It seems the discussion is focusing in on the character of Hamas as an organization specifically... though I'm unconvinced that's even a very important conversation to have. Barring an all out war where Iran defeats a fully US backed IDF with direct US committed forces (ie. 99% no-- though I'd urge US citizens to understand that Iran's power/capability/societal sophistication is completely different from Iraq's when we conquered it-- we REALLY don't want that war), the only path to peace for Palestine is for the US (specifically a Democratic Administration) to reign in its rabid attack dog-- and to that end centralizing a discussion on characterizing Hamas, which will only fracture the Democratic coalition-- seems extremely unproductive to me.
That said, if the discussion needs to be had-- and I think a minor Pokemon forum with zero ability to affect wider US politics discourse outside the site is a perfect place to have this kind of discussion-- we're extremely limited, as intent is almost impossible to "prove" even in court of law with much more controlled fact finding.
As a more normie westerner who hasn't dug past the easily consumable material to try to paint a "true picture" of Hamas, I'd say I don't know the reality of the group's intent, and it's hard enough to even know "the facts." Frankly, intent is so hard to discern "truth" on I don't think I could form a confidently "correct" opinion either way, even if I spent all my waking hours reading through all possible online material-- which I won't.
But I'd have to say that I do find it troubling/disturbing to try to answer these questions:
1) What is the average age for a Gazan?
2) What do we think the average age of a Hamas member is?
3) In the West, how old do we say a person needs to become before they reach full mental maturity?
4) When was the barricade created, and Gaza isolated behind the wall?
Going through that list of questions, I don't think it's hard to imagine a small organization like Hamas being disturbingly made up of very young men who have lived their whole lives in a concentration camp. Keep in mind, when war with Russia broke out many liberals and leftists were even saying (rightfully imo) "don't even look at Russian soldiers uniformly as villains here-- in many ways, these conscripted men are also victims of the situation." The young men growing up in Gaza are in a context far, far more worthy of our sympathy-- those who don't AND do choose to join Hamas.
You can take a hard Deontological argument and morally judge a person or organization divorced from the context... I personally don't subscribe to that view of the world. There are are actions, intent, and context. And I just want to say that even without being able to know everything about the "truth" of Hamas, the easily discernable facts of its context paint a jarring picture.
Regardless, all the power and all autonomy sits with the US and Israel. Regardless of what Hamas does, it is with the US only that things can be changed/resolved. For that reason, it's far much more important to understand and judge the actions of the US than any other party here.
That said, if the discussion needs to be had-- and I think a minor Pokemon forum with zero ability to affect wider US politics discourse outside the site is a perfect place to have this kind of discussion-- we're extremely limited, as intent is almost impossible to "prove" even in court of law with much more controlled fact finding.
As a more normie westerner who hasn't dug past the easily consumable material to try to paint a "true picture" of Hamas, I'd say I don't know the reality of the group's intent, and it's hard enough to even know "the facts." Frankly, intent is so hard to discern "truth" on I don't think I could form a confidently "correct" opinion either way, even if I spent all my waking hours reading through all possible online material-- which I won't.
But I'd have to say that I do find it troubling/disturbing to try to answer these questions:
1) What is the average age for a Gazan?
2) What do we think the average age of a Hamas member is?
3) In the West, how old do we say a person needs to become before they reach full mental maturity?
4) When was the barricade created, and Gaza isolated behind the wall?
Going through that list of questions, I don't think it's hard to imagine a small organization like Hamas being disturbingly made up of very young men who have lived their whole lives in a concentration camp. Keep in mind, when war with Russia broke out many liberals and leftists were even saying (rightfully imo) "don't even look at Russian soldiers uniformly as villains here-- in many ways, these conscripted men are also victims of the situation." The young men growing up in Gaza are in a context far, far more worthy of our sympathy-- those who don't AND do choose to join Hamas.
You can take a hard Deontological argument and morally judge a person or organization divorced from the context... I personally don't subscribe to that view of the world. There are are actions, intent, and context. And I just want to say that even without being able to know everything about the "truth" of Hamas, the easily discernable facts of its context paint a jarring picture.
Regardless, all the power and all autonomy sits with the US and Israel. Regardless of what Hamas does, it is with the US only that things can be changed/resolved. For that reason, it's far much more important to understand and judge the actions of the US than any other party here.
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