Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[epicdrill]

I you're going to repost this every page, you might as well keep it current - there was almost unanimous agreement on Rotom-W to S-rank last page.

Edited in, thanks. I didn't realize that a consensus was reached, rather, the impression I got was the argument was just dropped, but OK.

 

[Sandoori]

Mew stuff

I think Scolipede's got Mew beat at the baton passing niche, and there's plenty of other options for defog. Mew obviously has more options and can even combine sets, but Psychic typing really got the short end of the stick this gen with the introduction of stuff like Aegislash, steel nerf improving dark/ghost offensively and encouraging their use, Knock Off's buff not only making it a common go-to move but also a handy answer to Psychics for several fighting types such as Conkeldurr and Mienshao, Genesect being unbanned...I'm not going to say anything about where I think it should belong because admittedly I'm just theorymonning here, but Psychic is practically the new Ice defensively and other things can be found to fill the same niches.

I really want someone to tell me I'm wrong though because Mew's still one of my favorite pokes.

 

[Mood4food77]

Blissey has options to get around Steel types, especially Ferrothorn.
Is not castrated once it loses it's item.
Much more versatile
Gets to carry leftovers
Slight Bigger Wishes
Faster

listed in order of importance

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Edited in, thanks. I didn't realize that a consensus was reached, rather, the impression I got was the argument was just dropped, but OK.

I was practically the only person arguing against it, and that was mostly just because I picked a random side.

Mood4food if getting past steels is Blissey's biggest niche over chansey, that's pretty terrible as neither of them is supposed to get past anything - they're WALLS. Leftovers are probably the biggest bonus. I would say the two each have their positives and negatives and it's kinda down to personal preference which one you use on your stall team.

Mega Blastoise is good, but I don't see it going to A-rank - maybe B. It's bulky, but incredibly easy to wear down with absolutely no recovery, it's powerful, but way too slow to go full offensive. Don't get me wrong, it's a great spinner, but not great enough for A. Also, if we take into account the cost of a mega slot, Mega Blastoise just isn't worth it when you could be running mega Venusaur, Charizard, Lucario, Pinsir, or any other of the amazing megas that are available instead. So basically if the cost of the mega slot isn't a factor, I would support B, but if it is a factor, probably C.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Blissey has options to get around Steel types, especially Ferrothorn.
With uninvested base 75 SpA? Is Ferro even that relevant nowadays? Are there any 2x mons that suffer too badly from her Flamethrower?
Nah.
Is not castrated once it loses it's item.
When Chansey loses it's item, it's basically a mon with a tiny, tiny bit lower defenses and no lefties than to what Blissey is. It can play around it, if that would ever be the case.
But as mentioned, Knock Off users already scare Chansey out by default. And Blissey is scared out by the very same mons.
Much more versatile
Yes, that uninvested 75 SpA will do wonders for versatility. Let's forgo the option to take on weaker neutral STAB from physical attackers.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 258-304 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 352-415 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gets to carry leftovers
Admittedly and advantage in many cases, but when the overall damage output is lower... I dunno how much this matters
Slight Bigger Wishes
This matters not at all. Chansey's uninvested HP wishes hit 320-ish, meaning most pokemon will get above 80% healing from it anyways.
Faster
You don't need that speed.

listed in order of importance

Answers in bold

 

[RotomPoison]

As for Chansey vs Blissey, they both suck are annoying in the right circumstance. Blissey is better when face with multiple weak attacks due to Leftovers, while Chansey can switch in and take Specs Draco Meteors and Focus Blasts much better. They have advantages, but Blissey is not better for the reasons mentioned above. That SpAtk does not matter at all. AT ALL. You don't even 2HKO SpDef Ferro with Blissey while you die to a few Power Whips or allow it to take back a lot of health from Leech Seed. Blisseys advantage, and again, only advantage, is it is less prone to lower amounts of damage, including sand, hazards, or weaker attacks, while Chansey can switch in to stronger attacks better.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I love how people keep talking about how screwed chansey is against knock off when everything that carries it ALREADY beats BOTH chansey and blissey regardless of the move. If youre sending in the blobs against gliscor, tangrowth, venusaur, mamoswine, landorus-t, bisharp, weavile, absol, mienshao and sableye theres something wrong with you. Also lol at this ''blissey can use attack moves'' argument. It cant even 2hko skarmory and still lose to ferro due to leech seed anyway. This discussion is just insane, chansey is better than blissey in everything except for leftovers and should always be ranked over it regardless of whether it stays A or not.

 

[lred123]

As others have said chansey is clearly the best of the blobs even if it loses eviolite it can still tank sp attack like blissey it cant bulk physical hits but neither can blissey ad why would you switch chansey into knock off user

 

[RotomPoison]

As others have said chansey is clearly the best of the blobs even if it loses eviolite it can still tank sp attack like blissey it cant bulk physical hits but neither can blissey ad why would you switch chansey into knock off user

More of a case of most users of Knock Off beating both already.

 

[Mood4food77]

cause every steel type uses specially defensive sets

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 312-368 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 146-172 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

it's not supposed to beat them, it's supposed to make them worry about switching in, less options to switch in makes a pokemon harder to deal with, ferro and skarm aren't the only 2 steel types out there, although the skarmory one is moot, you still force it to roost up or die pretty much, limiting options (meaning you can actually PP stall roost with flamethrower)

no these aren't KOing each pokemon, but it does the job at royally screwing things over, as these things are all common switch-ins to blissey and chansey
look past the damage it does and more-so at making the opponents job harder, making it easier for your team to take advantage of

but here's another pretty big one

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 202-238 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 92.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

it does stop gengar from screwing you over, it can't sub up against you as you'll break it every time

it's more so about screwing up the opponent than actually dealing the damage, these are things that chansey can never hope to acheive

 

[Magnemite]

I love how people keep talking about how screwed chansey is against knock off when everything that carries it ALREADY beats BOTH chansey and blissey regardless of the move. If youre sending in the blobs against gliscor, tangrowth, venusaur, mamoswine, landorus-t, bisharp, weavile, absol, mienshao and sableye theres something wrong with you. Also lol at this ''blissey can use attack moves'' argument. It cant even 2hko skarmory and still lose to ferro due to leech seed anyway. This discussion is just insane, chansey is better than blissey in everything except for leftovers and should always be ranked over it regardless of whether it stays A or not.

In addition to this, Chansey isn't nearly as crippled by Knock Off in comparison to Blissey as many people are making it out to be. Chansey only has 5 less base HP and Defense than Blissey. While it does have 30 less Special Defense, it's still decent at walling special attackers after its Eviolite has been knocked off. Because of this, itemless Blissey isn't all that much bulkier than itemless Chansey. Yes, Chansey becomes less effective without its item. But seriously though, what Pokemon isn't significantly worse off without its item? Now, don't get me wrong, Chansey still hates Knock Off, but this coupled with the fact that any decent player wouldn't let their Chansey's item get Knocked Off most situations keeps Knock Off from outweighing the multitude of upsides Chansey has over Blissey.

 

[PrincessDerpy]

Blissey has options to get around Steel types, especially Ferrothorn.

Uninvested base 75. You're better off specializing as cleric instead of running a GOTCHA that won't even dissaude setup sweepers. Those numbers against Exca are wholly underwhelming, it can only be worse if something neutral or resistant shows up.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I'm gonna take this moment to nominate Mew for B+ mostly because of its utility this gen. Mew has, along with every other move, the newly buffed defog: one of the few defoggers not weak to Stealth Rocks. Mew's base 100 speed puts it in a very crowded tier but it is very fast for bulky defog user or bulky utility and 100/100/100 defenses are good as well. Mew boasts all the best utility moves it can spin hazards, set up stealth rock, cleric statuses, burn, while Mew cannot do all of these on the same set the mere fact that it has access to all these moves makes potential counters wary especially the will-o-wisp. Uninvested base 100 attacks hit pretty hard as well.

Unfortunately Mew's set-up sets are poor because it has to give up coverage for SD/NP + rock polish or rely on univested to outspeed mons above 100 speed but as Mewtility becomes more popular these sets will become more viable as surprise sets.

While pretty much all of mew's sets are outclassed by other mons Mew's sheer unpredictability can make it good at using these sets because there isn't really mew counter (well except U-Turn genesect I guess) until you know what set the Mew is running.

I'm not an expert on Mew so I would love to hear someone else's view, but I feel he deserves to be mentioned at B+ because he's really flying under the radar this gen despite his shiny new buffed Defog and his overall unpredictability.

Mew's niche in this metagame is being the only Pokemon who's not affected by SR Supereffectively and not weak to the dominant offensive typings in the meta (Empoleon). However, when just comparing Defog users, Latias outperforms him. Latias is substantially stronger and glues well with many different playstyles, from Semi-Stall to Bulky Offense. Furthermore, he can utilize Healing Wish, which is really good for recycling MegaEvos and other offensive breakers/sweepers on a team.

But as you said before, Mew has immense movepool diversity, and that allows him to be hard to counter. Both Physical variants and Special variants require different checks to take him out (much like MLuke to some degree). Factor in its Utility set, and you get something that has a moveset no one knows until it attacks (or set up). From this, I would definitely say Mew is B rank.

Read more. Do explain why Blissey outclasses Chansey entirely, aside from using Knock Off as an argument. Because that's not a solid argument, as we've mentioned the last few pages.
The answer is simple: the only thing Blissey does better is the option to have leftovers and Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Tbolt. But in the face of inferior bulk, I don't think that's worth it.

It also passes bigger Wishes (357 HP wishes as opposed to 352 HP wishes), though the difference is extremely negligible.

Also, to anyone talking about Flamethrower on Ferrothorn, Blissey's Flamethrower 2HKOs non-AssVest Scizor on the switch, which is the reason anyone runs Flamethrower on Fatman.

 

[Chou Toshio]

C honestly sounds like a good spot for Chansey (and even Blissey) in my book-- they just don't accomplish much. The meta's best Special attackers just don't give a shit about them-- except Manaphy I guess.

Thundurus-I (T): Hammer Arm is getting more and more popular for TTar, and Focus Blast still does a lot to both. Taunt presents them with big problems
Landorus-I: Could potentially be physical and destroy them, but even Sheer Force LO Focus Blast 2HKO's both
Special Lucario: lol
Genesect: It just U-turns out, doing massive damage if at +1. There's always the chance it has Gear Shift too.
Deoxys-S: When was the last time you saw an offensive one WITHOUT Superpower?
Manaphy: Blissey/Chansey can counter Manaphy.

Also, I could run Clefable to do everything Blissey/Chansey do better. That's right, I just said Clefable outclasses Blissey/Chansey, lol-- never thought I'd see the day, but there it is.



Also I'd support Mew for B. B+ is a bit much (crappy typing and limited raw offensive/defensive abilities), but the sheer expanse of Mew's options can definitely make it a nuisance. Kind of like Deo-S but much more annoying for defensive teams to handle due to lack of sheer power to smash through Mew.

 

[RufflesPro]

Not all users of Knock off screw Blissey AND Chansey.
I can name a few

Tangrowth
Mandibuzz
Mixed Zoroark
Tauntless Sableye
Tentacreul

I have seen these few pokemons a lot in the game, but your point stands, MOST knock off users screw Blissey and Chansey.

Also people are not acknowledging the importance of Leftovers. Leftovers means you are taking hazards better, it also means that the turn you use Protect to Toxi-stall or heal through Wish, means you are gaining 6.25% percent of your health back, and that's a lot in blissey's case. Leftovers means you have better chance of surviving, Leftovers means that when the opponent is switching you gain 6.25% of your health back.
However, Chansey takes hit MUCH better, and can do some stuff better than Blissey, like Counter for example, and Soft-Boiled means you are gaining HP that carries a lot of Def/SpD, Chansey is slower though, and while that doesn't matter in most cases, it sometimes does a lot. I think passing 5 HP less isn't extremely irrelevant and most pokemons tha

I think Chansey fits good in B, but is it me or is there no ranking for Blissey? I definitely do think Blissey should get B too, as they have almost the same niche but using different means, IMO, both are good.

 

[blaZofgold]

Aegislash can't OHKO Latios with a Shadow Sneak (though it comes damn close). Did you mean Shadow Ball?
For physical sets:
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-299 (83.4 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For Special/Mixed Sets:
100 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 205-244 (67.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 382-452 (126.4 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EDIT: Also, don't nominate a pokemon for ranking if you don't have a good reason for it. Provide arguments as to why Vivillon should even be mentioned on this OU thread.

My bad, Aegislash can OHKO with Rocks.

Why Vivillon could viably be in OU: Access to Compoundeyes, Sleep Powder, Hurricane, and Quiver Dance, and above-average stats for a special Bug-type. She can come in and reliably sleep a Pokemon with 93% accuracy. Hurricane's accuracy get's boosted to 91% as well. Quiver Dance is a great boosting move. +2/2 Vivillon can reliably sweep entire teams. And nothing is more embarrassing than seeing your team taken apart by a cute little butterfly.

 

[UnEarthly Monk]

Can someone explain the blacklisted thing? Does that mean its up for debate?

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Can someone explain the blacklisted thing? Does that mean its up for debate?

The opposite of that.

 

[UnEarthly Monk]

The opposite of that.

???

 

[Magcargo]

???

It means that the pokemon should not be discussed under any circumstances.

 

[Subject 18]

Those Pokemon are forbidden from being nominated for a ranking.

 

[UnEarthly Monk]

Thanks for clarifying. I should have figured as much looking at who was blacklisted XD

 

[DiscoDucky]

I was going through the Analysis list and apparently Weezing's slated to get an OU analysis, so I guess I'm going to nomnomnom Weezing.

Weezing, surprisingly, is a pretty good Pokemon in the metagame right now. Instead of writing thesis papers about it, I'm going to just bullet-point stuff.

Pros

• Really good physical bulk
• Poison typing is pretty anti-meta right now (resists Fighting (MLuke, Conk, etc.) and Bug (Gene, Sciz, MPinz).Levitate makes it immune to one of its two biggest weaknesses (also most relevant weakness), which is bomb-ass
  
• Haze counters boosting sweepers.
  
• Destiny Bond makes sure that no one wants to 2HKO Weezing
  
• Will-O-Wisp nails switch-ins with status
  
• Not dead weight on offensive teams. Access to Flamethrower/Fire Blast to nail MLuke/Bugs. Memento keeps offensive momentum
• Black Sludge
  
• Smogon's flagship bitch times 2

Cons

• Semi-reliable recovery in the form of Pain Split
• 4MSS. Usually it'll be just running Pain Split/STAB or Fire-Move/D-Bondage or Memento or Haze or Will-o-Wisp
  
• Bad Special bulk
• Excadrill shits in its cereal for breakfast
• Poison's still a bad offensive typing
• Mega-Medicham exists
• Slower than every single relevant offensive threat bar Conkeldurr

Verdict: B/C+
Summary: Even though it's pretty bulky offensively, the lack of recovery limits the number of times it can sit in on a Pokemon. Super-crap Special bulk allows for the tier's prime Special sweepers to force it to switch out.

 

[Ropeburn]

I'd like to nominate Politoed for B rank. While it was devastating to the little guy when he lost perma-weather, I still feel that between his ability and his solid stats, he functions well as a Choice Specs wallbreaker, as well as a fantastic rain supporter. With the unban of Swift Swim+ Drizzle, Kingdra, Kabutops and other pokemon become downright deadly and can easily put a dent in teams.

The combination of team support it provides is still very strong and is still very powerful.

 

[MKL122788]

???

He means that blacklisted have been debated and determined to not be OU-ranking viable...I basically call it all the people already deemed an "F"...