Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Stef0w]

Oh My, Somebody actually tagged me. :]

To be completely honest, Im no pro on using Sub-frail Pinsir, And It's a pretty cool lure, and most certainly better than "just a gimmick".

I could see Pinsir moving up, If only because it tends to be really fucking consistant, and switching anything in on it could easily cost you a mon you're gonna need for another time.

I think the disgustingly large amount of Scarf Landorus-T could ruin the dream, but again, switching the thing into pinsir still hurts it, and water runs the tier, so finding something to beat it isnt too hard.

The thing is IMO the best thing in A+, but it could go either way really.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

I'm not sure about mega pinsir going back up. It does have a lot going for it right now, but there's still a lot of stuff out there that beats it. The
lando-i/mega manectric dual intimidate volt-turn core is pretty common, and pinsir is pretty helpless against it. Banded Talonflame outspeeds and destroys pinsir with it's own birdspam, Rotom-W still stops it cold and can even OHKO pinsir back depending on it's set, and banded dragonite's extremespeeds hurt like hell. I'd say the only thing going for Mega Pinsir is the fact that magnezone deals with most of these threats superbly, which can easily allow pinsir the time and opportunities to do what it does. Mag/pinsir cores are extremely hard to break, but I'm still not convinced that's enough to bring mega pinsir up to S rank. I'm not against it by any means, but I'm not convinced yet.

 

[pj]

My Suggestion

to S
I would suggest Charizard mega Y to S rank as its one of the best Stall breakers and it has godly Special attack with Decent Speed makes it one of the best Special Sweeper. althought having X4 weakness to Stealth rock but it also has Roost in state for recovery.
In the sun, Fire Blast 2HKOes,almost every Pokemon in this gen even neutral typings get hit hard by Fire Blast also hits much harder than Charizard-Y's other attacks hitting super effectively,
Solar Beam allows Charizard-Y to hit the Water- and Rock-types that resist Fire Blast, but it must be used while Sun is on.. Focus Blast gives Charizard-Y much needed coverage against Heatran and Tyranitar, both of which limit the use of Fire Blast and Solar Beam. Roost provides a great means of recovery, granting Charizard-Y longevity and going well in tandem with its high Special Defense. On the other hand, Dragon Pulse can be used to attack Dragon pokemons hard although i prefer roost over Dragon pulse.
also we can use Earthquake with phy att 4 to counter heatran and some electric types.
some calcs
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor in Sun: 399-469 (113.3 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 434-512 (87.3 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Sun: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Srn]

And you realize how passive teams are going down in overall effectiveness to begin with? Do you realize how difficult it is to run passive stall with all of the pressure against it? I would like to leave no comment on Reflect Type Starmie, I never used it, I am referring to offensive Starmie, which is a solid spinner for teams that need offensive presence as well. However, I should note that Reflect Type Starmie is meant to spin, not wall half the meta, so being passive here is more forgivable than if it were supposed to wall half the meta, because defensive Starmie is not supposed to deal with all of these Pokemon.

Brah have you seen boudouche's full stall? Its something along the lines of char-x/ferro/slowbro/mandi/doublade/skarm and its pretty fking fantastic. Its a totally passive stall and while it may not have alomo passive full stall is still as effective as it ever was. It's just not as easy to build as it was, passive stall back in early xy ou was literally venutran+skarmbliss+bulky water+filler. Stall teams are a little tougher to build and just because they require some creativity doesnt mean that they're shit all of a sudden.
And besides, no matter what you're "supposed to wall" or whatever your job is, being passive is not easily forgivable (anywhere cept full stall anyway). You can think up of any excuse you want but at the end of the day you're set up fodder and that sucks.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Brah have you seen boudouche's full stall? Its something along the lines of char-x/ferro/slowbro/mandi/doublade/skarm and its pretty fking fantastic. Its a totally passive stall and while it may not have alomo passive full stall is still as effective as it ever was. It's just not as easy to build as it was, passive stall back in early xy ou was literally venutran+skarmbliss+bulky water+filler. Stall teams are a little tougher to build and just because they require some creativity doesnt mean that they're shit all of a sudden.
And besides, no matter what you're "supposed to wall" or whatever your job is, being passive is not easily forgivable (anywhere cept full stall anyway). You can think up of any excuse you want but at the end of the day you're set up fodder and that sucks.

that stall gets destroyed by crunch lucario sadly

but anyways i do support lucario to b because it can take advantage of this meta really well(spikes ninja, rise of dark types and partial decline of psychic types)and even then it can run crunch to beat them. sure its gonna have 4mss but hey that just makes it more dangerous. its a brilliant late game cleaner and it pairs well with some really good threats(taunt lo gengar, bisharp, and greninja)and i feel like i should address that there is practically no reason to use lucario as a standalone sweeper, it pairs really well with some top sweepers(pinsir, bisharp, and to some extent mega gyarados). also its really hard to revenge kill when its in the middle of a late-game sweep, considering that its checks normally need to be at full health to take lucario. now it may have counters depending on the 4th move(which can be bullet punch, iron tail, crunch, and ice punch iirc)but that just makes it harder to take. anyways because of the meta, how good its teammates are, and how common the stuff it beats is, i support lucario to b


also it can't be completely passive considering it has a zard x

 

[Alfalfa]

My Suggestion

to S
I would suggest Charizard mega Y to S rank as its one of the best Stall breakers and it has godly Special attack with Decent Speed makes it one of the best Special Sweeper. althought having X4 weakness to Stealth rock but it also has Roost in state for recovery.
In the sun, Fire Blast 2HKOes,almost every Pokemon in this gen even neutral typings get hit hard by Fire Blast also hits much harder than Charizard-Y's other attacks hitting super effectively,
Solar Beam allows Charizard-Y to hit the Water- and Rock-types that resist Fire Blast, but it must be used while Sun is on.. Focus Blast gives Charizard-Y much needed coverage against Heatran and Tyranitar, both of which limit the use of Fire Blast and Solar Beam. Roost provides a great means of recovery, granting Charizard-Y longevity and going well in tandem with its high Special Defense. On the other hand, Dragon Pulse can be used to attack Dragon pokemons hard although i prefer roost over Dragon pulse.
also we can use Earthquake with phy att 4 to counter heatran and some electric types.
some calcs
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor in Sun: 399-469 (113.3 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 434-512 (87.3 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Sun: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think you are cherry-picking the argument here. While it is really difficult to switch into due to its raw power, stall usually carries Chansey or Specially Defensive Gyarados as a means of handling it, meaning it is really not that effective of a stallbreaker. Furthermore, Zard Y is not that great of a special sweeper; if Landorus-I is too slow to be an effective special sweeper without using Rock Polish, then so is Zard Y. Zard Y also needs Pursuit support from Tyranitar or Bisharp or else it loses to Roost Latias. Furthermore, Zard Y is easily forced out by anything that can outspeed and KO it, making it not that difficult to revenge kill. Zard Y is fine in A+ Rank.

Brah have you seen boudouche's full stall? Its something along the lines of char-x/ferro/slowbro/mandi/doublade/skarm and its pretty fking fantastic. Its a totally passive stall and while it may not have alomo passive full stall is still as effective as it ever was. It's just not as easy to build as it was, passive stall back in early xy ou was literally venutran+skarmbliss+bulky water+filler. Stall teams are a little tougher to build and just because they require some creativity doesnt mean that they're shit all of a sudden.
And besides, no matter what you're "supposed to wall" or whatever your job is, being passive is not easily forgivable (anywhere cept full stall anyway). You can think up of any excuse you want but at the end of the day you're set up fodder and that sucks.

That team has difficulties with Greninja and has to rely on what coverage it is carrying just to beat it. It is also also forced into a 50-50 by Landorus because Mandibuzz has to rely on a Focus Blast miss just to avoid being 2HKOd after Stealth Rock. I am not against stall being partially passive, Zard X / Chansey / Doublade are pivotal Pokemon on stall. The problem I have is how you are portraying Alomomola as this godly Pokemon that can wall all of these Pokemon when it cannot even stop a Pokemon at +2 without relying on a 30% chance to burn, and will sometimes get OHKOd in the process (both Lum Berry Garchomp and Life Orb Terrakion can beat Alomomola if it tries to switch in on them as they Swords Dance). At least Slowbro has access to a stronger Scald, plus Ice Beam and Psyshock depending on what you want it to beat. At least Doublade can effectively handle the Pokemon it is supposed to beat. At least Zard X can beat stallbreaker Mew. At least Skarmory can beat Mega Pinsir while having access to Taunt, Whirlwind, and Counter to stop things from setting up on it. At least Mandibuzz has STAB Foul Play, Whirlwind, and Taunt to beat what its team needs. At least Ferrothorn can harass most of its switch-ins with Leech Seed + Protect, and has a pool of niftry resistances to use. All Alomomola does is Wish and encourage things like Gyarados and Keldeo to set up Substitutes and start setting up to beat, encourage Garchomp to set up on it via Lum Berry, and encourage Life Orb Terrakion to get a Swords Dance on the switch and OHKO Sun Fish 94% of the time with Close Combat.

 

[zbr]

My Suggestion

to S
I would suggest Charizard mega Y to S rank as its one of the best Stall breakers and it has godly Special attack with Decent Speed makes it one of the best Special Sweeper. althought having X4 weakness to Stealth rock but it also has Roost in state for recovery.
In the sun, Fire Blast 2HKOes,almost every Pokemon in this gen even neutral typings get hit hard by Fire Blast also hits much harder than Charizard-Y's other attacks hitting super effectively,
Solar Beam allows Charizard-Y to hit the Water- and Rock-types that resist Fire Blast, but it must be used while Sun is on.. Focus Blast gives Charizard-Y much needed coverage against Heatran and Tyranitar, both of which limit the use of Fire Blast and Solar Beam. Roost provides a great means of recovery, granting Charizard-Y longevity and going well in tandem with its high Special Defense. On the other hand, Dragon Pulse can be used to attack Dragon pokemons hard although i prefer roost over Dragon pulse.
also we can use Earthquake with phy att 4 to counter heatran and some electric types.
some calcs
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor in Sun: 399-469 (113.3 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 434-512 (87.3 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Sun: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It's an interesting thought. But Zard Y definitely does not deserve S. Heatran is still relevant in mid-high level play so Zard Y has to rely on support. Comparing it to other S ranks such as Keldeo and it's brethren Zard X, it does not work as well as them. Keldeo has a great base speed and a great spammable Stab(s) and it also doesn't take 50% on rocks switch in. Zard X, prior to mega evolving, does have to worry about rocks but it has so many great and viable sets that allow it to play mind games and make a lot of force switches. After mega evolving, it loses that 4x rocks weakness for 2x and becomes much more capable of handling a variety of playstyles. Offense, Balanced and Stall are all damaged by Zard X. Zard Y on the other hand, has to rely on Sun to give itself the much needed coverage (Solarbeam + Effectively having only 2 main weakness) and that means you need to effectively count your turns and make every turn count. Of course alternate weather inducers are not mandatory partners, but they are AMAZING partner because they reset the weather for Zard Y to come back in and wreck. Zard Y is by no means a slouch when it comes to comparing firepower and defensive options. A mixed Zard Y can even catch opponents off guard. But that doesn't mean it is capable of being in S rank.

Chansey just shits all over Zard Y that it's not even funny. Unless you're running the Mixed set with Flare Blitz.. but you would do that only if you want the sun support. Overall, Zard Y is a crazy wallbreaker that is a good choice if you want immediate power, but it isn't capable of doing it's job as amazingly as the S rank does it. In our current meta, Zard Y has a decent amount of risk involved in using it and the reward in using it is only decent as well because a lot of mons are capable of checking it and turning it into deadweight, especially considering that Landorus-T and (insert volt switch user here) core is so prevalent in our current meta.

 

[WideTomato]

Alright, i did the ttar nomination for A- rank a while back, but whatever.

(A) -> A-
I havent been using mttar in a long time, though i used him a LOT in the deo metagame.

The most effective set for m-ttar is the dd set, as ttar is one of the bulkiest dragon dance sweepers in the game. It have a nice strong base 164 attack and a decent 71 speed, which with a beneficial nature is just enough to outspeed the entire non-scarfed meta at plus 1 (with the exception of mega-man, mega-aero and mega-zam) and the entire meta at plus 2 (with the exception of sand rush exca). Tyranitars bulk is also insane, with base 100/150/(pseudo)189 defenses, which makes it able to live all neutral STAB and (x2) Non-STAB SE moves and a really nice portions of SE stab moves, almost garanteing it to get a +1/+1, unlike most other sweepers. Tyranitar also gets tons of setup oppotunitues on some common pokemon, such as Latis, talonflame etc.

in itself mega ttar is a really strong, bulky and decently fast dd sweeper which are all great tools to make it function. However TTar have slight 4mss, in what stab move it should be using (crunch or stone egde) which hit very different targets and determinds which checks and counters he struggles the most against. But the 4mss syndrom is not what really stops it from being an effective sweeper. IMO the current meta is just really hash to ttar, with the great amount of sand offence adding a huge opportunity cost in not being able to use a smooth rock ttar as a sand setter, plus his poor match up against sand. It also have a bad match up against the rising amount of choice scarf users in the meta, such as garchomp, landorus, terrakion etc. as well as a lot of common pokemon who can tank a hit and kill it (or just beat it 1v1), such as Keldeo, ferrothorn, slowbro (stone edge variant), mega heracross (crunch variant) etc. Not only that, but it is also weak to the common priority moves, mach punch and bullet punch, making it even easier to revenge.

Mega ttar (compared to the current meta and other options)

Pros:
-Bulky and can set up on a lot of mons
-High attack, making it a great nuke or late game cleaner
-Good coverage options, including: stone egde, crunch, earthquake, ice punch, thunder punch, fire punch, super power

Cons:
-Weak to a lot of metagame trends (balanced team, fighting types, sand, volt turn, intimidate, scarfs)
-Cant be used alongside exca very well
-Competes with a lot of (better?) pokemon for the mega slot
-Outspeed by, and weak to, many scarfed pokemon
-weak to common types (water, ground, fighting, bug and steel)

 

[AM]

I don't believe M-Pinsir or Charizard-Y are S rank material at this point. ZANBAKUresh basically said the stuff for Char-Y so I'll mention some stuff for M-Pinsir.

Everytime we get this nomination we bring up how it's able to now handle its checks and counters because of Knock Off when that's not even close to the truth and it now only takes off Shed Shell from Skarmory and Eviolite from Doublade. Just cause it has the ability to handle these two things now doesn't mean it's all of a sudden an S rank mon. Let's also consider that it's not exactly as easy to slap on a team as some are making it out to be. When you put in M-Pinsir you need to take into account Stealth Rock, Scarfed Lando-T, Rain Offense, Sand Offense, Rhyperior, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Thundurus, Talonflame, Raikou, already boosted mons, Torn-T, Doublade and the list kind of goes on. M-Pinsir can't take on every single threat so as such it needs a partner to actually reliably handle it so now you just created limitations from a teambuilding perspective. Something like Greninja or Keldeo for example can choose much more easily what it threatens and in the span of only 4 moves can threaten a huge portion of the metagame. When M-Pinsir chooses its set, it autoloses to certain threats while having the advantage against others. SubFlail is a high risk high reward set that requires you to be at low health to successfully pull off and in most cases only benefits from being able to threaten much more slower builds or extremely frail ones. Bulky Offense doesn't actually care about this set as much because it has the bulk to take it on and forcing M-Pinsir out of its Sub isn't exactly that difficult to accomplish. Knock Off is just to counter team a couple of specific threats while losing out on stuff such as T-Tar and Rhyperior automatically when you forgo Close Combat. On the topic of such things such as Rhyperior, mons such as this and others like bulkier variants of Torn-T simply force M-Pinsir out the moment they come in when they've accomplished to stay healthy cause M-Pinsir isn't breaking through this or is getting KO'd that very turn. So in scenarios like this you are now required to provide it enough team support to actually clean up late game and to me that is enough support for me to justify keeping it at A+ rank. If M-Pinsir could easily handle its general checks and counters as well as some people have stated I could see it in S, but from a teambuilding and practical standpoint it realistically can't and as such shouldn't get a raise.

 

[WideTomato]

I have to say i disagree with conkeldurr for C+

While the meta have ben harsh to it lately, it's still an allright pokemon. It's one of the best abusers of av, as it have somewhat reliable recovery in drain punch, something other av mons can only wish for. It also have reliable priority in Mach punch, making it a nice check to sand offence. Conk also have noteable bulk, both physical defensively and special defensively, making it almost impossible to take down on one hit, without a se stab move with high base power

The reason why conk was such an incredible mon in the old meta was due to its ability, guts, putting pressure on opposing status users, as they might just status him instead, this lead to mind games of whether or not you will switch out and absorb the status, boosting conk. Two new status spreaders is also on the rise in the meta, mew and slowbro, who conkeldurr only benefits from and the ban of aegi and mawile also doesn't hinder him at all. Conk actually makes good team mates with faster physical attackers such as mega pinsir, mega gyara and mega TTar as he can absorb the burns and paralysis aimed at them to boost his own power even further.

The drain punch | Mach punch | ice punch | knock off set was the most common early meta, and for good reasons, however the set is not set in stone and can be easily costimized to match the team, or just give conk better coverage (more important) i have some alternative sets and some calcs.

sets

Name: clefable/azu lure
Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

This set aims to 2hko clef after you knock off its item turn 1, as it cant come close of koing with moon blast, and knock off + poison jab + poison jab will kill it.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 54-64 (13.7 - 16.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Name: Charizard lure
Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off <- can be swapped for ice punch
- Stone Edge

This set aims to beat zard, pinsir and gyarados who all abuse its nve fight stab to set up on it.
The evs are optional, chosen to live lo latios psyshock and sd talons brave bird

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 620-732 (208.7 - 246.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Stone Edge vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 232-274 (69.6 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 252-298 (92.9 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 96-114 (29 - 34.4%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO

Conks bulk

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 208 HP / 48 Def Conkeldurr: 338-400 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- can be evd to live
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 208 HP / 48 Def Conkeldurr: 338-402 (83.8 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 208 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 294-346 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 208 HP / 48 Def Conkeldurr: 285-336 (70.7 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- 1v1 conk can stone edge + mach punch
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 208 HP / 48 Def Conkeldurr: 238-281 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- mach punch is a 2hko and drain is 1hko
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 289-341 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 186-222 (46.1 - 55%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 208 HP / 48 Def Conkeldurr: 244-288 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I am not saying that conkeldurr is as good as he ones was, but i think he's just fine in B- (though i would not mind him moving up)

Stay in B-

 

[Lazybeef]

Mega-pinsir is one of the most team-restrictive pokemon in OU. If you use it you pretty much have to dedicate 2 additional moveslots to support it (magnezone+hazard control). It's not something you slap on a team lightly because it will force you to revolve your entire strategy around it. The same thing goes for charizard-y in a sense. The S-ranks doesn't have this problem and that is a big reason why they are S-rank; they can function without support. Pinsir and char-y cannot, they suffer much more from the lack of support than the S-ranks.


Still, both pinsir and char-y deserves A+ because they are amazing when given the right support.

 

[RotomPoison]

Please stop with this "every Pokemon needs Magnezone" thing because when Pinsir was S before Magnezone wasn't even used enough to be OU. What stops literally any other Pokemon from handling its "counters" like any other Pokemon that has a counter. Infernape takes care of Doublade and Skarm too, does every Pinsir team have an Infernape? No. Does Pinsir need Defog? Sure, but Latios is probably the best mon in OU so this isn't that big of a deal.

tl;dr Pinsir may or may not be S rank but not for the reasons you guys are saying

I feel like the problem with Pinsir is it just has "early game syndrome" in which it is way too prone to being revenged or walled. It lacks the versatility to break through its counters. Example: It can NEVER break Rhyperior, Doublade, or Skarmory, it simply lacks the movepool to do that. It can break past Talon with Feint but that's worse against revenge killers like Thundurus and Latios and Greninja. I don't think power is Pinsir's problem, it's simply the lack of versatility that Pokemon like Latios don't have, because it can beat Heatran with Earthquake or Bisharp with HP Fighting or Ferrothorn with HP Fire, and Pinsir can just never do that. I don/t think something walled as well or revenged as easily as Mega Pinsir can be S rank, because +2 Quick Attack isn't solving all of those problems either, and the revenge killer just needs to be healthy, which isn't that hard, or you can go the other route and use Magnezone and a Pursuit trapper or whatever else but then you actually are forcing yourself to use a more restricted team, which you really shouldn't do. Pinsir is too flawed in this metagame to be S rank.

 

[Alfalfa]

Please stop with this "every Pokemon needs Magnezone" thing because when Pinsir was S before Magnezone wasn't even used enough to be OU. What stops literally any other Pokemon from handling its "counters" like any other Pokemon that has a counter. Infernape takes care of Doublade and Skarm too, does every Pinsir team have an Infernape? No. Does Pinsir need Defog? Sure, but Latios is probably the best mon in OU so this isn't that big of a deal.

tl;dr Pinsir may or may not be S rank but not for the reasons you guys are saying

I feel like the problem with Pinsir is it just has "early game syndrome" in which it is way too prone to being revenged or walled. It lacks the versatility to break through its counters. Example: It can NEVER break Rhyperior, Doublade, or Skarmory, it simply lacks the movepool to do that. It can break past Talon with Feint but that's worse against revenge killers like Thundurus and Latios and Greninja. I don't think power is Pinsir's problem, it's simply the lack of versatility that Pokemon like Latios don't have, because it can beat Heatran with Earthquake or Bisharp with HP Fighting or Ferrothorn with HP Fire, and Pinsir can just never do that. I don/t think something walled as well or revenged as easily as Mega Pinsir can be S rank, because +2 Quick Attack isn't solving all of those problems either, and the revenge killer just needs to be healthy, which isn't that hard, or you can go the other route and use Magnezone and a Pursuit trapper or whatever else but then you actually are forcing yourself to use a more restricted team, which you really shouldn't do. Pinsir is too flawed in this metagame to be S rank.

Mega Pinsir can ravage unprepared teams, but the truth is, most teams have prepared for it. The lack of versatility really hurts as well, along with other things, such as Stealth Rock weakness, a lot of common weaknesses, needing support to break through its check (where Latios has the freedom to use a number of different moves to break through what it wants to, etc., and I agree with opposing Mega Pinsir's nomination to S Rank.

 

[HolyAvatar]

I feel like the problem with Pinsir is it just has "early game syndrome" in which it is way too prone to being revenged or walled. It lacks the versatility to break through its counters. Example: It can NEVER break Rhyperior, Doublade, or Skarmory, it simply lacks the movepool to do that. It can break past Talon with Feint but that's worse against revenge killers like Thundurus and Latios and Greninja. I don't think power is Pinsir's problem, it's simply the lack of versatility that Pokemon like Latios don't have, because it can beat Heatran with Earthquake or Bisharp with HP Fighting or Ferrothorn with HP Fire, and Pinsir can just never do that. I don/t think something walled as well or revenged as easily as Mega Pinsir can be S rank, because +2 Quick Attack isn't solving all of those problems either, and the revenge killer just needs to be healthy, which isn't that hard, or you can go the other route and use Magnezone and a Pursuit trapper or whatever else but then you actually are forcing yourself to use a more restricted team, which you really shouldn't do. Pinsir is too flawed in this metagame to be S rank.

An S pokemon is not a pokemon that can neither be walled nor revenged. It would be banned immediately.
Please stop contradicting yourself when mentioning 2 different hidden powers for Latios. One could also say that Latios has a lot of counters and a heavy 4mss wanting to run DM/Psychoc/defog/thunderbolt/surf/hp fire/hp fighting and gets destroyed by ferro/azu/heatran/M-scizor/tyrannitar/bisharp/etc... depending on coverage while Chansey just counters all of its sets.
Most pinsir may have 3 standard moves (sd/return-frustration/quick attack) but his counters do change depending on coverage: close combat/earthquake/knock off. Having skarm as a counter is not a huge problem because you have 5 other pokemon.
Doublade is destroyed by knock off and it's not like it can do anything back, toxic being way too slow.
Rhyperior can easily be worn down or overburdened.
I get the feeling that people want pinsir to be able excellent at 3 roles at the same time: sweeper, cleaner and wallbreaker. It does pack a mean punch but if you want a wallbreaker get one although it won't sweep any time soon.
If you think S pokemon are a whole team in one pokemon, you're dead wrong.
Mega Pinsir for S

About the hazard control support, it is so easy to remove hazards this gen that it is not such a problem anymore.

 

[RotomPoison]

An S pokemon is not a pokemon that can neither be walled nor revenged. It would be banned immediately.
Please stop contradicting yourself when mentioning 2 different hidden powers for Latios. One could also say that Latios has a lot of counters and a heavy 4mss wanting to run DM/Psychoc/defog/thunderbolt/surf/hp fire/hp fighting and gets destroyed by ferro/azu/heatran/M-scizor/tyrannitar/bisharp/etc... depending on coverage while Chansey just counters all of its sets.
Most pinsir may have 3 standard moves (sd/return-frustration/quick attack) but his counters do change depending on coverage: close combat/earthquake/knock off. Having skarm as a counter is not a huge problem because you have 5 other pokemon.
Doublade is destroyed by knock off and it's not like it can do anything back, toxic being way too slow.
Rhyperior can easily be worn down or overburdened.
I get the feeling that people want pinsir to be able excellent at 3 roles at the same time: sweeper, cleaner and wallbreaker. It does pack a mean punch but if you want a wallbreaker get one although it won't sweep any time soon.
If you think S pokemon are a whole team in one pokemon, you're dead wrong.
Mega Pinsir for S

About the hazard control support, it is so easy to remove hazards this gen that it is not such a problem anymore.

Did I not just make a whole post on its lack of useful versatility? Latios may have 4MSS but it has the opportunity to break nearly any counter. Knock Off hits Doublade sure but it's not OHKOing so why do you act like it is? CC and Earthquake have very similar coverage anyway. "You have 5 other Pokemon anyway" literally applies to EVERYTHING. Any well played Rhyperior can be saved as a Pinsir check and win if rocks stay up.

I get the feeling that people want pinsir to be able excellent at 3 roles at the same time: sweeper, cleaner and wallbreaker. It does pack a mean punch but if you want a wallbreaker get one although it won't sweep any time soon.

Which is why it shouldn't be S. You literally say it has huge problems then nom it to S

 

[Karxrida]

Did I not just make a whole post on its lack of useful versatility? Latios may have 4MSS but it has the opportunity to break nearly any counter. Knock Off hits Doublade sure but it's not OHKOing so why do you act like it is? CC and Earthquake have very similar coverage anyway. "You have 5 other Pokemon anyway" literally applies to EVERYTHING. Any well played Rhyperior can be saved as a Pinsir check and win if rocks stay up.



Which is why it shouldn't be S. You literally say it has huge problems then nom it to S

While the bolded statement is true, you should always consider how easy it is to patch up a Mon's weaknesses with those 5 other teamslots. If you can patch up those weaknesses with only 1 or 2 other Mons it should be noted since it means it's super easy to support.

 

[Rosen]

fuck pinsir but real talk lucario's gotta go up

this thing is rediculous atm, once it gets to +2 it's p much gg against offensive teams. LO boosted espeed comin off of an atk stat of 700 is no laughing matter, son. Fuck yo talonflame. i used to laugh at this thing going up but i'm a believer now child

also weavile should go up w/out question. Being in the same rank as shit like togekiss is a fucken sin. This thing beats so much shit on offense 1v1, genies, lati@s, gengar, bisharp, scarf ttar, garchomp, etc etc and it can seriously fuck up defensive cores as well (lookin at you, slowbro + amoonguss regen bullshit)

so yeah let's see this happen

 

[Magcargo]

An S pokemon is not a pokemon that can neither be walled nor revenged. It would be banned immediately.
Please stop contradicting yourself when mentioning 2 different hidden powers for Latios. One could also say that Latios has a lot of counters and a heavy 4mss wanting to run DM/Psychoc/defog/thunderbolt/surf/hp fire/hp fighting and gets destroyed by ferro/azu/heatran/M-scizor/tyrannitar/bisharp/etc... depending on coverage while Chansey just counters all of its sets.
Most pinsir may have 3 standard moves (sd/return-frustration/quick attack) but his counters do change depending on coverage: close combat/earthquake/knock off. Having skarm as a counter is not a huge problem because you have 5 other pokemon.
Doublade is destroyed by knock off and it not like it can do anything back, toxic being way too slow.
Rhyperior can easily be worn down or overburdened.
I get the feeling that people want pinsir to be able excellent at 3 roles at the same time: sweeper, cleaner and wallbreaker. It does pack a mean punch but if you want a wallbreaker get one although it won't sweep any time soon.
If you think S pokemon are a whole team in one pokemon, you're dead wrong.
Mega Pinsir for S

About the hazard control support, it is so easy to remove hazards this gen that it is not such a problem anymore.

Something you have to take notice of is that Latios provides invaluable support in the form of Defog, checks / counters a wide variety of Pokemon including Keldeo, Non-Knock off Landorus-I and Thundurus, Mega Manetric, raikou, etc, has a large amount of flexibility with its moveset in order to support its team and requires little to no support in order to preform its job. Mega Pinsir on the other hand provides little to no defensive synergy and support for the team, is one-dimensional, and requires additional support in the form of Defog / Rapid Spin due to its 4x SR weakness. Many Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Magnezone, Choice Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Manetric, and choice scarf Heatran are increasing in usage, making it much harder for Mega Pinsir to sweep in the current metagame. The number of reliable setup oppurtunities Mega Pinsir receives is also becoming more and more rare, considering that several pokemon that it CAN setup on (Heracross, Charizard, ) can OHKO it. I feel A+ is fine for it.

Some thoughts on a few other Pokemon:

Entei
Honestly, I would move this mon down to C / C- Rank. As a revenge killer, its pretty much outclassed by Talonflame and Dragonite since its priority is weaker and it lacks any sort of versatility unlike the other 2 Pokemon. Its weak to Stealth Rock, but unlike Dragonite and Talonflame, it doesn't have recovery, making any damage done to it permanent. Entei's coverage is also bad, making it easy to keep in check with Pokemon such as Keldeo and Slowbro, as well as making it somewhat prediction reliant vs fire-resist like Heatran, Charizard X, and Rotom-W. Sacred Fire is an amazing move, but I don't think its enough to make Entei C+ Rank due to its many shortcomings.

Blissey
This should be unranked in the current metagame. Its pretty much completely outclassed by Chansey (who isn't too stellar of a Pokemon to begin with) and its primary niche of countering Landorus-I isn't as relevant considering Landorus-I's decreasing usage in favor of its Therian form. It also shares a majority of Chansey's problems, such as being extremely passive and setup bait for a large portion of the tier.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

fuck pinsir but real talk lucario's gotta go up

this thing is rediculous atm, once it gets to +2 it's p much gg against offensive teams. LO boosted espeed comin off of an atk stat of 700 is no laughing matter, son. Fuck yo talonflame. i used to laugh at this thing going up but i'm a believer now child

also weavile should go up w/out question. Being in the same rank as shit like togekiss is a fucken sin. This thing beats so much shit on offense 1v1, genies, lati@s, gengar, bisharp, scarf ttar, garchomp, etc etc and it can seriously fuck up defensive cores as well (lookin at you, slowbro + amoonguss regen bullshit)

so yeah let's see this happen

I'm behind both of these as well. Lucario is still a beast even without his mega, and at +2 it can put a huge hole in anything. Plus it has a pretty wide movepool with options to hit a lot of pokemon for SE damage, and hit them hard. It's speed is it's biggest drawback, but access to several forms of priority somewhat mitigates that. It does have weaknesses to a lot of common powerful moves, but a 4x SR resist along with some other key resistances can give it enough opportunities to set up for a sweep.

Weavile is also a good pokemon with a lot of usability. It's got an extremely powerful STAB knock off, which can ruin stall's chances of victory pretty fast, along with boosting opportunities and priority, so there's a lot this thing can do. After a swords dance, this thing's ice shard is also nothing to sneeze at, even being able to OHKO dragonite through multiscale. Plus with the coverage that low kick provides, it can really lay the hurt on a lot of the metagame. It's super frail, though, easily falling to any SE hits or any boosted hits, and even though it has it's own priority, a lot of other priority users can either still outspeed (talonflame, any Espeed user), or not care about it's priority and hit back with it's own priority for a OHKO, like scizor's bullet punch or conk's mach punch. I still think Weavile should move up, as it is ridiculously threatening to a lot of the metagame, but it does have a lot of easily exploitable weaknesses, so you have to be really careful with it.

 

[jbtc10]

Lucario's double priority set is pretty vicious atm and is one of the main things making it deserve to move up imo. Since the meta has become much more offense oriented and Luke finds himself being outsped by a great number of things if he doesn't use priority, Bullet Punch after a SD is amazing since it takes care of the usual checks like Gengar, Terrakion, Scarf T-Tar and Kyurem-B (+2 E-speed doesn't kill, +2 Bullet Punch does) which makes him infinitely more likely to sweep mid/late game and makes nabbing the SD a no-brainer since you no longer need to care about the opponent switching directly into the check and blowing your momentum and sweeping ability. I've been pretty amazed at how often I've been able to achieve a sweep with the set. E-Speed takes care of most other offense stuff and ensures it can't be revenged by other prio users like Talonflame and Banded D-nite.

There's also the option of dropping a move, say CC, for Ice Punch to make one of the best Lando-T and Gliscor lures, and strangely, you don't even miss CC that much because usually with Luke your goal is just to nab a Swords Dance and sweep with prio mid/late game, you rarely find yourself using CC that much and your opponent will always assume you have it anyway. It's a knock off absorber and has good enough typing and coverage to force switches to get a boost pretty easily, and I've honestly been finding it as good or even better than Diggersby lately, because unlike Diggersby, he's actually much harder to stop after a boost and has more ways to change his checks and counters, not to mention a better typing and speed tier. His priority is also always useful and quite clutch at times for any offense team. Supporting a raise to B.

 

[RufflesPro]

I have been out of the metagame for a while now, for a month, I got bored of the OU metagame so I just started fooling around with Cry and Gourgiest in the 1500s-1600s.

So if someone can quickly explain while Greninja is at S, Rhyperior at B, Mega Zam at B+, and Mega Heracross at A+ (I mean its A material, but A+ along with Exca and over Mega T-tar and Mega Gyarados is a bit absurd to me)

Aside from that everything makes sense. (Well Diggersby at A- is a bit eh to me too). Would be really appreciated.

alexwolf EDIT: Cryogonal is not getting ranked.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

I have been out of the metagame for a while now, for a month, I got bored of the OU metagame so I just started fooling around with Cry and Gourgiest in the 1500s-1600s.

So if someone can quickly explain while Greninja is at S, Rhyperior at B, Mega Zam at B+, and Mega Heracross at A+ (I mean its A material, but A+ along with Exca and over Mega T-tar and Mega Gyarados is a bit absurd to me)

Aside from that everything makes sense. (Well Diggersby at A- is a bit eh to me too). Would be really appreciated.

Also I want to do one thing:

Nominating Cryogonal for somewhere between C and B (Not sure)

Now this may makes absolutely no sense to you, but I have to say Cry has been amazing for me, here's what it does:

- Counter Greninja (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Cryogonal: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
- Counter Gliscor, Mega Venu, Politoed, Quagsire, Suicune, Hippowdon (W/o Rock Slide / Stone Edge), Starmie (W/o Psyshock) Landorus and Thundurus
- Check Garchomp, Slowbro, Amoonguss, Kingdra, Dragonite, Mandibuzz and Landorus-T
- Check weakened Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, Staraptor, Rhyperior.
- Reliably Rapid Spin on many threats
- Recover

These are the most common pokemons and most viable (B to S) that it can check/counter.

With Recover and its fast speed, its a reliable Spinner. I used Freeze Dry / Recover / Rapid Spin / Ice Beam or HP Ground with 248 HP / 24 SpA / 4 SpD / 232+ Spe

Now this may look weak, and while it is, it can surprisingly hit hard enough to revenge kill things like Mega Pinsir / Latios and also bulky enough to completely counter Thundurus, Landorus and HP Fire-less Greninja, prolly the 3 most common mons on HO.

Well, I'll give briefly explaining those ranks a shot: (if I leave anyting out, I'm sure someone else will fill in the blanks for you)
-Gren rose to S mainly because of spikes, honestly. Spikes gives gren the ability to wear down it's counters and still do it's normal job of omni-STABbing everything, which gave it the ability to support itself, which let it rose to S.
-Rhyperior rose to B for being the best birdspam counter, hands down. It's ridiculous physical bulk lets it switch into talonflame, pinsir, or staraptor, and wreck their stuff like nothing else can.
-Megazam rose because of Trace, mostly. It can come in on sand rush/swift swim users and still outspeed, for instance. This gives it the ability to hard counter even stuff like heatran by tracing flash fire, or the ability to annoy intimidate users, most of which are physical and won't appreciate that getting bounced back at them. All of this on top of a supreme speed and special attack lets megazam do a lot of damage against the right team.
-Mega Hera rose along with mega medi and mega gard after the aegislash ban as one of the three premier mega wallbreakers. Hera is one of the more favored ones right now for it's ability to slam just about anything for ridiculous damage after a SD, and for being the bulkiest choice out of those three.
-And as for Diggersby, one of the main reasons it rose is because of the very effective double bunny core that people have been using featuring diggs and azumarill. They can help wear down each others' checks and counters very effectively, making it a solid offensive core.

Hopefully that will clear things up a bit, and like I said, if I was too brief with that, I'm sure someone will post a more detailed explanation if you're still confused.

As far as Cryogonal goes, I'm not sure. For one thing, it definitely shouldn't start at C or B, that's ridiculous. Start by nomming for D, then go from there. I will say that I have faced a few cryogonals on stall teams, and they were actually decently effective, as being a pretty fast rapid spin/recover user with decent special bulk allows it to take on some pretty key threats. But being SR weak and having ZERO physical defense isn't good, plus Ice is lackluster defensively at best. It does check a bunch of threatening pokemon, such as the ones you mentioned, but it's also easy to contain, as it's frailty to omnipresent threats such as talon's BB or Dragonite's extremespeed make it hard to use outside of full stall teams with answers to those pokemon. Additionally, it's actually weak to other common forms of priority in mach punch and bullet punch, so most teams are going to have a 100% effective cryogonal check/counter. I think that cry's niche might be enough to get D rank, but definitely not C or B.

 

[Albacore]

After having thought about this a while and discussed this with Poek97 (who's writing its analysis so he knows what he's talking about), I'm starting to think Doubalde should drop back to C+. The metagame has started to become unfavorable towards it recently, what with the rise of Crawdaunt (who completely ruins it), Knock off MPinsir, Bisharp (yes I know Doubalde has Sacred Sword but Bisharp is still a solid check), Gengar, Garchomp, Diggersby etc... The big problem with Doublade is that, unless you're facing one of the 5 or so things it walls, it's complete and utter deadweight throughout the entire match. And a couple of the things it's supposed to beat it doesn't even counter that well. For instance, MGarde does a good chunk of damage with Hyper Voice, which means that if it gets forced out without being able to get health back, it can't come back in again. Latios and Latias also do quite a bit of damage with Draco Meteor and can HP Fire it with ease. Add that to the fact that Doublade is ridiculously easy to wear down and you often end up having to pack a secondary MGarde switchin, and another Latios counter too. Doubalde's ability to wall certain things is kinda overstated IMO, especially since it also needs a lot support to consistently beat some of these threats, and you often spend your time trying to get a Heal Bell off or pass a wish to it which the opponent can easily play around. Doublade is also very easily taken advantage of by pretty much 70% of the tier, and can become a liability very easily. Yes, it still beats these huge threats and is pretty much required on stall and everything and that's great, but as a standalone Pokemon, it has so many gaping flaws that I have a hard time seeing it in B-, especially given that the metagame is now aware of its presence on stall teams and is working its way round it.

Oh yeah and we're not ranking Cryagonal lol, it doesn't even beat half of the things you said it beats. Using your own spread, it can't even switch in on Greninja after rocks (and given that it's your spinner, it'll be switching in on rocks a lot) and can be 2HKO'd by HP Fire (which most of them run) even without that. Even disregarding SR, MVenu just spams Sludge Bomb until poison while taking around 25% from Ice Beam so I don't see how Cryagonal counters it, Suicune sets up on it, Landorus literally OHKOs with Focus Blast, Thundurus can outspeed and 2HKO with TBolt+Focus Blast or OHKO with Superpower, Dragonite can KO it with Banded or +1 ESpeed and Cryagonal can't switch in on any move or OHKO it if Multiscale is intact, Latios and Latias outspeed and OHKO with Psyshock, AV Azumarill needs to be weakened to the point of near death (less than 33%) to get KO'd by Freeze Dry, and no matter how weakened it is, MPinsir murders it if it's at +2 or heck, even wins the speed tie.
Avalugg is way better than Cryagonal and we didn't rank that. Literally Cryagonal's only niche I can think of is spinning on Spikes Greninja, and that's not enough to be ranked or ever be used over Starmie.

 

[kabbes]

Alright, I've changed my mind about Lanturn. I've been playing a lot with a RestTalk set (and yes, with leftovers!) and this thing is the nuts. Rest makes all the difference, giving it actual longevity, which it otherwise lacks. And it's bulky enough that few things can deny it the opportunity to rest. Meanwhile, sleep talk has a 2/3 chance to activate scald or volt switch, meaning you either pivot or have that sexy 30% burn chance against anything scald itself isn't supereffective against. It's a stally bastard.

I just wasn't expecting this Lanturn to wall so many pokemon. For a start, it's a superb answer to all forms of Talonflame, on top of its usual electric-checking duties. Partner it with bulky Talonflame and nothing hits both super effectively. RestTalk Lanturn has done so much heavy lifting for me, not only do I think that its C rating is actually justified after all, I would actually support it at C+.

I know people are probably tired of talking about Lanturn at this point, but I wanted to close it off from my perspective, since I have been doing so much testing of it.

 

[alexwolf]

The only move on Dnite thats powerful enough to be used for wallbreaking is Outrage, your not going to break anything with EQ or Firepunch, hopefully i dont have to explain why having to lock yourself into Outrage is far worse than just clicking Sacred Fire and watch something die/burn? Talonflame has an even bigger SR weakness, Swift swimmers and Exca can only clean lategame with weather support and Hawlucha... well i dont wanna talk about that, will just derail the thread.
The only one of them that is comparable to Entei is Dnite who is SR weak as well, due to multiscale even worse, cant wallbreak as well with its reliance on Outrage and, imo thats the biggest point, is 4 x weak to Ice. Considering how many good mons in the meta have an Ice weakness you usually have to to dismiss some of them in favour of Dnite or stack ice weaks to no end. Lando-T and Latis are staples on most teams, thats already 2 ice weaks, one of them 4x. That fact alone makes Entei far more appealing compared to Dnite, at least to me.

What makes Weavile or Crawdaunt more effective? Weavile is frail as fuck, ohkoed by basicly everything and not even that powerful its just a bad physical version of Greninja. Crawdaunt hits hard but is frail and slow as hell and therefore has a very hard time coming in and setting up. Entei just needs a chance to come in and can start spamming his stab move to nuke things.

I would pick Entei if i am looking for a wallbreaker who has some value against offensive teams as well and is not a Mega. There isnt much competition in that category, its basicly just Lando-I, Dnite and probably Keldeo.

Even if i were to agree that Dragonite outclasses Entei in everything, we re not discussing Entei to move up to A, its not even about moving him to B which would still be a whole rank below Dnite, its about moving him to C+.

You can mention the cons of all the late-game cleaners i mentioned all you want, but at the end of the day, they are still way better at their job than Entei. Both Talonflame and Dragonite are comparable to Entei, because both are strong physical attackers with priority. Dragonite makes up for having to rely on Outrage for power with its excellent coverage, which makes most Steel-types and some other checks think twice before switching in. Azumarill gets OHKOed by ThunderPunch, Ferrothorn by Fire Punch, Heatran by Earthquake / Superpower, Mega Scizor by Fire Punch, etc, so walling Dragonite is not easy at all, in fact it's much harder than walling Entei. Dragonite being Ice weak being a big con because other good Pokemon are also weak to Ice is a really bad excuse for using Entei over Dragonite. Entei has very common weaknesses too you, namely Ground and Water, and there are a ton of excellent Pokemon that share those weaknesses, so your point is moot.

What makes Crawdaunt and Weavile more effective? They are more reliable or less outclassed in what they do. Name another Pursuit user with 125 Speed, one that can beat the majority of offensive Pokemon, and also has Ice-type priority. Weavile's Speed, great coverage, decent power, and priority make it a pain in the ass to face for many offensive teams, and even for some balanced teams if it carries Pursuit. Focusing on Weavile's frailty is like focusing on Greninja's frailty to justify why it's bad, so i hope i don't even have to explain why your reasoning makes no sense. Crawdaunt is a very effective wallbreaker that needs zero support to do its job, but has problems against offensive teams because of it's frailty and because it's so slow, making it very match up dependent.

Finally, Entei is not even a good wallbreaker because of its plethora of checks and counters that are everywhere, and it doesn't deserve to be in B- not only because it's outclassed by Pokemon such as Talonflame and Dragonite, but also because it's not on par with the other offensive Pokemon in B-.