Metagame Almost Any Ability

[GlalieGoesBoom]

sample team submission

basic premise of team is to pivot a bunch until ceru can come in and kill something
regen corv for somewhat consistent defog, empoleon walls most special attackers and also provides rocks
Wbb gliscor helps with the team's crippling weakness to dland lando, and to beat offensive fires without risking barraskeda. Can also be fluffy to help with iron boulder and eat crunches from chien pao. Toxic spikes + taunt mess up teams without an absorber and give ceru opportunities to come in.
Mystic water barraskewda is to surprise dland fires who come in to block flip turn, as offensive momentum is more important than damage boost. Can easily be changed to band.
Dazzling moon to help with dragonite and to surprise chien pao.

 

[Gambit]

Well since everyone else is submitting their teams, why don't I as well?
(Btw, I'm currently No. 27 with this team, still trying to get Top 10)

is your standard RegenVest user with Mirror Coat cause its funny.

standard as well, I used both Intimidate and Fluffy, but I've always preferred Fluffy.

is a tad bit weird with Boomburst but no CM but it actually does much more damage than you would think it does.

is my favorite mon by far. The sub catches SO many people off guard and its really nice and EQ trigger Earth Eater. I'm thinking about switching T-Punch with Ice Punch to hit Tusk, Garchomp, and Latios since I barely used T-Punch anyways.

is a bit different since rather than being defensive, its offensive with no item to beat Ceruledge. WBB also counters Cinderace, Ogerpon-H, Iron Moth, and in some cases Volcarona.

is the standard scarf user with EQ over Stone Edge because I don't trust 80% accurate moves.

peaked Top 4

 

[cat]

do not free restricted abilities lol. They're just a complex ban in sheep's clothes - you're saying that you'll ban imposter on every pokemon except ditto, pheal on everything except Gliscor and Breloom, etc. This is just gonna lead to The Can Of Worms being opened and whats next? free Triage but it can't be used with BD? Free Flutter but it can't use Shadow ball and Moonblast? Gimmicky's and QT's post are really good posts that explain why restrictions shouldn't be implemented and I wholeheartedly agree with their posts.

 

[Clas]

do not free restricted abilities lol. They're just a complex ban in sheep's clothes - you're saying that you'll ban imposter on every pokemon except ditto, pheal on everything except Gliscor and Breloom, etc. This is just gonna lead to The Can Of Worms being opened and whats next? free Triage but it can't be used with BD? Free Flutter but it can't use Shadow ball and Moonblast? Gimmicky's and QT's post are really good posts that explain why restrictions shouldn't be implemented and I wholeheartedly agree with their posts.

respecfully cat while im neutral on the topic this is just complete waffle, there is no can of worms being opened. this is restricting to purely native users, not saying that ceruledge can use triage but not iron hands or ursaluna. not only that, but policy wouldnt allow that either, so even if it was an idea it wouldnt be implemented

a better reason would be that restricted abilities wouldnt really add much to the meta past making ghold now broken (remember when gag was free and ghold ran it? i do) and magnet pull being banned in a tier for a relevant reason with no real opposition for its ban

 

[skippergamez]

Restrictions are just an awful idea imo, they go against the identity of the tier for one, and just muddies the tier only because you wanna use magnet pull magnezone like?

 

[KaenSoul]

Theoretically, all that the proposed ability description does is make it so that some Pokemon arbitrarily don't have to have the magic ability changed item on them... for what reason?

Under that logic can't you just say that, you just didn't give them the item? Ingame there are ability changing items, the ability capsule and ability patch, like any other item, you can decide to use it or not.

Restrictions are quite consistent across OMs nowadays and I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding on this thread, so the basics you guys should be aware when discussing them is:
1) Only one type of restriction will exists in the format. Only OMM have multiple because they mix rules from different tiers.
2) Restrictions only exclude the element from being part of the gimmick of the format. You won't be able to exclude anything but Abilities in this case, so don't bring moves and Pokémon as an argument here.
3) They aren't an all or nothing, abilities can still be banned even if some are restricted. If Magnet Pull is broken according to the community, then it can stay banned, while Huge Power is allowed in Azumarill.

I'm not here to discuss if any element will be balanced or not, just want to make clear how tiering here works, restrictions exists in a lot of OMs and they haven't self-destruct or anything, we know how to handle them.

 

[April]

Under that logic can't you just say that, you just didn't give them the item? Ingame there are ability changing items, the ability capsule and ability patch, like any other item, you can decide to use it or not.

You can say that you didn't give them the item, yes, but AAA works under the assumption that all Pokemon have been given the item. In practice, all that the proposed change does is add a rule that a select few Pokemon are exempt from having the item used on them, which is inconsistent and messy. This isn't a restriction in the same way, say, STABmons is. Restricted moves are the best option in STAB because Pokemon intrinsically have access to their base movepool, with extra STAB moves added on top. AAA works differently; almost any ability is not added on to the Pokemon's native abilities so much as their native abilities are replaced by access to all non-banned abilities. Pokemon do not have intrinsic access to their base abilities here, so I very strongly feel the restriction is inconsistent.

 

[Isaiah]

almost any ability is not added on to the Pokemon's native abilities so much as their native abilities are replaced by access to all non-banned abilities. Pokemon do not have intrinsic access to their base abilities here, so I very strongly feel the restriction is inconsistent.

Well, this is only the case because it was decided to be so the last time this subject was discussed. We could just as easily set the premise to "All Pokemon have access to Wonder Guard only" and that becomes "correct" because it's what has been decided. With restricted abilities added, the premise would change to "...along with their original movepools, Pokemon gain access to almost any ability in the game". It's not necessary for the metagame to function, but that doesn't mean we can't make the shift if there's enough support (gen 6/7 AAA were perfectly functional with this approach).

 

[Giagantic]

You can say that you didn't give them the item, yes, but AAA works under the assumption that all Pokemon have been given the item. In practice, all that the proposed change does is add a rule that a select few Pokemon are exempt from having the item used on them, which is inconsistent and messy. This isn't a restriction in the same way, say, STABmons is. Restricted moves are the best option in STAB because Pokemon intrinsically have access to their base movepool, with extra STAB moves added on top. AAA works differently; almost any ability is not added on to the Pokemon's native abilities so much as their native abilities are replaced by access to all non-banned abilities. Pokemon do not have intrinsic access to their base abilities here, so I very strongly feel the restriction is inconsistent.

I'd argue it is more inconsistent to remove access to an intrinsic part of a Pokemon's kit, and also argue that STABmon is a fair comparison.

Pokemon do not have intrinsic access to their base abilities here, so I very strongly feel the restriction is inconsistent.

This is just an archaic rule from the past, one that I'd argue never made much sense and is entirely semantic rather then practical.

 

[April]

Well, this is only the case because it was decided to be so the last time this subject was discussed. We could just as easily set the premise to "All Pokemon have access to Wonder Guard only" and that becomes "correct" because it's what has been decided. With restricted abilities added, the premise would change to "...along with their original movepools, Pokemon gain access to almost any ability in the game". It's not necessary for the metagame to function, but that doesn't mean we can't make the shift if there's enough support (gen 6/7 AAA were perfectly functional with this approach).

Yeah, I'm familiar with this change and the fact that the premise could be changed, but I strongly feel that there's no need to do so. The current premise works, and it works well. People are happy with the tier working as it does now, and Gens 6/7 have both faced plenty of criticism (justified, IMO) for their approach to the concept of the tier. Changing the premise of the tier doesn't add enough to be worth the headache and the change to AAA as a concept, and if we can try to avoid restrictions, we absolutely should.

 

[zezaktest]

do not free restricted abilities lol. They're just a complex ban in sheep's clothes - you're saying that you'll ban imposter on every pokemon except ditto, pheal on everything except Gliscor and Breloom, etc. This is just gonna lead to The Can Of Worms being opened and whats next? free Triage but it can't be used with BD? Free Flutter but it can't use Shadow ball and Moonblast? Gimmicky's and QT's post are really good posts that explain why restrictions shouldn't be implemented and I wholeheartedly agree with their posts.

Much like what Clas said, how would freeing native user’s abilities to themselves open a can of worms? This whole “can of worms” argument I’ve seen parotted hundreds of times is completely anti-discussion and absolutely says nothing of value. What about “allowing native users of banned abilities to have access to those abilities” is confusing? It is completely coherent and won’t allow “Flutter Mane to be used but it can’t use Shadow Ball or Moonblast”. Please do find good points to not support this, not this absolutely nothing burger of a point. This goes to everyone who uses this argument.
Now for my thoughts. I must say I am completely and totally biased and I think that complex bans can be done correctly. Not with this “Ohhh but it might make us able to use Mewtwo without Psychic moves!!”. There are a couple of these abilties I do not support being allowed to their native users, specifically the trapping ones and Good as Gold, for obvious reasons. Poison Heal Gliscor I do think can be a positive to this meta, being another physically defense flying type that isn’t a metal bird, and knock abosrber. All in all this can be done in a smart way, and benefit this meta.

 

[skippergamez]

Ok, but why should Gliscor get special treatment? Why should Magnezone get special treatment? If you want more PhysDef walls that aren’t steel birds, unban Poison Heal! If you think the steel birds are too pesky, unban magnet pull!

If we decide to change it to “Pokemon get to change their ability to almost any ability” then that makes sense, but it’s not, it’s “Pokemon get access to almost any ability”

I view AAA as Balanced Hackmons but just changing the ability, mechanically. So therefore, we shouldn’t do restrictions.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Ok, but why should Gliscor get special treatment? Why should Magnezone get special treatment? If you want more PhysDef walls that aren’t steel birds, unban Poison Heal! If you think the steel birds are too pesky, unban magnet pull!

If we decide to change it to “Pokemon get to change their ability to almost any ability” then that makes sense, but it’s not, it’s “Pokemon get access to almost any ability”

I view AAA as Balanced Hackmons but just changing the ability, mechanically. So therefore, we shouldn’t do restrictions.

There is a difference here in the type of restriction.

BH doesn't have restrictions for 3 reasons:

• The majority of things that get legalized with a native learner clause (eg. Fillet Away Veluza, Libero Cinderace, etc) exist entirely to complicate the banlist, because they are at best cheese on otherwise bad or useless mons.
• The rest are broken with their native tools and are just going to get banned anyway (Hadron + RV Miraidon, Parental Bond MKang, probably even Last Respects Basculegion).
• Native Learner Clause would have to apply to both abilities and moves, which has zero precedent and gives even more room than usual to complicate tiering. Here in AAA, it's only applying for abilities.

In BH, the gap between "its just another bad option" and "this is broken" is far wider to the point where the potential value added is essentially zero. This likely isn't true with AAA; given the lower power level, things like PH Gliscor and GaG Gholdengo are no longer as severe outliers as something like Rising Voltage Miraidon. There will obviously be things that just don't get freed even with the restriction (eg. Shadow Tag), but the proportion of inoffensive things that native clause would allow is significantly higher. I'm really not a fan of native clause myself, but this point just doesn't make any sense.

Also on the middle bit: that's the argument proposed in the above posts. "Magic Ability Capsule" no longer applies because you now have to account for "Azumarill's Ability Capsule" or "Medicham's Ability Capsule" that have the standard ability pool + Huge/Pure Power; the definition could simply change to something that facilitates native abilities, and that's just the tier's new definition.

 

[Giagantic]

Ok, but why should Gliscor get special treatment? Why should Magnezone get special treatment? If you want more PhysDef walls that aren’t steel birds, unban Poison Heal! If you think the steel birds are too pesky, unban magnet pull!

If we decide to change it to “Pokemon get to change their ability to almost any ability” then that makes sense, but it’s not, it’s “Pokemon get access to almost any ability”

I view AAA as Balanced Hackmons but just changing the ability, mechanically. So therefore, we shouldn’t do restrictions.

Gliscor isn't getting special treatment, Magnezone's Magnet Pull is almost assuredly getting banned. This change is a low impact, consistency change to match with the times and for the sake of the future. Like for example if Mega's were to be released, or considering the increasing power of abilities with each generation (look at Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu for example consistently used their native ability).

This isn't complex anything, just a change in policy and approach to tiering.

 

[UT]

This isn't complex anything, just a change in policy and approach to tiering.

A restricted list is complex tiering. It is only allowing abilities to be used with specific mons, which is a complex ban on the ability.

I don't have much of a horse in this race, but saying this isn't a complex ban or it makes the tier more consistent is just not true. It's probably low impact yes, because realistically we're looking at Toxic Heal Gliscor and Imposter Ditto as the only meta-relevant additions (unless we get Good as Gold back too), and you can certainly defend adding a restricted list to AAA in light of STAB, MnM, and Godly Gift all having one, but call a spade a spade.

 

[Greybaum]

tl;dr don't free native abilities but only because other things are worth doing more

Most of the arguments here are poor. Arena Trap and Magnet Pull wouldn't be legal. Abilities like Good As Gold and Magic Bounce would be treated fairly by the council the way any other controversial element of the tier is. It doesn't go against the definition because the definition would change. There would be no "magic ability capsule" (which isn't even listed as a definition in the OP btw), we'd just switch to explaining it as "Swampert eats the Regenerator Fruit to replace its native ability for the day" and if Regenerator becomes broken we just remove it from the fruit market. Q: "Do we ban Gholdengo or Good as Gold?" A: Let the council decide that the same way they decided the Belly Drum/Triage situation. We don't know that action will need to be taken in the first place, but I don't think "I don't trust council to make the decision that I personally want" is a good argument against native abilities, which is the only way I can take this kind of question.
Godly Gift was established to be based off Ubers. We changed its definition to improve it. Mix & Mega was established to only work with Mega stones. We changed its definition to improve it. AAA doesn't need to adopt native abilities, but we're not breaking new ground if we decide to give it a go.

Restrictions are more complex than a regular ban, but I don't think it's quite right to refer to them as "complex bans" either. Having a ban list with stuff like "Huge Power (except on Azumarill!)" gets tedious to read through very quickly but a Restricted list would be segregated from the Ban list. It's also pretty self explanatory; it takes literal seconds to understand how it works. There's nothing complex about it and using it as an argument not to move to native abilities is overly bureaucratic when I don't think this situation benefits from that kind of approach. We move from "Banned/Legal" to "Banned/Restricted/Legal" and everyone understands the system.

Onto my own view - doing this would take a substantial amount of tiering work, and I'd rather direct that focus elsewhere. Removing Ability clause would be pretty cool to try out, and I also want to see Pokemon like Enamorus-I and Iron Bundle given another shot.

Basically: I'd rather wait until next gen to look at something like this, along with other proposals I'm sure we'll end up discussing all over again. "Should we have NAC or 1AC?", "Do we allow native abilities or not?", and something I personally want to suggest - "Should we disallow abilities that aren't legitimately found in the game?". Gamefreak didn't implement Triage into the game properly until Comfey could legally have its ability skill swapped to Ceruledge. We don't know how Desolate Land and Hydro Steam would function together if Desolate Land actually existed. Gamefreak are doing a worse and worse job of cutting out code (see also: BH having a natdex mons list) and removing unreleased abilities is a proactive way to avoid an issue that I'm confident will become a bigger problem sooner rather than later - though I imagine most people would rather keep the current system where we get to use perma weather and multi-typed Extremespeed until Gamefreak forces our hand, which I fully understand.

 

[Schpoonman]

Restrictions are more complex than a regular ban, but I don't think it's quite right to refer to them as "complex bans" either. Having a ban list with stuff like "Huge Power (except on Azumarill!)" gets tedious to read through very quickly but a Restricted list would be segregated from the Ban list. It's also pretty self explanatory; it takes literal seconds to understand how it works. There's nothing complex about it and using it as an argument not to move to native abilities is overly bureaucratic when I don't think this situation benefits from that kind of approach. We move from "Banned/Legal" to "Banned/Restricted/Legal" and everyone understands the system.

I'mma nitpick what is otherwise an excellent post, but STABmon's move banlist has more moves conditionally banned (*: Legal on native users) than it does outright bans, and there's no restriction list, just extra information on the ban list that is then left to users to further explore.

Allowing native users is a complex ban with the condition reversed. Instead of "if Y, then X is banned" we have "if NOT Y, then X is banned."

 

[Gambit]

ok can we pls just do a suspect for native abilities? we all know that nearly everyone will vote no native abilities, i just want tc badge

Jokes aside, native abilities don't sound like fun especially Good as Gold cause blocking Defog is just too good and I'd prefer to be able to remove hazards whenever I please.

 

[Acetraineraegis]

Hey, haven’t been back here in a while, how’s the metagame?

 

[cat]

just realised I forgot to send this

this is restricting to purely native users

allowing native users of banned abilities to have access to those abilities

and how exactly would you define native users? AAA is played under the assumption that every Pokemon takes this magic pill that allows you to swap to whatever ability you want, and, in a way, certain abilities are prevented from being accessed by the people in charge of tiering, which is to say, the tiering council. by allowing certain pokemon to bypass the ban on abilities just because they "natively got it" this is complex banning the ability (ie: you are banning bulbasaur from getting toxic debris, ivysaur from getting toxic debris, venusaur from getting toxic debris, and so on but you intentionally allow glimmet and glimmora to keep toxic debris.). another (albeit farfetched) way of looking at AAA is that we are playing in an alternate timeline where SV allows every pokemon to have any ability. how would you then define native users?

-

there's also totally no reason to free restricted abilities except that people want to play with pheal glisc and gag ghold or some cheese like espathra. in fact, the tiering guidelines are against freeing restricted abilities.

III) “Complex” bans/unbans are to be avoided wherever applicable.

you could argue that restricts aren't complex bans in some way or another but UT and some really old motherlove and QT posts (they are on sketchmons but w/e) do show how restricts are complex bans:

A restricted list is complex tiering. It is only allowing abilities to be used with specific mons, which is a complex ban on the ability.

I kinda agree with QT, banning a move is not complex, banning a mon is not complex, but banning the combination of a mon (or a group of mon) and a move is complex.

Again, tying this in; it's my opinion that Sketchmons shouldn't be able to break Smogon policy and do that. You don't ban something on 95% of Pokemon because it's broken on 60% of Pokemon; either <Pokemon with Shift Gear> are too strong, and thus the move needs to go entirely, or it's not and we should remove broken users This halfway legality change, however, is far worse than either decision.
In terms of complexity, I don't see why it would matter if Sketchmons bans are consistent; they're still complex. It would be consistent to ban Ubers from having moves over 60 BP, but wouldn't make it any less stupid. While obviously this isn't that bad, the only difference is in scale.

 

[Isaiah]

Sucks to already be out after 1 round in AAALT, but here are the teams I built:

Round 1: https://pokepast.es/3517f71e025fdf8d
Round 2: https://pokepast.es/fd28fe03fde75b97

 

[Isaiah]

Thanks to everyone that responded to the survey! We were able to gather 55 responses this time around.

Average score: 3.65/5
This is a slight increase from the last survey average of 3.38. We'll keep observing things and keeping up with discussion to evaluate if further action is necessary (last vote: end of January, 2-4 Do Not Suspect).

Average score: 2.84/5
This was more of a curiosity inclusion to gauge the temperature of the community on Ceruledge, and it looks firmly like no action is needed. Of course, with AAA Open starting up, we'll see if this changes.

Write-ins:

Are there any other Pokemon/abilities that you would like to see unbanned?

• Lugia (10)
• Noivern (5)
• Enamorus (4)
• Magic Bounce (1)
• Giratina (2)
• 2AC (1)

Do you have any other comments/suggestions/concerns?

• A couple of people want to try no ability clause (AKA you can use any ability as many times as you want per team)
• Someone wants Shedinja unbanned even though it doesn't exist in SV
• Roaring Moon and Hoopa got single mentions for bans
• Someone wants to unban Zacian (same tbh)
• Someone wants to unban Iron Bundle
• A couple of people want to ban Corviknight

This question actually got a decent amount of engagement on the forums as well (you should go and read those posts if you have the time), but it doesn't look particularly well supported on the survey, so there won't be any action at this time. It's still an interesting train of thought though, and will possibly make a return appearance on future surveys.

Bonus for reading this far: Welcome cumps to the AAA council! They've been a steady presence here on the forums and in the Discord, so hopefully they can continue to offer their quality opinions within council discussion/votes too :]

 

[Iynhe]

Round 1: https://pokepast.es/3517f71e025fdf8d
Round 2: https://pokepast.es/fd28fe03fde75b97

What do 104 Hp and 152 Speed (+ Timid) do on Zapdos?

 

[Time2Bonk]

What do 104 Hp and 152 Speed (+ Timid) do on Zapdos?

It gives it enough Speed to outspeed Max Speed Great Tusk, with rest in bulk is what I'm assuming

 

[Betticus IV]

I have finally done it, I have hit #1 on the AAA ladder. I am super hyped about this as this is the first time I have done this, even after sitting in the top 10 for quite a bit. I have been every place but first, and when I would go for the #1 the queue times would be insanely long or I would get discouraged after losing one or two games(and in turn like 40 elo), but today I just decided I'm gonna do it and I did. I don't care how small of an achievement this is, I'm hyped about it so I'm gonna make a post about it.

Here is the team I used to finally get there:





Mixed dnite is the truth if you aren't going for setup, and even if you are it still works as evident from Cumps (gz on making council!) dnite spread from Maybca's game. Thing also tears it up in ND AAA (which you should play!), which leads me to believe it is an actual set one should prepare for and not just a gimmick. Dumped the bulk invested in HP into spatk so it could hit harder, I am honestly not sure if this affects dnite not living any important hits, but the extra damage is nice for things such as mandi.



The gholdengo spread allows for a +2 shadow ball to 2HKO a pert after getting its vest knocked. A niche-ish interaction but I still found it useful. The spread could go down to 96 spatk but the extra bulk was meh so I just kept the dump in the spatk for other interactions. WBB no item allows for you not to get steamrolled by ceru. I initially ran colbur/lefties but realized it's more advantageous to run no item as that helps against ceru and all the knock spam. Honestly found myself wanting EE more so I could actually 1v1 the pert, but having 3 flying types that would have been greedy and cost me the fire mu.



I had initially tried boots zama as I had faced off against some hazard stack and wanted to see if boots would help. They do not. You miss out on guaranteed KOs and that causes more of a headache than not taking hazards. The flexibility in clicking moves also doesn't matter as you are getting more or less the same net damage between clicking two neutral moves w band or a neutral and super effective with boots. So again, learn from my mistakes, just run CB if you're running SoR.

This team honestly was me wanting to get nice with defensive/utility EVs/items, but realizing that is silly and it's more worth to just dump into attack to do more damage. Also wanted to expand on the idea of 'mixed' attacking mons, as I still think that teams that are able to slot in random physical/special coverage on multiple mons will fare better as the meta progresses.

This next team I used was inspired by CareerEnded's gterrain HO team, although I tweaked it to be a balance team. I used it when I was in the 1500s but wanted to share anyway as it was a fun team to use.





I was watching the Wolfey video where he uses an AV gambit and thought that maybe this could work. I had also played a game against slither wing where I had tricked their WBB gambit a scarf, and despite no passive recovery, it still had longevity, so I thought why not try it. Building off the idea of a non phys def invested WBB mon, something I touched on in my tourney team post, this is what I ended up with. The spdef investment allows one to take on 3 attack heatran very well, something this team would otherwise struggle with, with EP having a 4.1% to 3HKO. With max atk it is able to dish out quite a bit of damage that some may not expect from a defensive gambit. Steel already has a great synergy w pert, but having a fire and psychic immunity in one slot was really useful and allowed for much need breathing room when it came to defenses.



I had experimented with this mon before my games with Isaiah to see if it could work, and while I don't think it is the best, it can carve out a small niche for itself on the right team structures. Intimidate helps with non-contact physical moves (specifically ic chien, eq moon, any physical fire), which clef otherwise folds to despite investment. I didn't run moonlight on this as lefties + gterrain meant it was getting a good amount back + I did not want corv to come in for free on clef every time. Overall mon is fun/has a surprisingly good amount of positive MU's into the physical threats of the tier but lacking in actual stats + not too much flexibility in what it can run makes it not the greatest.

Notes in general: None of the mons have EQ bc of gterrain, dnite is running flame bc clef already has tbolt coverage, and this team does struggle against set-up sweepers, especially phys def ones if clef is gone.


Proof Below - Name comes from Bonehead's Bank Holiday by Oasis

#1 Lets gooo