Why include those two top ladder matches? Delphox didn't even see the field on one game (but it did show how scary BU Krook can be), and failed to break a boosting sweeper in the other.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter KM
- Start date
- Status
thank you for noticing :) I fixed it.
Cacturne for C: I really think with the departure of Slowbro, Cacturne should go down to C-Rank. It's niche was hard countering CroCune and Slowbro all in one, but with the departure of Bro, Toxicroak is an infinitely better option to counter CroCune, especially since SubCm is picking up some popularity to carry coverage for grasses. I think it still has a niche as something that can do that, but it seems out of place with stuff like Fletch/Zoro/Amoongus/etc.
I'm also seconding the fuck out of Avalugg being removed from the list, there's next to no reason to use it, since even with it's monstrous defense stat it can't take most neutral special hits and it's typing leaves it without much use in walling things.
I'm also seconding the fuck out of Avalugg being removed from the list, there's next to no reason to use it, since even with it's monstrous defense stat it can't take most neutral special hits and it's typing leaves it without much use in walling things.
i am not dispting this, bur why is virizion a ranked? i always found that aas a grass type it was pretty poor, because a it couldnt handle scald burn like a shaymin or a rotom mow could, limiting its ability to check bulky waters. the special set requires the use of focus blast and the weak giga drain. i havent used it since last gen but that sort of thing hasnt changed.
Lum Berry SD Virizion capitalizes on the metagame very well.
- Slowbro and Mew are gone. Virizion feels safer in this meta.
- Plethora of bulky waters to set up on (Suicune, Swampert, Empoleon)
- 129 SpDef allows it to survive a lot of surprising hits from Special attackers
- Good check to Hydreigon
- Good speed tier
Supporting these changes, Heracross leaving UU made Granbull not as important, and the rise of Steel-types are not helping it, Gligar walls a truckload of physical attackers, has U-turn for momentum, and can surprise special attackers with SDef sets, and Krookodile threatens physical attackers and traps them with Pursuit.B --> B+
Gligar has been fitting fantastically on many cores, as people are starting to realize that SR and Defog shouldn't be used on the same set. U-turn has been making a comeback, and synergizes well with a lot of U-turners and especially Volt Switchers. SpDef Gligar has also become an intriguing set, making it a very efficient mixed wall that can take on LO Hydreigon while acting as the best Mega Amph counter in the tier (HP Ice is shit). The set is still able to counter Lucario, one of the hardest Pokemon to even check, so I think it's time for people to stop hating on Gligar because of its NFE status and let it rise to B+
A --> A+
Anybody who has been playing recently has noticed the drastic influx of Krookodile, with CB, SR, and Scarf all becoming top tier sets that fit onto teams to provide a sturdy Luke check, Pursuit support, and strong EQ/Knock Offs. Thanks to Intimidate, it can even trap Jirachi and Crobat which can sometimes be the only roadblocks for Fighting-types like Lucario and Grass-types like Roserade and Shaymin.
B+ --> B
While Hydreigon is still plenty used, Granbull was moreso for the double duty that it had against Heracross. Jirachi becoming the best Pokemon in the tier as well as sets like SubCM Jirachi, SD Cobalion, and NP Luke becoming much more viable has also kind of put a damper on it. The overall metagame shift has pushed Granbull back down to obscurity, and it's time for it to drop just a tad more
Also bringing up another mon for discussion: Ludicolo. This thing works very well on rain teams due to its wide coverage and STAB Hydro Pump (or a surprise Waterfall on SD sets), as well as Swift Swim. It appreciates team support to remove checks and counters as well as hazards, similar to Shedinja and Slurpuff, and it partners well with Azelf which can easily set up rain and rocks. I could see this thing in C Rank, maybe even B- rank with fellow rain sweeper Kingdra.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kingdra-gp-2-2.3517041/
Now that Togekiss is BL, can we add Togetic back to C rank? If I recall correctly the only reason Togetic was unranked in the first place was because it was outclassed by its evolution, so now that Togekiss is no longer in the tier I see no reason why Togetic shouldn't be added back in.
Iron Tail and Flash Cannon says hi
Hydreigon, with it's versatile moveset and 100% wallbreaking ability has the potential (given the right circumstances) to get past EVERY mon in the tier. A rank or even A+ rank pokemon cannot do that. S-rank is where it stays, friend.
Fairies arent THAT hard to play around, and if you do, it's very much worth it, what with Hydra's good typing, movepool, power, and bulk. hydra stays IMO.
About Kingdra: It's a pretty neat poke, but hydra is almost too good to not use, and stacking weaknesses is never a good idea, and it's movepool is horsesheit.
About Kingdra: It's a pretty neat poke, but hydra is almost too good to not use, and stacking weaknesses is never a good idea, and it's movepool is horsesheit.
Vapereon to A- rank
- Has the capability to wall every electric scarfer in the game, which says a ton about its bulk.
- Permanent suicune check - access to baton pass ensures you win pp wars
- did I mention that wish/baton-pass is scary good?
- High hp allows for mix bulk sets which prevents 2kos from both ends of the offensive spectra
- Scald is scald, and is automatically a booster in viability
- Roar can be used as well over baton pass with moderate effectiveness
I agree with most of your points, but does vaporeon really counter electric type scarfers? Doesn't make much sense :P
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 76+ SpD Vaporeon: 236-282 (50.8 - 60.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- protect prevents this from happening
- This is just 76 evs, which is the set that I run.
Pardon me going off-course but this is a question I've been dying to ask: Why was Thundurus-T banned?
Time for updates! Shoutout to Omfuga for a lot of these suggestions. :]
B+ to A- | Kyurem really just keeps getting better and better in the current metagame. When it comes to punching holes, it does its job very well, with great coverage in the current metagame and serving as one of the best wallbreakers in the current metagame with its Specs set, it has very few switch-ins, even on balanced teams, unless they have the fat blob known as Blissey, but at this point in the metagame, we've come to a point where Blissey has become more and more easy to deal with, which I will explain in my other noms below. But anyways, not even common switch-ins to other Dragon-types like Hydreigon are safe from Kyurem, as a Specs Ice Beam 2HKOs standard Florges after rocks (unless i'm doing it wrong lol), and Aromatisse isn't safe for obvious reasons.
Kyurem isn't just limited to its Specs set, however; it can serve as a good revenge killer with its Scarf set, although tying with Darmanitan and being outsped by Scarf Hydreigon is a bit annoying, and can also serve as a good mixed wallbreaker, luring in the aformentioned Fairy-types with Iron Head, and being able to recover its health and switch moves sets it apart from the Specs set, considering one of Kyurem's only flaws is its SR set.
Kyurem isn't really a defensive slouch, either, despite its decent at best typing; 125 / 90 / 90 defenses are nothing to scoff at, and it can make a decent stallbreaker with its SubRoost set (although I don't really like this set), and can switch into the Electric-types, such as Raikou and Rotom-C that are currently increasing in usage. Definitely deserved.
B+ to A- | King UU kinda hit the nail on everything, so there's not much to say, although having great mixed bulk and serving as a great pivot in Baton Pass is really good in the current meta, and can stall out a fair amount of offensive mons with Toxic + Protect.
A- to B+ | The move in general to A- was somewhat questionable, but I think it was somewhat justified, considering how hyped the Bulky-Water setup was.
Anyways, Virizion is moving down due to its general lack of power, being somewhat frail on the physical side, and generally not doing much against hyper offensive teams; it's easily checked by common Scarfers such as Darmanitan and Jirachi, as well as Pokemon that are faster than it, mainly Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl, if it can come in safely. As eaglehawk said, it is somewhat situational, and kind of struggles if it can't find anything to switch into to capitalize on. Its weakness to common attacking types also really limits it.
B to B+ | Mega Abomasnow is really an underrated threat in the current metagame, and has probably deserved to move up for a while now. It really stands out as a hole puncher, with its great offensive STABs and humongous offensive stats. In particular, the Swords Dance set shreds common balance teams apart, and also serves as a great late game cleaner as well, considering a +2 Ice Shard does more than you think when its checks have been weakened or have been KOd.
A lot of people think its typing hold it back, but in a sense it also makes benefits it, in the sense that it has key resistances to Water-, Grass-, Ground-, and Electric-types, which give it a lot of opportunities to set up.
B to B+ | Ever since the departure of Mew, Cresselia stands out as the premier Psychic-type wall in the tier, and arguably has a few advantages over it; it isn't as worn down easily with its ability Levitate, making it immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes damage, which is a godsend considering how common the Spikestacking teams are at the moment. Arguably, its best set is SubCM, which capitalizes on Cresselia's already massive bulk and makes it nearly impossible to take down if it manages to set up enough, and just steamrolls balance and stall teams, due to the fact that it's hard to wear it down thanks to Levitate and a surprisingly decent speed. The only real drawback is that it has to choose between recovery or coverage, which are both kinda hard to forgo. I don't really think I can move it up any further, though, considering it can't do anything to common Steel-types.
B to B+ | While a lot of people may think Gligar lost one of its main niches in being the best Hera switch in, it's recently had a surge in usage increase due to the SpDef SR set, which provides common bulky offense teams with a reliable SR setter and pivot, and stands out from other SR users like Jirachi and Nidoqueen with its access to reliable recovery, and decent defensive typing.
A to B+ | This may seem a little bit harsh, but me and a couple other people have kinda realized this thing was kinda bad. It faces competiton with Alakazam as an offensive Psychic-type, despite it being more powerful, due to the fact that Espeon is 10 points slower which leaves it a lot more susceptible to base 115s, such as Azelf. Honestly, its best set is EspeJump (CM Pass), but even then that's not so good with Jirachi being practically everywhere.
A to A- | While some may argue that it holds balance and stall teams together (hint: it doesn't), and it basically made 90% of all special attackers worse, it's still not very good. Not only does it essentially force you to run balance / stall, which right now aren't that good (or at least stall), it gives free turns to common special attackers; Nidoqueen gets up Rocks, Stoise spins on it, Amphy pivots, etc, and really hates the huge amount of Lucarios and Mienshaos in the current metagame. It's really just the epitome of passive.
Kyurem isn't just limited to its Specs set, however; it can serve as a good revenge killer with its Scarf set, although tying with Darmanitan and being outsped by Scarf Hydreigon is a bit annoying, and can also serve as a good mixed wallbreaker, luring in the aformentioned Fairy-types with Iron Head, and being able to recover its health and switch moves sets it apart from the Specs set, considering one of Kyurem's only flaws is its SR set.
Kyurem isn't really a defensive slouch, either, despite its decent at best typing; 125 / 90 / 90 defenses are nothing to scoff at, and it can make a decent stallbreaker with its SubRoost set (although I don't really like this set), and can switch into the Electric-types, such as Raikou and Rotom-C that are currently increasing in usage. Definitely deserved.
Anyways, Virizion is moving down due to its general lack of power, being somewhat frail on the physical side, and generally not doing much against hyper offensive teams; it's easily checked by common Scarfers such as Darmanitan and Jirachi, as well as Pokemon that are faster than it, mainly Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl, if it can come in safely. As eaglehawk said, it is somewhat situational, and kind of struggles if it can't find anything to switch into to capitalize on. Its weakness to common attacking types also really limits it.
A lot of people think its typing hold it back, but in a sense it also makes benefits it, in the sense that it has key resistances to Water-, Grass-, Ground-, and Electric-types, which give it a lot of opportunities to set up.
Kyurem, I agree with. I'd go so far as to say it is THE best wallbreaker in the tier, since Outrage off base 130 is just silly (hint, its Outrage is literally as powerful as Garchomp's), and the only Fairy that can stand up to Iron Head (PDef Aromatisse) buckles under Ice Beam. In general, there are no walls safe from the LO mixed set. You can really only revenge it.Time for updates! Shoutout to Omfuga for a lot of these suggestions. :]
B+ to A- | Kyurem really just keeps getting better and better in the current metagame. When it comes to punching holes, it does its job very well, with great coverage in the current metagame and serving as one of the best wallbreakers in the current metagame with its Specs set, it has very few switch-ins, even on balanced teams, unless they have the fat blob known as Blissey, but at this point in the metagame, we've come to a point where Blissey has become more and more easy to deal with, which I will explain in my other noms below. But anyways, not even common switch-ins to other Dragon-types like Hydreigon are safe from Kyurem, as a Specs Ice Beam 2HKOs standard Florges after rocks (unless i'm doing it wrong lol), and Aromatisse isn't safe for obvious reasons.
Kyurem isn't just limited to its Specs set, however; it can serve as a good revenge killer with its Scarf set, although tying with Darmanitan and being outsped by Scarf Hydreigon is a bit annoying, and can also serve as a good mixed wallbreaker, luring in the aformentioned Fairy-types with Iron Head, and being able to recover its health and switch moves sets it apart from the Specs set, considering one of Kyurem's only flaws is its SR set.
Kyurem isn't really a defensive slouch, either, despite its decent at best typing; 125 / 90 / 90 defenses are nothing to scoff at, and it can make a decent stallbreaker with its SubRoost set (although I don't really like this set), and can switch into the Electric-types, such as Raikou and Rotom-C that are currently increasing in usage. Definitely deserved.
B+ to A- | King UU kinda hit the nail on everything, so there's not much to say, although having great mixed bulk and serving as a great pivot in Baton Pass is really good in the current meta, and can stall out a fair amount of offensive mons with Toxic + Protect.
A- to B+ | The move in general to A- was somewhat questionable, but I think it was somewhat justified, considering how hyped the Bulky-Water setup was.
Anyways, Virizion is moving down due to its general lack of power, being somewhat frail on the physical side, and generally not doing much against hyper offensive teams; it's easily checked by common Scarfers such as Darmanitan and Jirachi, as well as Pokemon that are faster than it, mainly Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl, if it can come in safely. As eaglehawk said, it is somewhat situational, and kind of struggles if it can't find anything to switch into to capitalize on. Its weakness to common attacking types also really limits it.
B to B+ | Mega Abomasnow is really an underrated threat in the current metagame, and has probably deserved to move up for a while now. It really stands out as a hole puncher, with its great offensive STABs and humongous offensive stats. In particular, the Swords Dance set shreds common balance teams apart, and also serves as a great late game cleaner as well, considering a +2 Ice Shard does more than you think when its checks have been weakened or have been KOd.
A lot of people think its typing hold it back, but in a sense it also makes benefits it, in the sense that it has key resistances to Water-, Grass-, Ground-, and Electric-types, which give it a lot of opportunities to set up.
B to B+ | Ever since the departure of Mew, Cresselia stands out as the premier Psychic-type wall in the tier, and arguably has a few advantages over it; it isn't as worn down easily with its ability Levitate, making it immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes damage, which is a godsend considering how common the Spikestacking teams are at the moment. Arguably, its best set is SubCM, which capitalizes on Cresselia's already massive bulk and makes it nearly impossible to take down if it manages to set up enough, and just steamrolls balance and stall teams, due to the fact that it's hard to wear it down thanks to Levitate and a surprisingly decent speed. The only real drawback is that it has to choose between recovery or coverage, which are both kinda hard to forgo. I don't really think I can move it up any further, though, considering it can't do anything to common Steel-types.
B to B+ | While a lot of people may think Gligar lost one of its main niches in being the best Hera switch in, it's recently had a surge in usage increase due to the SpDef SR set, which provides common bulky offense teams with a reliable SR setter and pivot, and stands out from other SR users like Jirachi and Nidoqueen with its access to reliable recovery, and decent defensive typing.
A to B+ | This may seem a little bit harsh, but me and a couple other people have kinda realized this thing was kinda bad. It faces competiton with Alakazam as an offensive Psychic-type, despite it being more powerful, due to the fact that Espeon is 10 points slower which leaves it a lot more susceptible to base 115s, such as Azelf. Honestly, its best set is EspeJump (CM Pass), but even then that's not so good with Jirachi being practically everywhere.
A to A- | While some may argue that it holds balance and stall teams together (hint: it doesn't), and it basically made 90% of all special attackers worse, it's still not very good. Not only does it essentially force you to run balance / stall, which right now aren't that good (or at least stall), it gives free turns to common special attackers; Nidoqueen gets up Rocks, Stoise spins on it, Amphy pivots, etc, and really hates the huge amount of Lucarios and Mienshaos in the current metagame. It's really just the epitome of passive.
Your analysis of Espeon is a little... Off. First, it's WEAKER than Alakazam. 130 > 135. Second, you didn't touch on its Magic Bounce. You just said it faced competition from Alakazam as an offensive Psychic type with barely any elaboration. I'll admit that I don't play well with Espeon, but what exactly knocks Espeon out of A past A- into B+?
Lord of Bays i thought espe was a little bit higher in terms of special attack, my bad. As to how Alakazam is better, its access to Focus Blast lets it check Steel-types such as Empoleon and Mega Aggron, and Alakazam just generally does better against offensive teams due to its higher speed and the fact that Alakazam doesn't take any damage from hazards, status, etc. , letting it set up a CM with much less risk, while Espeon can just deflect them, which in some cases is better, but Espeon's not gonna be willing to switch in to block hazards every single time as it's fairly predictable and easy to take advantage of with its poor defense. Finally, the overall utility of being able to stop a sweeper dead in their tracks late-game (+2 Luke, for example) just makes Alakazam much more desirable over Espeon, as well as Zam's access to a support movepool that lets it mess around with the opponent (Encoring a SR, T-waving offensive mons to ease prediction, Taunt to prevent set up in general).
I'm fairly certain there were points that I didn't address, but I'm tired as hell so if I missed any I'll post them tomorrow.
I'm fairly certain there were points that I didn't address, but I'm tired as hell so if I missed any I'll post them tomorrow.
tbh Bouffalant I've been messing around with Dual Screens Espeon, and I can definitely say that it is the go-to dual screener in this metagame simply because Espeon's screens are essentially unstoppable. With stuff like Lucario, Haxorus, Cloyster, (insert boosting sweeper) running around in the metagame, it amplifies their threat level even more. I would vouch for A- simply because it makes an entire playstyle so much more viable (not to also mention reliable) now.
Nah, dude, that pretty much nailed it on the head. Thanks.
I do want to bring up Kyurem again, and nominate him for A. Strictly speaking, the only two Pokemon this mixed set I'm about to list he can't 2HKO from full in UU off the top of my head are SpDef Forretress, Cresselia (needs mixed bulk), and a few bulky waters, most notably Alomomola and Suicune. 252/252+ Vaporeon can theoretically survive two Outrages, especially if it starts abusing Protect, but Stealth Rock makes even that sketchy.
Kyurem @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Iron Head
- Outrage
Maximum oversaiyan into Special Attack, enough EVs to beat Nidoking with a Hasty Nature, and the rest dumped into Attack to make Outrage and Iron Head hit harder. Viable alternatives include running a Special Attack-boosting nature and 216 Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Lucario (my personal favorite), dropping Attack EVs into HP to make it bulkier (0 Atk LO Outrage still 2HKOs Blissey, the main reason to run Outrage), and running Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor over Iron Head to hit physically defensive bulky waters better. Speaking of which, Alomomola will be 2HKO'd by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage if it is only physically bulky, and Suicune by the same if it doesn't have a Calm Mind up or Rests on Draco.
This is the only Kyurem set I've run in months and it continues to absolutely thrash the metagame. While Kyurem's physical movepool is fairly barren, you can still use that to catch every special wall by surprise, run a Choice Specs set, or the classic SubRoost, which unlike some other Sub users can still afford to run a TON of speed given Kyurem's ultra-meaty HP. Really, the only reasons Hydreigon is more popular is because it has U-turn and it isn't crippled by Ice typing. Give Kyurem a try, it's badass.
I do want to bring up Kyurem again, and nominate him for A. Strictly speaking, the only two Pokemon this mixed set I'm about to list he can't 2HKO from full in UU off the top of my head are SpDef Forretress, Cresselia (needs mixed bulk), and a few bulky waters, most notably Alomomola and Suicune. 252/252+ Vaporeon can theoretically survive two Outrages, especially if it starts abusing Protect, but Stealth Rock makes even that sketchy.
Kyurem @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Iron Head
- Outrage
Maximum oversaiyan into Special Attack, enough EVs to beat Nidoking with a Hasty Nature, and the rest dumped into Attack to make Outrage and Iron Head hit harder. Viable alternatives include running a Special Attack-boosting nature and 216 Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Lucario (my personal favorite), dropping Attack EVs into HP to make it bulkier (0 Atk LO Outrage still 2HKOs Blissey, the main reason to run Outrage), and running Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor over Iron Head to hit physically defensive bulky waters better. Speaking of which, Alomomola will be 2HKO'd by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage if it is only physically bulky, and Suicune by the same if it doesn't have a Calm Mind up or Rests on Draco.
This is the only Kyurem set I've run in months and it continues to absolutely thrash the metagame. While Kyurem's physical movepool is fairly barren, you can still use that to catch every special wall by surprise, run a Choice Specs set, or the classic SubRoost, which unlike some other Sub users can still afford to run a TON of speed given Kyurem's ultra-meaty HP. Really, the only reasons Hydreigon is more popular is because it has U-turn and it isn't crippled by Ice typing. Give Kyurem a try, it's badass.
uh i 100% disagree with the espeon move, I could see a- but not b+ in any way lol
the amount of shit that it can do that zam can't is pretty insane. focus blast is a weak argument given that you're better off running dgleam most of the time anyway, and on the other hand, espeon has far more utility than zam. The most important difference is the access to baton pass, which allows espeon to run an extremely effective cmpass set (either offensive or defensive) that both bops things hard and synergizes well. baton pass is also invaluable because of its synergy with magic bounce, allowing espeon to become a valued member of volt-turn teams and giving it extra utility.
i don't really understand the zam comparison to begin with - they really aren't all too alike. sashzam (which is essentially the only set anyone uses) is the epitome of safety and reliability, while espeon is extremely highrisk-highreward. The only thing somewhat alike is their stats and typing, but the way they play is really different. If you've been playing espeon like you play zam, I can see why you want it ranked so low lol.
the rest of the changes I agree with and will implement if no one has any arguments
the amount of shit that it can do that zam can't is pretty insane. focus blast is a weak argument given that you're better off running dgleam most of the time anyway, and on the other hand, espeon has far more utility than zam. The most important difference is the access to baton pass, which allows espeon to run an extremely effective cmpass set (either offensive or defensive) that both bops things hard and synergizes well. baton pass is also invaluable because of its synergy with magic bounce, allowing espeon to become a valued member of volt-turn teams and giving it extra utility.
i don't really understand the zam comparison to begin with - they really aren't all too alike. sashzam (which is essentially the only set anyone uses) is the epitome of safety and reliability, while espeon is extremely highrisk-highreward. The only thing somewhat alike is their stats and typing, but the way they play is really different. If you've been playing espeon like you play zam, I can see why you want it ranked so low lol.
the rest of the changes I agree with and will implement if no one has any arguments
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