Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Wildfiree]

I am a huge fan of Lugia but wouldn't we just be introducing a fatter Mega Latias with Boots and Tera? Edit: and Multiscale

Pretty much lol. There sheer combination of its bulk and speed gives it an opportunity to unleash a bulky wincon to the likes we never seen in ou. Considering its speed as well although the recover nerf is definitely felt on its end it’s definitely not hurt by it as much as the others considering its respective speed tier and mulitiscale which is quite frankly ridiculous for something already that naturally bulky.

 

[seth]

Hello smogonites, I am posting t you today to appeal to your desire for an enjoyable and diverse metagame. As it stands, our tier remains stagnant and frankly not fun. This sentiment can be seen throughout meta discussion and in the discord discussion channels, both in high level and casual players alike. My proposal to fix this, or at least work towards fixing this, is to release Dragapult, Kingambit, and Gholdengo into the metagame again now that a fairly long amount of time has passed. I will now give some brief points as to why these should be freed.
Kingambit: the metagame has continued to trend more and more towards offense which can handily deal with kingambit with proactive play, consistently pressuring it and denying it chances to setup and sweep. With tier defining threats like Gouging fire, raging bolt, darkrai, urshifu, etc acting as offensive checks as well as defensive counterplay through tera and it’s admittedly few defensive checks, I feel Kingambit deserves a second chance in the metagame.
Gholdengo: of the three I am discussing here, I feel most strongly this mon needs freed. Balance is probably in the worst state it’s ever been bar the short firepon bax era and gholdengo would be a huge boon for the archetype. It’s ban was already controversial, coming down to a narrow vote and, as with Kingambit, new threats running around keep it in check. While it was and arguably would be the best tera abuser in the tier, the offensive oriented meta punishes committing your tera to it much more than previously.
Dragapult: this pokemon being freed is contingent on kingambit being freed. It wasn’t a problem when both were around and it wouldn’t be now. More offense, less free setup for it, Etc. it being freed without Kingambit around would be a different case though, as we didn’t get to see how it performed in a metagame with it not around.

hidin

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

I am a huge fan of Lugia but wouldn't we just be introducing a fatter Mega Latias with Boots and Tera? Edit: and Multiscale

I don't even know why were talking about freeing . It's gonna become an effective and fusion with both insane bulk and a insane base SpAtk. It would abuse tera and boots too effectively and there's a reason why it's banned

Hello smogonites, I am posting t you today to appeal to your desire for an enjoyable and diverse metagame. As it stands, our tier remains stagnant and frankly not fun. This sentiment can be seen throughout meta discussion and in the discord discussion channels, both in high level and casual players alike. My proposal to fix this, or at least work towards fixing this, is to release Dragapult, Kingambit, and Gholdengo into the metagame again now that a fairly long amount of time has passed. I will now give some brief points as to why these should be freed.
Kingambit: the metagame has continued to trend more and more towards offense which can handily deal with kingambit with proactive play, consistently pressuring it and denying it chances to setup and sweep. With tier defining threats like Gouging fire, raging bolt, darkrai, urshifu, etc acting as offensive checks as well as defensive counterplay through tera and it’s admittedly few defensive checks, I feel Kingambit deserves a second chance in the metagame.
Gholdengo: of the three I am discussing here, I feel most strongly this mon needs freed. Balance is probably in the worst state it’s ever been bar the short firepon bax era and gholdengo would be a huge boon for the archetype. It’s ban was already controversial, coming down to a narrow vote and, as with Kingambit, new threats running around keep it in check. While it was and arguably would be the best tera abuser in the tier, the offensive oriented meta punishes committing your tera to it much more than previously.
Dragapult: this pokemon being freed is contingent on kingambit being freed. It wasn’t a problem when both were around and it wouldn’t be now. More offense, less free setup for it, Etc. it being freed without Kingambit around would be a different case though, as we didn’t get to see how it performed in a metagame with it not around.

hidin

Bruh why do you wanna free these three. was banned bc supreme overlord combined with it's offensive presence in early to mid game with knock and pursuit was terrifying iirc. For I provide a calc;

0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 188-224 (50.2 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And for just why. When did like setup? I get dd sets but it lacked ghost stab(besides phantom force and tera blast but phantom force could be easily played around and tera blast ghost forced your tera) literally specs and hex sets despite being it's only viable sets(band is suboptimal imo) were terrifying combined with it's insane speed tier(outspeeds virtually the whole non scarf meta)

 

[Fleance]

Hello smogonites, I am posting t you today to appeal to your desire for an enjoyable and diverse metagame. As it stands, our tier remains stagnant and frankly not fun. This sentiment can be seen throughout meta discussion and in the discord discussion channels, both in high level and casual players alike. My proposal to fix this, or at least work towards fixing this, is to release Dragapult, Kingambit, and Gholdengo into the metagame again now that a fairly long amount of time has passed. I will now give some brief points as to why these should be freed.
Kingambit: the metagame has continued to trend more and more towards offense which can handily deal with kingambit with proactive play, consistently pressuring it and denying it chances to setup and sweep. With tier defining threats like Gouging fire, raging bolt, darkrai, urshifu, etc acting as offensive checks as well as defensive counterplay through tera and it’s admittedly few defensive checks, I feel Kingambit deserves a second chance in the metagame.
Gholdengo: of the three I am discussing here, I feel most strongly this mon needs freed. Balance is probably in the worst state it’s ever been bar the short firepon bax era and gholdengo would be a huge boon for the archetype. It’s ban was already controversial, coming down to a narrow vote and, as with Kingambit, new threats running around keep it in check. While it was and arguably would be the best tera abuser in the tier, the offensive oriented meta punishes committing your tera to it much more than previously.
Dragapult: this pokemon being freed is contingent on kingambit being freed. It wasn’t a problem when both were around and it wouldn’t be now. More offense, less free setup for it, Etc. it being freed without Kingambit around would be a different case though, as we didn’t get to see how it performed in a metagame with it not around.

hidin

Hello good sir, I inquire about your statement upon the release of 'Gholdengo' from the prison of Ubers. You conferred to me that you believed the reason for balance being at its worst state was due to the fact that offense and HO have a wide array of threats, of which balance cannot hope to slot checks for all. I fail to see how the introduction of Gholdengo solves these issues. Almost all of the threats that balance faces are set up sweepers, which are not affected much by hazards being kept on the field, as they come in early in the game on a free turn, and set up to break through the team, before hazard damage accumulates. Other than Gholdengo's ability to keep hazards, it does not match well into most breakers, without being forced to tera + running a bulkier thunder wave set. So, the introduction of Gholdengo would likely not boost balance's place in this meta that we call home.

On the other hand, the introduction of Gholdengo would force bulkier team structures to run more SV-esque builds, with bootsspam or niche removal. The introduction of Gholdengo would heavily constrict bulkier styles while slightly boosting balance.

Lovely making your aquantance, Seth. Stream 'OPPY DAY'

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

On the other hand, the introduction of Gholdengo would force bulkier team structures to run more SV-esque builds, with bootsspam or niche removal. The introduction of Gholdengo would heavily constrict bulkier styles while slightly boosting balance.

Lovely making your aquantance, Seth. Stream 'OPPY DAY'

pls all say hi to

 

[Moyashi]

My proposal to fix this, or at least work towards fixing this, is to release Dragapult, Kingambit, and Gholdengo into the metagame again now that a fairly long amount of time has passed. I will now give some brief points as to why these should be freed.
Kingambit: the metagame has continued to trend more and more towards offense which can handily deal with kingambit with proactive play, consistently pressuring it and denying it chances to setup and sweep. With tier defining threats like Gouging fire, raging bolt, darkrai, urshifu, etc acting as offensive checks as well as defensive counterplay through tera and it’s admittedly few defensive checks, I feel Kingambit deserves a second chance in the metagame.
Gholdengo: of the three I am discussing here, I feel most strongly this mon needs freed. Balance is probably in the worst state it’s ever been bar the short firepon bax era and gholdengo would be a huge boon for the archetype. It’s ban was already controversial, coming down to a narrow vote and, as with Kingambit, new threats running around keep it in check. While it was and arguably would be the best tera abuser in the tier, the offensive oriented meta punishes committing your tera to it much more than previously.
Dragapult: this pokemon being freed is contingent on kingambit being freed. It wasn’t a problem when both were around and it wouldn’t be now. More offense, less free setup for it, Etc. it being freed without Kingambit around would be a different case though, as we didn’t get to see how it performed in a metagame with it not around.

The tier certainly has an issue with stagnation. The metagame is very offense/HO heavy due to the range of potent threats which makes bulkier/defensive playstyles less consistent, making it difficult to build these teams since there will always be a couple awkward match ups into high ranking threats that you couldn't cover. (Darkrai is also itself a major culprit for pushing teambuilding this way). Which is why, and I ask this with respect, what would unbanning these three pokemon accomplish to help with this issue of stagnation? I want to touch on each before getting to another thought I have.


We just lost our best Kingambit answer to a ban (And I don't regret kicking out the stupid defense boosting dog). Sure, offense has answers into it but what does balance have? You'd still need to stack at least two checks so it isn't just clicking Tera+SD mid game after its main roadblock is removed, which can push teambuilding in an annoying direction. I hated how much it made teambuilding dance it last time it was legal and with how teamslots are so strapped as is these days, I don't know that adding it to the tier really helps anything. I'd like to know what problems it supposedly addresses.


This doesn't even really make much sense to me since I don't know what purpose it would serve to unban it. Another mon that balance doesn't have many viable resources to respond to with. Pex and Garg and if you want, Ting-Lu but that's kinda it off the top of my head atm (and if I forgot any please correct me). Z sets are still a nightmare for these teams, and while offense sure can limit it from setting up as often, if it DOES get that boost it'll get some work done. But my problem is again, the way it would screw an already struggling playstyle. Boots Pivot sets are cool and would be nice to have, but I don't know what else it would do to help any tier issues. (Also Pult WAS legal in a non Gambit metagame).


This one is weird because I did vote ban last time it was around, and I'm not sure what I'd think if given the chance to retest it back in. It wouldn't really change the hazard game as much as it did before since it's difficult to find time to remove hazards during games anyways right now, but my concern is that while it offers some really important tools for Balance, it's also a huge nuisance to them. Last time, the discussion was between its hazard removal blocking as well as the potency of its Bulky NP sets which were a headache to deal with for Balance as it could often outlast them. And tera made this more annoying.

I feel like before even considering any unbans, we should take a long look at the tier and figure out WHY it feels stagnant and what the root causes of that are before moving forwards with any more action (after the Darkrai test anyways).

And for just why. When did like setup? I get dd sets but it lacked ghost stab(besides phantom force and tera blast but phantom force could be easily played around and tera blast ghost forced your tera) literally specs and hex sets despite being it's only viable sets(band is suboptimal imo) were terrifying combined with it's insane speed tier(outspeeds virtually the whole non scarf meta)

Before I go to bed because I have an aggrivating headache and it's late, I want to address this quickly. Dragapult when it was legal had a huge range of viable sets, from specs to boots to band (yes, band was viable and solid), but its DD sets were the most dangerous and what go it banned. It didn't innately have ghost stab but Ghostium Z gave it one time burst which was all it needed to blow through most teams pretty quickly.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Before I go to bed because I have an aggrivating headache and it's late, I want to address this quickly. Dragapult when it was legal had a huge range of viable sets, from specs to boots to band (yes, band was viable and solid), but its DD sets were the most dangerous and what go it banned. It didn't innately have ghost stab but Ghostium Z gave it one time burst which was all it needed to blow through most teams pretty quickly.

Hope you get well soon but ngl I actually forgor z phantom force existed until like just now so yea but I genuinely thought specs draco was more threatening than band/dd+z phantom force

 

[omar]

I wish to first start by echoing seth's sentiment about the tier being in the worst place it has ever been. It is simply stagnant and unfun while also having the least potential future prospects ever. I also agree that Gholdengo and Dragapult should be given a second chance, which I will expand upon in a second. Having said this I believe starting a big unban wave is a bit preemptive, and should be only used as a last resort.

First of all, Darkrai should be banned. Darkrai has no defensive counterplay that cannot be either worn down quickly or muscled through via either a Z move or tera, forcing multiple offensive answers on every team, thus causing the tier to be far too offensive, something that I don't believe any reasonable amount of unbans will solve. Additionally, while I don't consider sleep as a whole broken, Darkrai is a perfect sleep abuser, having an excellent offensive profile independent of sleep, an ability that directly rewards it and an inaccurate sleep move to boot, further cementing its uncompetitiveness.

After this I believe Ogerpon-Wellspring should be revisisted. The tier has changed and is now almost unrecognizable from the time zama was around, and while Ogerpon is not very oppresive right now, this is in large part due to Darkrai. The rise of Kommo-o is largely due to Darkrai, as Ogerpon can run Play Rough to ohko it and there are far better answers to it. Scarf Urshifu being one of the best offensive answers to Darkrai has led to its popularity, and due to sharing many answers to Ogerpon, such as defensive Raging Bolt and Dragonite, while also easily revenge killing it, Ogerpon has been severely hindered.

These two are the only really obvious Pokemon that should be suspected, after which we have to just wait and see whatever else is broken and take action accordingly. However, should this not work out or should the bans not even happen, then the previously proposed plan is the only way fowards.

I personally voted ban on Gholdengo, though the tier back then was completely different than it is now. The current extremely offensive nature of the tier should be able to very easily handle Gholdengo, though as I stated previously I don't believe any amount of unbans will help balance, in fact Gholdengo could just worsen the issue by incentivizing hazard stacking offenses that can both easily abuse Gholdengo as a teammate and consistently overwhelm opposing Gholdengo through brute offense. Having said this I do support suspecting Gholdengo, as this is all hypothetical and would like to see its true effect on the tier.

Dragapult is the quintessential offensive Pokemon and would fit in perfectly in the current tier, both as a member of offense teams and as one of the most effective tools against them. Dragapult's legality in the tier has always been tied to Kingambit's, however I would like to first see it suspected alone before resorting to more unbans.

Kingambit is the one that I am most hesistant to suspect. The reason I previously voted to ban it was due to it being far too good at abusing tera. It had a wide array of options, such as Fairy, Flying, Dark, Fire, Water, Ghost, Dragon, etc., and the inability to know with certainty which of these it would be means one has to play around all of them at once, which alongside the usual tera/no tera mind game is in my opinion unhealthy. This would all be solved if tera were gone but mr smogon says no.

Hopefully at least one of these courses of action happens bc otherwise I truly see no future for the tier. Staying the way it is will just continually leak players until there really isn't anyone else that wants to touch this tier outside of ndpl for a ca.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

How did a simple suspect turned into ppl asking to unban , , and even fucking

I wish to first start by echoing seth's sentiment about the tier being in the worst place it has ever been. It is simply stagnant and unfun while also having the least potential future prospects ever. I also agree that Gholdengo and Dragapult should be given a second chance, which I will expand upon in a second. Having said this I believe starting a big unban wave is a bit preemptive, and should be only used as a last resort.



First of all, Darkrai should be banned. Darkrai has no defensive counterplay that cannot be either worn down quickly or muscled through via either a Z move or tera, forcing multiple offensive answers on every team, thus causing the tier to be far too offensive, something that I don't believe any reasonable amount of unbans will solve. Additionally, while I don't consider sleep as a whole broken, Darkrai is a perfect sleep abuser, having an excellent offensive profile independent of sleep, an ability that directly rewards it and an inaccurate sleep move to boot, further cementing its uncompetitiveness.



After this I believe Ogerpon-Wellspring should be revisisted. The tier has changed and is now almost unrecognizable from the time zama was around, and while Ogerpon is not very oppresive right now, this is in large part due to Darkrai. The rise of Kommo-o is largely due to Darkrai, as Ogerpon can run Play Rough to ohko it and there are far better answers to it. Scarf Urshifu being one of the best offensive answers to Darkrai has led to its popularity, and due to sharing many answers to Ogerpon, such as defensive Raging Bolt and Dragonite, while also easily revenge killing it, Ogerpon has been severely hindered.



These two are the only really obvious Pokemon that should be suspected, after which we have to just wait and see whatever else is broken and take action accordingly. However, should this not work out or should the bans not even happen, then the previously proposed plan is the only way fowards.



I personally voted ban on Gholdengo, though the tier back then was completely different than it is now. The current extremely offensive nature of the tier should be able to very easily handle Gholdengo, though as I stated previously I don't believe any amount of unbans will help balance, in fact Gholdengo could just worsen the issue by incentivizing hazard stacking offenses that can both easily abuse Gholdengo as a teammate and consistently overwhelm opposing Gholdengo through brute offense. Having said this I do support suspecting Gholdengo, as this is all hypothetical and would like to see its true effect on the tier.



Dragapult is the quintessential offensive Pokemon and would fit in perfectly in the current tier, both as a member of offense teams and as one of the most effective tools against them. Dragapult's legality in the tier has always been tied to Kingambit's, however I would like to first see it suspected alone before resorting to more unbans.



Kingambit is the one that I am most hesistant to suspect. The reason I previously voted to ban it was due to it being far too good at abusing tera. It had a wide array of options, such as Fairy, Flying, Dark, Fire, Water, Ghost, Dragon, etc., and the inability to know with certainty which of these it would be means one has to play around all of them at once, which alongside the usual tera/no tera mind game is in my opinion unhealthy. This would all be solved if tera were gone but mr smogon says no.



Hopefully at least one of these courses of action happens bc otherwise I truly see no future for the tier. Staying the way it is will just continually leak players until there really isn't anyone else that wants to touch this tier outside of ndpl for a ca.

Personally I agree on ban due to it being a incredibly limiting Mon in the builder but I don't agree with the other unbans

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

I wish to first start by echoing seth's sentiment about the tier being in the worst place it has ever been. It is simply stagnant and unfun while also having the least potential future prospects ever. I also agree that Gholdengo and Dragapult should be given a second chance, which I will expand upon in a second. Having said this I believe starting a big unban wave is a bit preemptive, and should be only used as a last resort.

First of all, Darkrai should be banned. Darkrai has no defensive counterplay that cannot be either worn down quickly or muscled through via either a Z move or tera, forcing multiple offensive answers on every team, thus causing the tier to be far too offensive, something that I don't believe any reasonable amount of unbans will solve. Additionally, while I don't consider sleep as a whole broken, Darkrai is a perfect sleep abuser, having an excellent offensive profile independent of sleep, an ability that directly rewards it and an inaccurate sleep move to boot, further cementing its uncompetitiveness.

After this I believe Ogerpon-Wellspring should be revisisted. The tier has changed and is now almost unrecognizable from the time zama was around, and while Ogerpon is not very oppresive right now, this is in large part due to Darkrai. The rise of Kommo-o is largely due to Darkrai, as Ogerpon can run Play Rough to ohko it and there are far better answers to it. Scarf Urshifu being one of the best offensive answers to Darkrai has led to its popularity, and due to sharing many answers to Ogerpon, such as defensive Raging Bolt and Dragonite, while also easily revenge killing it, Ogerpon has been severely hindered.

These two are the only really obvious Pokemon that should be suspected, after which we have to just wait and see whatever else is broken and take action accordingly. However, should this not work out or should the bans not even happen, then the previously proposed plan is the only way fowards.

I personally voted ban on Gholdengo, though the tier back then was completely different than it is now. The current extremely offensive nature of the tier should be able to very easily handle Gholdengo, though as I stated previously I don't believe any amount of unbans will help balance, in fact Gholdengo could just worsen the issue by incentivizing hazard stacking offenses that can both easily abuse Gholdengo as a teammate and consistently overwhelm opposing Gholdengo through brute offense. Having said this I do support suspecting Gholdengo, as this is all hypothetical and would like to see its true effect on the tier.

Dragapult is the quintessential offensive Pokemon and would fit in perfectly in the current tier, both as a member of offense teams and as one of the most effective tools against them. Dragapult's legality in the tier has always been tied to Kingambit's, however I would like to first see it suspected alone before resorting to more unbans.

Kingambit is the one that I am most hesistant to suspect. The reason I previously voted to ban it was due to it being far too good at abusing tera. It had a wide array of options, such as Fairy, Flying, Dark, Fire, Water, Ghost, Dragon, etc., and the inability to know with certainty which of these it would be means one has to play around all of them at once, which alongside the usual tera/no tera mind game is in my opinion unhealthy. This would all be solved if tera were gone but mr smogon says no.

Hopefully at least one of these courses of action happens bc otherwise I truly see no future for the tier. Staying the way it is will just continually leak players until there really isn't anyone else that wants to touch this tier outside of ndpl for a ca.

bc that was a big wall of text I didn't read it before but here's some stuff now I reread it;

You're right about it's stupidly strong rn but sleep isn't the best part and imo there's nothing to abuse sleep but

In what universe do you wanna go back to the days when swept teams after a sd, had knock cos why not, superpower for steels and encore with it's insane speed tier? Hell nah. It has dropped significantly, true but revisiting it might not be a great idea

Hazard stacking imo isn't popular in ndou and even with a unban it doesn't encourage hazard stacking since someone mentioned before that ppl can hardly find time to clear hazards and there's alr very niche options to clear hazards

How would fit well in the current meta? It outspeeds everything that isn't scarf and threatens back the whole meta with it's wide array of sets(specs, boots, the aforementioned dd z phantom force)

Pls no more requests to unban pls

Also wdym no future for the tier if none of these actions happen? So if the unbans and ban don't happen; the tier is basically doomed?

 

[Isza]

Darkrai should be banned(unless you're using specs that sets awful), Ogerpon should be retested, and nothing that was previously banned in the generation should be freed.

-Back to back to back NDWC Winner.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

case closed(pls stop asking for unbans they were banned for a reason)

 

[ChrisPBacon]

Darkrai should be banned(unless you're using specs that sets awful), Ogerpon should be retested, and nothing that was previously banned in the generation should be freed.

-Back to back to back NDWC Loser.

 

[hidin]

I think its time I threw my hat into this ring about what should be done with the tier, and firstly I want to say that I'm against unbanning any Pokemon that has been previously banned in this generation. As good as the concept of testing something into the tier to see if it'll do something in a time where things are not the best, all of them have very understandable reasons on why they should stay in Ubers and don't have a place down here. Besides that, I want to talk about why things are currently the way they are and what could be done in the future to have at least an enjoyable and balanced metagame.

So far this year we've been doing suspects on primarily Pokemon that take part in the big, top, and controversial playstyle at the moment; offense. Every since the drop of DLC 2, offense has been the best playstyle that is commonly fueled by Pokemon like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Darkrai, Zamazenta, and even Roaring Moon while it was being suspected. Do you know what all of these past suspected Pokemon have in common. They all contributed to offense and made it an even more overbearing playstyle. Luckily we banned both Roaring Moon and Zamazenta, but the main thing this applies to is Ogerpon-Wellspring. Back in April 2024, we suspect tested the Pokemon and it stayed in a pretty close vote to my knowledge. At the time, people said that it was kept under control by offense, and particularly, Zamazenta, two elements of the tier that we were trying to tone down. There was some other reasonings such as Dragon-types and Grass-types being common, viable, and solid checks to it but that discussion is to be had at a different time. Anyways, it stayed in the tier and then we suspected and banned Zamazenta. This was a good this; offense finally got toned down a bit! But then we realize what we have left in the tier after such a change, two Pokemon that are also culprits of being commonly disastrous to any playstyle barring offense. Those Pokemon being Ogerpon-Wellspring and Darkrai.

What am I trying to get at here? If that wasn't concise for you, here's what I'm trying to say: We are valuing offense too heavily in our recent tiering actions when we are trying to both tone down the playstyle so it won't be overbearing and make all playstyles decent and viable choices at the least. This is not a good tiering philosophy at all as when you are trying to make a healthy metagame and choose to suspect some Pokemon to make it balance, you don't value one playstyle heavily over all of them, especially one that's been known to be dominating and be scrutinized for doing so for a long while. If we want to make the metagame not so boring and stale and the same exact offense mirrors over and over, why are we choosing to consider keeping Pokemon that negatively impact the tier but benefit offense? That just confuses me and it's a real shame that this has been the reason why things haven't been the best when it comes to the reception of the tier as of late, while also causing us to propose some pretty outlandish tiering actions like unbanning Kingambit/Gholdengo/Dragapult or looking into Z-Moves trying to make some kind of change happen. Well I hope you guys know now that there isn't a need for any type of drastic unban or ban to happen for things to change; we simply need to look deeper into the grand scheme of things and not continue to value offense so heavily over all playstyles. What about balance? The playstyle that's near rendered unviable? There's been much more points about keeping an unhealthy Pokemon because offense, an unhealthy playstyle, checks it instead of balance being kept under shackles because of said Pokemon's existence, and you can apply this to most suspects we've done as of late. I think it's time we stop trying to maintain the standard of "offense will keep things in check" when it literally is the (non-mechanic related) root of most issues with the meta currently.

I'm going to vote ban on Darkrai and would hope for another Ogerpon-Wellspring test very soon, and wouldn't be opposed for it to happened mid-PL. After that, there's potentially some other Pokemon to look into such as Gouging Fire, Urshifu-R, and even rain in some way (this is very dependent on if Ogerpon-Wellspring gets banned or not). Hopefully we can lock in and help fix our current offense fest of a tier brick by brick so that we can have the healthy and stabilized metagame we've been yearning for since July 2023. If you can and are willing to, please do your part.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

We are valuing offense too heavily in our recent tiering actions when we are trying to both tone down the playstyle so it won't be overbearing and make all playstyles decent and viable choices at the least

Because it is an incredibly oppressive playstyle imo. There are many threats in offense imo and I personally agree that some mons were insane but, why?

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Can you rephrase this, I dont get what you’re asking me here…looks like you agree with me though?

Sorry I had no time to type but what I meant was why are you so concerned about banning oppressive threats on offense to balance it out?

 

[hidin]

Sorry I had no time to type but what I meant was why are you so concerned about banning oppressive threats on offense to balance it out?

My ratio is declining big time by responding to this but I think you should just re-read my post since that’s throughly answered there. Thanks for asking though!

 

[sh0shin]

NGL I don't know if balance will make a considerable comeback without action on Tera, which is moot, but consider that we would still have 20+ OU viable (this is also open to interpretation since ND is way too big) Tera abusing sweepers without Darkrai and OWS. DLC 2 added a few threats and introduced plenty of offense structures were created alongside them.

Don't get me wrong, Rai and Wellspring are emblematic of the extremely common BO and common HO teams. Even if super strong and splashable, they just don't seem to warp the meta as much as Kingambutt/Dengo/Pult did. This is probably subjective, but usage stats say otherwise. Compare 2023 to 2024:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2023-07/gen9nationaldex-1760.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-07/gen9nationaldex-1760.txt

And we can't just magically go back to the MSciz Torn Ting-Lu Washtom type balance shit magically because two strong dudes left, right? Sub Zap and SD Gliscor live on in my heart though.

I'm also a little confused about the July 2023 mention. The literal King of offense (and the ladder) was legal. I recall NDWC involving an assload of ETerrain/offense with MediKoko Sneasler Iron Moth etc. Baxcalibur was everywhere, and Bax + ZardY slapped. Even DD Z Pult was around then, until September 2023.
Open to feedback and further discussions on this though... I could be way off and just offense biased.

All I can say for sure is that I'll be less tilted queuing ND if I don't have to think about Z Hypnosis Darkrai much as I love Darkrai

 

[Lupla]

Don't get me wrong, Rai and Wellspring are emblematic of the extremely common BO and common HO teams. Even if super strong and splashable, they just don't seem to warp the meta as much as Kingambutt/Dengo/Pult did.

They don't really need to be at the same level as the other previously bans in order for them to be unhealthy. While you can make the case of Wellspring not being as problematic given how much prep they give it to the point where it can fall off for a bit (Gen 4 Machamp kind of scenario), Darkrai was already on the verge and the Zamazenta ban made the counterplay drop off a cliff as one of the best checks in the tier was gone (deja vu ).

Even if they aren't as broken in practice (One of them will always be an issue as they both stomp on each other's counterplay really well regardless) trying to build anything that's not offense in this meta is basically hellish, these two are already massive preps to be worrying about alongside everything else to the point where you just have to use your own offense, making most matches just be offense and offense because of how difficult it is to do anything else with the massive strains in the builder. I do think building Balance is still feasible but you'll save a lot of trouble by just loading offense, click a few buttons and calling it a day rather than mix up defenses only to be overwhelmed regardless.

I can wait on Wellspring really, the suspect ending in a dnb did suck but having it without Zama or Darkrai around is at least more tolerable. Darkrai on the other hand, just ban it, defensively there's hardly anything that does well into it and despite the few offensive checks being feasible ( ) you're pretty much stuck with these options over and over, making things stale and boring. Anyway go play ND UU and uhhhh OU please give back our mons yap yap ty ok bye.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

I can wait on Wellspring really, the suspect ending in a dnb did suck but having it without Zama or Darkrai around is at least more tolerable. Darkrai on the other hand, just ban it, defensively there's hardly anything that does well into it and despite the few offensive checks being feasible ( ) you're pretty much stuck with these options over and over, making things stale and boring. Anyway go play ND UU and uhhhh OU please give back our mons yap yap ty ok bye.

Scarf says hello. Also all these mons can only rev kill and actual special walls lose to coverage/np+z

 

[BrisingrDraconis]

Scarf says hello. Also all these mons can only rev kill and actual special walls lose to coverage/np+z

With scarf being locked into a move and having considerably less power than a specs darkrai or a +2 non-choice darkrai, these can all eat a hit that isn't super-effective, so they can still revenge kill it.

And yes, they can only revenge kill. That's why they're offensive checks as opposed to defensive checks. And yeah special walls lose to coverage/np/z, which is why Lupla said that there's hardly anything that does well into it defensively.

 

[sh0shin]

Scarf Darkrai is kinda like running Scarf Weavile. When you're that speed tier and the only threats are Booster Energy, priority, and opposing Scarves it's a bit of a wasted opportunity when you can 2HKO everything slower than you already. Scarf Trick Darkrai could work potentially but I still question its role vs a stronger breaking set.

 

[pannu]

Scarf Darkrai is kinda like running Scarf Weavile. When you're that speed tier and the only threats are Booster Energy, priority, and opposing Scarves it's a bit of a wasted opportunity when you can 2HKO everything slower than you already. Scarf Trick Darkrai could work potentially but I still question its role vs a stronger breaking set.

Scarf rai is rlly good vs offense tho, being able to snipe KO's on guys like Scarf urshi or booster speed val can totally turn the tides of a game, and being able to trick Scarf can not only mess with set up sweepers but also makes u not dud vs fat teams. I think a more ample comparison is sd kartana vs Scarf kartana. Sd kartana (np/specs rai) is very threatening vs fat but Scarf gives u an immaculate tool vs offense.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

scarf is good since with that coverage and stats, can be a big threat that you cant outspeed or wall. only threat imo is really which fake out spams you but saccing that many mons to take down and can just switch, just no

 

[sh0shin]

I suppose I simply haven't seen any of it, I guess. with the right coverage it could definitely snipe shifu ival makes sense. just not sure if unboosted gets you the range you want but I ain't calced it either. would be interested to see what a scarf rai team looks like in total.