Serious The Politics Thread

[Chou Toshio]

It seems the discussion is focusing in on the character of Hamas as an organization specifically... though I'm unconvinced that's even a very important conversation to have. Barring an all out war where Iran defeats a fully US backed IDF with direct US committed forces (ie. 99% no-- though I'd urge US citizens to understand that Iran's power/capability/societal sophistication is completely different from Iraq's when we conquered it-- we REALLY don't want that war), the only path to peace for Palestine is for the US (specifically a Democratic Administration) to reign in its rabid attack dog-- and to that end centralizing a discussion on characterizing Hamas, which will only fracture the Democratic coalition-- seems extremely unproductive to me.

That said, if the discussion needs to be had-- and I think a minor Pokemon forum with zero ability to affect wider US politics discourse outside the site is a perfect place to have this kind of discussion-- we're extremely limited, as intent is almost impossible to "prove" even in court of law with much more controlled fact finding.

As a more normie westerner who hasn't dug past the easily consumable material to try to paint a "true picture" of Hamas, I'd say I don't know the reality of the group's intent, and it's hard enough to even know "the facts." Frankly, intent is so hard to discern "truth" on I don't think I could form a confidently "correct" opinion either way, even if I spent all my waking hours reading through all possible online material-- which I won't.

But I'd have to say that I do find it troubling/disturbing to try to answer these questions:
1) What is the average age for a Gazan?
2) What do we think the average age of a Hamas member is?
3) In the West, how old do we say a person needs to become before they reach full mental maturity?
4) When was the barricade created, and Gaza isolated behind the wall?

Going through that list of questions, I don't think it's hard to imagine a small organization like Hamas being disturbingly made up of very young men who have lived their whole lives in a concentration camp. Keep in mind, when war with Russia broke out many liberals and leftists were even saying (rightfully imo) "don't even look at Russian soldiers uniformly as villains here-- in many ways, these conscripted men are also victims of the situation." The young men growing up in Gaza are in a context far, far more worthy of our sympathy-- those who don't AND do choose to join Hamas.

You can take a hard Deontological argument and morally judge a person or organization divorced from the context... I personally don't subscribe to that view of the world. There are are actions, intent, and context. And I just want to say that even without being able to know everything about the "truth" of Hamas, the easily discernable facts of its context paint a jarring picture.

Regardless, all the power and all autonomy sits with the US and Israel. Regardless of what Hamas does, it is with the US only that things can be changed/resolved. For that reason, it's far much more important to understand and judge the actions of the US than any other party here.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

For several posts now, members have attempted to browbeat me because I didn't comment on the personal misfortune of some Israelis. Please explain to me how it is reasonable to be doing this. Imagine if I said "I have a Palestinian friend who died" in the middle of a debate, and then if someone didn't respond to that specific comment with a flowery letter of sympathy, I ignored all of their points and said "how dare you not reply to that!" Do you see how that is not reasonable?

SAC's post was a pretty decent example of how to respond to personal anecdotes (apologies for lumping you in, SAC - I missed the line you mentioned) with both sympathy while pointing out inaccuracies (I don't believe that using someone's personal anecdote to fact-check them is inherently good, but SAC did a pretty good job at doing that). You, in your post, offered no sympathies except stating that his statement about Hamas was "false" (mind you, after an incredibly personal experience was shared).

If you said "I have a Palestinian friend who died" mid-debate, you'd expect someone to have a modicum of sympathy for your experience, no? Or would you be fine if someone listed out some reasons why "Israel is not an apartheid state, actually"?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I am sorry to hear that and you have my sympathies. However, I would urge you to not say that again on the open forum as your friend may not wish for his life story to be shared in this forum, and also the legal ramifications of you being identified by this story.

This is possibly the most tone deaf thing I've ever read

 

[lilyhollow]

Regardless, all the power and all autonomy sits with the US and Israel. Regardless of what Hamas does, it is with the US only that things can be changed/resolved. For that reason, it's far much more important to understand and judge the actions of the US than any other party here.

I agree with this. However, I think it is important to have correct views of Hamas because a major part of the propaganda war is to smear them, specifically to undermine western sympathies for the Palestinian cause in the first place. We need people to actually have their heads right and put maximum pressure on the United States

So wait. You're telling me that the Re'im Music Festival was secretly housing "high-value military prisoners" that were attempted to be kept captive?

How exactly is Hamas supposed to know or not know whether there are militants in any area whatsoever at the border of the Gaza Strip?

You're telling me that Israel is at fault for the deaths of most, if not all, of these civilians because they were not expecting a surprise attack from Hamas due to intelligence failures?

I'm saying that it's absurd to suggest that Hamas is an irrational organization that said "lol just murder lots of civilians because we're stupid genocidal terrorists," and far more reasonable to believe that they had a plan for capturing prisoners which, in execution, quickly became chaotic because of an unprecedented IDF security collapse as well as armed civilians on the border of a state where the vast majority of the population serves in the military.

I'm also repeating that it is 100% confirmed that Israel killed their own people as a matter of policy on that day. They are literally the only ones with 100% confirmed intent to kill unarmed civilians with hard proof. We don't, however, know how many were killed by Israel.

Nowhere in this am I saying "no individual member of Hamas went in and killed an unarmed civilian on purpose."

If you said "I have a Palestinian friend who died" mid-debate, you'd expect someone to have a modicum of sympathy for your experience, no? Or would you be fine if someone listed out some reasons why "Israel is not an apartheid state, actually"?

I would expect sympathy, but not a reply.

I would also have no problem with someone saying "Israel is not an apartheid state, actually," because I could just easily destroy that weak and false argument. The reason people have a problem with me saying "Hamas is a legitimate resistance group" is not because of any kind of insensitivity whatsoever; it's because evidence mounts every day that that statement is true

The actions of Hamas are illegal under international law (using suicide bombers, indiscriminate rocket fire, and ground warfare to injure or kill civilians or take and hold them hostage) - thus, I currently do not consider them a "legitimate" resistance organization due to the nature of their resistance.

They are resisting with what they have--after having tried peaceful protest and other nonviolent means of resistance, by the way. By your logic, I believe you should be advocating that we provide Palestinian resistance groups with the precise and advanced weaponry they need to defend themselves in a 'legitimate' (to you) manner.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

This is possibly the most tone deaf thing I've ever read

That’s your view, you are entitled to it. If you read further up you can see where I give an additional explanation as to why I said that.

And I stand by it - individuals safety and well being is important both in the context of what’s going on and why.

If it needs repeating again - the individual has both my sympathies, my condolences, and my understanding.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I am not insinuating that your stance is that Hamas "ran away from all civilian-populated areas", rather that "Hamas tried to attack military settlements but killed civilians in the crossfire". Please don't try to misconstrue what I'm saying.

So wait. You're telling me that the Re'im Music Festival was secretly housing "high-value military prisoners" that were attempted to be kept captive? You're telling me that the bus with 15 senior citizens that was held up by a flat tire in Sderot were really "high-value military prisoners" that just had to be murdered? You're telling me that Israel is at fault for the deaths of most, if not all, of these civilians because they were not expecting a surprise attack from Hamas due to intelligence failures?

This point makes no sense.


I'll clarify my stance on Hamas.

The cause behind Hamas is completely legitimate.

The actions of Hamas are illegal under international law (using suicide bombers, indiscriminate rocket fire, and ground warfare to injure or kill civilians or take and hold them hostage) - thus, I currently do not consider them a "legitimate" resistance organization due to the nature of their resistance. I certainly do consider them a resistance organization because that is what they are, but they are not legitimate in my eyes.

I’m not going to go through this point by point, but I think you should read this report from the OHCHR:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...sessions-regular/session56/a-hrc-56-crp-3.pdf

And pay particular attention to point 223.

Also, with respect - whether you think Hamas is legitimatised or not, and whether I do or not, is irrelevant.

Ultimately the ICJ ruled the group and its aims legitimate under international law, and Israel’s occupation and apartheid illegal.

The ICC may yet issue those arrest warrants for the two Hamas leaders and two Israeli government officials (prime minister and defence minister) - and that will underscore that the methods of both groups have been abhorrent.

However, that does not delegitimise the rights of the Palestinians both to self determination and to fight against apartheid and occupation. That right is sacrosanct.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

SAC's post was a pretty decent example of how to respond to personal anecdotes (apologies for lumping you in, SAC - I missed the line you mentioned) with both sympathy while pointing out inaccuracies (I don't believe that using someone's personal anecdote to fact-check them is inherently good, but SAC did a pretty good job at doing that). You, in your post, offered no sympathies except stating that his statement about Hamas was "false" (mind you, after an incredibly personal experience was shared).

Thank you for the apology (though not necessary, in hindsight I could have communicated better on this topic over the last day and a half, but I am doing my best despite also feeling absolutely nauseous reading the news at the minute).

And for what it is worth, I repeat again that my sympathies and condolences are with the poster concerned.

 

[Cancel cult]

Alright, time to get slightly political.

Just because one side does something bad doesn't let the other side do it.
"Japans government was doing all sorts of bad things, so we totally have a reason to drop the sun on a city full of civilians"
Yes, Israel shouldn't do war crimes, but them doing it doesn't make it ok for Hamas to do them either. I still don't know enough to say whether you are right or wrong, but this line of thinking is deeply flawed.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Yes, Israel shouldn't do war crimes, but them doing it doesn't make it ok for Hamas to do them either. I still don't know enough to say whether you are right or wrong, but this line of thinking is deeply flawed.

This is a deeply uninformed take. Sorry to say.

Try telling that to the French resistance in World War Two?

Or to the Vietnamese?

Maybe the breakaway states during the civil war should have not picked up their arms to defend themselves?

How about the proletariat in Russia, should they have done nothing against state sponsored aggression and mass murder?

We are not talking about two sides with equal or near equal armies, navies, air force and artillery here.

It’s literally 2.3 million people, half of which are children, unarmed, with about roughly 20-30,000 militia with ak47s and IEDs.

Versus the fourth biggest military in the world supported by THE biggest military in the world.

Who have dropped more bombs on that population on that tiny strip of land than the following:

Please be better informed.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

How exactly is Hamas supposed to know or not know whether there are militants in any area whatsoever at the border of the Gaza Strip?

Probably because Re'im was a fucking music festival, not military training? Probably because Sderot wasn't a military base, but rather an Israeli city? Same for Nir Oz and Netiv HaAsara? Unless you're suggesting Hamas militants don't have eyes, it should be pretty easy to tell whether or not there are predominantly civilians or soldiers in a general area.

I'm saying that it's absurd to suggest that Hamas is an irrational organization that said "lol just murder lots of civilians because we're stupid genocidal terrorists," and far more reasonable to believe that they had a plan for capturing prisoners which, in execution, quickly became chaotic because of an unprecedented IDF security collapse as well as armed civilians on the border of a state where the vast majority of the population serves in the military.

Again, you're strawmanning my point. Nowhere am I saying Hamas is an irrational organization. I am saying that they killed civilians in a premeditated attack. Also, when IDF security collapsed, wouldn't it be easier to simply take those who were fleeing hostage rather than killing them? After all, there wasn't an IDF response immediately available after the Hamas-led attacks. I'll also remind you that hostage-taking is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

I'm also repeating that it is 100% confirmed that Israel killed their own people as a matter of policy on that day. They are literally the only ones with 100% confirmed intent to kill unarmed civilians with hard proof. We don't, however, know how many were killed by Israel.

Yes, I quite literally sourced articles proving this point for you. Beating this point into the ground won't really do anything. This is getting close to Hezbollah claims at this point.

Nowhere in this am I saying "no individual member of Hamas went in and killed an unarmed civilian on purpose."

Did I ever say that was your argument?

I would expect sympathy, but not a reply.

Not even an "I'm sorry for what happened?" Wow. That is...certainly something.

The reason people have a problem with me saying "Hamas is a legitimate resistance group" is not because of any kind of insensitivity whatsoever; it's because evidence mounts every day that that statement is true

Can you please show this supposed "evidence" of yours that exonerates Hamas from being called terrorists? You're not going to be moderated for this unless you're directly linking to Hamas paraphernalia.

They are resisting with what they have--after having tried peaceful protest and other nonviolent means of resistance, by the way. By your logic, I believe you should be advocating that we provide Palestinian resistance groups with the precise and advanced weaponry they need to defend themselves in a 'legitimate' (to you) manner.

My advocacy is for the US to cease all forms of military aid to Israel and only send humanitarian aid to both countries, targeting Gaza specifically, and sanctioning the Israeli government for its crimes against humanity in Palestine. I would also be open to sending Palestinian groups a form of self-defense against Israeli attacks. I do not advocate for an increase in violence.

 

[lilyhollow]

Cancel cult : Hamas does not have advanced technologies and resources with which to resist in a traditional manner. They don't have a traditional standing army. They do not have an air force. For example, consider the absurdity of criticizing Hamas for 'indiscriminate rocket fire.' The rocket fire is indeed 'indiscriminate'--in that Hamas does not have precise rocket technology! So how are they supposed to do these precise, 'legitimate' resistance operations that we all so desire? If we want them to do armed resistance in a way that is more palatable to us, then give them the resources that let them do that. Or better yet, stop sending those very same precise weapons to Israel, the party which is causing the problem in the first place. But to simply condemn them makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Cancel cult]

This is a deeply uninformed take. Sorry to say.

Try telling that to the French resistance in World War Two?

Or to the Vietnamese?

Maybe the breakaway states during the civil war should have not picked up their arms to defend themselves?

How about the proletariat in Russia, should they have done nothing against state sponsored aggression and mass murder?

We are not talking about two sides with equal or near equal armies, navies, air force and artillery here.

It’s literally 2.3 million people, half of which are children, unarmed, with about roughly 20-30,000 militia with ak47s and IEDs.

Versus the fourth biggest military in the world supported by THE biggest military in the world.

Who have dropped more bombs on that population on that tiny strip of land than the following:

View attachment 659370

Please be better informed.

I didn't say that Hamas are bad people for doing this. I understand that sometimes you have to do the wrong thing for the right reason. But what lily was saying is that because one side is doing it, the other is justified in doing it. Necessitated and justified are two very different things. I do not disagree with the claim "we have no other choice" (nor do I agree with it, I am too uninformed to have a valid opinion). What I explicitly disagree with is the "What about Israel? They started it." argument. That is not a valid argument.

 

[lilyhollow]

Also, when IDF security collapsed, wouldn't it be easier to simply take those who were fleeing hostage rather than killing them?

Easier? No, but in any case, this is largely what they were doing until many of them were incinerated by Israeli helicopter fire and tank shells.

Unless you're suggesting Hamas militants don't have eyes, it should be pretty easy to tell whether or not there are predominantly civilians or soldiers in a general area.

They didn't care if those areas were 'predominantly' anything. They expected, as any normal human being would expect, that there would be a large amount of military resistance bordering the edge of the concentration camp they were trapped in.

Yes, I quite literally sourced articles proving this point for you. Beating this point into the ground won't really do anything. This is getting close to Hezbollah claims at this point.

The very post you're quoting is filled with propaganda. It even "debunks" the very claim that you are right this moment claiming you agree with:

“Unsurprisingly, Nasrallah peddles the conspiracy theory that Israeli civilians were killed by Israel, not Hamas. A tacit acknowledgement that these atrocities were not met with unmixed delight by all in the region…” Weiss tweeted.

This is your way of 'discrediting' Nasrallah? Evidently he is more credible than any source you've consumed information from about this topic up until this point.

Can you please show this supposed "evidence" of yours that exonerates Hamas from being called terrorists?

It is quite impossible to exonerate them from being called terrorists under your definition of the word. Your definition would probably apply to numerous slave rebellions, the Vietnamese resistance, and many other legitimate resistance groups. I'm lumping Hamas (and the other members of the Palestinian resistance) in with those groups, and I've said what I want to say in order to support that position. So you can use whatever word you like, but use it for all of them.

I would also be open to sending Palestinian groups a form of self-defense against Israeli attacks.

sounds good.

at this point I think this conversation is going in circles, and I've gotten a lot off my chest. I am going to give it a rest for a while

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

What I explicitly disagree with is the "What about Israel? They started it." argument. That is not a valid argument.

No one in the last six pages of discussion has said that. Not once.

Please be a good faith actor in this discussion.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Probably because Re'im was a fucking music festival, not military training? Probably because Sderot wasn't a military base, but rather an Israeli city? Same for Nir Oz and Netiv HaAsara? Unless you're suggesting Hamas militants don't have eyes, it should be pretty easy to tell whether or not there are predominantly civilians or soldiers in a general area.

Off topic - but why was a music festival being held so close to the border? This has never been explained as far as I am aware. Given that Shin Bet has released some information that Israel was on high alert ahead of 7 October 2023, the choice of the venue and the timing of it just stands out in the sea of other awful things that happened on that day.

advocacy is for the US to cease all forms of military aid to Israel and only send humanitarian aid to both countries, targeting Gaza specifically, and sanctioning the Israeli government for its crimes against humanity in Palestine. I would also be open to sending Palestinian groups a form of self-defense against Israeli attacks. I do not advocate for an increase in violence.

I applaud this position and support it whole heartedly.

 

[Cancel cult]

No one in the last six pages of discussion has said that. Not once.

Please be a good faith actor in this discussion.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Meanwhile in American politics, Republicans stand up to the racist microaggressions of Tim Walz insinuating that white guys “like me” can’t do spicy food.

He’s clearly the head of globalist conspiracy— as MAGA compatriots have uncovered the truth that despite him claiming the spiciest Minnesotans can handle is black pepper, in 2016 the communist governor won a recipe contest that clearly contains….

…paprika and chili powder. Dun dun DUUUHN!!!!

(you guys might as well go on about Gaza cause domestic politics super unserious and brain dead for now lol)

 

[adjectivenoun]

Meanwhile in American politics, Republicans stand up to the racist microaggressions of Tim Walz insinuating that white guys “like me” can’t do spicy food.

He’s clearly the head of globalist conspiracy— as MAGA compatriots have uncovered the truth that despite him claiming the spiciest Minnesotans can handle is black pepper, in 2016 the communist governor won a recipe contest that clearly contains….

…paprika and chili powder. Dun dun DUUUHN!!!!

(you guys might as well go on about Gaza cause domestic politics super unserious and brain dead for now lol)

Why would Republicans care about having their spice tolerance insulted? Most of America's spicy food comes from those immigrants that they keep railing against. If you're a xenophobic white guy, your lack of spice tolerance should really be a point of pride.

 

[Local Dog]

It's such a stupid thing to say because it's mostly just northern Europeans being unable to deal with spice. White people from the southern parts of Europe love spicy stuff, just look at Calabrian or Balkan food

White in the US is just a weird way to describe British I feel. The American image on people of European descent doesn't apply to like 70% of Europe

 

[Chou Toshio]

Why would Republicans care about having their spice tolerance insulted? Most of America's spicy food comes from those immigrants that they keep railing against. If you're a xenophobic white guy, your lack of spice tolerance should really be a point of pride.

They’re weird. Sure it’s a part of their weird fixation on manly machismo, and being able to handle spicy food or some other BS being apart of that… ish?

They should just admit there’s no such thing as shared white culture if Tim Walz and the southerner who invented the Carolina Reaper are both white lol.

Edit: Tim, got to say, you really stepped in it. As punishment next time you have to invite this guy to a North Carolina stump and share a reaper with him on stage.

 

[Bughouse]

Tim Walz going on Hot Ones would result in either world peace or the earth collapsing into a singularity and I'm not sure which

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Easier? No, but in any case, this is largely what they were doing until many of them were incinerated by Israeli helicopter fire and tank shells.

CNN: Video of Hamas shooting festivalgoers at point-blank range

Can you please give me some evidence? I've given you multiple articles to prove my points and you've given me nothing even after I asked you multiple times.

They didn't care if those areas were 'predominantly' anything. They expected, as any normal human being would expect, that there would be a large amount of military resistance bordering the edge of the concentration camp they were trapped in.

That gives Hamas free rein to shoot them? Certainly some sort of view you've got there.

The very post you're quoting is filled with propaganda. It even "debunks" the very claim that you are right this moment claiming you agree with:

This is your way of 'discrediting' Nasrallah? Evidently he is more credible than any source you've consumed information from about this topic up until this point.

Yes, harp on one of my sources when you haven't given anything.

It is quite impossible to exonerate them from being called terrorists under your definition of the word. Your definition would probably apply to numerous slave rebellions, the Vietnamese resistance, and many other legitimate resistance groups. I'm lumping Hamas (and the other members of the Palestinian resistance) in with those groups, and I've said what I want to say in order to support that position. So you can use whatever word you like, but use it for all of them.

I've asked you numerous times for the evidence you claimed you had but could not share for fear of being censored. Do you even have the evidence? I'm willing to hear or read it.

at this point I think this conversation is going in circles, and I've gotten a lot off my chest. I am going to give it a rest for a while

Sure, when you come back just give me the evidence you had

 

[Cancel cult]

It's such a stupid thing to say because it's mostly just northern Europeans being unable to deal with spice. White people from the southern parts of Europe love spicy stuff, just look at Calabrian or Balkan food

White in the US is just a weird way to describe British I feel. The American image on people of European descent doesn't apply to like 70% of Europe

I reject all those labels. I will be unable to tolerate spice, not out of my lineage, but out of my own identity.

 

[Oglemi]

I think at this point the debate on Hamas and its "legitimacy" has run its course in this thread. I think it's safe to say that they view themselves as freedom fighters and they are not the cartoonishly evil terrorists that Western media likes to paint them as, but I think it's well within reason to acknowledge that they've also committed atrocities in the name of their perceived justice. What the IDF is doing is horrendous and a recognized genocide, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say the oppressed have a right to defend themselves.

I encourage those that wish to continue to do so in DM, that way your articles and links can be unfettered. In this thread, however, we need to be careful of how information is presented and from whom it originates.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I think at this point the debate on Hamas and its "legitimacy" has run its course in this thread. I think it's safe to say that they view themselves as freedom fighters and they are not the cartoonishly evil terrorists that Western media likes to paint them as, but I think it's well within reason to acknowledge that they've also committed atrocities in the name of their perceived justice. What the IDF is doing is horrendous and a recognized genocide, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say the oppressed have a right to defend themselves.

I encourage those that wish to continue to do so in DM, that way your articles and links can be unfettered. In this thread, however, we need to be careful of how information is presented and from whom it originates.

This is a very disappointing decision and I urge you and the moderating team to reconsider that decision.

The only way we get to awareness is by continuing the discussion publicly.

Putting this behind closed doors is not the way forward.

Over 41,000 people have died and millions more are in imminent danger, every single day.

With respect, I’ve always provided my sources, explained myself, and pointed to news and current events.

Why can’t that continue?