeds and either does ~75% with Close Combat or nearly OHKOs with Flash Cannon. Talonflame bones it. Thundurus-I can T-wave or just smack it with a Tbolt. Lati@s bone it. Mega Pinsir demolishes it. Lando bones it. Greninja has a chance to OHKO with Hydro Pump. Gengar destroys it. Keldeo destroys it. Azumarill can't outspeed but can deal a ton with CB AJet or just tank a hit and Play Rough. Charizards only need to win the Speed tie, and Char Y can even live a hit from full. Like it's really not that hard to deal with Mega Medicham because it's slow and pretty much just outclassed by Mega Lucario as a wallbreaker/sweeper anyways.

Mega Absol: should probably drop to C+/C. It's not bad, but why would I use it over any other Mega?

Infernape: C, nothing else really to say here

Tentacruel: C, why would I use it over any other Spinner/Defog user? Its typing is good, but it has so much competition and no permanent rain that it doesn't belong in B.

Jellicent: C+, good typing, Recover, but what does it actually wall anymore?

[edit] on the Chansey shit, it only ever runs Aromatherapy/Heal Bell if it's running Soft-Boiled. Otherwise, it runs Wish/Protect/Seismic Toss/Toxic. Chansey is also only viable on stall anyways, so being "setup fodder" for those Pokemon isn't the end of the world because you will have things to handle those Pokemon as well. Chansey does what it does well, and there's no reason to drop it down when either it or Blissey is going to be on every stall team.

 

[Subject 18]

The biggest scenario is when Chansey is used as a lead against Mandibuzz. Lots of Chansey run SR since the bulkier Pokemon are the better SR setters this gen. Now Chansey has to choose between setting up SR and risk getting its Eviolite knocked off or missing the opportunity to set up rocks and switch out (most players will do this.)

There are better SR users for stall teams to use such as Skarmory and Heatran. Sure you can run SR on chansey but there better users so you free up a moveslot for cleric support or wish. So this scenario isn't a great example of where Chansey can get Knocked Off. Even then it's only threatened and it can always come in later and set up SR.

Another scenario is Conk coming in on Chansey to absorb a status move and scaring it out with a Knock Off--which can put you in a bad position whether you switch or not--or Drain Punch.

Conkeldurr came in on Chansey to scare it. This happens all the time with countless pokemon where on can switch in and scare it off (definition of a check). Chansey isn't staying in and you go to the appropriate check for Conkeldurr.

I can see a lot of Thundurus running Knock Off just because they can KO Chansey after its lost its Eviolite
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 273-322 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 486-572 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 386-456 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The threat of Knock Off alone is actually enough to scare Chansey. One wrong move or bad prediction and Chansey is rendered pretty useless for the rest of the match.

This is an example I gave you. Which doesn't occur often as it is. Just the threat of it isnt enough to say Chansey isn't usable. By that logic Genesect shouldnt be used but Zard Y and heatran exist in OU. The threat of knock off is there, I won't deny it but more often than not Chansey isn't getting it's eviolite knocked off. It's always going to switch out of potential knock offs and only fears being hit with it on the switch by very few users. This isn't nearly enough to say Chansey isn't usable.

 

[NoahStar]

There are better SR users for stall teams to use such as Skarmory and Heatran. Sure you can run SR on chansey but there better users so you free up a moveslot for cleric support or wish. So this scenario isn't a great example of where Chansey can get Knocked Off. Even then it's only threaten and it can always come in later and set up SR.



Conkeldurr came in on Chansey to scare it. This happens all the time with countless pokemon where on can switch in and scare it off (definition of a check). Chansey isn't staying in and you go to the appropriate check for Conkeldurr.



This is an example I gave you. Which doesn't occur often as it is. Just the threat of it isnt enough to say Chansey isn't usable. By that logic Genesect shouldnt be used but Zard Y and heatran exist in OU. The threat of knock off is there, I won't deny it but more often than not Chansey isn't getting it's eviolite knocked off. It's always going to switch out of potential knock offs and only fears being hit with it on the switch by very few users. This isn't nearly enough to say Chansey isn't usable.

So what happens when Chansey switches out of a potential Knock Off? Said check also risks having their item knocked off. When you think about it, unless you're switching into a Pokemon that is holding the correct Mega Stone, something is going to be knocked off. This could actually be pretty momentum breaking as said check may really need their item (Talonflame, Tentacruel, Skarmory) or may not be able to take a Knock Off itself on the switch (Reuniclus, Gengar, Lati@s). This is all because Chansey was scared out. As stretched as this argument is, at its core Chansey can become a liability. Granted this can be said for many other defensive Pokemon, but no other defensive Pokemon are so crippled by Knock Off as Chansey.

I never said that Chansey is not usable. What I think we are all saying is that we have given the evidence that Chansey is not as good as it was last gen and does not deserve to be in Rank A. By definition, it would fall into Rank B.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

So what happens when Chansey switches out of a potential Knock Off? Said check also risks having their item knocked off. When you think about it, unless you're switching into a Pokemon that is holding the correct Mega Stone, something is going to be knocked off. This could actually be pretty momentum breaking as said check may really need their item (Talonflame, Tentacruel, Skarmory) or may not be able to take a Knock Off itself on the switch (Reuniclus, Gengar, Lati@s). This is all because Chansey was scared out. As stretched as this argument is, at its core Chansey can become a liability. Granted this can be said for many other defensive Pokemon, but no other defensive Pokemon are so crippled by Knock Off as Chansey.

I never said that Chansey is not usable. What I think we are all saying is that we have given the evidence that Chansey is not as good as it was last gen and does not deserve to be in Rank A. By definition, it would fall into Rank B.

All the "evidence" you guys have given is that Chansey is crippled by Knock Off and that it gets setup on by Ghost-types and physical attackers. Likewise I could argue that Genesect gets crippled by Knock Off and gets walled by Heatran and bulky waters. Or that Mega Venusaur is threatened by Talonflame and Latios. Or that Mega Charizard Y is weak to Stealth Rock. This doesn't take away from the substantial strengths of these pokemon, and neither do your arguments take away from Chansey's capabilities as a special wall, cleric, WishPasser, pivot, status absorber, Toxic staller and so on. It singlehandedly makes Stall viable because of how many threats it walls, and I can say this out of experience. Have you used Chansey extensively? I seriously doubt it from reading all the theorymon you're posting.

 

[Colonel M]

Chansey requires having something like Mega Venusaur that can take any of the Knock Off users (or at least the majority of them). It's probably one of the better teammates for it.

Still I find Chansey really deplorable this generation. It is only "decent" and nothing more. It is borderline on the B/C range for sure.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mega Medicham: why the fuck is this in A-rank? It's a good Pokemon, yeah, but it's also frail and not hard to outspeed, competing with other faster megas with way stronger STABs just a note, Medicham's High Jump Kick is the strongest unboosted attack in the game, no other mega has a stronger STAB and/or setup moves and/or significantly better priority than shitty non-STAB Bullet Punch, hard-walled by Aegislash which is one of the top Pokemon in the meta (like no one is letting their Aegislash die while you have a Mega Medicham around lol). Its Speed is actually not good for an offensive Pokemon. Scarf Genesect outspeeds and does like 50% with U-turn. Mega Lucario outspeeds and either does ~75% with Close Combat or nearly OHKOs with Flash Cannon. Talonflame bones it. Thundurus-I can T-wave or just smack it with a Tbolt. Lati@s bone it. Mega Pinsir demolishes it. Lando bones it. Greninja has a chance to OHKO with Hydro Pump. Gengar destroys it. Keldeo destroys it. Azumarill can't outspeed but can deal a ton with CB AJet or just tank a hit and Play Rough. Charizards only need to win the Speed tie, and Char Y can even live a hit from full.

Absolutely zero of the Pokemon you mentioned can safely switch-in, except Aegislash who loses most of its HP from Fire Punch (59.2 - 70.3%). Everything you listed gets OHKOed by either of HJK, Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt or one of the elemental punches, with the exception of Azumarill who gets 2HKOed by Psycho Cut and Aegislash who gets 2HKOed by Fire Punch.

I covered this is a previous post but nothing relevant to OU is capable of walling it or even safely switching in, with the exception of Sableye and physical LO Aegislash. 100 speed is not good for a sweeper, but it's enough to outspeed all defensive Pokemon. It's a great wallbreaker that can handle pretty much any defensive Pokemon, with its only limitation being having to choose between Fire Punch for Aegislash or Thunder Punch for a handful of other things.

Like it's really not that hard to deal with Mega Medicham because it's slow and pretty much just outclassed by Mega Lucario as a wallbreaker/sweeper anyways.

Then it's a good thing Medicham is already ranked lower than Lucario.

If it really has to be lowered, I'd only go with B or B+. Mega Heracross is B and it and Medicham's roles are very similar.

 

[epicdrill]

List of previously decided on pokemon:
Rotom-H - B+
Blastoise (Mega) - B(-)
Starmie - B(-)
Chandelure - B(-)
Gardevoir (Mega) - B
Latias - A(-)/B+
Latios - A(-)/B+
Hydreigon - B
Staraptor - B
Entei - B(+)
Rotom-W - S
Once again, thanks to sidakarya for compiling the original list. I have stopped quoting it because it would no longer be an accurate quote, as things are being added to the list. I will still bump this list until ginganinja updates the OP. And by update the OP, I do not mean add icons. I mean adjust the ranks.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

If you're using Chansey on a balance team, then you're doing something wrong.
Just like if you're using Mega Lucario on a full stall team.

It's a stall mon, all stall teams should have a way to handle these potential checks. And as it has been mentioned, Mega Venusaur is probably the teammate for Chansey, meaning that this whole Knock Off argument is just... why. These arguments are as bad as using SpecsTrick on a Talonflame hinders his use and should therefore drop a ranking. Sure, the move is around more often. So is Heatran for Talonflame and Genesect. (for those unable to see it, this is an overexaggeration for the sake of the argument)

And I can assure you, the Knock Off was already considered in the original ranking. That's why it's A. Not A+ or S. It's an utterly fantastic mon to run on stall teams, and the fact is even neutral STABs from physical attackers sometimes struggle breaking the blob. Blissey has what over it, aside from the option to run some other attacks (which more often than not deals less damage than Toss) and leftovers? Really nothing. The two are very similar pokemon. But I still believe Chansey is the superior mon here.

 

[Triskili]

List of previously decided on pokemon:
Starmie - B(-)

I kinda agree with you there! :3

If Exca is up there already, Starmie should be up there by now if not earlier. Of course, with Exca's Mold breaker proving to be helpful against pokemon like Gengar and Rotom, Starmie is not as viable offensively when you think about it. The Offensive Rapid Spinner Starmie utilizes is sort of nerfed in a sense that Hydro Pump's base damage is lowered and that perma rain is not seen any more. Doesn't mean that Starmie should be used just defensively (despite the fact that defensive starmie is very very useful~) but it means that Offensive Starmie is not as popular in the OU meta compared to the older gen. That said, Starmie in the B rank as a spinner should be alright since BoltBeam is very very good in terms of coverage and utilizing recover is really great if you want to have a bulky spinner. It's not as good as Exca (despite me not liking exca too too much but that's due to Exca not synergizing well with current team) but Starmie has some niche in the game and it's pretty good. Maybe A-rank (maybe just to be even with Exca) but at the least, should be around the B rank. ^^

 

[epicdrill]

I kinda agree with you there! :3

If Exca is up there already, Starmie should be up there by now if not earlier. Of course, with Exca's Mold breaker proving to be helpful against pokemon like Gengar and Rotom, Starmie is not as viable offensively when you think about it. The Offensive Rapid Spinner Starmie utilizes is sort of nerfed in a sense that Hydro Pump's base damage is lowered and that perma rain is not seen any more. Doesn't mean that Starmie should be used just defensively (despite the fact that defensive starmie is very very useful~) but it means that Offensive Starmie is not as popular in the OU meta compared to the older gen. That said, Starmie in the B rank as a spinner should be alright since BoltBeam is very very good in terms of coverage and utilizing recover is really great if you want to have a bulky spinner. It's not as good as Exca (despite me not liking exca too too much but that's due to Exca not synergizing well with current team) but Starmie has some niche in the game and it's pretty good. Maybe A-rank (maybe just to be even with Exca) but at the least, should be around the B rank. ^^

Let me make something completely clear: I am not proposing these, there are ones that were previously decided. It was a list originally posted by sidakarya at the very bottom of page 90, which I have been bumping and updating since.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

List of previously decided on pokemon:
Rotom-H - B+
Blastoise (Mega) - B(-)
Starmie - B(-)
Chandelure - B(-)
Gardevoir (Mega) - B
Latias - A(-)/B+
Latios - A(-)/B+
Hydreigon - B
Staraptor - B
Entei - B(+)
Once again, thanks to sidakarya for compiling the original list. I have stopped quoting it because it would no longer be an accurate quote, as things are being added to the list. I will still bump this list until ginganinja updates the OP. And by update the OP, I do not mean add icons. I mean adjust the ranks.

I you're going to repost this every page, you might as well keep it current - there was almost unanimous agreement on Rotom-W to S-rank last page.

Triskili, as much as I love Starmie, it's just not on the same level as Excadrill as an offensive spinner right now - Exca takes the edge by being more powerful, having a fun mold breaker earthquake to take out Rotom-W, being able to run an effective assault vest set, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. Because of this, Starmie is best off in B, maybe B+ at max.

So yeah the knock off argument was not that impressive, Chansey and Blissey probably belong in more or less the same place (I'm not a stall player so I don't have my own opinion on which is better).
Anyway I think it fits A-rank pretty well - nobody is going to argue against the fact that Chansey can wall a significant portion of the metagame (IE all special attackers not named Keldeo). I was questioning it because it's classic setup fodder, but after revisiting the definition of A-rank I found this: Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns.

I don't love Chansey, but it fits the definition of A-rank perfectly.

 

[Triskili]

Let me make something completely clear: I am not proposing these, there are ones that were previously decided. It was a list originally posted by sidakarya at the very bottom of page 90, which I have been bumping and updating since.

That is fine I guess. ._."

Triskili, as much as I love Starmie, it's just not on the same level as Excadrill as an offensive spinner right now - Exca takes the edge by being more powerful, having a fun mold breaker earthquake to take out Rotom-W, being able to run an effective assault vest set, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. Because of this, Starmie is best off in B, maybe B+ at max.

Understandable. I kinda like Exca for the mold breaker against the amount of Rotoms/Gengars I've been seeing recently. I haven't ran an Assault Vest Exca but having that for some usage is actually kinda interesting. Plus, being able to run a sword dance with decent coverage (Rock/Earth is not a bad move coverage at all!) proves that Exca can be a better offensive spinner on top of the Assault Vest Exca. I wanted to put Starmie on par with Exca but I can see (and saw from my own reasons earlier) the reason why it is not as good as Exca. Just wishful thinking.... :s

 

[Mood4food77]

Chansey is closer to be D-rank than A-rank.

Knock off ruins it, it's set up fodder for almost any physical attack, the most it can do is threaten with toxic and seismic toss, which Blissey can do as well, it's pretty much entirely outclassed by Blissey this gen, who I would rank no higher than B as while it has similar problems to what Chansey has, it has somewhat of an offensive presence outside of seismic toss and isn't neutered by knock off.

Chansey for C Rank


Here's one that might get some slack, but I nominate Mega Blastoise (or Blastoise in general) for A Rank
Here me out. If Blastoise didn't require a Mega Stone, he'd be the best spinner out there. Not only does he wreck all anti-spinners, but he also works great against defoggers as well with options like Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse. He is harder to switch into than Excadrill and we consider Excadrill to be the best spinner out there. While Mega Blastoise lacks recovery outside of the absolutely amazing move in Aqua Ring (sarcasm for those who can't detect it), he makes up for it in pure power. He pretty much beats all other spinners, defoggers, and anti-spinners on his own, something that no other hazard control Pokemon can claim. Yes, he does have a little bit of 4MSS since he cannot run Rapid Spin, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and a water move all at once but he does have these options that can make him a little bit unpredictable. He's got good enough defensive stats where he is usually 3HKO'd by unboosted neutral moves (meaning he can get a spin off and put a dent into things before he dies). His really only big flaw is that he requires a mega stone and we have options like Mega Lucario and Mega Venusaur to use, who in their own right are pretty god damn stupid. I really think Mega Blastoise is slept on and definitely deserves a higher ranking than where he currently is.

 

[acestriker19]

I'm gonna take this moment to nominate Mew for B+ mostly because of its utility this gen. Mew has, along with every other move, the newly buffed defog: one of the few defoggers not weak to Stealth Rocks. Mew's base 100 speed puts it in a very crowded tier but it is very fast for bulky defog user or bulky utility and 100/100/100 defenses are good as well. Mew boasts all the best utility moves it can spin hazards, set up stealth rock, cleric statuses, burn, while Mew cannot do all of these on the same set the mere fact that it has access to all these moves makes potential counters wary especially the will-o-wisp. Uninvested base 100 attacks hit pretty hard as well.

Unfortunately Mew's set-up sets are poor because it has to give up coverage for SD/NP + rock polish or rely on univested to outspeed mons above 100 speed but as Mewtility becomes more popular these sets will become more viable as surprise sets.

While pretty much all of mew's sets are outclassed by other mons Mew's sheer unpredictability can make it good at using these sets because there isn't really mew counter (well except U-Turn genesect I guess) until you know what set the Mew is running.

I'm not an expert on Mew so I would love to hear someone else's view, but I feel he deserves to be mentioned at B+ because he's really flying under the radar this gen despite his shiny new buffed Defog and his overall unpredictability.

Chansey is closer to be D-rank than A-rank.

Knock off ruins it, it's set up fodder for almost any physical attack, the most it can do is threaten with toxic and seismic toss, which Blissey can do as well, it's pretty much entirely outclassed by Blissey this gen, who I would rank no higher than B as while it has similar problems to what Chansey has, it has somewhat of an offensive presence outside of seismic toss and isn't neutered by knock off.

Chansey for C Rank

Did you even read what was just discussed.

Please stop talking about Chansey a user of Chansey knows he's weak to knock off meaning that they will supplement Chansey with a knock off absorber Mega Vensaur for instance. It is A or B-Rank because this is the ONLY support it really needs. Its like saying ferrothorn should be C-rank because its 4x weak to fire, a user of ferrothorn knows it weaknesses and pairs it with support just because Chansey needs some support doesn't mean its not worthy of A or B-rank.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Chansey is closer to be D-rank than A-rank.

Knock off ruins it, it's set up fodder for almost any physical attack, the most it can do is threaten with toxic and seismic toss, which Blissey can do as well, it's pretty much entirely outclassed by Blissey this gen, who I would rank no higher than B as while it has similar problems to what Chansey has, it has somewhat of an offensive presence outside of seismic toss and isn't neutered by knock off.

Chansey for C Rank

Read more. Do explain why Blissey outclasses Chansey entirely, aside from using Knock Off as an argument. Because that's not a solid argument, as we've mentioned the last few pages.
The answer is simple: the only thing Blissey does better is the option to have leftovers and Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Tbolt. But in the face of inferior bulk, I don't think that's worth it.