Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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I really just would never use this thing. It's frail, somewhat average in terms of horsepower, and like I mentioned, it just finds itself outclassed by Gengar as a stallbreaker, and by Mega Heracross as a wallbreaker.
There's a few issues with this. First, Infernape has several niches over Mega Wallbreakers. It's the only one that beats Doublade outside of Char-Y, which is pretty huge considering Doublade is the only thing holding stall together at this point. Mega Heracross can't set-up SD until Doublade is out of the picture, which in combination with Gliscor makes it hard for Hera to get it's job done. Second, it comes without the opportunity cost of using a Mega Stone. Using Infernape as your wallbreaker allows you to use Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard-X. If you are comparing it to a wallbreaker, it should be compared to the Kyu-B and other B and C rank wallbreakers. It compares much better to those than it does the Mega wallbreakers. Also, saying a C+ ranked mon should drop compared to an A+ mon is pretty shit logic. Of course it's not as good as Mega Hera, we aren't talking about Ape the A rank. Next, Inferape's wallbreaker set runs just enough speed to outspeed base 102s. So it's significantly faster than Mega Hera, it doesn't have to deal with the speed ties with base 100's like the other three Megas, and it also outspeeds Garchomp and Lando-I. It also doesn't require a turn of set-up, unlike some other wallbreakers.
Infernape also loses to a lot, if not all top threats in OU, such as pretty much everything in the S and A+ rank bar Scizor. It does have a niche in OU though as being able to counter Scizor fucking hard
No. It wins against:
  • Bisharp
  • Clefable, Fire Blast 2HKOs if physically defensive
  • WoW Zard-X is 2HKOed on the switch by CC
  • Landorus-I
  • Heatran
  • Mega Venu, 2HKOed after Rocks
  • Mega Gard, Fire Blast 2HKOs on the switch
  • Garchomp without a Choice Scarf
  • Stallbreaker Mew
  • Physcial D Rotom-W, CC 2HKOs
  • Gliscor
  • Ferrothorn
  • Any Mega or non-Mega Tyranitar
  • Slowbro
  • Mamoswine
  • Mega Heracross
It notion that it doesn't win against "a lot, if not all top threats in OU, such as pretty much everything in S and A+" is completely unfounded. Yeah, it doesn't fuck up and OHKO everything in the A and S ranks, but it's not deadweight either. A lot of things in general have issues switching into CC and Fire Blast, even something that can take a special attack like Mega Gard is 2HKOed by Fire Blast.
and is able to pull off a Endeavor SR with Mach Punch set that can turn the game 5-5 at the very beginning (that is pretty situational, but w/e), which is why I wouldn't ask for it to be lower, not to mention its good support moves such as Encore and U-Turn.
If you think the reason it is ranked where it is has anything to do with Endeavor-Mach Punch, the lead set or things like Encore and U-turn, you really have no idea what you are talking about. That's like saying we should rank Azelf for it's Nasty Plot set, or Azu based on it's Drum set.

Infernape isn't amazing, but it's not "aggressively mediocre." You make it pretty clear that you have never used it. It beats everything on stall, including Slowbro and Gliscor (who seem to wall it/give it trouble). It's also a wallbreaker that beats Doublade, which is a pretty huge niche. It doesn't require a Mega slot to use. It's fast enough to not have to worry about speed ties with the base 100 speed crowd. It doesn't require a turn to set-up, and you can use Nasty Plot over HP Ice or Grass Knot for more immediate power. Infernape is fine in C+.
 

This guy is actually really interesting. It's hard for me to actually land firmly on how I feel he should be ranked, because at the end of the day, he can be amazing or terrible, all depending on how creatively you are able to play him. Infernape has a ridiculous amount of potential, and a huge movepool to play with. He can taunt, he can SR, he can attack from both sides of the spectrum, he can boost with NP, he's got U-Turn, he has two different STAB priority moves from both sides of the spectrum, he has a ton of coverage moves available on both sides of the spectrum, and he has an ability which can power up some of it's most important coverage AND one of his STAB priority moves. Basically, he is a jack of all trades, and a master of... a few. He's got a lot going for him with a decent speed tier which can outspeed a lot of his would be checks/counters as long as they're not scarfed (looking at you, garchomp), and can run many different items effectively depending on his set and your needs, including but not limited to: life orb, focus sash, choice band, choice scarf, or choice specs. But it seems for every time you are able to use infernape creatively and effectively, there's another time where it fails to do anything at all and just gets KOd like it wasn't even there. The main thing I've noticed both in playing with and against infernape, is that it is one of the most situational pokemon around. It's frail, which means if it's outpredicted it's done, and it's moves can often fall a little short in power at just the wrong times. But even so, his versatility is nearly unmatched, so it's often hard to predict him, as there's really no telling what he's going to be doing in any given match.

So basically, Infernape is only as good as the player using him. He has all the tools he needs to be effective, but only if he's running the right set and used at the right time. This makes it hard for me to come to a conclusion of where he should be ranked, as his viability is completely subjective, especially if you consider reliability a factor. Occasionally he could be amazing, taking out 3-4 pokemon in a row, while other times he could be set-up bait that costs you a match.

Really, it's all going to come down to whether we want to rank him depending on his potential, in which case, I'd lobby for him to rise even as high as B/B+, or if we want to rank him based on what his average performance will be, in which case we should just keep him exactly where he is. My personal conclusion is that he's definitely got what it takes to stay at C+ either way, as he can definitely bring a lot to a match, and depending on how loose we want to get with our standards as far as reliability goes, he could even stand to rise a few ranks.
 
Conkeldurr shouldn't drop imo. While Conkeldurr is weak to many threats like Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Lati@s, Azumarill, Clefable, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-I, Mega Gardevoir,... it still is a solid 'mon to be honest. The ability to come in on stallbreaker Mew with ease is fascinating only being shared with Mega Absol and Mega Charizard formes, allowing it to get a Guts boost with . In addition, Conkeldurr is a huge pain for Sand Offense as it can Drain Punch Tyranitar and Ice Punch Landorus-T, but Sand Offense teams resort to things like Mew and Rotom-W to beat Excadrill's checks and counters so it can safely 2HKO X Burned 'mon. Conkeldurr also gets a free switch in on Chansey and most 'mons hate taking a Toxic. And about the Fairy-type discussion, if you hit the upper ladder and see a Conkeldurr, you can assume Poison Jab Conkeldurr is a thing. Poison Jab nails Fairy- switch ins so they are not safe. Clefable is 2HKOed and Mega Gardevoir is OHKOed after SR iirc. A healthy Conkeldurr can tank some really powerful hits like +1 Waterfall from MDos, MCross Close Combat, and Garchomp's Outrage and OHKO them with a combo of DPunch + MPunch/Ice Punch if not straight out OHKO with aforementioned moves. Conkeldurr faces competition and its bulk and longevity is hard pressed in this extremely offensive metagame, but it has some defining trait that make it B- rank worthy. It should stay imo.

Also, Empoleon moving to B- is not a bad idea. It checks a nice amount of the metagame and is a Defog user that beats Heatran! That is a nice niche. It checks Greninja and Latios nicely and the Specs set hits really hard and gets an ample amount of opportunities to wreck havoc due to its great typing and can beat CM Clefable with Flash Cannon. Ground weakness sucks but it is pretty much the only viable (and good) defensive defogger in the metagame along with Mandibuzz and like Mega Scizor, but I'm not wasting my mega slot or having to take Sr damage to Defog, so I would go with Empoleon.

That's all I guess
 
...
Volcarona to C-
Alomomola to B
Volcarona's being dropped to C- Rank?

Nobody likes me anymore :(

I love you moth, but you are so hard to use in this meta. Talonflame and Azumarill are everywhere, which can stop you cold, and you are mostly dependent on match-up in order to get down a secure sweep. If only you had Tinted Lens, you could run Modest Specs and OHKO Keldeo with Fire Blast, and Garchomp after Stealth Rock. Sadly, Volcarona's flaws are too apparent for it. Sure, you could run Hidden Power Rock to lure in Talonflame and KO it, but you are still stopped cold by Azumarill. Volcarona for C-.

Drop Alomomola please. While it is really hard to wear down, it is really passive and can be set up on by any bulky Substitute user. Keldeo and Gyarados in particular can set up a Substitute in and get in multiple Calm Mind / Dragon Dance boosts before their Substitutes even break, which is not a good sign for a Pokemon that is supposed to wall these type of Pokemon. The only Pokemon it takes on reliably is Terrakion, but even then, Scald cannot even do over 40% without investment, which just shows how weak Alomomola is. Alomomola for B Rank.

EDIT:

Conkeldurr shouldn't drop imo. While Conkeldurr is weak to many threats like Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Lati@s, Azumarill, Clefable, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-I, Mega Gardevoir,... it still is a solid 'mon to be honest. The ability to come in on stallbreaker Mew with ease is fascinating only being shared with Mega Absol and Mega Charizard formes, allowing it to get a Guts boost with . In addition, Conkeldurr is a huge pain for Sand Offense as it can Drain Punch Tyranitar and Ice Punch Landorus-T, but Sand Offense teams resort to things like Mew and Rotom-W to beat Excadrill's checks and counters so it can safely 2HKO X Burned 'mon. Conkeldurr also gets a free switch in on Chansey and most 'mons hate taking a Toxic. And about the Fairy-type discussion, if you hit the upper ladder and see a Conkeldurr, you can assume Poison Jab Conkeldurr is a thing. Poison Jab nails Fairy- switch ins so they are not safe. Clefable is 2HKOed and Mega Gardevoir is OHKOed after SR iirc. A healthy Conkeldurr can tank some really powerful hits like +1 Waterfall from MDos, MCross Close Combat, and Garchomp's Outrage and OHKO them with a combo of DPunch + MPunch/Ice Punch if not straight out OHKO with aforementioned moves. Conkeldurr faces competition and its bulk and longevity is hard pressed in this extremely offensive metagame, but it has some defining trait that make it B- rank worthy. It should stay imo.

Also, Empoleon moving to B- is not a bad idea. It checks a nice amount of the metagame and is a Defog user that beats Heatran! That is a nice niche. It checks Greninja and Latios nicely and the Specs set hits really hard and gets an ample amount of opportunities to wreck havoc due to its great typing and can beat CM Clefable with Flash Cannon. Ground weakness sucks but it is pretty much the only viable (and good) defensive defogger in the metagame along with Mandibuzz and like Mega Scizor, but I'm not wasting my mega slot or having to take Sr damage to Defog, so I would go with Empoleon.

That's all I guess
Conkeldurr cannot do squat to Mega Heracross; it resists Conkeldurr's Fighting STAB, can easily take an Ice Punch and Poison Jab, and can do at least 76% damage with Close Combat assuming MegaCross is Jolly Nature, like most are right now (Adamant cannot OHKO, but comes really close).
 
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Infernape shouldn't demote at all. As Celticpride034 and Flamer has said (albiet the latter user in a previous discussion about Infernape), Mixed Infernape 6-0's stall teams that often even Pokemon like Keldeo and Mega Heracross can't guarantee, thanks to things like Slowbro, Amoonguss, and Duoblade being common on stall teams, as well as things such as Gliscor (both varients) in which Infernape has no troubles 2HKOing with Fire Blast on the switch in and even OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. His ability to run as an effective suicide lead in a meta where there aren't many options for suicide leads in HO is pretty nifty, too. (Garchomp, Mamoswine, and Azelf are really the only other leads that I have seen do well with HO teams) The rest I would want to say can really just be mentioned in a previous post I made back when Infernape was first discussed in this thread in which I actually was agreeing with moving him to B-. So I'll just leave this here.
I would love for this to happen. I really have used this thing a lot and have managed to get to the mid 1800s with Infernape even post Aegislash meta. Using a spread of 168 Atk / 132 SpA / 208 Spe, I've found Infernape to be extremely beneficial to stall cores while still being good vs offensive teams. Using this spread, Infernape outspeeds Garchomp (which, besides Manectric pre mega evolution, is the fastest Pokemon you would need to outspeed anyways, as generally you would switch out anyways vs a Keldeo/Terrakion if Infernape is important to you) and can allow Infernape to do things such as CLEAN 2hko Slowbro after Stealth Rocks, beat out Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock for a better chance, and the remaining stall Pokemon are unable to really beat Infernape. Sure, stall isn't a common meta, but one thing I find really nice is that Infernape still does well vs offense. Even the Lati@s still get chipped down pretty badly by CC, and most other Pokemon common on HO can't really take its coverage well. Mach Punch really lets Infernape do well in Offense too, as it gives Infernape access to priority which can do things such as revenge kill Greninja, a huge threat on offensive teams, Bisharp after +2/+4, (Keldeo can't really do this reliably as it takes around 70% from even +2) Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados at around 60%, and Excadrill, doing a minimum of 67%. Even though Mega Heracross can potentially do the latter 3, I find Mixed Infernape to be useful on HO teams that can't utilize Mega Heracross. As Infernape beats out a lot of stall while still being good on offense while not taking up a mega slot.
Relevant calcs.
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 156-187 (42.8 - 51.3%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-268 (79 - 93.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (After LO this percentage to OHKO greatly increases)
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 244-291 (67.5 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This was just bringing up the Mixed set, I haven't even mentioned any of its other sets, which also do well and shows Infernape's versatility. In particular the lead set, which does a good job of being a glue/suicide lead.
Also, Infernape is guaranteed to get me an A in bio, so it should definitely move up.
What is an example of a niche? "Infernape's ability to 6-0 common stall teams while not taking up a mega slot and still being decent versus offense. Also looks way cooler than Keldeo."

2ez
 
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alexwolf

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My point about "dont want to switch in" is that alot of things, even resists, get 2hkoed by Sacred Fire or a coverage move and almost everything else is crippled by burn. Latios, Latias, Keldeo can only switch in once and stuff like Slowbro, Quagsire etc are hurt by the high burn chance. Gliscor and Suicune are also pretty good switch ins I guess though Gliscor risks the 2hko when switching into SR. Its pretty much the same thing as with Keldeos Scald. There are lots of things that can switch into it but most of them are hurt by burns in one way or the other, just that Sacred Fire has both, higher base power and higher burn chance. Physical attackers obviously dont want to come in on him at all, special attackers with fire resist usually can take 1 hit at most and defensive mons are worn down by the burn making it easier to break them with team mates.

Having to use Adamant isnt realy a problem considering that most base 100 mons dont run + speed natures anyway because it doesnt have much benefit outside of speed ties and outspeeding Jolly Exca (which isnt used that much). Its true that he cant come in that often against offensive teams, but the same is true the other way around, they dont like switching into him either. You also have the option of keeping Entei alive until lategame against such teams where CB Extremspeed can clean up pretty well once everything is weakend. Yeah there are other things with Extremespeed as well like Dragonite but he cant wallbreak the way Entei does. Well he can once Steel and Fairytypes are gone but thats a big if. And against defensive teams there are plenty of switch in opportunitys. Venu, Scizor, Ferro, Clefable, Heatran, Celebi, Jirachi, Skarm all of them are good opportunitys to bring him in.

I honestly dont understand how you can say he is not on par with the other B- mons, imo he is far better than most of them and even better than things in the higher B ranks like Scizor or Mandibuzz. As a physical fire type wallbreaker he is easily on par with Tini, though i guess it would be ok to have him a rank below tini given that he isnt as flexible having basicly just one set only with different items. But Tini in B+ and Entei in C+ doesnt fit at all imo, Tini isnt that much better.
Burn is just a nuisance to Pokemon such as Slowbro and Quagsire, so it's really not a big deal. Latios, Latias, and Keldeo are 2HKOed? That's the problem, they have the chance to retaliate, and Entei is hardly pressed to find switch in chances, thanks to lack of resistances and SR weakness. There are many effective ways to clean up late-game, and Entei's CB ES is pretty down on that list, with CB Dragonite, Hawlucha, Talonflame, SD Mega Scizor, Swift Swim users, and Excadrill all being much better cleaners against offensive teams. And CB Dragonite can't wallbreak? He certainly can wallbreak better than Entei, which is much easier to deal with for both offensive and defensive teams.

Pure offensive Pokemon in B-, such as Weavile and Crawdaunt, are much more effective and have way less competition in their roles than Entei, and Entei being on par with Victini offensively is wrong on so many levels i don't know where to start from, and will leave it alone because it will prolly derail our discussion.

All in all, Entei is pretty outclassed in whatever it does, be it wallbreaking, revenge killing, or late game cleaning, but Sacred Fire's burn chance gives it a pretty spammable move to use when Heatran is not present, which is good enough for C+ but nothing more.

To better see how much Entei is outclassed, you have to see when would you consider Entei for a spot on your team. There are better options for cleaners, there priority users, and wallbreakers. Hell, there are better options for doing all three together in one teamslot. Now, if you want a mix of all of those traits that can also fuck up Steel-types and soft check Fairy-types, Entei might be a decent choice for your team, but that's a pretty specific set of criteria that Entei fulfills, which make it more of a C rank than B Pokemon in my eyes.

Vertex, for the last time, Conk is not a good answer to Mew at all, unless you are expecting your opponent to be an idiot. Mew should wait until he gets his item removed before burning Conk, and then he can slowly KO Conk with burn damage by spamming Roost while Conkeldurr does 5% net damage on average every turn with Knock Off.
 
Alexwolf mentioned Seismitoad for C / C- Rank, but I think D Rank is fine for it with the niche you are proposing (Water Absorb + Stealth Rock). Stealth Rock is the ONLY reason you would use it over Gastrodon, otherwise Gastrodon is better because it has access to Recover. (Swift Swim Seismitoad is ridiculously weak, let's not talk about that, it cannot even 3HKO Ferrothorn in the rain after Stealth Rock). So really, I think Seismitoad has only one niche, otherwise it is completely outclassed, and I think it should stay in D Rank.
 
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Burn is just a nuisance to Pokemon such as Slowbro and Quagsire, so it's really not a big deal. Latios, Latias, and Keldeo are 2HKOed? That's the problem, they have the chance to retaliate, and Entei is hardly pressed to find switch in chances, thanks to lack of resistances and SR weakness. There are many effective ways to clean up late-game, and Entei's CB ES is pretty down on that list, with CB Dragonite, Hawlucha, Talonflame, SD Mega Scizor, Swift Swim users, and Excadrill all being much better cleaners against offensive teams. And CB Dragonite can't wallbreak? He certainly can wallbreak better than Entei, which is much easier to deal with for both offensive and defensive teams.

Pure offensive Pokemon in B-, such as Weavile and Crawdaunt, are much more effective and have way less competition in their roles than Entei, and Entei being on par with Victini offensively is wrong on so many levels i don't know where to start from, and will leave it alone because it will prolly derail our discussion.

All in all, Entei is pretty outclassed in whatever it does, be it wallbreaking, revenge killing, or late game cleaning, but Sacred Fire's burn chance gives it a pretty spammable move to use when Heatran is not present, which is good enough for C+ but nothing more.

To better see how much Entei is outclassed, you have to see when would you consider Entei for a spot on your team. There are better options for cleaners, there priority users, and wallbreakers. Hell, there are better options for doing all three together in one teamslot. Now, if you want a mix of all of those traits that can also fuck up Steel-types and soft check Fairy-types, Entei might be a decent choice for your team, but that's a pretty specific set of criteria that Entei fulfills, which make it more of a C rank than B Pokemon in my eyes.

Vertex, for the last time, Conk is not a good answer to Mew at all, unless you are expecting your opponent to be an idiot. Mew should wait until he gets his item removed before burning Conk, and then he can slowly KO Conk with burn damage by spamming Roost while Conkeldurr does 5% net damage on average every turn with Knock Off.
The only move on Dnite thats powerful enough to be used for wallbreaking is Outrage, your not going to break anything with EQ or Firepunch, hopefully i dont have to explain why having to lock yourself into Outrage is far worse than just clicking Sacred Fire and watch something die/burn? Talonflame has an even bigger SR weakness, Swift swimmers and Exca can only clean lategame with weather support and Hawlucha... well i dont wanna talk about that, will just derail the thread.
The only one of them that is comparable to Entei is Dnite who is SR weak as well, due to multiscale even worse, cant wallbreak as well with its reliance on Outrage and, imo thats the biggest point, is 4 x weak to Ice. Considering how many good mons in the meta have an Ice weakness you usually have to to dismiss some of them in favour of Dnite or stack ice weaks to no end. Lando-T and Latis are staples on most teams, thats already 2 ice weaks, one of them 4x. That fact alone makes Entei far more appealing compared to Dnite, at least to me.

What makes Weavile or Crawdaunt more effective? Weavile is frail as fuck, ohkoed by basicly everything and not even that powerful its just a bad physical version of Greninja. Crawdaunt hits hard but is frail and slow as hell and therefore has a very hard time coming in and setting up. Entei just needs a chance to come in and can start spamming his stab move to nuke things.

I would pick Entei if i am looking for a wallbreaker who has some value against offensive teams as well and is not a Mega. There isnt much competition in that category, its basicly just Lando-I, Dnite and probably Keldeo.

theV8man

Even if i were to agree that Dragonite outclasses Entei in everything, we re not discussing Entei to move up to A, its not even about moving him to B which would still be a whole rank below Dnite, its about moving him to C+.
 
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An example of a Pokemon that totally outclasses Entei in all of its roles is Dragonite. It has a stronger Extremespeed and is much bulkier/has better defensive typing letting it stay in on way more stuff. The only downside to using Dragonite is that Outrage isn't as spammable as Sacred Fire, but it's much more powerful. Personally, I don't see why I'd want to use Entei over Dragonite, so I don't advocate it rising. I also want to say that Crawdaunt is more useful because it has frankly zero switch ins in OU, and it doesn't need to stay locked into a move or set up to wreck. Its Aqua Jet is also more useful in this meta for one-shotting Exca, Lando-I, and more.
 
Also, saying a C+ ranked mon should drop compared to an A+ mon is pretty shit logic. Of course it's not as good as Mega Hera, we aren't talking about Ape the A rank. Next, Inferape's wallbreaker set runs just enough speed to outspeed base 102s. So it's significantly faster than Mega Hera, it doesn't have to deal with the speed ties with base 100's like the other three Megas, and it also outspeeds Garchomp and Lando-I. It also doesn't require a turn of set-up, unlike some other wallbreakers.
I never said that I was comparing the two, I was saying that Mega Heracross, for the most part, that outclasses it. There's a difference. I suggest you learn it.

Yes, Infernape is considerably faster and beats Doublade, that's a good advantage, but I really can't find anything else. Do you want me to compare it Kyu-B? Because in that case, Kyu-B is still a better wallbreaker, due its higher attacking stats.

And while to an extent my statement was false, your inquiries about what can beat it are somewhat false.

  • Clefable, Fire Blast 2HKOs if physically defensive
Yes, while any other variant will swiftly 2HKO.

  • WoW Zard-X is 2HKOed on the switch by CC
1v1, Infernape loses.

  • Mega Gard, Fire Blast 2HKOs on the switch
For fuck's sake, who would switch Mega Gardevoir directly in on Infernape?

  • Stallbreaker Mew
It doesn't 'beat' stallbreaker Mew. It doesn't lose to it, either. However, Stallbreaker Mew will easily outlast Infernape.

  • Physcial D Rotom-W, CC 2HKOs
Funny, cause Hydro Pump directly OHKOs.

Specially Defensive Gliscor OHKOs with Earthquake, while LO HP Ice (modest) will almost never OHKO.

  • Any Mega or non-Mega Tyranitar
ScarfTar, SashTar

Honestly, Infernape 2HKOs at best, while Slowbro can deal major damage and abuse Regenerator.

  • Mamoswine
Any Mamoswine carries a Focus Sash, and they'll OHKO with Earthquake.

If you think the reason it is ranked where it is has anything to do with Endeavor-Mach Punch, the lead set or things like Encore and U-turn, you really have no idea what you are talking about. That's like saying we should rank Azelf for it's Nasty Plot set, or Azu based on it's Drum set.
I never said that's why it was ranked, I was saying that it was a nice bonus or cool USABLE set, that's actually planned to be FIRST on the on-site analysis, which was also almost completely rejected.

Infernape isn't amazing, but it's not "aggressively mediocre." You make it pretty clear that you have never used it. It beats everything on stall, including Slowbro and Gliscor (who seem to wall it/give it trouble). It's also a wallbreaker that beats Doublade, which is a pretty huge niche. It doesn't require a Mega slot to use. It's fast enough to not have to worry about speed ties with the base 100 speed crowd. It doesn't require a turn to set-up, and you can use Nasty Plot over HP Ice or Grass Knot for more immediate power. Infernape is fine in C+.
You said it yourself, Infernape isn't amazing. Did I ever say it was bad? Nope. I said it was mediocre, because it's not amazing. It's aggressively mediocre, which means that it just happens to be very mediocre. I've used Infernape quite a bit, and to no surprise, it wasn't very good. I did overlook its ability to beat Doublade, you're right on that, but if I want a non-mega wallbreaker, I'll always find myself using Kyu-B, who does a much better job going mixed than Infernape, as well as packing more power.

edit: apparently reading this I sounded like a prick, I'm just trying to tell why Infernape finds itself outclassed a lot :/

edit edit: kyu-b also hits doublade p. hard with epower
 
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Srn

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Down to C+

Well, the time has come, where we realize that Conkeldurr is just not that great of a Pokemon anymore. Its most viable set, Assault Vest, hits pretty piss weak, and any other set is just bad due to it being prone to attacks or not having time to set up. Conkeldurr's good traits, Drain Punch and Mach Punch + the elemental punches, are having more trouble finding times when they're actually useful, unfortunately. Conkeldurr is just way to damn slow for such as fast metagame, and its bulk is not put to great use anymore with the rise of common things such as Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir. Conkeldurr is really just not able to catch up anymore to the new trends that have been going on. I would never use this over Mega Heracross actually (and eh, to an extent, Mega Medicham), who hits much harder, is also rather bulky, and actually only got better.



Down to C

Ugh, this thing is aggressively mediocre. Like really, really mediocre. If mediocre was a person, it would be the fucking shit out of me. Like Infernape by itself, is actually not so bad. But the thing is, there are just so many better stallbreakers / wallbreakers in the whole tier that Infernape just doesn't find itself to be much of an option anymore. I really just would never use this thing. It's frail, somewhat average in terms of horsepower, and like I mentioned, it just finds itself outclassed by Gengar as a stallbreaker, and by Mega Heracross as a wallbreaker. Infernape also loses to a lot, if not all top threats in OU, such as pretty much everything in the S and A+ rank bar Scizor. It does have a niche in OU though as being able to counter Scizor fucking hard and is able to pull off a Endeavor SR with Mach Punch set that can turn the game 5-5 at the very beginning (that is pretty situational, but w/e), which is why I wouldn't ask for it to be lower, not to mention its good support moves such as Encore and U-Turn. Otherwise, put it in C.



Move to C+

The nerf to permanent weather was obviously shitty for Toxicroak, but rain offense is still at a high. Toxicroak can still make use of opposing rain with Dry Skin, and usually full-out counter opposing rain teams, which usually rely on their Water-type STABs. Toxicroak's new toy in Gunk Shot is fucking powerful, and the only reason you wouldn't move Toxicroak any higher than C+ is its really awkward Speed stat, as well as its general frailty. Not much to say here, move to C+.



Keep in C

Mega Absol is really not a bad, or better said terrible (it's not great), Pokemon. Most of its flaws, frailty, bad Speed priority mega evolving, extremely susceptible to priority, are all pretty major, which is why it is in the sad myriad of Pokemon in the C rank. However, C- rank is literally almost saying that it's pretty bad but to an extent usable. Absol is mediocre compared to other powerful Pokemon, but it does do a not bad job of wallbreaking. Mega Absol also has that really, really nice ability in Magic Bounce, and to be quite realistic, outside of the lower ladder players who use Dual Screens Espeon and Baton Pass Espeon, Mega Absol is actually not a bad user of it, as it's immune to WILL-O-WISP, entry hazards are bounced back, and walls can't safely use Toxic. It is actually a pretty powerful user of Magic Bounce, and I do find it to have a solid role in the metagame, albeit not huge. Keep in C.




Move to C-

Yes, it can potentially take a full 75% damage from Stealth Rock and three layers of spikes. Yes, it is susceptible to most priority. And finally, yes, it loses to basically every popular playstyle in OU right now, also know as BirdSpam and Sand Offense. So why on earth would I ask to move this thing to C-? Well, for starters, it is pretty fucking powerful when it sets up Quiver Dance. Basically, after two quiver dances, nothing can really stand in the way of it. Second, as much as its priority weakness stings, it has that awesome ability Flame Body, which makes Pokemon such as Mega Pinsir very reluctant to attack it. Of course, it still is very vulnerable physically, and both Charizard X and Talonflame check it really easily. I would actually move it to C-, albeit barely.



Move to JUST C-

I actually have never used Seismitoad as a rain offender in OU, and I always actually used it as a bulky Stealth Rock setter. But now that rain teams, once again, are at a rise, Seismitoad's immunity to Water-type attacks is just great, and Seismitoad's Ground-typing lets it fuck with Electric-types who like to use Thunder. Seismitoad also can make use of the rain itself with Swift Swim, and also is not stopped by Electric-types as well. Unfortunately, Seismitoad can't get past most Grass-types without 2HKOing them before getting OHKOed, and is also pretty piss weak against Special walls, all of which are actually pretty common, which stops me from moving Seismitoad just any further. The ability to stop opposing rain teams in their tracks of course, should not be overlooked. Generally, Seismitoad + Rain = profit :pimp:. Move to C-.


i like the back sprite
Move to B

Lucario does have a lot of traits that stop it from being king of the crop, such as its crappy Speed, and frailty that lets it faint to a burmy, but its high Attack stat as well access to Extreme Speed lets it clean up late-game, as well as serve as a wallbreaker to Pokemon such as Chansey and Alomomola. Lucario's also good priority attack in Bullet Punch lets it hit Rock-types for good damage as well. In general, Extreme Speed is a scary move, and Lucario makes sure that it can abuse it to its full potential. Not to mention, STAB Close Combat is pretty much a death wish after a Swords Dance. Move to B.



Drop to B

I'm sure everyone fucking hates one of these things, who is only breakable but really powerful attacks. However, while it is a hell of a cleric and wish passer, it is very easy to play around. Any status (toxic) will cripple it, and Taunt is fucking just gg to it. It should absolutely not drop anymore than B, but then again, you can really just play around with it, since it can't do anything other than what it only really can do. Drop to B.

I have no opinion on Mega Tyranitar :toast:. This was definitely a lot, and I appreciate it if you read it (and not did that shitty thing most people do here when they look at a sentence and nitpick).:heart:
Volcarona's being dropped to C- Rank?

Nobody likes me anymore :(

I love you moth, but you are so hard to use in this meta. Talonflame and Azumarill are everywhere, which can stop you cold, and you are mostly dependent on match-up in order to get down a secure sweep. If only you had Tinted Lens, you could run Modest Specs and OHKO Keldeo with Fire Blast, and Garchomp after Stealth Rock. Sadly, Volcarona's flaws are too apparent for it. Sure, you could run Hidden Power Rock to lure in Talonflame and KO it, but you are still stopped cold by Azumarill. Volcarona for C-.

Drop Alomomola please. While it is really hard to wear down, it is really passive and can be set up on by any bulky Substitute user. Keldeo and Gyarados in particular can set up a Substitute in and get in multiple Calm Mind / Dragon Dance boosts before their Substitutes even break, which is not a good sign for a Pokemon that is supposed to wall these type of Pokemon. The only Pokemon it takes on reliably is Terrakion, but even then, Scald cannot even do over 40% without investment, which just shows how weak Alomomola is. Alomomola for B Rank.

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Conkeldurr cannot do squat to Mega Heracross; it resists Conkeldurr's Fighting STAB, can easily take an Ice Punch and Poison Jab, and can do at least 76% damage with Close Combat assuming MegaCross is Jolly Nature, like most are right now (Adamant cannot OHKO, but comes really close).
Yeah some nigs may think alomo shud drop to B but I personally think it should stay in B+ because of its niche. Just like starmie is the best rapid spinner in the tier and does nearly nothing else, alomo is the best wish passer in the tier and does nearly nothing else, bar none. Sure, that's all it may do, but to pivotal pokemon on stall like doublade, this wish support is downright invaluable. Seriously nothing in OU even comes close in terms of wish passing, unaware clefable has terrible bulk and his honestly better off running unaware CM to beat crocune for your stall lel.
We all know tho that its ridiculously bad taunt and sub fodder so it should never rise above B+
But the wish support it provides is just far too valuable to pass up, especially when mons like doublade are so incredibly important to stall.
 
Yeah some nigs may think alomo shud drop to B but I personally think it should stay in B+ because of its niche. Just like starmie is the best rapid spinner in the tier and does nearly nothing else, alomo is the best wish passer in the tier and does nearly nothing else, bar none. Sure, that's all it may do, but to pivotal pokemon on stall like doublade, this wish support is downright invaluable. Seriously nothing in OU even comes close in terms of wish passing, unaware clefable has terrible bulk and his honestly better off running unaware CM to beat crocune for your stall lel.
We all know tho that its ridiculously bad taunt and sub fodder so it should never rise above B+
But the wish support it provides is just far too valuable to pass up, especially when mons like doublade are so incredibly important to stall.
I would totally and completely agree with you on this, except for the fact that stall is pretty bad in this meta. Offensive teams don't use a wish passer, and balance teams would prefer clefable, because its such good glue. Stall is not a B+ playstyle in the current meta, I would put it a rank lower at B or maybe even B-

Almost every team needs a way to remove hazards, which is why starmie should be ranked higher than alomomola.
 
Yeah some nigs may think alomo shud drop to B but I personally think it should stay in B+ because of its niche. Just like starmie is the best rapid spinner in the tier and does nearly nothing else, alomo is the best wish passer in the tier and does nearly nothing else, bar none. Sure, that's all it may do, but to pivotal pokemon on stall like doublade, this wish support is downright invaluable. Seriously nothing in OU even comes close in terms of wish passing, unaware clefable has terrible bulk and his honestly better off running unaware CM to beat crocune for your stall lel.
We all know tho that its ridiculously bad taunt and sub fodder so it should never rise above B+
But the wish support it provides is just far too valuable to pass up, especially when mons like doublade are so incredibly important to stall.
Alomomola does not beat anything reliably at all because of how passive it is. While you could say Terrakion, it cannot even do 40% to it with Scald, even if it comes very close. At least Chansey, another Wish passer, can reliably beat Zard Y, Spikeless Greninja, Latios, Outrageless Kyurem-B, etc., even if it has to use Soft-Boiled quite frequently just to keep itself healthy. Alomomola has to rely on a really weak Scald to threaten anything, leaving it setup fodder for any Substitute user that resists Scald or has moderate to high bulk, whereas Chansey beats most of the Pokemon it is supposed to check with Seismic Toss and Toxic; despite how passive that might be, SToss is more reliable than a Scald coming off of base 40 Special Attack. If you really think Alomomola walls the majority of the metagame, notice how it cannot threaten most of the Pokemon it is supposed to wall without relying on a 30% chance to burn. If a Pokemon is more passive than Chansey, which is reliant on Seismic Toss + Toxic to do damage, that is not a good sign at all. Also, Starmie's purpose may only be to Rapid Spin, but at least it does that well without encouraging a lot of Pokemon to set up on it. Alomomola is perfectly fine dropping to B Rank.
 
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How the fuck are you guys thinking of dropping Nape to C? I get its not an amazing beast but its pretty darn good at its jobs, which it has a fair few. You guys act like lead chomp is our holy savour when Nape does pretty much the same thing and can cripple mons with either endeavour + mach punch or blaze boosted overheats. One of the main reasons everyone hates it is because "Keldeo does the same job", which is frankly, not true. Keldeo has to rely on spamming a Specs boosted Scald to break through the many many many counters it has as it requires the extra power on a widely resisted move without losing health turn per turn as LO + constant switching takes its toll (see Greninja), while Nape has the supreme coverage to run through resists to its STAB combo, which there are far fewer. Infernape also, as others have mentioned, runs through the counters of the Mega Wallbreakers. Doublade, Bro, Tran, Lando-T (the defensive set obv) etc all cannot handle Napes offensive prowess, not to mention it isnt dead weight against offense. This wasn't even mentioning the plenty of other sets it can run, Mixed, Scarf and Lead are a few, not to mention that nifty niche defensive set nog made a while back. Please do not be fools and drop this for some unknown reason, its not some shitmon like half you guys make it out to be, I would sooner say its B- instead of C.
 
I would like to put Charizard in S.

(Obviously not base form charizard with no mega, I mean replace Zard X's and Zard Y's ranks with general Charizard as a whole)

If that's too weird of an idea, Charizard X and Y can both be there separately, but part of why they're good is because of the other form's existence, adding to Charizard's overall versatility.

First, I think that Charizard Y is a far better wall breaker in this meta than before, mainly because stall has broken its mold to adapt to all the other wall breakers. Which means we've gone from Chansey on nearly every stall team, to stall that usually passes up Chansey for something less passive. And Chansey was the main Charizard Y counter on traditional stall teams. A lot of stall builders focus on Heracross, Medicham, Magnezone+Pinsir, and Gardevoir and when they're making their teams, only to realize they've left holes to some of the old wall breakers like the Charizards and Manaphy.

Meanwhile I can't think of anything that's gotten more popular on stall that hurts Charizard Y. Lati@s got a lot more popular, but I can turn that around as a benefit to Charizard Y as well, because they are great at providing the one main type of support Charizard needs (removing hazards). Starmie also got more popular and helps in the same way. On the opposing side, Offensive starmie loses 1v1, bulky starmie is a free switch in (Fire Blast 2HKOs even after Reflect Type, so the best Starmie can hope for is to stall a few sun turns and hope for a miss with Recover spam). Doublade is a free switch in. Celebi is almost always a free switch in. Jirachi only threatens with Paralysis, and loses 1v1 easily. Stall breaker Mew is a free switch in.

Even the trends on offensive teams are in Charizard Y's favor. Bisharp and Gengar have gotten more popular to check all the psychic types, and Charizard Y checks them easily. Magnezone loses 1v1 (unless scarf-locked into thunderbolt, but then there are other ways to play around that...and Charizard Y can even live that 75% of the time), so if it just trapped something, or is locked into Flash Cannon or Hidden Power, something is probably about to die. Scarfed Landorus-T might be able to revenge kill Charizard Y, but it's often lured out and roasted if you can bluff Char X, and also is a free switch in if it's locked into any other move, and defensive Landorus-T flat-out loses. The only trend off the top of my head that's not in Charizard Y's favor is all the Mega Manectric running around, but it came with a drop in Thundurus usage, so it sort of balances out.

Also it kind of trolls rain which feels like it's getting more popular, because it can freely switch into Politoed any time rocks aren't up, and then usually gets a kill too unless they have Mega Ampharos. Of course Politoed trolls it back by switching in on Solar Beams, so you have to play careful...

Obviously I don't need to argue why Charizard's other half should be in S, because X-Zard already is S.

We all know how part of what makes Charizard so powerful is it can buy a free turn just by existing and not being mega. Honestly its bs to say that you can tell from team structure, so unless you see a chlorophyll sweeper or something, there's really nothing wrong with sticking a charizard x onto typical charizard y cores or vice versa. Both Charizards have different counters, and can hit really hard, which means if you go to the wrong pokemon, you're either dead, or worse, charizard set up on your scouting. Since part of both Charizard's forms' effectiveness is tied to the existence of the other form, I believe they can be ranked together.
 
I would like to put Charizard in S.

(Obviously not base form charizard with no mega, I mean replace Zard X's and Zard Y's ranks with general Charizard as a whole)

If that's too weird of an idea, Charizard X and Y can both be there separately, but part of why they're good is because of the other form's existence, adding to Charizard's overall versatility.

First, I think that Charizard Y is a far better wall breaker in this meta than before, mainly because stall has broken its mold to adapt to all the other wall breakers. Which means we've gone from Chansey on nearly every stall team, to stall that usually passes up Chansey for something less passive. And Chansey was the main Charizard Y counter on traditional stall teams. A lot of stall builders focus on Heracross, Medicham, Magnezone+Pinsir, and Gardevoir and when they're making their teams, only to realize they've left holes to some of the old wall breakers like the Charizards and Manaphy.

Meanwhile I can't think of anything that's gotten more popular on stall that hurts Charizard Y. Lati@s got a lot more popular, but I can turn that around as a benefit to Charizard Y as well, because they are great at providing the one main type of support Charizard needs (removing hazards). Starmie also got more popular and helps in the same way. On the opposing side, Offensive starmie loses 1v1, bulky starmie is a free switch in (Fire Blast 2HKOs even after Reflect Type, so the best Starmie can hope for is to stall a few sun turns and hope for a miss with Recover spam). Doublade is a free switch in. Celebi is almost always a free switch in. Jirachi only threatens with Paralysis, and loses 1v1 easily. Stall breaker Mew is a free switch in.

Even the trends on offensive teams are in Charizard Y's favor. Bisharp and Gengar have gotten more popular to check all the psychic types, and Charizard Y checks them easily. Magnezone loses 1v1 (unless scarf-locked into thunderbolt, but then there are other ways to play around that...and Charizard Y can even live that 75% of the time), so if it just trapped something, or is locked into Flash Cannon or Hidden Power, something is probably about to die. Scarfed Landorus-T might be able to revenge kill Charizard Y, but it's often lured out and roasted if you can bluff Char X, and also is a free switch in if it's locked into any other move, and defensive Landorus-T flat-out loses. The only trend off the top of my head that's not in Charizard Y's favor is all the Mega Manectric running around, but it came with a drop in Thundurus usage, so it sort of balances out.

Also it kind of trolls rain which feels like it's getting more popular, because it can freely switch into Politoed any time rocks aren't up, and then usually gets a kill too unless they have Mega Ampharos. Of course Politoed trolls it back by switching in on Solar Beams, so you have to play careful...

Obviously I don't need to argue why Charizard's other half should be in S, because X-Zard already is S.

We all know how part of what makes Charizard so powerful is it can buy a free turn just by existing and not being mega. Honestly its bs to say that you can tell from team structure, so unless you see a chlorophyll sweeper or something, there's really nothing wrong with sticking a charizard x onto typical charizard y cores or vice versa. Both Charizards have different counters, and can hit really hard, which means if you go to the wrong pokemon, you're either dead, or worse, charizard set up on your scouting. Since part of both Charizard's forms' effectiveness is tied to the existence of the other form, I believe they can be ranked together.
IIRC, the different versions to completely different things, and therefore should be ranked differently. I don't blame you for trying to combine them - if they were more similar, you'd have a legit point - but with the difference between the two versions, it'd be like ranking a Genie and its therian form together (okay, not THAT bad, but still...)
 

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Alomomola does not beat anything reliably at all because of how passive it is. While you could say Terrakion, it cannot even do 40% to it with Scald, even if it comes very close. At least Chansey, another Wish passer, can reliably beat Zard Y, Spikeless Greninja, Latios, Outrageless Kyurem-B, etc., even if it has to use Soft-Boiled quite frequently just to keep itself healthy. Alomomola has to rely on a really weak Scald to threaten anything, leaving it setup fodder for any Substitute user that resists Scald or has moderate to high bulk, whereas Chansey beats most of the Pokemon it is supposed to check with Seismic Toss and Toxic; despite how passive that might be, SToss is more reliable than a Scald coming off of base 40 Special Attack. If you really think Alomomola walls the majority of the metagame, notice how it cannot threaten most of the Pokemon it is supposed to wall without relying on a 30% chance to burn. If a Pokemon is more passive than Chansey, which is reliant on Seismic Toss + Toxic to do damage, that is not a good sign at all. Also, Starmie's purpose may only be to Rapid Spin, but at least it does that well without encouraging a lot of Pokemon to set up on it. Alomomola is perfectly fine dropping to B Rank.
you realize alomo runs toxic right....
and reflect type starmie is complete set up fodder lol its even worse than alomo, at least that has room for toxic. Which btw lets you beat everything from mttar to mzardx to azu as long as they don't have sub. Besides, it takes some desperation and balls regardless to set up your zor or what not against an alomo, scald burns are rare but DO exist. It's set-up bait and pretty passive, but those are the type of teams it is supposed to fit into regardless, so this argument can really only be used to an extent.
 
you realize alomo runs toxic right....
and reflect type starmie is complete set up fodder lol its even worse than alomo, at least that has room for toxic. Which btw lets you beat everything from mttar to mzardx to azu as long as they don't have sub. Besides, it takes some desperation and balls regardless to set up your zor or what not against an alomo, scald burns are rare but DO exist. It's set-up bait and pretty passive, but those are the type of teams it is supposed to fit into regardless, so this argument can really only be used to an extent.
And you realize how passive teams are going down in overall effectiveness to begin with? Do you realize how difficult it is to run passive stall with all of the pressure against it? I would like to leave no comment on Reflect Type Starmie, I never used it, I am referring to offensive Starmie, which is a solid spinner for teams that need offensive presence as well. However, I should note that Reflect Type Starmie is meant to spin, not wall half the meta, so being passive here is more forgivable than if it were supposed to wall half the meta, because defensive Starmie is not supposed to deal with all of these Pokemon.

IIRC, the different versions to completely different things, and therefore should be ranked differently. I don't blame you for trying to combine them - if they were more similar, you'd have a legit point - but with the difference between the two versions, it'd be like ranking a Genie and its therian form together (okay, not THAT bad, but still...)
We could simply apply such rule to Pokemon and their Mega Evolutions, like what the Ubers Viability Thread does. I think the better counter-argument here is if we want to put both Garchomp and its Mega on the same rank, not Charizard and its Megas, because there is a much more distinct difference between Garchomp and its Megas and Charizard's Megas.
 
I never said that I was comparing the two, I was saying that Mega Heracross, for the most part, that outclasses it. There's a difference. I suggest you learn it.

Yes, Infernape is considerably faster and beats Doublade, that's a good advantage, but I really can't find anything else. Do you want me to compare it Kyu-B? Because in that case, Kyu-B is still a better wallbreaker, due its higher attacking stats.

And while to an extent my statement was false, your inquiries about what can beat it are somewhat false.



Yes, while any other variant will swiftly 2HKO.



1v1, Infernape loses.



For fuck's sake, who would switch Mega Gardevoir directly in on Infernape?



It doesn't 'beat' stallbreaker Mew. It doesn't lose to it, either. However, Stallbreaker Mew will easily outlast Infernape.



Funny, cause Hydro Pump directly OHKOs.



Specially Defensive Gliscor OHKOs with Earthquake, while LO HP Ice (modest) will almost never OHKO.



ScarfTar, SashTar



Honestly, Infernape 2HKOs at best, while Slowbro can deal major damage and abuse Regenerator.



Any Mamoswine carries a Focus Sash, and they'll OHKO with Earthquake.



I never said that's why it was ranked, I was saying that it was a nice bonus or cool USABLE set, that's actually planned to be FIRST on the on-site analysis, which was also almost completely rejected.



You said it yourself, Infernape isn't amazing. Did I ever say it was bad? Nope. I said it was mediocre, because it's not amazing. It's aggressively mediocre, which means that it just happens to be very mediocre. I've used Infernape quite a bit, and to no surprise, it wasn't very good. I did overlook its ability to beat Doublade, you're right on that, but if I want a non-mega wallbreaker, I'll always find myself using Kyu-B, who does a much better job going mixed than Infernape, as well as packing more power.

edit: apparently reading this I sounded like a prick, I'm just trying to tell why Infernape finds itself outclassed a lot :/

edit edit: kyu-b also hits doublade p. hard with epower
Well, first off, I've got to say that you're not wrong, Infernape isn't the best at everything. But I think you are missing the point a bit on it's versatility. There's just so much infernape can do, especially if you're trying to take out specific threats. A lot of the stuff on your list Infernape could actually beat if it adjusted it's set:

Both sash Mamo and sash Ttar will lose to fake out/CC, and scarf Ttar will lose to sash Infernape and end with a double KO after sandstorm damage.

Mega gardevoir isn't hard to take out 1 on 1 either with a combo of fake out/poison jab, or if you're feeling frisky, 'nape could OHKO with gunk shot, OR, it could OHKO with poison jab when banded.

Sashed 'nape can beat even the most specially defensive Gliscor with HP ice 1 on 1, or life orb nape can beat physically defensive gliscors with HP ice with minimal SpA investment (i think you only need 44 SpA to guarantee the OHKO after stealth rocks). OR you could go modest/specs and have like an 85% chance to OHKO with HP ice (guaranteed after SR).

As for slowbro, sash 'nape can win that 1 on 1 with grass knot. Thunder wave would be the worst thing Slowbro could do, providing an outside shot at KOing with scald afterwards as long as nape stays paralyzed for a few turns.

As far as mew goes, that's tough to call, as it's just as flexible as nape is with the sets it can run, so really that could go either way, with the typical advantage going to mew. However, 'nape could really annoy it with U-Turn, and grab momentum while doing decent damage.

Nape can beat clefable pretty easy with LO poison jab/gunk shot. Clefable doesn't have much to do against nape anyway, short of a fully invested modest specs moonblast, and even then, sashed 'nape will still be able to win with a poison jab 2HKO, especially since that kind of clefable would lose a lot of bulk.

I'd say Rotom-W is the only thing on your list that's going to beat 'nape every time (assuming hydro pump doesn't miss). And even then, 'nape can do some decent damage on it's way out.

And to add to your list and just to demonstrate that 'nape can handle most jobs you want to throw at it, sashed Infernape can even beat talonflame with thunderpunch. And talonflame is something that would usually OHKO Infernape with no questions asked.

All of these are very specific matchups, so any given Infernape would only be able to do one of these things at a time, but my point is to illustrate Infernape's ridiculous versatility. If you know exactly what you need Infernape to do, it's usually going to be able to do it. Sure, it's not going to win unfavorable matchups very often, and there are better pokemon for many of it's jobs, but really, there aren't any other pokemon that can do everything Infernape can do as well or better than Infernape can across the board. That alone is enough of a niche for me to at least keep nape where it is. And like I said earlier, if we want to rank Infernape on it's potential as opposed to it's reliability, it should even rise a few ranks.

EDIT: forgot to mention X zard from your list, so here goes: Sashed infernape can beat anything that ANY char X will do with EQ 1 on 1.
 
SomeKidFromJohto I believe Infernape should move up, but your points are highly invalid. Any Pokemon can cater to a specific Pokemon to check it and then sacrifice most of its potential. If a Pokemon is hardly reliable in a meta, then it just shouldn't be ranked, period.

The thing is, Infernape's versatility in terms of Mixed set requires on coverage of 4/5 moves on the mixed set alones that really makes Infernape incredibly hard to switch in on (albiet I will agree that common checks such as Azumarill and Latios on offensive teams are common, they can still be managed and they don't like the damage racking up) all playstyles, as well as how lead sets are great suicide leads for HO. AS WELL as being able to pull off (albiet even more niche) roles such as Scarf and stallbreaker with advantages well makes Infernape worthy to B-, or, at the very least, stay C+.

Also, for both sides, 1v1 isn't the only thing you must take into account. Mixed Infernape being able to easily nab a KO on a switch-in vs stall teams is what makes Mixed Infernape so good against that archetype. (Again, being good against other playstyles is also a major factor to his viability, but that's not to the point) So while you can't say Infernape can switch in on many of these Pokemon, neither can Pokemon like Slowbro or Gliscor.
 
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Well, first off, I've got to say that you're not wrong, Infernape isn't the best at everything. But I think you are missing the point a bit on it's versatility. There's just so much infernape can do, especially if you're trying to take out specific threats. A lot of the stuff on your list Infernape could actually beat if it adjusted it's set:

Both sash Mamo and sash Ttar will lose to fake out/CC, and scarf Ttar will lose to sash Infernape and end with a double KO after sandstorm damage.

Mega gardevoir isn't hard to take out 1 on 1 either with a combo of fake out/poison jab, or if you're feeling frisky, 'nape could OHKO with gunk shot, OR, it could OHKO with poison jab when banded.

Sashed 'nape can beat even the most specially defensive Gliscor with HP ice 1 on 1, or life orb nape can beat physically defensive gliscors with HP ice with minimal SpA investment (i think you only need 44 SpA to guarantee the OHKO after stealth rocks). OR you could go modest/specs and have like an 85% chance to OHKO with HP ice (guaranteed after SR).

As for slowbro, sash 'nape can win that 1 on 1 with grass knot. Thunder wave would be the worst thing Slowbro could do, providing an outside shot at KOing with scald afterwards as long as nape stays paralyzed for a few turns.

As far as mew goes, that's tough to call, as it's just as flexible as nape is with the sets it can run, so really that could go either way, with the typical advantage going to mew. However, 'nape could really annoy it with U-Turn, and grab momentum while doing decent damage.

Nape can beat clefable pretty easy with LO poison jab/gunk shot. Clefable doesn't have much to do against nape anyway, short of a fully invested modest specs moonblast, and even then, sashed 'nape will still be able to win with a poison jab 2HKO, especially since that kind of clefable would lose a lot of bulk.

I'd say Rotom-W is the only thing on your list that's going to beat 'nape every time (assuming hydro pump doesn't miss). And even then, 'nape can do some decent damage on it's way out.

And to add to your list and just to demonstrate that 'nape can handle most jobs you want to throw at it, sashed Infernape can even beat talonflame with thunderpunch. And talonflame is something that would usually OHKO Infernape with no questions asked.

All of these are very specific matchups, so any given Infernape would only be able to do one of these things at a time, but my point is to illustrate Infernape's ridiculous versatility. If you know exactly what you need Infernape to do, it's usually going to be able to do it. Sure, it's not going to win unfavorable matchups very often, and there are better pokemon for many of it's jobs, but really, there aren't any other pokemon that can do everything Infernape can do as well or better than Infernape can across the board. That alone is enough of a niche for me to at least keep nape where it is. And like I said earlier, if we want to rank Infernape on it's potential as opposed to it's reliability, it should even rise a few ranks.
Ahk, I'm really damn tired (fuckin school op, i post on smogon while i'm working, hence why i've got a bunch of posts), but I don't want to get flamed overnight, so please forgive me if any of these thoughts sound stupid, because they're very reliant on coffee and red bull.

Infernape is versatile, but it's too versatile. If it runs something, it will miss out on some other coverage. For example, every Infernape wants to run Close Combat / Fire Blast / Mach Punch / Earthquake / Stealth Rock / Endeavor / Fake Out / HP Ice / U-Turn with a Focus Blast / Life Orb / Choice Scarf. Infernape will always have a solid counter. You imply that every Infernape can just magically OHKO everything with any move, when I would almost never run something like Poison Jab. That's the problem with these kind of arguments, the majority of all these matchups your giving are going to be false unless you have the right coverage.

You're right for the most part on the matchups. Anyways, pretty much all of the matchups are all situational i.e. Only 2% of Infernape actually run Poison-type coverage for fairies (because it's really shitty actually), so a lot of the time, I'm really not adding Poison Jab or Gunk Shot or anything situational like that into the equation. And to be realistic, Poison Jab will rarely 2HKO physically defensive Clefable. Like, you're implying that this will always be the case, where I can think of very common situations where Infernape doesn't run HP Ice or U-Turn, which is actually very common to not. I think it's kinda silly to assume that M-Gard loses to Infernape if it has Gunk Shot / Poison Jab, because that's going to be very situational, although possible, but most of the time, I'm going to OHKO Infernape with Hyper Voice, because they won't be packing Poison Jab most of the time.

tl;dr: infernape will usually lose because it can't pack a million moves in one set

edit: the idea is being sold to me a bit and it does seem strong, c+ seems eh but i'll work it, but there is no way b- would work.
 
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and nom Scolipede for B+/A-. Basically, Scolipede has at least 3 very viable sets, all of whom have entirely different counters. We have offensive attacker scoli, who sports great coverage, usable attack (enough to take out most special threats at least), and speed boost to ensure that it is very difficult to revenge without a priority user. We have scolipede the hazard/scout lead, who can scout out opposing sets, set some spikes, and maybe sneak out a speed pass or even nab surprise KO with megahorn. And of course, we have iron defense pass, capable of setting up in front of the vast majority of physical attackers in the meta and giving an ally setup sweeper the unique combination of speed and defense, two synergistic stats that prevent the receiver from being outsped while at the same time making priority mostly useless. Scolipede has a huge, versatile, and effective movepool that grants him a variety of unique and useful niches, and for that reason I believe he is worthy of B+ or even A rank.
 
SomeKidFromJohto I believe Infernape should move up, but your points are highly invalid. Any Pokemon can cater to a specific Pokemon to check it and then sacrifice most of its potential. If a Pokemon is hardly reliable in a meta, then it just shouldn't be ranked, period.

The thing is, Infernape's versatility in terms of Mixed set requires on coverage of 4/5 moves on the mixed set alones that really makes Infernape incredibly hard to switch in on (albiet I will agree that common checks such as Azumarill and Latios on offensive teams are common, they can still be managed and they don't like the damage racking up) all playstyles, as well as how lead sets are great suicide leads for HO. AS WELL as being able to pull off (albiet even more niche) roles such as Scarf and stallbreaker with advantages well makes Infernape worthy to B-, or, at the very least, stay C+.

Also, for both sides, 1v1 isn't the only thing you must take into account. Mixed Infernape being able to easily nab a KO on a switch-in vs stall teams is what makes Mixed Infernape so good against that archetype. (Again, being good against other playstyles is also a major factor to his viability, but that's not to the point) So while you can't say Infernape can switch in on many of these Pokemon, neither can Pokemon like Slowbro or Gliscor.
Ahk, I'm really damn tired (fuckin school op, i post on smogon while i'm working, hence why i've got a bunch of posts), but I don't want to get flamed overnight, so please forgive me if any of these thoughts sound stupid, because they're very reliant on coffee and red bull.

Infernape is versatile, but it's too versatile. If it runs something, it will miss out on some other coverage. For example, every Infernape wants to run Close Combat / Fire Blast / Mach Punch / Earthquake / Stealth Rock / Endeavor / Fake Out / HP Ice / U-Turn with a Focus Blast / Life Orb / Choice Scarf. Infernape will always have a solid counter. You imply that every Infernape can just magically OHKO everything with any move, when I would almost never run something like Poison Jab. That's the problem with these kind of arguments, the majority of all these matchups your giving are going to be false unless you have the right coverage.

You're right for the most part on the matchups. Anyways, pretty much all of the matchups are all situational i.e. Only 2% of Infernape actually run Poison-type coverage for fairies (because it's really shitty actually), so a lot of the time, I'm really not adding Poison Jab or Gunk Shot or anything situational like that into the equation. And to be realistic, Poison Jab will rarely 2HKO physically defensive Clefable. Like, you're implying that this will always be the case, where I can think of very common situations where Infernape doesn't run HP Ice or U-Turn, which is actually very common to not. I think it's kinda silly to assume that M-Gard loses to Infernape if it has Gunk Shot / Poison Jab, because that's going to be very situational, although possible, but most of the time, I'm going to OHKO Infernape with Hyper Voice, because they won't be packing Poison Jab most of the time.

tl;dr: infernape will usually lose because it can't pack a million moves in one set

edit: the idea is being sold to me a bit and it does seem strong, c+ seems eh but i'll work it, but there is no way b- would work.
Nothing you guys are saying isn't valid, and I acknowledge that Infernape has a lot of drawbacks. My point is that it's potential is very high, because it can be tailored to the needs of your team. All of those matchups I put in my last post are, by themselves, shallow examples that would only very rarely ever happen, but if your team finds that it needs a certain pokemon taken care of, then Infernape is more than moldable to the task. I wasn't actually trying to say that Infernape is a pokemon that SHOULD take these pokemon on, only that it COULD if you needed it to.

My real point is that Infernape is only as good as it's user is creative. You have to be very thoughtful when you build and play infernape, or you'll just end up with a lackluster do-nothing pokemon; I'm not disputing that. But what people just seem unwilling or unable to realize is that the sheer number of different things Infernape can do make it a pokemon that you can fit onto any team and make it effective. Need another U-Turn user with fire and fighting STAB? Need a taunt user that also has fake out? Need a sash lead with access to taunt, WoW, and fire/fighting coverage from both sides of the spectrum? Need a sweeper that can run Swords Dance AND Nasty Plot? There are just too many things Infernape can do for it to get dumped on like it does for being ineffective. It's biggest REAL drawback is that it can only do one of these things at a time. But all that means is that you have to know what you need it to do beforehand, which is why a lot of people think it's bad: they just don't know what they need from it and are unwilling to put in the creative effort to find out.

Ironically, Infernape's biggest pro is also it's biggest con. The number of different options it can run makes it hard to fit everything you need onto one pokemon, so it's always going to be missing something you wish it had. But honestly, that's what the rest of your team is for. And you don't even need to plan the rest of your team around Infernape: you can splash 'nape onto ANY team and find a set that will make it effective, as long as you're willing to put in the thought. Infernape is a swiss-army knife; It can fill whatever gaps you have on your team while simultaneously bringing it's own unique abilities into the mix. Sure, individually it can struggle against things it didn't bring the coverage or support to beat, but that's what I mean when I say that Infernape is only as effective as it's player is creative. A good player can find a way to have 'nape do exactly what they need to turn a battle in the direction they want it to go. And I know that's vague and technically true of any pokemon, but it's especially true of Infernape. 'Nape just has that special something extra that really makes it stand out as a versatile, viable pokemon.

Sure, it's got checks and counters like any pokemon; It's frail, it has a lot of common weaknesses, and it doesn't really want to switch into ANYTHING, but that's why I'm not trying to push this thing through the ranks to A or anything outrageous like that. It's always going to have solid counters, so it's not like it can really stand on it's own, but when you consider what it can potentially offer a team, it's just ridiculously splashable, which is actually an A+/S rank trait on what is at best a B/B+ 'mon.

In my first comment, I was on the fence with where I thought 'Nape should go, so I was being a bit more passive with my thoughts, but honestly throughout writing these replies and thinking about everything Infernape can do, I've actually convinced myself how good this thing is, so I'm going to go ahead and formally nominate Infernape for B-.
 
I've just started testing Infernape and wow, it should definitely go up. Fire Blast/Close Combat/Grass Knot/Hp Ice hits almost everything for massive damage, it's as fast as Keldeo which outspeeds most of the tier and it can wallbreak or sweep. It's absolutely scary to switch into, but Scarfers/Birdspam stop it running riot.

On a different note, Weavile could go up to B. It's outspeeds every relevant non-mega and non-scarfer and hits very hard with Knock Off/Ice Punch/Low Kick and has Ice Shard as priority should you need it. It beats Latios, Garchomp, Gengar, Landorus, Mew and Thundurus in S/A+ alone, so I believe it could easily move up to B.
 
I've been shot down so many times, I know, but more than ever, I think Pinsir needs to go back to S Rank. Pinsir is basically the reason Magnezone offense/bird spam is so good right now. And that one thing it seemed to be missing before, the reason I think I was swayed about it last time, is there now--Knock Off. Knock Off just turned this thing from a decent hole puncher and one of the best win cons into an incredible hole puncher that still has the power to clean up a team. Granted, Pinsir may sacrifice a little of its sweeping ability by running Knock Off instead of one of its other usual moves, but the payoff is immense.

Knock Off + Zone ruins Skarm, yes, we all know that. Knock Off also screws up Doublade which is big considering that Pinsir fits on teams featuring things that really want Doublade gone (Hawlucha, Lati@s, Raptor). In general, Knock Off makes Pinsir's usual checks think twice about switching in, meaning that Mega Mane and Aero are the few things that still want to (and even then Mane doesn't want to get worn down by EQ, because Pinsir still can run this), and not every team wants to run one of those two just to deal with burds.

Plus, if we moved Garde up because some of her best teammates have risen in prominence, all the more we should boost Pinsir because the best defogger in the tier is in S and the best trapper in the tier while lower is still so good right now.

(Stef0w at one point mentioned that SubFlail was something to consider too. I've never tried SubFlail and I confess some things that get screwed by it have gone down in usage, but it's still an option.)

I had been swayed a bit before about Pinsir's flaws (shit typing, etc) but now Knock Off is a thing and with the support it provides I think Pinsir has a good case. If Greninja could get to S despite its severe frailty and occasional lack of power (and I actually don't dispute this btw, Ninja is a good 'mon) because of its ability to take down offense while turning its defensive checks into a liability thanks to Spikes, Pinsir should be there by virtue of everything that put it in A + ruining things that wall it and its team with Knock Off.

I don't normally feel strongly about putting things in S, but 1) Pinsir is one of my favorite mons despite me hating bird spam 2) it actually is really fucking good right now. I really find it somewhat telling that people complain more about PinsirZone than Char X teams nowadays. Char X is more versatile, yes, and easier to fit in teams, but Pinsir just does what it does so well, and some days I think it is actually the best mega in the tier.
 
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