Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

[Anchor9]

Alomomola has proven to be an extremely strong Defensive Pivot that’s starting to fit on a large amount of teams due to the metagame getting bulkier and also appreciating slow pivots for powerful but fragile breakers like Chien-Pao and Marshadow. Regen cores have been popular in many metagames, but now NatDex Ubers finally has a very strong core.

Regen Core​

Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Flip Turn
- Toxic
- Protect
- Wish

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Toxic
- Defog
- Brave Bird / Whirlwind

Alomomola and Ho-Oh are excellent walls that cover each-others weaknesses extremely well, although a few threats such as Zekrom and Specially Offensive Yveltal can be problematic. With Toxic, the two can pivot between each-other and wear down threats like Primal Groudon, defensive Arceus-formes, and opposing Ho-Ohs. The two are effective at preventing balance teams that rely on chip damage provided by Ferrothorn and defensive Yveltal from making any progress while wearing the breakers such as Primal Groudon and Marshadow down. With Tera, the two can neutralize hyper offense threats such as Ultra-Necrozma and Wallbreaker Primal Kyogre. All that needs to be done is managing to get Toxic on the foe, then the Regeneration + Protect-Wish-Flip Turn from Alomomola does the work. Ho-Oh with Brave Bird can pressure Arceus-formes while Whirlwind prevents setup, preventing the core from getting overwhelmed by Meteor Beam Eternatus or defensive Primal Kyogre. There are some holes in the core that can be hard to deal with, such as Zekrom, Specially Offensive Yveltal, and Mega Mewtwo Y. Primal Groudon, Arceus Fairy, and Arceus Dark work well as teammates for this core. Alomomola can also still do Alomomola things and pivot in wallbreaker like Chien-Pao and Choice Spec Eternatus to put offensive pressure. I think this core can be really strong if built around well. What are some defensive cores y’all have found to be extremely strong for this metagame?

 

[bumboclaat]

Building Alomomola Balance

​

Alomomola is something I've been meaning to make a post about for a while. It is a relative newcomer to the tier that, unsurprisingly, was developed by R8. It ascended from some shitmon that R8 was messing around with to anchoring its archetype of balance fairly quickly. A Pokemon going from UR->B+ in a single slate is quite a leap. We have another slate coming up soon and my hope is that it rises to A-. I'm higher on Alomomola than most, but it is close to an A rank mon personally. Thanks Anchor9 for making a post about and giving me a reason to discuss Alomomola specifically rather than as part of a post covering the metagame at large.

Choosing a Set

Alomomola only has one set with two variations: physical or mixed bulk. When I first started experimenting with Alomomola, I consulted National Dex Ubers' Master Chef R8. This was just after Xerneas was banned and R8 mentioned that phys def Mola wasn't great unless the team was really weak to Zacian-C. As time has progressed and I've had a more experience with Mola that statement still rings true. Phys def Mola does have a few other things that are technically benefits, but don't move the needle. It does handle physical attackers slightly better, but outside of Zacian-C this doesn't really make much of a difference. Alomomola can help v physical Arceus-Ground or Zygarde in a pinch, but shouldn't be the primary means of dealing with them. Some calcs are in the spoiler below.

Calcs

+3 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 452-534 (95.7 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+3 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 452-534 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 229-270 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 229-270 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 189-223 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 282-333 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 186-219 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 279-328 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola in Heavy Rain: 135-159 (28.6 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola in Heavy Rain: 203-239 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Those are just a few, the biggest difference between mixed and phys def is how passive physdef Mola can be at times. The lower SpD makes it a lot harder to somewhat shrug off hits from defensive Pokemon such as Etern and Arceus formes means that it is much less forced to Wish and consequently is a signifcantly better pivot. Furthermore, the smaller Wishes are not a tradeoff as they are still huge and a 32 HP difference isn't going to be making a difference very often.

Wishing is great, being forced to Wish isn't and is very exploitable. This is also another reason why I'm not a fan of Rocky Helmet. Mola isn't a special tank, but when invested it can take a lot of special hits if needed to bring in a check. It struggles to do this if it is phys def and a RH makes it so much more difficult to do so due to hazards. Alomomola relies a lot on Regenerator and it is often nullified with RH between hazards, status, and a hit upon entry or Flip Turning out.

Whenever I build with Alomomola I'll always default to mixed. I don't tend to build a style of team that needs phys def Mola, but it is a lot easier to change Mola to phys def than vice versa. I tend to default to Tera Dark, but anything that serves a purpose works. The poison immunity is nice, but there is almost always going to be something that needs tera more than Alomomola.

Choosing Partners​

Alomomola can support a wide range of Pokemon, but it also has clear flaws and limitations that need to be addressed in the builder. Chiefly that Alomomola has poor special bulk and it doesn't beat much 1v1. Alo can sponge a special hit when needed, but it is not a special tank. It can pivot out into whatever option is available for the threat in front it, but it isn't dealing with itself. It can Toxic stall some stuff in the end-game, but it rarely deals with Pokemon directly. The picture below contains all the Alomomola teams in my builder. Some of these such as Gravity Eternatus are not serious, but there are a lot of similarities between the proper teams. Lets look at how different mons synergize with Alomomola.

The Defogger

Giratina-O is far and away the best Alomomola partner. The largest reason I've strayed away from using it in past metas is due to the effort involved in micromanaging its HP. Alomomola means that this meticulous task is no longer needed. Furthermore, it means Giratina-O can 'cheat' abit and invest more in Speed to outpace Zygarde and some more SpA for an oomph. Giratina-O's bulk is massive, but its mediocre typing gives it a lot of poor matchups. It can EV itself to live an Eternatus Dynamax Cannon for example, but it will be out of commission afterwards. It isn't getting healed up to full, but Alomomola's Wishes are more than enough to keep Giratina-O healthy.

Giratina-O is also the easiest Pokemon to pass a Wish to and Alo will get plent of opportunities on Pokemon such as Primal Groudon or Zygarde. They do struggle with some of the same Pokemon, but when Giratina-O isn't limited by its own pool of HP it can be played more aggressively, especially with Tera. It can afford to stay in and Thunder Wave the Eternatus for example. Giratina-O is incredibly customizable as any set will work decently well. Thunder Wave is generally my preference for a status move, but any will work.

It works better than Ho-Oh as Choice Scarf Yveltal appreciates being healed and can provide additional pivoting support while being quite good into HO. Its ability to nearly always remove webs is especially appreciated on Alo teams as that matchup is often a winnable, but uphill battle. Its ability to emergency check Zacian-C and Marshadow is greatly appreciated. Some speed control is always quite nice as well.

Regardless of the set, in my experience Ho-Oh is a generally poor teammate for Alomomola. Defensive Ho-Oh doesn't help a ton against the mons that Alomomola has trouble with whilst not really recieving substantial benefits. It rarely needs Wish support and the main mon it would like a slow pivot into, Primal Groudon, prevents that. Defensive Ho-Oh can already be passive itself whilst sharing issues with many of the same mons such as Taunt CM Arceus formes and Eternatus. Offensive is a little better because it appreciates the healing, but still runs into similar issues. Of the two Ho-Oh - Alomomola teams I have, one is outdated and from the day after Xerneas was banned whilst the other is very much a WIP where I wanted to see if Alo + Caly-I could work together as a double cleric duo. I'm not the biggest fan of this combo due to how passive it can make a team whilst it also passes off too much of the workload v defensive teams to other members.

The Primal Groudon Set

Alomomola definitely can be run without Primal Groudon, especially on fat teams such as Bob's Chien-Pao Semistall. Outside of incredibly fat teams Primal Groudon is great alongside Alomomola. Mola enhances the capibililty of defensive Primal Groudon whilst also enably funky sets like defensive mixed SD. Either work fine, though I'm not the biggest fan of utility SD. Having the Overheat is super nice for opposing fat and stall while Rock Tomb is nice alongside, but not in place of. The stall matchup can be very annoying without Overheat on a lot of compositions.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 40 SpD / 152 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rock Tomb
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat

This is a set I like using from time to time with Alomomola. I also don't run it without Stealth Rock Taunt Arceus-Fairy. Freed up from setting entry hazards Primal Groudon is free to run more offensive sets. I settled on this spread. The physical bulk is the same as standard defensive Primal Groudon. I've taken a lot of SpD EVs, but it still is 4HKOed by defensive Primal Kyogre Ice Beam, making it easy to Wish in front of. The speed outspeeds 341 speed Arceus formes at -1. It can go as low as 100 speed to outspeed uninvested 90s. The closest offensive hitpoint I found was 60 SpA to OHKO LO Yveltal on the switch w/ Overheat 100% of the time. Chucking it in attack works as well.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock / Toxic
- Toxic / Dragon Tail / Roar
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat

Standard defensive Primal Groudon is also great with Alomomola and a heal helps so much even if it is to offset hazard chip. Roar and Dragon Tail are slashed because it always needs one of Toxic or Stealth Rock. Phasing is nice when paired with Zacian-C to handle Fairy-types and those that Tera Fairy. It also takes care of the Taunt CM Arceus formes that would block Primal Groudon from using Roar. Phasing is great and it is always nice to have a tool against Gothitelle. Just make sure the stall matchup is good as Primal Groudon will have a slightly rougher time if phasing.

Deciding on the Arceus

Most Alomomola teams are going to want an Arceus forme. Bob's doesn't have one, but that is an exception. One thing all of the mons discussed so far heavily dislike is LO Yveltal and CM Taunt Arceus-Dark or any Arceus-Fairy solve that and provide other things. Other Arceus formes are usable, but are often a step down or are going to require very specific building.

Arceus-Dark does handle Yveltal fairly consistently so long as it is Calm Mind. Calm Mind Arceus-Dark semi-requires SpD investment as Oblivion Wing does enough to force a Recover and Arceus-Dark is not immediately threatening to Yveltal though it will beat it at +1. Taunt is a bit harder overall to use in game on account of worrying about status, but is a better set. Refresh is still decent, but works best when paired with powerful breaker(s) that cleave through fat. Calm Mind Arceus-Dark in general is very good on teams that require solid LO Yveltal counterplay, but not to the degree that Arceus-Fairy is needed. It provides more than just Yveltal counterplay, but that is a big component. DD Necrozma-DM is the only notable target that Calm Mind fails to handle compared to defensive. Additionally, the SpD is very nice as a Meteor Beam Eternatus stopgap and anything above 332 Speed works though I don't find it worthwhile to go above 342.

Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Poison / Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 156 SpD / 104 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Taunt / Refresh

Yveltal tends to be very threatening into these types of teams, ergo Arceus-Fairy fits well on them. Calm Mind works, but I much perfer Stealth Rock. It enables the Primal Groudon set mentioned above and is the support rather than requiring support. A phys def set does work if needed, but SpD is signifcantly better. Arceus-Fairy works best with 330, 332, or 341 Speed. 372 is usable on Calm Mind sets, but having no SpD really stings when switching into Yveltal is going to be required a couple times per game.

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Dark / Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Recover
- Judgment

Addressing Threats

So at this point in time, four slots are likely to be filled: Alomomola + Fogger (likely Tina-O) + Primal Groudon + Arceus forme that handles LO Yveltal. Two slots isn't a lot left to cover what you want, and it is here that Mola's inflexibility finally rears its head a bit. There are still some big things that need to be covered.

There is not a great way of dealing with Marshadow yet. Choice Band in particular is quite threatening as it does far too much damage for Alomomola to safely scout. Either Coil or DD Zygarde work defensively though the latter is a bit shakier. It can be outoffensed reasonably well.

Mainly offensive sets. Toxic Spikes can be annoying without an Eternatus of your own, but are managable. Special Giratina-O handles offensive Eternatus with Tera + Thunder Wave. Outside of that it is quite annoying. It is the easiest of these to handle defensively. Calm Mind Arceus-Dark can work in a pinch, but it needs to be healthy.

Ekiller is managable, but still annoying if Taunt. This is mainly for faster CM Taunt Arceus formes. Some way of handling them through offensive pressure or disrupting them through defensive play is needed or they will fairly easily find a turn to boost and win. It is easier to handle them offensively, but the slowing them down via the Primal Groudon set above works well enough for something else to handle them.

Primal Groudon switches in once to offensive sets and that is kind of it. Mitigating it is going to likely be a team effort, but it will frequently pick up a kill. Once chipped a bit it becomes reasonable to handle, but offensive Primal Kyogre is very common at the moment and playing a sac game vs it will likely not go well. Arceus KOes it at low health, but isn't often going to want to 1v1 even if it is CM.

Filling in the Blanks


Either Coil or Tera Ground DD work well. Both provide their own benefits. Coil is the defensive staple we all know and love (or hate) while DD provides a decent wincon v balance, BO, and sometimes HO at the cost of a lot of defensive value. The biggest drawback of DD is having to play a lot more cautiously around Marshadow and to a lesser degree, offensive Primal Kyogre. DD really appreciates the extra power from Tera Ground against Marshadow, Eternatus, and Calm Mind Arceus formes.

Defensive sets can fit, but offensive ones, particularly wallbreaker, but ocassionally Choice Specs are great. Eternatus gives the ability to somewhat ignore hazards as Toxic Spikes are likely to be the biggest concern. Sludge can be run on specific teams, but Fire Blast is generally better. Not many people seem to be running SpD on their CM Arceus so it is ok into those currently. If going defensive, boots with Toxic + T Spikes are probably the way to go to ease the matchup v Webs teams.

Mola + Frail Breaker = good v1. Make sure Eternatus is handled well enough in the last slot. Zacian-C should not be hard to get into sneak range.

Mola + Frail Breaker = good v2. The main things it has over Marshadow are the Eternatus matchup and not requiring much support for Stall.

Covers CM Arceus formes, offensively checks Primal Kyogre + Eternatus. It is useless into stall and has near zero defensive utility though. It is good, but there is less variety when choosing your 6.

Fun, but slower option. Mola solves one of Primal Kyogres main issues which is longevity. It is able to break midgame and clean up a lot more consistently.

 

[Cancel cult]

I think it's time we invent a tier below C-, and then put this shitmon even lower than that.
Annihilate is a pokemon not even I believed in. However, I have found ONE legitimate use for it.
I am in the process of trying to prove that not only is Slurpuff a good web setter, but it is the best web setter in the tier, at least for teams that need or really really want webs to stay up, which Slurpuff actually allows thanks to its relatively incredible consistency. However, the main problem is that while Slurpuff can set webs up, it is helpless to stop the setup sweeper that just set up for free from killing everyone. So I decided to experiment.
I needed a pokemon with the following qualities:
Ghost type (so I can switch into a rapid spin)
A way to get rid of setup sweepers
A way to stop defog
Now, along with these qualities, I also didn't want it to be dead weight. I experimented with Spectrier, but you really don't know how little damage Spectrier does until you use it. But then, I found the pokemon. Annihilape. Now, while to get rid of a setup sweeper it's faster than, it can use Final Gambit, you might be wondering how it can get rid of a pokemon it's slower than.

You aren't ready for the answer.


Annihilape @ Focus Sash
Ability: Vital Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Final Gambit
- Endeavor
- Taunt
- Vacuum Wave

Yes, I am proposing FEAR to the viability rankings. God, I wish I was joking.
Now, I know that FEAR is a gimmicky strat that is easy to counter. However, the two main ways to counter it are hazards and switching to a ghost type. For the former, if the opponent is sending out a setup sweepers to set up while you set down hazards, then they won't be able to set hazards by the time you get Annihilape on the field, and for the latter, if your opponent switches to a ghost type to not get killed by FEAR, then congratulations, you just got rid of the setup sweeper. (It's worth noting that as long as you have priority on your team, you can, and maybe should ditch Vacuum Wave for a different move, but I run Vaccum Wave so I am not forced to send out Arceus every time) And in terms of not being dead weight, Annihilapes whole thing is trading. In this incredibly specific niche, Annihilape is the best possible choice. I have successfully found a single instance where you would actually want to use Annihilape, which makes it, by definition, viable.

So while I get the replays, mentally prepare yourselves for the stupidity that is to come.

Now, if you would excuse me, I'm late to the circus, and haven't got my clown makeup on yet.

Ehhh… I don’t think this works especially well. You’re dedicating two team slots just to keep Webs up without being easily setup on, meaning your team will have extreme issues in breaking through the opponent’s defensive core.

This can be true, but if you are good at team building, you might be able to find four pokemon that are good enough on their own. I'm not, but happened to stumble upon them anyways. Also, thanks to Annihilape, you get a free trade, and still keep the four pokemon capable of doing things.

Annihilape isn’t stopping Arceus formes and Yveltal from Defogging due to that Speed tier.

The former will be stopped after Webs. There's nothing you can do about the latter, but the only sample set with defog is the Choice Scarf one, and there isn't a lot any pokemon can do about that.

Against setup sweepers, Annihilape is, funnily enough, totally outclassed by Focus Sash Marshadow, which can perform FEAR and reverse sweep with Spectral Thief.

If you are a normal person, and prioritize actual usefulness over being able to deny Defog, this is what you would likely run. But as we have established, I am not a normal person.

Yes, but the Slurpuff that is able to set webs with incredible reliability doesn't run Yawn.

This Annihilape set is bizarre as well. It is COMPLETELY walled by Ghost-types, which includes Giratina-O, aka the second best and second most common Defog user in the tier behind Ho-Oh.

Taunt blocks Defog, and there's like one ghost type setup sweeper in the whole tier. Not to mention that you can change Vacuum Wave to something that threatens them, like Toxic (if giratina rests, you can switch) or something.

Slurpuff + Annihilape also leaves a huge weakness to Utility Swords Dance Primal Groudon, which sets up on Slurpuff (easily stopped by Yawn), and sets rocks as it switches out into Annihilape, who's stuffed as soon as there's a Ghost-type on the opposing team, or a super bulky Pokemon like defensive Eternatus, support Arceus forme and defensive Yveltal.

Its not that hard to stop a Groudon that just used SD. Just outspeed it, and you lose at most two pokemon. Eternatus alone regularly just wins games.

Ive decided to in fact not do this, but will leave this post up partly in case I ever decide to do it, and partly as a memorial to my stupidity. If a mod decides to delete this to get rid of clutter on this thread, you have my gratitude.

 

[Anchor9]

View attachment 666384
I think it's time we invent a tier below C-, and then put this shitmon even lower than that.
Annihilate is a pokemon not even I believed in. However, I have found ONE legitimate use for it.
I am in the process of trying to prove that not only is Slurpuff a good web setter, but it is the best web setter in the tier, at least for teams that need or really really want webs to stay up, which Slurpuff actually allows thanks to its relatively incredible consistency. However, the main problem is that while Slurpuff can set webs up, it is helpless to stop the setup sweeper that just set up for free from killing everyone. So I decided to experiment.
I needed a pokemon with the following qualities:
Ghost type (so I can switch into a rapid spin)
A way to get rid of setup sweepers
A way to stop defog
Now, along with these qualities, I also didn't want it to be dead weight. I experimented with Spectrier, but you really don't know how little damage Spectrier does until you use it. But then, I found the pokemon. Annihilape. Now, while to get rid of a setup sweeper it's faster than, it can use Final Gambit, you might be wondering how it can get rid of a pokemon it's slower than.

You aren't ready for the answer.


Annihilape @ Focus Sash
Ability: Vital Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Final Gambit
- Endeavor
- Taunt
- Vacuum Wave

Yes, I am proposing FEAR to the viability rankings. God, I wish I was joking.
Now, I know that FEAR is a gimmicky strat that is easy to counter. However, the two main ways to counter it are hazards and switching to a ghost type. For the former, if the opponent is sending out a setup sweepers to set up while you set down hazards, then they won't be able to set hazards by the time you get Annihilape on the field, and for the latter, if your opponent switches to a ghost type to not get killed by FEAR, then congratulations, you just got rid of the setup sweeper. (It's worth noting that as long as you have priority on your team, you can, and maybe should ditch Vacuum Wave for a different move, but I run Vaccum Wave so I am not forced to send out Arceus every time) And in terms of not being dead weight, Annihilapes whole thing is trading. In this incredibly specific niche, Annihilape is the best possible choice. I have successfully found a single instance where you would actually want to use Annihilape, which makes it, by definition, viable.

So while I get the replays, mentally prepare yourselves for the stupidity that is to come.

Now, if you would excuse me, I'm late to the circus, and haven't got my clown makeup on yet.

Ehhh… I don’t think this works especially well. You’re dedicating two team slots just to keep Webs up without being easily setup on, meaning your team will have extreme issues in breaking through the opponent’s defensive core. Annihilape isn’t stopping Arceus formes and Yveltal from Defogging due to that Speed tier. Against setup sweepers, Annihilape is, funnily enough, totally outclassed by Focus Sash Marshadow, which can perform FEAR and reverse sweep with Spectral Thief.

 

[Sami]

However, the main problem is that while Slurpuff can set webs up, it is helpless to stop the setup sweeper that just set up for free from killing everyone.

.

This Annihilape set is bizarre as well. It is COMPLETELY walled by Ghost-types, which includes Giratina-O, aka the second best and second most common Defog user in the tier behind Ho-Oh. Doesn't this set just lead to issues regarding maintaining Sticky Webs? Breaking through support Arcues formes with only 4 Pokemon can be more difficult than it seems, especially against more niche formes such as Arceus-Water unless you're using specific checks like Zekrom, which isn't ideal for a 4-sweepers team. Additionally, against Tera Ghost Pokemon like Arceus, this set is almost useless, as Extreme Killer will almost always use Tera Ghost due to fearing Low Kick, and Shadow Claw cleanly 2HKOes anyways (not that you could've done anything if it didn't barring Taunt). Slurpuff + Annihilape also leaves a huge weakness to Utility Swords Dance Primal Groudon, which sets up on Slurpuff (easily stopped by Yawn), and sets rocks as it switches out into Annihilape, who's stuffed as soon as there's a Ghost-type on the opposing team, or a super bulky Pokemon like defensive Eternatus, support Arceus forme and defensive Yveltal.

If I were to use Annihilape, I would rather use Choice Scarf Final Gambit, since Annihilape actually has good speed for a Choice Scarf Pokemon, outspeeding Deoxys-A and Zacian-C. Against the Ghost-types, you now have a fast U-Turn Pokemon for easy pivots into Yveltal or something else, and you still have attacking options into Arceus-Dark in a fast Low Kick which does hit decently hard. Rage Fist, although it may seem useless, could also have potential use into more passive Pokemon, such as bringing it in against Alomomola's Flip Turn, Garganacl's Salt Cure, Groudon's Rock Tomb and even Giratina-O's (or Zygarde's) Dragon Tail to an extent, which all would be somewhat useful against the bulkier teams that Final Gambit (although it does manage to OHKO offensive Eternatus at full) wouldn't deal enough for. Of course this is all theory-monning, but I'd say this looks far more legitimate than Focus Sash shenanigans.

 

[Ezael_Stormblood]

Look if we are considering anihilape or slurpuff to be viable then something must be dearly wrong. Why are you using slurpuff over other sticky web leads? I am genuinely interested to hear the reasoning on this one.

 

[Cancel cult]

Look if we are considering anihilape or slurpuff to be viable then something must be dearly wrong. Why are you using slurpuff over other sticky web leads? I am genuinely interested to hear the reasoning on this one.

Im still prepping the doc on literally every single one of its matchups, but until then, know that magic coat, unburden, and the ability to kill itself make it the most reliable sticky web setter in the tier.

 

[adem]

and this is why we dont run slurpuff because its a garbage webs lead, and stick to shuckle and smeargle.

 

[VolkPodEjovikom]

Can someone recommend trickroom team?

 

[unfuuny]

Can someone recommend trickroom team?

Hatterene, Caly-Ice and Kyogre-Primal are mandatory. Alternate sweepers are: Groudon-Primal, Ursaluna-BM, Melmetal, Basculegion-Male; alternate setters are Arceus, Cresselia(only pair this with melmetal), Lunala, Porygon2, maybe worse options like magearna and ive occasionally seen slowbro. Usually a tr team is 3 setters 3 sweepers, but ive seen teams with 2 setters 3 sweepers and a general good mon like band marshadow, zacian-c or rayquaza work.

Must say the playstyle is omega inconsistent and the moment the foe gets hazards up its usually joever, cuz then they can just ignore the sash and start preventing the tr from even coming up. also whirlwind is faster than trick room so ho oh is a pretty bad matchup.

 

[FunnyValentine2]

know that magic coat, unburden, and the ability to kill itself make it the most reliable sticky web setter in the tier.

Shuckle has a built in focus sash with Sturdy that allows it to hold Mental Herb, has access to Encore to goob various leads that could otherwise exploit it, and is bulky enough that other than Double Iron Bash no multi-strike moves can OHKO it and prevent webs going up. Slurpuff has no counterplay to Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear or Pheromosa Triple Axel unless you wanna stupidly burn your tera on a suicide lead. Shuckle also can accomplish a lot more before going down by setting up rocks and/or locking an opponent with Encore for multiple turns, completely killing their momentum (and it also has a suicide move for momentum with Final Gambit).
Slurpuff is also completely dependent on getting reads correct. As an example: against an Arceus-Ground on turn 1, the Slurpuff player might expect Taunt and use Magic Coat, but if the Arceus instead goes for Ice Beam and doesn't bring Slurpuff down to its sash, Slurpuff will either have to switch out or be sacrificed having contributed nothing. Slurpuff is a dumb gimmick. If you want to run a webs team, either use Shuckle for its consistency or Smeargle for best of 1 ladder cheese.

 

[Lord_G0gma]

All right, first post regarding metagame discussions so let’s see if I can start strong with this one.

We all know what Rayquaza is capable of, and I wouldn’t blame anybody for hating to see it in team preview. It's no question that the snake has enjoyed Terastallization’s introduction this generation, as its Band and Setup Sweeper sets make great use of a souped up Dragon Ascent to tear through unprepared teams. However, with recent metagame trends such as the centralizing Arceus-Dark and Fairy formes investing in more speed to combat threats like Yveltal as well as rises in viability of fast Pokemon such as Marshadow and Chien-Pao, the amount of targets Rayquaza can beat has thinned slightly. Because of that, I believe there are some unexplored routes that Rayquaza has yet to exploit among its peers.

In Lies Choice Scarf Rayquaza ​

Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
Tera Type: Flying / Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 20 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent 
- U-turn
- V-create
- Draco Meteor

OR

Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf  
Ability: Air Lock  
Tera Type: Flying / Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Def / 20 SpA / 172 Spe  
Naive Nature  
- Dragon Ascent  
- U-turn  
- V-create  
- Draco Meteor

Choice Scarf Rayquaza has potential at being a solid revenge killer, with it outpacing the entire unboosted metagame including +1 Zygarde while pressuring various threats with a dangerous mixed movepool. Furthermore, it has access to the coveted U-turn while having a solid matchup against Hyper Offense teams thanks to its immunity to Sticky Web and other grounded hazards; with these traits, Rayquaza can force KOs against weakened/frailer/uninvested targets or give its team a boost in momentum through pivoting on forced switches/emergency Terastallizations from the opponent.

Speaking of Terastallization, CS Rayquaza continues to find itself a great user of this mechanic, with Flying and Fire being solid options to enable its revenge killing prowess. Tera Flying gives it the ability to 2HKO bulkier Arceus formes with hazards up, meaning they can’t safely switch in to sponge a hit and retaliate at the start of the following turn–something Choice Band sets have to be wary of. On the other hand, Tera Fire makes Rayquaza’s V-create an even stronger means to pressure Arceus-Fairy and other neutral foes that may try to sponge a predicted Dragon Ascent while also limiting Chien-Pao’s attempts at revenge killing by turning Ice Shard into a resist.

And finally, regarding EVs, the Speed is somewhat flexible depending on what you want to achieve. The first spread lets Rayquaza retain its ability to outpace fully invested base 90s and Speed-tie the slower support Arceus formes after a V-create drop while allowing it to also Speed-tie a +1 DD Arceus-Ground—this Speed tier can prove particularly useful if overwhelming Arceus-Fairy with Tera Fire is desired. The second spread instead has just enough Speed to beat Pheromosa, with 16 HP and 48 Def EVs allowing Rayquaza to take Tera Dark Chien-Pao’s Sucker Punch from full, and most notably, Tera Ghost Choice Band Marshadow’s Shadow Sneak after Stealth Rock or a -1 Defense drop from Dragon Ascent.

Okay, but Why Not Just Use Choice Scarf Yveltal?​

While Choice Scarf Yveltal is great in its own right, CS Rayquaza differentiates itself thanks to the specific targets they find themselves dispatching, creating distinct niches they inhabit with little overlap.

Yveltal Targets

• Necrozma (Dusk Mane/Ultra)
• Physical Arceus Formes (E-Killer, DD Ghost/Ground)
• Swords Dance Primal Groudon variants
• Kyurem-B
• DD/SD Rayquaza

Rayquaza Targets

• Offensive Dragons (Palkia-O, Eternatus, Zekrom, Choice Band Rayquaza)
• Zygarde (DD, Defensive, Trapper)
• Zacian-C
• Choice Band Chien-Pao

The most noteworthy differentiation between both Choice Scarf users is that Rayquaza has the capacity to take on several of the offensive Dragon-types of the tier as well as most variants of base Zygarde with Draco Meteor, with even the most specially bulky variants of Zygarde falling after minor chip damage. Furthermore, with Dragon Ascent and V-create supporting the other side of the attacking spectrum, it more reliably threatens Zacian-C and Choice-locked Chien-Pao than Yveltal can without having to rely on Terastallization, allowing its allies to opt for it instead.

Of course, Yveltal contrasts this by being more consistently threatening into Necrozma—both Dusk Mane and Ultra—as well as having the bulk to more readily take on offensive Primal Groudon variants on top of physical Arceus formes and Kyurem-B, which is nothing to scoff at. Luckily both Pokemon are also able to offensively check Marshadow rather consistently regardless if it has Terastallized or not, with Rayquaza easily removing non-Tera forms from full with Dragon Ascent, while Yveltal punishes Tera Ghost from full with Foul Play. Because of this, I would offer to say that both these sets generally have different niches they fulfill, and they’re able to coexist as a result without stepping on each other’s toes.

Notable Scarf Ray Benchmarks

W/O Tera

• 252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 524-618 (168.4 - 198.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 20 SpA Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 288-339 (92.6 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

• 20 SpA Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 422-498 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 252 Atk Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 524-618 (163.2 - 192.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 252 Atk Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Marshadow: 262-309 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes; guaranteed OHKO when including Life Orb recoil, requires minor chip against other sets/items

• 252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 386-456 (118.7 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 20 SpA Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 422-498 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

——
W/ Tera

• 252 Atk Tera Flying Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 202-238 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

• 252 Atk Tera Fire Rayquaza V-create vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 226-267 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• 252 Atk Tera Flying Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 170-200 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

• 252 Atk Tera Flying Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 236-278 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• 252 Atk Tera Flying Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 316-374 (92.6 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

• 252 Atk Tera Flying Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Marshadow: 350-412 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 252 Atk Tera Flying Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 348-410 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

• 252 Atk Tera Fire Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 375-442 (94.2 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So now we know what Choice Scarf Rayquaza can accomplish, but a more important question has yet to be discussed: what teammates best fit with this set? Such a mon is only as good as the team it supports, so what synergies help bring about its full potential?

Useful Teammates​

A rather no-brainer of an option with sheer unpredictability in set types, Tier King Primal Groudon appreciates CS Rayquaza threatening the many Dragon-types that tend to harass it such as Eternatus, Palkia-O, and Zygarde, allowing it to focus on handling other threats such as Arceus-Fairy and Primal Kyogre in return. U-turn is of great benefit too, as Rayquaza can scout for potential switches to safely pivot this behemoth into, such as a shared check in Ho-Oh or a Zacian-C bold enough to attempt absorbing a resisted Dragon Ascent or Draco Meteor.

Conversely, the final member of the weather trio makes for a solid pairing as well. Both members welcome one another pressuring Primal Groudon, and Primal Kyogre appreciates an offensive check to both Zacian-C and Zekrom, allowing it to preserve more HP and overwhelm threats Rayquaza is unable to break without Terastallization, such as Arceus-Dark and Fairy. Defensive sets deserve special mention due to their good matchup against stall teams, breaking through Dondozo and Giratina while Rayquaza can force mindgames on the opponent if played well through the combination of Dragon Ascent, Draco Meteor, and pivoting via U-turn.

Marshadow loves the pivoting power allies can provide it with its less than ideal bulk hampering switch-in opportunities, and it especially enjoys Rayquaza forcing Arceus-Dark as well as—depending on the moveset Marshadow runs—Ho-Oh and Zygarde into the field. The pair also help to combat Hyper Offense structures, with Rayquaza’s Speed and immunity to Sticky Web letting it revenge kill threats like Meteor Beam Eternatus and Zacian-C while Marshadow dissuades setup sweepers such as E-Killer Arceus and SD Rayquaza thanks to Spectral Thief and useful priority in Shadow Sneak.

Ol’ Reliable. Both offensive and defensive variants of Eternatus synergize well with Rayquaza, as it helps to deal with Yveltal and—if it has Sludge Bomb—Arceus-Fairy, while offering a secondary means of dealing with Marshadow if Rayquaza is too weakened to handle Shadow Sneak. Also, Toxic Spikes are a powerful means to wear down bulkier teams, which helps to ease Rayquaza and its team’s workload at whittling down threats into revenge killing range.

As the tier’s most reliable Defogger, Ho-Oh helps to maintain Rayquaza and its team’s longevity by removing the sneaky pebbles and other such hazards. Its ability to more readily handle the aforementioned Arceus formes including non-physical Arceus-Ground sets, as well as having longer staying power with Regenerator, gives it slightly more synergistic value versus Giratina-O; however, having to be wary of Rock-type moves from Primal Groudon and co. should always be considered when choosing the team’s hazard remover.



No Pokemon is without flaw, especially in these power-crept metas. So now I’ll list some common foes that I’ve noticed Choice Scarf Rayquaza struggling against, which hopefully can contribute to building stronger teams it can both rely on and be relied upon.

Threats​

Although Calm Mind sets can be revenge killed through the use of Terastallization, Arceus-Ground still requires a decent chunk of HP to be whittled away to be within Dragon Ascent/V-create range. Dragon Dance variants are much harder to beat in this regard, depending on whichever Speed investment the Rayquaza user decides to run. While the faster variants can Speed-tie a +1 Arceus-Ground, this is incredibly unsafe and usually is in the Arceus user’s favor at best. If the Arceus-Ground just so happens to be Speed-crept or is max Speed, forget it.

On paper Rayquaza should have an edge against Ultra Necrozma 1-on-1, but the reality is that there’s a ridiculous amount of mindgames that the Rayquaza user has to go through to predict when the Necrozma-DM will Ultra Burst and change Types, which usually results in a massive loss of momentum if the wrong move is picked. It’s usually better to just U-turn in such a case and fall back on the team’s Dark-type and/or Marshadow, as Rayquaza is wholly unable to touch Ultra Necrozma once it has used Dragon Dance.

Rayquaza’s ability to handle Kyurem-B depends half on the Nature the opponent is running while at +1 Speed, and half on whether or not it will choose to go Tera Electric or Fairy. While simply opting to use V-create can mitigate this guessing game in the 1v1 while also preventing Kyurem-B from setting up a Substitute after Stealth Rock, the risk of outright losing Rayquaza to Icicle Spear or Scale Shot is generally not worth it against Hyper Offense teams.

Despite Draco Meteor doing great damage to Giratina, there’s a reason as to why it’s a Stall staple. Pressure closes the gap that Rayquaza has to aid its allies uncomfortably quickly, and by needing careful consideration as when to use a physical or special move against Giratina and its teammates, a player needs to play incredibly well to ensure Rayquaza’s tools aren’t wasted against Stall.

Replays​

And finally, here are some replays I’ve been gathering to showcase Choice Scarf Rayquaza’s potential. However, as Ladder does Ladder things, these games may not be very representative of what one would expect at high-level play and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Replays

• Game 1
  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2183320828

• Game 2
  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2189246535-z19hhj4n2nsngcc2iim9hq97begm936pw

• Game 3
  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2189766968

• Game 4
  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2191475254

• Game 5
  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2194399763-p24odiad4hvhlu0vejz80ocpej97iv0pw

• Game 6
  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2199507868-bpfhg5jr59702b5389mc6by6sv5skmopw

Replay Summaries

G1:

• Turn 30:
  • Tera Flying Rayquaza ensures an OHKO on Tera Ghost Marshadow w/ Dragon Ascent, lets Arceus-Fairy and Mega Tyranitar preserve HP.
• Turn 64:
  • Rayquaza uses Draco Meteor on DD Zygarde on a free switch, securing an OHKO. This lets Primal Groudon perform better at endgame. CS Yveltal cannot achieve this.
• Turn 70:
  • Tera Flying Rayquaza revenge kills CM Arceus-Ground with the help of Primal Groudon keeping its health under a 65% HP threshold. CS Tera Dark Yveltal is unable to achieve KO at such parameters.

G2:

• Turn 14:
  • Rayquaza revenge kills +2/+2 Bulk Up LO Marshadow w/ Dragon Ascent.
• Turn 18:
  • Rayquaza revenge kills Meteor Beam Eternatus w/ Draco Meteor from full HP. CS Yveltal cannot achieve this.

G3:

• Turn 12:
  • Rayquaza secures KO on chipped LO Yveltal w/ Dragon Ascent on a double switch. Tera Flying was not required; Yveltal was under the 58% minimum HP threshold for standard Dragon Ascent.
• Turn 48:
  • Rayquaza forces Eternatus out and KOs Tera Grass Ho-Oh on switch; forced Tera pressuring from ally Primal Groudon turns a 2HKO into OHKO.
• Turn 53-55:
  • Tera Flying Rayquaza cleans the remaining team of Eternatus, Palkia-O, and Arceus-Fairy with Dragon Ascent. CS Yveltal does not achieve this.

G4:

• Turn 11:
  • Rayquaza revenge kills Zacian-C w/ V-create.
• Turn 15-16:
  • Tera Flying Rayquaza aggressively switches into Tera Grass Arceus-Water Judgment, and scares it out with an OHKO from presumed Dragon Ascent. Zygarde switches in, only to be OHKOd by a Draco Meteor prediction. CS Yveltal does not achieve this.
• Turn 19:
  • Tera Flying Rayquaza revenge kills Tera Grass Arceus-Water from full; non-Tera guarantees OHKO were hazards present. CS Yveltal is unable to achieve OHKO parameters.
• Turn 20:
  • Tera Flying Rayquaza chunks opposing Giratina-O to ensure ally Giratina-O KOs in 1v1 with Poltergeist.

G5:

• Turn 7:
  • Rayquaza Terastallizes to ensure OHKO on offensive Primal Kyogre; w/o Tera, 87.5% chance to KO Primal Kyogre after Blissey’s Seismic Toss. CS Tera Dark Yveltal requires a roll to KO Primal Kyogre at a 68.8% chance.
• Turn 16:
  • Rayquaza OHKOs Meteor Beam Eternatus with Draco Meteor. CS Yveltal does not achieve this.
• Turn 19:
  • Rayquaza revenge kills LO Marshadow with Dragon Ascent.

G6:

• Turn 61:
  • Rayquaza scares out Choice Band Chien-Pao and forces Tera Water Garganacl in to take Dragon Ascent; Rayquaza 2HKOs Garganacl and every other possible threat from their current HP values. CS Yveltal is unable to threaten a 2HKO on all the remaining Pokemon that are able to switch into its combination of moves.
• Turn 74:
  • Rayquaza revenge kills Choice Band Chien-Pao, preserving team’s HP to finish off Alomomola + Arceus-Dark core.

And that’s it! Hopefully I’ve been able to make a somewhat compelling reason to consider trying out this set, because I think with some proper experimentation, Choice Scarf Rayquaza can be a genuine threat within the tier.

 

[Cancel cult]

Time to discuss a pokemon I've had my eye on for a while:
Mew @ Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magic Coat
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
Mew is a surprisingly decent lead thanks to it being able to outspeed a decent portion of the metagame and its access to Magic Coat. Now, what sets it apart from Deoxys-Speed? Well, it has a better matchup against it and some other pokemon, and Whirlwind can really help deny setup sweepers, make openings to set hazards where there otherwise wouldn't be any, rack up some extra hazard damage, and overall be a pain, but on average, Deoxys-Speed will set more hazards. But here's the fun part. Because Mew has such a large movepool, that last move can be a number of things, one of my favorite sets being Choice Scarf+Trick. This can really catch your opponent off guard. But I can already hear you saying that surprise factor isn't viable, because once they learn what is happening, they can adapt. And that is an excellent point. But let me show you something. Here is an exclusive peek into my Teambuilder.

Here we have nine identical teams, with the only difference being the Mew set being used. Most are just variations of the hazard setter, but I have a setup sweeper one, and one solely designed to combat Trick Room. Why? Because I can. While I haven't tested most of these out, the top three have been tested, and proven to be able to do their job with above adequate capability. There is no possible way for my opponent to know what Mew set I am bringing, even if they know every single Mew set I have. Does this make Mew viable? I don't think so. But this isn't a no. I think Mew has serious potential, and if its options and element of surprise are explored more, it could carve a respectable niche in this tier. As it stands, Mew is a more than usable hazard lead with a big element of surprise capable of substituting Deoxys-Speed, and there's so much more to discover. If anyone wants to make innovations, this is the pokemon to look at. It has been proven it can be used, and with such a deep movepool, it is more than possible that it can be proven to be viable.

 

[bumboclaat]

Initially I'd planned to make a metagame discussion post after NDPL finished. I'm not dismissing NDFL, but I think I'd likely get impatient sitting on the post if it was done for a couple of weeks and I'd hedge my bets that the three remaining games arn't going to have some huge metagame developments. However, writing the recaps for NDPL and NDFL has me thinking a lot about broader metagame stuff which I briefly touched on in the W3 NDPL review with Zygarde and Gothitelle. I realized it has been two months since I've last made a post about some broader stuff. Before getting into it I'd like to give a shoutout to Lord_G0gma for the post above. I'm not personally sold on Choice Scarf Rayquaza, but these sorts of well thought out posts are what metagame discussion threads are for and if anyone else has other sets or mons they think are potentially overlooked and have a niche I'd highly recommend that you post them. Somehow this thread is closing in on 170k views so it is likely a lot of people lurk and posting something here means it isn't going to be lost or forgotten about in discord.

While we don't find one team and stick with for eternity, most players certainly have their preferences. If you run into myself or Bobsican you can probably expect to see some sort of balance or BO with myself favouring the more offensive side and Bob the defensive side. If you run into Adem you can probably expect some form of Eternatus BO or Unecro offense. Every player has their own preferences and these in turn have an effect on how one interacts with and experiences the metagame. One can try to make sure they are cognizant of their own biases, but everyone is exists in their own bubble and is trapped by their perspective to some degree.

Every player has their own takes on different aspects of the metagame and you'll often find players disagreeing about things, particularly when discussing the minutiae of the metagame. Some viewpoints may be objectively correct, but most takes have people on both sides where both sides can be correct despite disagreement. An example would be that in the last couple of VR slates, Primal Groudon was unanimously agreed to be the best mon in the metagame, but there was some disagrement on whether there was enough of a gap between Primal Groudon and the #2 to justify a S+ rank. Personally I think there is, but there are valid reasons why one might ascribe to this viewpoint.

I thought this would be a shorter post, but I've managed to fit in an impressive amount of rambling before getting to the main topic: the outsized presence certain mons and/or sets exert either in the game, the teambuilder, or in some case both. Every metagame has its list of offensive and defensive threats that any good team needs to be able to reasonably handle. It is unreasonable to expect every team to be able to handle everything, but generally it shouldn't immediately shudder at seeing most of the A- or higher mons.

Whilst I'm sure most people have a least something they wouldn't mind changing about the tier, broadly speaking it is in a good spot. Whilst the tier was playable during the Xerneas metagame, it was overly matchup fishy and has only trended in a positive direction since. Skill expression both in battle and in the teambuilder are at an all time high and the better player will win the vast majority of the time. The metagame is far from stagnant with plenty of room for innovation. Even 'boring good stuff' teams are constantly finding new ways to take advantage of new ev spreads, movesets, and sometimes mons. While you can find success sticking to relatively established structures, players are heavily rewarded for taking the intiative to experiment.

In the current metagame you can find success with just about anything. While I don't think that the strength of any playstyle has drastically changed since my last post a couple of months ago, the way players are finding success with them have. These changes and some of the more subtle effects they have both in game and on teambuilding will be the main focus of this post this is just gona be about Zygarde. I'll go into more depth about broader metagame stuff and discuss more mons post NDPL, but I have some stuff that I'd like to discuss and didn't feel like waiting a month to do so.

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 12 HP / 216 Atk / 48 SpD / 232 Spe
Tera Type: Ground
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail

Calcs

+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 180-214 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 102-120 (23 - 27%) -- 44.5% chance to 4HKO

+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Dark: 224-264 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Dark: 124-147 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 84-99 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 84-99 (14.5 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO

+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 204-242 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Zygarde: 277-327 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 312-368 (96 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Tera Ground Zygarde: 262-310 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 314-370 (97.8 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 216+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 141-166 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 58-69 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 114-136 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (20 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Zygarde: 58-70 (16.1 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Zygarde: 276-325 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zygarde is here not because of the mon as a whole, but rather the Dragon Dance set specifically. Zygarde has been included in every tiering survey we've had to date and courts the loudest dretractors. What baffles me is that the complaints by and large focus around the Coil set. Whilst undeniably an S- tier set at worst, it isn't something that any good team should be fearing at preview. Paralysis can be silly, but it shouldn't be plowing through any good team at preview. Every playstyle has ample options to contain it without going out of their way to include it. Yes it will cheese wins here and there due to the yellow magic, but in the grand scheme of things more games are going to be decided by Primal Groudon missing Precipice Blades, Sacred Fire coinflips, Dark Pulse flinches and the like.

If anything Coil Zygarde is at an all time low. Coil Zygarde has always been quite containable, but it faces a more hostile metagame than ever. Taunt Arceus formes were already the gold standard of splashable defensive counterplay, but Taunt Calm Mind sets use Zygarde as setup fodder have risen from niche options to staples on both balance and offensive structures. Alomomola has shot through the stratsophere and can safely get checks safely without having to worry about paralysis mindgames. Giratina-O, with or without its fishy friend is an uncorfortable matchup at best as it cannot Rest through Hex. Life Orb Yveltal is another mon Zygarde despises. Gothitelle easily removes it even if it is nowhere to be seen for some reason.

Despite this Coil Zygarde remains a top mon in the metagame, it has a lot less breathing room than it used to. The metagame has shifted in a proactive direction, even amongst fat balances where this is represented by the rise of Garganacl. Coil Zygarde is an integral defensive piece of many teams which would simply not work. While Zygarde has room to adapt, particularly with its EV spread, most of these benefits come alongside significant drawbacks that often require the slack to be picked up elsewhere in the builder. Even something as minor as slotting some speed EVs to outspeed a paralyzed Zacian-C comes with the drawback of a much shakier matchup against Zacian-C itself and Double Dance Primal Groudon.

Ultimately, a good team shouldn't be fearing Coil Zygarde at preview. It absolutely can and will put in work if not respected, but it does have to put in some effort to do so. It takes time to ramp up, often requiring 3 turns to setup in addition to a lot of chip spread around the team. It isn't able to simply rely on the yellow magic to enable it to sweep consistently. This is what makes Coil Zygarde balanced even if Glare is a bullshit move. Dragon Dance Zygarde does not oprate under the same constraints.

While Dragon Dance Zygarde hasn't fundamentally changed since USM, it is a 'new' threat. Despite having an entry on the strategy dex the entire generation it has remained in the shadows until recently. June is the first month where it even registers in the 1760+, but even that was at 3.3% use and appears to be one person using Loaded Dice with Scale Shot for whatever reason. For comparisons sake, the set I'm concerned about (Tera Ground Leftovers on the strategy dex) reached 14.1% use in September. Its nonexistence in both tournament and on ladder makes this a 'new' set for all intent and purposes.

So why has this Zygarde set rose to prominence all of a sudden? It comes with a signficant opportunity cost, forgoing the traits which have made Zygarde one of the best mons in the metagame. It eschews bulk investment and consequently provides minimal defensive utility. Notably, Dragon Dance Zygarde doesn't even switch into even defensive Primal Groudon comfortably, one of the more important roles Coil Zygarde is expected to fill. It doesn't use Glare which Coil Zygarde heavily relies on to setup end-games. It also uses tera primarily for offensive purposes rather than purely defensive. These are all pretty big things to give up which does limit its splashability.

While there is some flexibility, the set shown above is the standard that Dragon Dance Zygarde rarely deviates from. So what exactly makes this set so threatening? The answer primarily lies in Dragon Dance Zygarde's ability to invalidate much of Coil Zygarde's offensive and defensive counterplay as it becomes an actual offensive threat after a single boost despite its mediocre 100 Attack and relying on a 90 BP move.

Tera Fairy Dondozo completely counters any Zygarde set, but that is limited to stall and has to find a turn to tera in the first place. If it is unable to do so switching into Dragon Tail with Stealth Rock up will result in it finding itself in range of Tera Ground Thousand Arrows quite quickly. The stall player is still certainly favoured, but Zygarde even having a possibility to muscle its way through against a playstyle it infamously thuds into is quite something.

Stall is neither good nor particularly common, nor something any team is going to expect Zygarde to do much against. So how do other styles generally deal with Zygarde defensively? Usually a hard check + a soft check is more than sufficient to limit it. Furthermore, the options to handle Coil Zygarde are quite varied and splashable relative to other top mons. Some are listed above and importantly, their ability to check Coil Zygarde is generally unaffected by Tera compared to handling something Zacian-C or Eternatus.

Dragon Dance Zygarde excels at punishing methods of counterplay that consistently work against Coil Zygarde. +1 Zygarde still tickles most mons with any semblence of bulk, but even the gold standard to Coil Zygarde, Bold Taunt Arceus formes, lose to Coil Zygarde. At best they are most often trading themselves to keep Zygarde at low HP and Taunted to something else is able to revenge it due to taking a minimum of 40% from +1 Thousand Arrows.

This dynamic is best shown in this NDPL game. My team has a horrible matchup against Emoxu9's as any attempt I can make at forcing progress is easily answered, except for Zygarde. A risk pays off and Zygarde scares out Eternatus to get a free Dragon Dance. In comes Tera Fairy defensive Arceus-Dark, ostensibly only for this set. Zygarde muscles through this and is only prevented from sweeping due to me losing the 50/50 and throwing away a Substitute worth of HP on top of Arceus-Dark getting a max Foul Play roll followed by a very high roll. If these rolls are even simply high, Zygarde would have enough HP to Substitute and would have swept.

This is against a team that has very conciously incorporated counterplay specifically against Dragon Dance Zygarde to the deteriment of important matchups such as Life Orb Yveltal and still barely won despite Zygarde only getting one boost. Bold Arceus formes have also largely fallen out of favour due to Life Orb Yveltal and Timid sets are 2HKOed.

Notably, I've only talked about two moves so far and the last two are essential to allowing Zygarde to invalidate other formes of defensive counterplay. Substitute importantly protects Zygarde from status while also enabling it to easily transform if it has already boosted. It also plays a key role in enabling Dragon Dance Zygarde to use opposing Coil Zygarde and Alomomola as setup fodder as they're unable to break it while preventing Gothitelle from trapping it. However, Dragon Tail is truly le pièce de résistance. It turns defensive Ho-Oh from something that Zygarde would fear seeing to something it can turn into setup fodder with +2 Dragon Tail outdamaging Regenerator to add insult to injury.

So how exactly do you handle it defensively? Outside of Tera we don't really have Ground-type resistances. If someone can make Tapu Bulu, Shinotic, or Whimsicott work power to them. The difficulty in handling it defensively relies in doing so consistently. Outside of Coil Tera Fairy Zygarde, it is very difficult to do so. Bold Arceus formes do not fit on most teams. Tera Fairy Ho-Oh works on paper, but it really wants Tera Grass or Dark for other matchups.

This is further complicated by Substitute which makes things even murkier. The mons which can outspeed +1 Zygarde generally are unable to take +1 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows so rely on a pivot or coming in afterwards if it was limited to one Dragon Dance. Funnily enough, 8 Atk EVs on Alomomola ensure that it will always break the Substitute with Flip Turn before transformation if Zygarde Tera Grounds which helps a lot, but relies on forcing Zygarde to do so.

Even then things can remain a bit dicey because Zygarde at +1 is fairly fast and will still survive a fair amount of neutral hits. Chien-Pao on paper seems ideal, but if Zygarde hasn't transformed it will outspeed it and requires some chip to be revenged by Ice Shard while Chien-Pao itself is OHKOed by +1 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows. Mons such as Deoxys-A, Pheromosa, or Choice Scarf Yveltal are much better, but are incredibly dependent on the Substitute being broken or in Yveltal's case, Stealth Rock being off. Triple Axel sounds like perfect counterplay until you realize that after Tera Ground it takes 2 hits to even break the sub and Yveltal needs to Tera Dark to actually OHKO it in this situation. That Tera Grass defensive Yveltal was loaded in NDPL speaks volumes.

Even all of the above isn't something I find inherently problematic. Lots of tiers have mons which are fantastic against defensive mons, but are easily overwhelmed offensively. Lunala and Rayquaza are relevant examples in this tier. However, Dragon Dance Zygarde is actually fairly annoying for offense. The clearest example of this is Smeargle incorporating Perish Song both on ladder (30% use in September 1760+) and in tournament. This is almost entirely a response to Dragon Dance Zygarde as it can just sub Turn 1, Dragon Dance twice and 6-0 most Sticky Webs teams from the lead without it. Shuckle doesn't do much better.

Zygarde can do the same to Glimmora as it is outsped and unable to break its Substitute. If Mega Diancie lacks Explosion it is able to do the same while Grimmsnarl and Deoxys-S obviously prevent this. Even outside of these scenarios Zygarde remains pretty dangerous to a lot of HO teams. Dragon Tail plays an important role in preventing Arceus or Arceus-Ground from using it as setup fodder. Generally smacking Zygarde with a hard special attack does the trick, but even Eternatus requires Tera Dragon to knock it out with +1 Dynamax Cannon while LO Yveltal fails to OHKO with Tera Dark Dark Pulse.

Hyper Offense teams certainly will limit Zygarde better than most archetypes, but they don't love to see it either. It is a playstyle that on paper shouldn't really care much about Dragon Dance Zygarde, given their power and ability to prevent it from setting up. That Zygarde is able to put in work against a playstyle that should blow it up is something I find concerning. It is far worse against HO than balance or BO, but it still goobs with unsettling frequency.

My view ultimately is that I'm not sure whether Dragon Dance Zygarde is worthy of tiering action going forward. At least presently, it isn't making the tier unplayable by any stretch. It comes with a lot of opportunity cost. It doesn't really switch in much, it is quite vulnerable to status and its setup opportunities are quite limited. It also isn't a huge threat without a boost and Tera Ground. Outside of taking a hit it doesn't really have much defensive utility and has to be played carefully to actually be dangerous. It also isn't broken in the slightest without tera, but I'm not sure I'd vote to ban that either. It also locks you out of Coil Zygarde, which is something I do believe the tier would be unplayable without.

This is something I've been mulling over the past couple weeks and I'm still not certain about it. It isn't as though Zygarde just finds a turn every game and sweeps. More often it will take a mon or two so something else can easily clean up. It does this with alarming consistently. Initially I'd planned to make a post discussing this and a few other things, but this has been long enough I'm going to call it here. If anyone else has thoughts on Dragon Dance Zygarde please weigh in.

---

Edited some stuff because I accidently left some stuff in I ended up rewriting. I also want to clarify that these views are my own and not I am not speaking for any other council members.

Tl;DR - Dragon Dance Zygarde is AG worthy in a vacuum. Even then I don't think I'd vote to ban it and view it as the #3 priority in terms of potential tiering action at best. It comes with a lot of opportunity costs and the issues arising from banning Zygarde as a whole far exceed those I have with this set.

 

[Cancel cult]

Alright, time to share something of value for once.

Something you have probably thought before is "Wow, cancel cult. You are really terrible at this format. Your knowlege of the metagame is truly nonexistant. How do you manage to get such high ELO when you are so bad at pokemon?" Well, I am here to share with you my secret. I have accidentally stumbled across a really good team core. I will now share this core with you, and you too can win while still being terrible at the game.

The Win Button (Eternatus) @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
This thing just kills everything. It is a pretty low effort win condition that OHKOs way too much. The amount of games Eternatus alone has won me is ridiculous.

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Taunt / Earthquake
Extreme Killer is just so nice to have. Yes, it is a pretty nice win condition, but it also is just so convenient to have a pretty strong priority move on hand at all times.

Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 24 HP / 248 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
Super bulky, powerful, and volatile, this is just so nice to have. Even when it dosen't sweep the entire team, it will save your skin so often.

While not a key part of the core, I will often run Specially Yveltal as well.

Anyways, to make sure no one actually likes one of my posts, time to discuss something else.
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Ground
Serious Nature
- Heat Crash / Overheat / Eruption
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
(No EVs, because I don't have the Groudon set on the computer I'm using for this, and I'm too lazy to go to my other computer and get it, but it doesn't really matter, because the EVs aren't the important part)
I think that Pdon with just Rock Polish is an option worth exploring. For one, you can use it against a fast pokemon, for example Zacian, to get the first hit in on whatever switches in next, limiting your opponents options on what to use to revenge kill you, and also just doing an extra good bit of damage. It also helps you predict a switch without needing to know exactly what is coming in next. While you could still just hit things like Pogre if you invest in speed, Rock Polish lets you save on speed and invest in other areas. I think there is merit to choosing Rock Polish over Swords Dance. Then again, I am an idiot.

 

[adem]

Well, I am here to share with you my secret. I have accidentally stumbled across a really good team core. I will now share this core with you, and you too can win while still being terrible at the game.

The Win Button (Eternatus) @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
This thing just kills everything. It is a pretty low effort win condition that OHKOs way too much. The amount of games Eternatus alone has won me is ridiculous.

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Taunt / Earthquake
Extreme Killer is just so nice to have. Yes, it is a pretty nice win condition, but it also is just so convenient to have a pretty strong priority move on hand at all times.

Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 24 HP / 248 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
Super bulky, powerful, and volatile, this is just so nice to have. Even when it dosen't sweep the entire team, it will save your skin so often.

While not a key part of the core, I will often run Specially Yveltal as well.

i think u have just discovered my sample team
https://pokepast.es/2ea9efc4cedef770

 

[Adriyun]

i think u have just discovered my sample team
https://pokepast.es/2ea9efc4cedef770

I think you got it mixed up! he made this team and you stole it and made it a sample. not cool adem.

 

[unfuuny]

Initially I'd planned to make a metagame discussion post after NDPL finished. I'm not dismissing NDFL, but I think I'd likely get impatient sitting on the post if it was done for a couple of weeks and I'd hedge my bets that the three remaining games arn't going to have some huge metagame developments. However, writing the recaps for NDPL and NDFL has me thinking a lot about broader metagame stuff which I briefly touched on in the W3 NDPL review with Zygarde and Gothitelle. I realized it has been two months since I've last made a post about some broader stuff. Before getting into it I'd like to give a shoutout to Lord_G0gma for the post above. I'm not personally sold on Choice Scarf Rayquaza, but these sorts of well thought out posts are what metagame discussion threads are for and if anyone else has other sets or mons they think are potentially overlooked and have a niche I'd highly recommend that you post them. Somehow this thread is closing in on 170k views so it is likely a lot of people lurk and posting something here means it isn't going to be lost or forgotten about in discord.

While we don't find one team and stick with for eternity, most players certainly have their preferences. If you run into myself or Bobsican you can probably expect to see some sort of balance or BO with myself favouring the more offensive side and Bob the defensive side. If you run into Adem you can probably expect some form of Eternatus BO or Unecro offense. Every player has their own preferences and these in turn have an effect on how one interacts with and experiences the metagame. One can try to make sure they are cognizant of their own biases, but everyone is exists in their own bubble and is trapped by their perspective to some degree.

Every player has their own takes on different aspects of the metagame and you'll often find players disagreeing about things, particularly when discussing the minutiae of the metagame. Some viewpoints may be objectively correct, but most takes have people on both sides where both sides can be correct despite disagreement. An example would be that in the last couple of VR slates, Primal Groudon was unanimously agreed to be the best mon in the metagame, but there was some disagrement on whether there was enough of a gap between Primal Groudon and the #2 to justify a S+ rank. Personally I think there is, but there are valid reasons why one might ascribe to this viewpoint.

I thought this would be a shorter post, but I've managed to fit in an impressive amount of rambling before getting to the main topic: the outsized presence certain mons and/or sets exert either in the game, the teambuilder, or in some case both. Every metagame has its list of offensive and defensive threats that any good team needs to be able to reasonably handle. It is unreasonable to expect every team to be able to handle everything, but generally it shouldn't immediately shudder at seeing most of the A- or higher mons.

Whilst I'm sure most people have a least something they wouldn't mind changing about the tier, broadly speaking it is in a good spot. Whilst the tier was playable during the Xerneas metagame, it was overly matchup fishy and has only trended in a positive direction since. Skill expression both in battle and in the teambuilder are at an all time high and the better player will win the vast majority of the time. The metagame is far from stagnant with plenty of room for innovation. Even 'boring good stuff' teams are constantly finding new ways to take advantage of new ev spreads, movesets, and sometimes mons. While you can find success sticking to relatively established structures, players are heavily rewarded for taking the intiative to experiment.

In the current metagame you can find success with just about anything. While I don't think that the strength of any playstyle has drastically changed since my last post a couple of months ago, the way players are finding success with them have. These changes and some of the more subtle effects they have both in game and on teambuilding will be the main focus of this post this is just gona be about Zygarde. I'll go into more depth about broader metagame stuff and discuss more mons post NDPL, but I have some stuff that I'd like to discuss and didn't feel like waiting a month to do so.

View attachment 674982
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 12 HP / 216 Atk / 48 SpD / 232 Spe
Tera Type: Ground
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail

Calcs

+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 180-214 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 102-120 (23 - 27%) -- 44.5% chance to 4HKO

+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Dark: 224-264 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Dark: 124-147 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 84-99 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 84-99 (14.5 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO

+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 204-242 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Zygarde: 277-327 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 312-368 (96 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Tera Ground Zygarde: 262-310 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 314-370 (97.8 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 216+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 141-166 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 58-69 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
216+ Atk Tera Ground Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 114-136 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (20 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Zygarde: 58-70 (16.1 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Zygarde: 276-325 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zygarde is here not because of the mon as a whole, but rather the Dragon Dance set specifically. Zygarde has been included in every tiering survey we've had to date and courts the loudest dretractors. What baffles me is that the complaints by and large focus around the Coil set. Whilst undeniably an S- tier set at worst, it isn't something that any good team should be fearing at preview. Paralysis can be silly, but it shouldn't be plowing through any good team at preview. Every playstyle has ample options to contain it without going out of their way to include it. Yes it will cheese wins here and there due to the yellow magic, but in the grand scheme of things more games are going to be decided by Primal Groudon missing Precipice Blades, Sacred Fire coinflips, Dark Pulse flinches and the like.

If anything Coil Zygarde is at an all time low. Coil Zygarde has always been quite containable, but it faces a more hostile metagame than ever. Taunt Arceus formes were already the gold standard of splashable defensive counterplay, but Taunt Calm Mind sets use Zygarde as setup fodder have risen from niche options to staples on both balance and offensive structures. Alomomola has shot through the stratsophere and can safely get checks safely without having to worry about paralysis mindgames. Giratina-O, with or without its fishy friend is an uncorfortable matchup at best as it cannot Rest through Hex. Life Orb Yveltal is another mon Zygarde despises. Gothitelle easily removes it even if it is nowhere to be seen for some reason.

Despite this Coil Zygarde remains a top mon in the metagame, it has a lot less breathing room than it used to. The metagame has shifted in a proactive direction, even amongst fat balances where this is represented by the rise of Garganacl. Coil Zygarde is an integral defensive piece of many teams which would simply not work. While Zygarde has room to adapt, particularly with its EV spread, most of these benefits come alongside significant drawbacks that often require the slack to be picked up elsewhere in the builder. Even something as minor as slotting some speed EVs to outspeed a paralyzed Zacian-C comes with the drawback of a much shakier matchup against Zacian-C itself and Double Dance Primal Groudon.

Ultimately, a good team shouldn't be fearing Coil Zygarde at preview. It absolutely can and will put in work if not respected, but it does have to put in some effort to do so. It takes time to ramp up, often requiring 3 turns to setup in addition to a lot of chip spread around the team. It isn't able to simply rely on the yellow magic to enable it to sweep consistently. This is what makes Coil Zygarde balanced even if Glare is a bullshit move. Dragon Dance Zygarde does not oprate under the same constraints.

While Dragon Dance Zygarde hasn't fundamentally changed since USM, it is a 'new' threat. Despite having an entry on the strategy dex the entire generation it has remained in the shadows until recently. June is the first month where it even registers in the 1760+, but even that was at 3.3% use and appears to be one person using Loaded Dice with Scale Shot for whatever reason. For comparisons sake, the set I'm concerned about (Tera Ground Leftovers on the strategy dex) reached 14.1% use in September. Its nonexistence in both tournament and on ladder makes this a 'new' set for all intent and purposes.

So why has this Zygarde set rose to prominence all of a sudden? It comes with a signficant opportunity cost, forgoing the traits which have made Zygarde one of the best mons in the metagame. It eschews bulk investment and consequently provides minimal defensive utility. Notably, Dragon Dance Zygarde doesn't even switch into even defensive Primal Groudon comfortably, one of the more important roles Coil Zygarde is expected to fill. It doesn't use Glare which Coil Zygarde heavily relies on to setup end-games. It also uses tera primarily for offensive purposes rather than purely defensive. These are all pretty big things to give up which does limit its splashability.

While there is some flexibility, the set shown above is the standard that Dragon Dance Zygarde rarely deviates from. So what exactly makes this set so threatening? The answer primarily lies in Dragon Dance Zygarde's ability to invalidate much of Coil Zygarde's offensive and defensive counterplay as it becomes an actual offensive threat after a single boost despite its mediocre 100 Attack and relying on a 90 BP move.

Tera Fairy Dondozo completely counters any Zygarde set, but that is limited to stall and has to find a turn to tera in the first place. If it is unable to do so switching into Dragon Tail with Stealth Rock up will result in it finding itself in range of Tera Ground Thousand Arrows quite quickly. The stall player is still certainly favoured, but Zygarde even having a possibility to muscle its way through against a playstyle it infamously thuds into is quite something.

Stall is neither good nor particularly common, nor something any team is going to expect Zygarde to do much against. So how do other styles generally deal with Zygarde defensively? Usually a hard check + a soft check is more than sufficient to limit it. Furthermore, the options to handle Coil Zygarde are quite varied and splashable relative to other top mons. Some are listed above and importantly, their ability to check Coil Zygarde is generally unaffected by Tera compared to handling something Zacian-C or Eternatus.

Dragon Dance Zygarde excels at punishing methods of counterplay that consistently work against Coil Zygarde. +1 Zygarde still tickles most mons with any semblence of bulk, but even the gold standard to Coil Zygarde, Bold Taunt Arceus formes, lose to Coil Zygarde. At best they are most often trading themselves to keep Zygarde at low HP and Taunted to something else is able to revenge it due to taking a minimum of 40% from +1 Thousand Arrows.

This dynamic is best shown in this NDPL game. My team has a horrible matchup against Emoxu9's as any attempt I can make at forcing progress is easily answered, except for Zygarde. A risk pays off and Zygarde scares out Eternatus to get a free Dragon Dance. In comes Tera Fairy defensive Arceus-Dark, ostensibly only for this set. Zygarde muscles through this and is only prevented from sweeping due to me losing the 50/50 and throwing away a Substitute worth of HP on top of Arceus-Dark getting a max Foul Play roll followed by a very high roll. If these rolls are even simply high, Zygarde would have enough HP to Substitute and would have swept.

This is against a team that has very conciously incorporated counterplay specifically against Dragon Dance Zygarde to the deteriment of important matchups such as Life Orb Yveltal and still barely won despite Zygarde only getting one boost. Bold Arceus formes have also largely fallen out of favour due to Life Orb Yveltal and Timid sets are 2HKOed.

Notably, I've only talked about two moves so far and the last two are essential to allowing Zygarde to invalidate other formes of defensive counterplay. Substitute importantly protects Zygarde from status while also enabling it to easily transform if it has already boosted. It also plays a key role in enabling Dragon Dance Zygarde to use opposing Coil Zygarde and Alomomola as setup fodder as they're unable to break it while preventing Gothitelle from trapping it. However, Dragon Tail is truly le pièce de résistance. It turns defensive Ho-Oh from something that Zygarde would fear seeing to something it can turn into setup fodder with +2 Dragon Tail outdamaging Regenerator to add insult to injury.

So how exactly do you handle it defensively? Outside of Tera we don't really have Ground-type resistances. If someone can make Tapu Bulu, Shinotic, or Whimsicott work power to them. The difficulty in handling it defensively relies in doing so consistently. Outside of Coil Tera Fairy Zygarde, it is very difficult to do so. Bold Arceus formes do not fit on most teams. Tera Fairy Ho-Oh works on paper, but it really wants Tera Grass or Dark for other matchups.

This is further complicated by Substitute which makes things even murkier. The mons which can outspeed +1 Zygarde generally are unable to take +1 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows so rely on a pivot or coming in afterwards if it was limited to one Dragon Dance. Funnily enough, 8 Atk EVs on Alomomola ensure that it will always break the Substitute with Flip Turn before transformation if Zygarde Tera Grounds which helps a lot, but relies on forcing Zygarde to do so.

Even then things can remain a bit dicey because Zygarde at +1 is fairly fast and will still survive a fair amount of neutral hits. Chien-Pao on paper seems ideal, but if Zygarde hasn't transformed it will outspeed it and requires some chip to be revenged by Ice Shard while Chien-Pao itself is OHKOed by +1 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows. Mons such as Deoxys-A, Pheromosa, or Choice Scarf Yveltal are much better, but are incredibly dependent on the Substitute being broken or in Yveltal's case, Stealth Rock being off. Triple Axel sounds like perfect counterplay until you realize that after Tera Ground it takes 2 hits to even break the sub and Yveltal needs to Tera Dark to actually OHKO it in this situation. That Tera Grass defensive Yveltal was loaded in NDPL speaks volumes.

Even all of the above isn't something I find inherently problematic. Lots of tiers have mons which are fantastic against defensive mons, but are easily overwhelmed offensively. Lunala and Rayquaza are relevant examples in this tier. However, Dragon Dance Zygarde is actually fairly annoying for offense. The clearest example of this is Smeargle incorporating Perish Song both on ladder (30% use in September 1760+) and in tournament. This is almost entirely a response to Dragon Dance Zygarde as it can just sub Turn 1, Dragon Dance twice and 6-0 most Sticky Webs teams from the lead without it. Shuckle doesn't do much better.

Zygarde can do the same to Glimmora as it is outsped and unable to break its Substitute. If Mega Diancie lacks Explosion it is able to do the same while Grimmsnarl and Deoxys-S obviously prevent this. Even outside of these scenarios Zygarde remains pretty dangerous to a lot of HO teams. Dragon Tail plays an important role in preventing Arceus or Arceus-Ground from using it as setup fodder. Generally smacking Zygarde with a hard special attack does the trick, but even Eternatus requires Tera Dragon to knock it out with +1 Dynamax Cannon while LO Yveltal fails to OHKO with Tera Dark Dark Pulse.

Hyper Offense teams certainly will limit Zygarde better than most archetypes, but they don't love to see it either. It is a playstyle that on paper shouldn't really care much about Dragon Dance Zygarde, given their power and ability to prevent it from setting up. That Zygarde is able to put in work against a playstyle that should blow it up is something I find concerning. It is far worse against HO than balance or BO, but it still goobs with unsettling frequency.

My view ultimately is that I'm not sure whether Dragon Dance Zygarde is worthy of tiering action going forward. At least presently, it isn't making the tier unplayable by any stretch. It comes with a lot of opportunity cost. It doesn't really switch in much, it is quite vulnerable to status and its setup opportunities are quite limited. It also isn't a huge threat without a boost and Tera Ground. Outside of taking a hit it doesn't really have much defensive utility and has to be played carefully to actually be dangerous. It also isn't broken in the slightest without tera, but I'm not sure I'd vote to ban that either. It also locks you out of Coil Zygarde, which is something I do believe the tier would be unplayable without.

This is something I've been mulling over the past couple weeks and I'm still not certain about it. It isn't as though Zygarde just finds a turn every game and sweeps. More often it will take a mon or two so something else can easily clean up. It does this with alarming consistently. Initially I'd planned to make a post discussing this and a few other things, but this has been long enough I'm going to call it here. If anyone else has thoughts on Dragon Dance Zygarde please weigh in.

---

Edited some stuff because I accidently left some stuff in I ended up rewriting. I also want to clarify that these views are my own and not I am not speaking for any other council members.

Tl;DR - Dragon Dance Zygarde is AG worthy in a vacuum. Even I don't think I'd vote to ban it and view it as the #3 priority in terms of potential tiering action at best. It comes with a lot of opportunity costs and the issues arising from banning Zygarde as a whole far exceed those I have with this set.

infiltrator dragapult dragon tail gg

 

[Zrp200]

Some people from the National Dex Ubers discord are going to know where this came from.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Ground
Serious Nature
- Heat Crash / Overheat / Eruption
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

I'm of the opinion that Heat Crash should never be ran with Stone Edge. Heat Crash's value lies mainly in the compression it gives by hitting major ground immunes very hard (with the very obvious exception of Giratina-O, which hard counters every heat crash set) while being much stronger neutrally than Stone Edge, but ultimately, it's redundant in the end.

In this case, for example, because you lack SD, even though you have Stone Edge here, Giratina-O STILL manages to check pretty easily:

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Giratina-Origin: 132-156 (26.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO​

I'm not going to go into unboosted Heat Crash calcs, because they're almost all redundant with Stone Edge versus every single relevant flier (Ho-Oh/Yveltal/Giratina-O) outside of the accuracy value, which is not a valid reason to run two moves that have the almost the same exact targets on the same set when you could run something that actually adds unique value like Fire Blast, Overheat, or Eruption.

What to run instead on this set​

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Eruption / Fire Blast / Overheat
- Rock Polish

If you look at the old gen analyses, you'll end up finding this in previous gens with Dragon Pulse or HP Ice over Stone Edge. There's a reason why there's no analysis for this gen: in those Gens, you could just solve Ho-Oh with Stealth Rock, so you just had to handle zygarde and giratina-o.

You can still run those, but you'll lose to Ho-Oh instead of those. That's the problem with this set, which just happens to be shared with the same exact set I'm responding to.

Even so, running special fire coverage adds a layer of depth to Primal Groudon while still retaining the niche of hitting very hard neutrally. Because you're not boosting, that ability to hit on a foe's weaker defense can matter, and all that's required really to handle Tera Grass is to hit them with any fire move.

If running Fire Blast, at least 76 SpA EVs should be ran to ensure you 3HKO Dondozo (assuming you actually hit...) so that it can't just sit on you forever. If you hate dondozo that much, you should be running Overheat or Eruption.

When to actually run Heat Crash​

The real value of the move is when it's paired with SD, because +2 Heat Crash is much more handy overall than +2 Stone Edge outside of Giratina-O for not only the sake of not missing, but also by virtue of hitting much harder neutrally, which in almost all cases foils every possible out-of-the-box attempt to check Primal Groudon: Ho-Oh immediately loses to +2 Heat Crash if it Teras at all to check something else, Yveltal going for Tera Dark to avoid the stone edge OHKO will meet a very rude awakening as it gets obliterated by a 150 BP +2 Heat Crash, and that shitty unmon that that ladder hero brought will absolutely dies to +2 Heat Crash.

Therefore, basically every Heat Crash set should basically look like this:
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Heat Crash
- Precipice Blades / Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish / Dragon Tail

Double Dance​

In the case of Double Dance, which is exclusively an HO set, there are two major lines of reasoning for why it is valid to run it over stone edge despite the drawbacks:
Heat Crash is better for check overloading because it hits neutral and resisted targets (outside of Giratina-O) much harder than other comparable moves would. Even Giratina-O itself will at least take some chip from Heat Crash.

Heat Crash is more reliable in neutral matchups and for 2HKOs​

Not only does Heat Crash not miss, but the fact it gets BP boosts versus annoying Pokemon like Yveltal to begin with makes it more reliable than just going for Stone Edge against such mons:

0 Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Yveltal in Harsh Sunshine: 261-307 (57.3 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Yveltal: 232-274 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

While both of these 2HKO, Stone Edge can (and often does) miss, particularly when relying on it to hit multiple times. In contrast, Heat Crash will reliably just 2HKO the thing and be done.

And yes, even though Ho-Oh can't be 2HKOed from full by +0 Heat Crash, a Ho-Oh with minor chip forced by another teammate or Toxic will put it into 2HKO range, and in a 1v1 scenario, Primal Groudon still wins.

Meanwhile, versus the majority of the metagame, notably including Arceus formes, Heat Crash will hit at least as hard as Precipice Blades without that annoying miss chance.

Heat Crash plays better with Tera counterplay forced by HO teammates:​

Any Tera on Giratina-O or Ho-Oh will cause Primal Groudon to directly break through them with Heat Crash:

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Tera Steel Giratina-Origin in Harsh Sunshine: 494-584 (98.2 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO​

And while, yes, this is more of an argument for Tera Poison >>>>>>> Tera Steel on Giratina-O, even Tera Poison will at least get 2HKOed by Heat Crash, letting Primal Groudon break through it in that particular instance.

+0 0 Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Tera Grass Ho-Oh in Harsh Sunshine: 524-620 (126.2 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

You better not have Terastalled your Ho-Oh previously. It WILL lose instantly to any Heat Crash Primal Groudon without that Fire resistance.

In contrast, versus Stone Edge, Tera Steel Giratina-O will actually hard wall the set, while a Tera Grass Ho-Oh will still be able to check Primal Groudon just fine.

Why not Stealth Rock?​

Do you WANT to get absolutely sat on by Giratina-O?????

Dragon Tail???​

Dragon Tail is listed here because I was honest to goodness about to write that Rock Polish was the only viable set for it and my cursed brain said noooo but what about this set it's a valid way of dealing with the fact that Giratina-O absolutely sits on Heat Crash sets otherwise and that Ho-Oh can otherwise Whirlwind your set-up Primal Groudon if it's healthy.

where does this set fit

Such a set is going to be a better balance breaker than anything else because stall still wins by virtue of Dozo and HOs will outspeed, preventing a sweep. Running this with Sticky Web is dumb because Ho-Oh can still Defog away your webs and Dragon Tail has negative priority. Running this on Trick Room is also suboptimal, because Eruption is just better.

This probably fits best on a fat or balance team that can provide support against stuff that outspeeds it.
Don't ask me for team examples, I just thought of this now while writing, the genius will come at later date.

Ho-Oh Case​

Consider the case of when Ho-Oh hard switches into Swords Dance or comes in after a sack.

You're, at best, looking at this calc here:

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh in Harsh Sunshine: 332-391 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

"Oh, 20%, that's not too bad"
But nooo, Ho-Oh has Regenerator, so it's actually that you need to have Ho-Oh at half, and even then, the Ho-Oh user still has options to trade teammates for more HP later.

Therefore, you will probably get whirlwinded out, ending your run right there. If you're unboosted to begin with, Ho-Oh can even Toxic and then Whirlwind Primal Groudon.

However, if you run Dragon Tail, you can at least avoid the Whirlwind aspect.
Ho-Oh absolutely cannot switch into +2 Heat Crash regardless of either Primal Groudon's investment or your own. Therefore, by forcing it out, you've just grabbed yourself, at worst, another kill.

Giratina-O case​

Okay, so this still isn't particularly great even with full investment:

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Giratina-Origin: 328-388 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Giratina-Origin in Harsh Sunshine: 123-146 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO​

Especially considering that Giratina-O will probably end up hard switching into Primal Groudon unless it is already weakened, here you can play mind games with Giratina-O by slapping it on the switch with Dragon Tail once before so that the follow-up boosted dtail will either KO it or put it into Heat Crash range, if Giratina-O wasn't already in range.

A physical Giratina-O going for Dragon Tail will end up falling into the same trap as Ho-Oh in the previous example.

Zygarde case​

Zygarde already likely wins, and Dragon Tail sets will totally just outspeed Primal Groudon anyway and phaze first.

But... versus Coil sets, you might get an interesting interaction:

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 212-250 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

Dragon Tail not only prevents Zygarde from immediately transforming after this, but it will (I guess depending a bit on the attack spread, given I just used 252) also put Zygarde into +2 Precipice Blades range and also prevent Zygarde from Coiling on Primal Groudon. This might require a bit of finnese vs Glare sets for the sake of not getting Paralyzed, but if done correctly, Primal Groudon can potentially bully Zygarde to the point where it can win by itself.

 

[FunnyValentine2]

Alright, time to share something of value for once.

Something you have probably thought before is "Wow, cancel cult. You are really terrible at this format. Your knowlege of the metagame is truly nonexistant. How do you manage to get such high ELO when you are so bad at pokemon?" Well, I am here to share with you my secret. I have accidentally stumbled across a really good team core. I will now share this core with you, and you too can win while still being terrible at the game.

The Win Button (Eternatus) @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
This thing just kills everything. It is a pretty low effort win condition that OHKOs way too much. The amount of games Eternatus alone has won me is ridiculous.

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw / Earthquake
- Taunt / Earthquake
Extreme Killer is just so nice to have. Yes, it is a pretty nice win condition, but it also is just so convenient to have a pretty strong priority move on hand at all times.

Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 24 HP / 248 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
Super bulky, powerful, and volatile, this is just so nice to have. Even when it dosen't sweep the entire team, it will save your skin so often.

While not a key part of the core, I will often run Specially Yveltal as well.

Anyways, to make sure no one actually likes one of my posts, time to discuss something else.
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Ground
Serious Nature
- Heat Crash / Overheat / Eruption
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
(No EVs, because I don't have the Groudon set on the computer I'm using for this, and I'm too lazy to go to my other computer and get it, but it doesn't really matter, because the EVs aren't the important part)
I think that Pdon with just Rock Polish is an option worth exploring. For one, you can use it against a fast pokemon, for example Zacian, to get the first hit in on whatever switches in next, limiting your opponents options on what to use to revenge kill you, and also just doing an extra good bit of damage. It also helps you predict a switch without needing to know exactly what is coming in next. While you could still just hit things like Pogre if you invest in speed, Rock Polish lets you save on speed and invest in other areas. I think there is merit to choosing Rock Polish over Swords Dance. Then again, I am an idiot.

all of these sets have existed for literal years

 

[Cancel cult]

all of these sets have existed for literal years

in terms of the core, i never claimed to invent the sets. they just work really well together, and i want more people to know how good of a core they are. in terms of rp pdon, it wasnt on the analasis page, so i didnt know actually good players used it.

 

[Bobsican]

Personal thoughts on the highlighted stuff nominated in the survey:

Terastallizing: It's a quite powerful gimmick that tends to define matches and has pushed several Pokemon too far, but at the same time I feel it has been relatively healthy for the metagame, more specifically with the trend of Dragon and Psychic-types in the tier, it's not required to fit some combination of Arceus-Fairy, Necrozma-DM, Arceus-Dark or Yveltal in every team, enabling a lot of defensive staples like Alomomola, Ho-Oh, and Giratina-O to perform crucial context-specific role compression without compromising other matchups, as then the Tera slot can just be used by another Pokemon, given it's once per battle limitation.

Zacian-C: The rise of Alomomola, Ho-Oh, and Zygarde have been holding it back for a while, but besides Primal Groudon being already vulnerable to chip damage and being worn down by other foes it's meant to check, it has been turning into an inconsistent check out of being vulnerable to +3 Tera Blast Ground just OHKOing even defensive variants on the spot, and it can still steal games out of all its checks but Ditto (which requires safe positioning anyways, thus often being a trade) relying on an inaccurate move to hit it (Precipice Blades from Primal Groudon, Focus Blast from Deoxys-A, Sacred Fire from Ho-Oh, etc). Additionally its bulk and solid typing make it virtually impossible to OHKO without using super effective STABs or considerable chip damage, for example, it can't be OHKOed by Choice Band Marshadow's Poltergeist after a layer of Spikes, nor can it be OHKOed by Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades after Zacian-C pulls Tera Ground or Fighting. Resisting Extreme Speed and outspeeding nearly the entire metagame also does no favors either.
However, Zacian-C can't run all the coverage it'd want out of being limited by Tera and Tera Blast options, has an ability that becomes useless after switching out, and becomes actively hindered if running Tera Blast when an ally already Terastallized instead. Honestly I'm not a fan of it and wouldn't miss it if gone, especially as it doesn't really add much to the metagame and instead demands every team to have either glorified soft-checks in practice, or very limited team compositions.

Zygarde-C: There's been a rise of Zygarde in tournaments and it's easy to see why. Zygarde heavily benefits from Terastallizing to remove its common weaknesses and become very difficult to KO, which it can then take advantage of by using a good portion of the metagame as setup fodder alongside its extra utility to hinder checks like Tera Grass Ho-Oh and Primal Kyogre with moves like Glare and Dragon Tail, especially for Dragon Dance sets as they can then avoid Taunt from what once was consistent counterplay like Arceus-Dark or Yveltal by moving first, either hindering them with Glare to ease an ally to break past them then enable further a Zygarde sweep, or hindering them with Toxic to put them on a timer and turn them into inappropiate answers, in practice only leaving Tera Fairy Dondozo as the only ranked consistent answer, which is limited to stall teams. Positive arguments for keeping Zygarde in the metagame boil down to its high mixed bulk preventing the tier from leaning more into offense, but I don't think that's as much of a concern as it's made to be when there's plenty of defensive Pokemon in the metagame.

Last Respects: While Basculegion-M and especially Houndstone aren't exactly problematic in the current metagame, strategies involving Last Respects don't engage skill and are blatant matchup fishing, so while technically not competitive, it staying doesn't heavily impact the metagame as its rather unreliable to not define the metagame in a notable manner, but I wouldn't mind if it was gone at some point.

Shadow Tag: Trapping is infamously broken as it breaks the dynamic of switching out to make the most of your Pokemon as a team with each member covering each other in different areas, but besides its heavily limited role to ease the matchup for offense against bulkier teams by breaking defensive cores, it only saw use once in the NDPL by me with Wobbuffet, and didn't perform that well in practice, so I don't feel it's currently universally inappropiate for the metagame, compared to just banning individual cases that prove to be too much (Mega Gengar).

Lately I've also been hearing complaints on Ultra Necrozma, namely on it being the main reaosn teams run Dark-types and/or Tera Dark Pokemon, and while admittedly it's a really strong part of the metagame, I don't think it's as broken as Zygarde-C or Zacian-C, as its inability to actually Terastallize means that it can't surprise foes with coverage, in fact if it wants to have a shot at breaking past Dark-types it has to either lock itself into Outrage then become easy to revenge kill by a Fairy-type or Necrozma-DM, or use X-Scissor and either lose to Flying-types like Ho-Oh and especially Yveltal by skipping Stone Edge, or losing to Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, and Zacian-C by skipping Earthquake, while also having consistent answers anyways like Tera Steel Giratina-O, Tera Dark Ho-Oh, Marshadow, and Chien-Pao. It's possible my thoughts on it change if some stuff gets banned down the line in any case.

 

[bumboclaat]

So NDPL is the first bigger team tournament I've participated in and it has been a fun experience even if the results were less than ideal. I've been building more than I ever have during these two months and have had a lot of fun doing so. A special thanks to Runo and A Fairy for drafting me, its been a great experience and hopefully things go better next year. I was really excited to support Eledyr and it has been nothing but a pleasure building stuff together and discussing the metagame. Lastly, Sami helped out quite a bit in testing and giving feedback so thanks as well! Also a big shoutout to Boomenheimer for truly bringing a boomin' attitude and rallying the troops.

Ultimately NDPL and NDFL combine for only 62 games. Then factor in that some people are supporting in both tournaments and the reality of this being a small sample comes into focus. Figuring out what is real and what is noise is somewhat difficult, but there certainly are meaningful conclusions about the metagame at large that can be drawn from these games.

NDP/FL Main Season Stats

Ever Shifting Tides​

Even if these tournaments didn't happen, there would still be plenty of metagame development over the course of the last two months. At the outset of NDPL fatter balance teams were seeing a lot of experimentation and seemed poised to strike gold on the big stage. This development stagnated as builders were more inclimes to experiment with the offensive end of the spectrum. Offense has seen a lot of success in NDP/FL, but this is subject somewhat, but not entirely to noise. Small player pool, sample size, and all that. It really doesn't feel like its been five months since I've written one of these.

Hyper Offense [A-] While offense may be on the upswing, HO specifically has dropped the ball a bit. It has been on a bit of a downwards trajectory for a while and NDP/FL hasn't done much to inspire confidence that things are likely to get better anytime soon. Screens are still fairly fraudulent, but does at least have its matchups. Hstack stuff is alright, but just decent. Sticky Webs are currently the best archetype as it is the most consistent on a game to game basis whilst also being somewhat flexible in composition. HO isn't currently bad, but its gone from the forefront of the metagame to increasingly having matchup issues. On an interesting note Eternatus has solidified itself as a staple and Arceus-Ground is giving Arceus some competition to where it is no longer an auto include. We've also seen a lot more Normalium-Z and Tera Normal Double Edge Ekillers which is cool. Personally I'm more of a fan of the offense teams that have been seeing success in NDP/FL than traditional hyper offense structures.

Offense [A-/A] Offensive structures that meaningfully differentiate themselves from BO and HO while maintaining some flexibility are probably the biggest change recently. Skimmy and Emoxu9 have both made a couple of teams I've quite liked. These teams are less flowcharty than HO and this leads to a great flexibility in game which I quite like. Mid-range offenses are not quite as good as they were during the Koraidon metagame, but are better than they've been since it was banned. This could also be a case of sample size and selection bias. It will be interesting to see if these sorts of teams develop further or are a brief trend.

Bulky Offense [A] BO is at a bare minimum a contender for and arguably the best playstyle currently. A lot of the scariest threats right now are mons which can leverage their defense and quickly turn it into offense and most of these fit pretty well onto BO at the moment. Having that defensive backbone helps a lot when the options for checking offense have few, but easily fillable blind spots.

Balance [A/A-] The best balances right now are on the offensive spectrum to where they are not far off from bulky offenses. Building the necessary defensive core isn't too straining so the better balances have been those which are more proactive and play rather fluidly. The sort of bulkier and passive balances that saw success in the Xerneas metagame just kind of get rolled over by most things these days. Balance as a whole feels due for a minor shakeup in the coming months. Even if balance teams have many familiar faces, their movesets, ev spreads, and tera types have and are evolving.

Fat Balance [A-/B+] Prior to NDPL fat balance was at relative highs. Over the last couple of mons it has been knocked down a peg as the more passive fat balances have shown themselves to be overwhelmed by most playstyles. Stall is maybe better than those teams currently though there are still lots of good fat balances around. These are primarily proactive teams which use mons such as Garganacl and Ferrothorn to force progress. While fat balance is still underexplored, I'm not sure that there is enough of an interest in doing so among the playerbase which hinders potential development.

Stall [B-/C+] Nothing has changed. There were a lot of teams over the course of NDP/FL that cannot break stalll which lead to a slight uptick in use towards the later stages of both tournaments. Stall is viable, but fitting stall counterplay is not difficult and stall teams pretty heavily rely on this not being the case. In NDPL mostly the current or previous sample stall was loaded and in NDFL there has been some experimenting, but it has been quite unimpressive.

Teambuilding & Teams​

Building over the last couple of months has been surprisingly fun. The metagame at large is generally reasonable to handle from a teambuilding perspective without overly constraining variety. Even if I don't think the metagame is quite as offensive as protrayed in NDPL, it at least offense leaning and punishes defensive passivity. As the metagame evolves different threats rise in prominence and others have their spotlight dim. Every player will have their own list, but there are some mons are omnipresent. As a whole the metagame is in a pretty healthy spot even if there are some unhealthy elements.

My post a couple of weeks ago is largely why this is here. Handling Dragon Dance Zygarde is quite difficult outside of offensively pressuring it so it has no room to setup, which is slightly less difficult, but difficult nonetheless. Playing around Glare does give Dragon Dance a lot of oppportunities it probably wouldn't otherwise get. It isn't super hard to fit on teams, but its general frailty will leave noticable gaps to mons such as SD Primal Groudon on a lot of balance and BO structures.

I'll probably vote for this to drop to A- in the upcoming VR slate, but that isn't set in stone. The issue with Ultra Necrozma is that it is so all or nothing. It does not have many ways to get around its counterplay. While this may be an issue for Ultra Necrozma itself, it still poses a massive threat and is something that any good team still has to have a solid gameplan against. It is scariest on Psyspam where the whole overloading counters is quite effective when relying on something like Calm Mind Arceus-Dark or Marshadow which are otherwise decent at worst into HO.

Primal Kyogre is the same as it has always been. If you are not outoffensing it you've got to find a way to defensively contain it. While there are not a ton of great ways to do this, it is managable so long as it isn't wholly ignored in the teambuilder and you're mostly relying on Primal Groudon. Defensive Primal Kyogre does like the rise of Dragon Dance Zygarde a bit as it is one of the few mons in the game that threatens it directly regardless of tera as it can still take a hit and trade if healthy.

Every playstyle except for stall has to figure out how they will approach Marshadow. Most things that outspeed it are pretty vulnerable to Shadow Sneak and BO/Balance teams don't switch often into it well with out Coil Zygarde or Bold Arceus-Fairy which is pretty bad right now. Its a balanced mon, but it is so damn good. It is also pretty splashable on almost every playstyle that isn't stall due to the offensive role compression it provides. It benefits a fair bit from Yveltal pressuring Arceus formes into running Timid and Calm Mind Arceus formes often running little to no physical bulk so Tera Ghost Poltergeist / Spectral Thief does a lick. It is mediocre into stall, but is good into nearly everything else.

Wallbreaking sets with Tera Normal or Z Double Edge / Giga Impact have been trending a bit both on ladder and in tournament recently and nail its main target of Ho-Oh and Zygarde with pretty high efficacy. It is definitely something to be concerned with as handling Ekiller defensively can be tough. The thing with these sets is they usually lack the ability to easily deal with one of Giratina-O or Primal Groudon, more likely the latter. It does create some mindgames, but Ekiller in general suffers from 4MSS in almost every regard. It really wants multiple items, tera types, and probably about 7 moves. It can't fit them all, but unless you're running stall some permutation of Ekiller is probably at least moderately threatening. The ones I've run into don't seem to run much speed, but perhaps that is worthwhile to boost in front of Taunt Arceus formes which usually outspeed it.

It is mostly here because of its results. I don't really feel much has changed as Primal Groudon + Ground immune check would be on nearly every balance and bo even if Zacian-C didn't exist. Handling it defensively isn't strenuous, but its strongest matchup has always been offense which is seeing a lot of use right now. The one trend it doesn't love are HO and offense players experimenting more with Arceus-Ground. If it has the right coverage and clicks the right move it can get past most teams, but that is true of any top offensive threat. It is a mon that is generally going to be managable as long as it is respected in the builder.

Offensive Primal Groudon sets have been on the rise recently and Primal Groudon has made a resurgence on HO squads. One of the things I've remembered is that when using Dragon Dance instead of Coil Zygarde offensive Primal Groudon is actually pretty annoying. The same rings true for offensive Ho-Oh which also has to worry about Heat Crash as +2 OHKOs. Double Dance Primal Groudon is pretty good right now and even Rock Polish or Utility SD can be quite annoying without Zygarde. It is easier to manage it in game with the right tools than run Arceus-Ground on balance and most BOs.

Stall remains mid, but it is important to be able to handle. A team can either break stall or it can't and there isn't really any more it than that. There have been a lot of teams in NDP/FL which entirely ignore the stall matchup.

I did have a few sustained bouts of teambuilding motivation during NDPL and made quite a few teams, these are some that I quite like and would recommend that others give a go. Don't really have much to say about the last two, clicking the sprites links to a paste.

Tera Flying Flame Charge Fire Spin Ho-Oh + Imprison Arceus-Fairy

Team Comments

This team is by far the most fun to use and when it hits it is great. Ho-Oh is EV'd to ko defensive Eternatus with Tera Flying Brave Bird if it is trapped. Getting a burn on it early helps a lot with that as it will allow Ho-Oh to do trap it quite consistently since it outspeeds at +1. This Speed investment also makes Ho-Oh fairly reliable at trapping many Arceus formes if needed.

Arceus-Fairy is the other oddity on this team as it is Taunt Imprison which completely locks down the endgame against Calm Mind Arceus formes. It could be a bit faster, but Primal Groudon's Rock Tomb allows it to outspeed any max Speed Calm Mind Arceus formes. I wasn't sure what the last move should be but settled on Taunt as it is nice to preserve progress. It'd be nice to be max speed, but the team is otherwise quite weak into Meteor Beam Etern which Arceus-Fairy can 1v1 thanks to Imprison and the SpA investment to let it save Judgment PP.

The rest of the team is fairly standard, but I wasn't really sure what last move to put on Yveltal. I settled with Knock Off since opposing Coil Zygardes can be a bit annoying, but Yveltal really does help this team thanks to always being able to fog away Webs while serving a decent Zacian-C/Marshadow/Arceus check in a pinch if needed. Without it this team would be in dire straights against HO. As mentioned Rock Tomb on Primal Groudon does help Arceus-Fairy seal the game against opposing Calm Mind Arceus, but Toxic is alright to give the team a more threatening status against bulky teams. I want to say Zygarde could be Dragon Dance, but offensive Primal Groudon becomes way too threatening.

Reflect Air Balloon Eternatus Balance

Team Comments

I mentioned this Eternatus set elsewhere and this is the team I used it on. Reflect Eternatus enables Primal Kyogre and Ho-Oh to easily switch into the mons they need to thanks to their special bulk and allows Necrozma-DM to find setup opportunities a lot more often. It helps so much against HO and makes that matchup fairly consistent. It is a fun team to mess around with as most things have the special bulk to eventually find a winpath against balance structures with Reflect up.

Double Dark Double Tera Poison Balance

Team Comments

I've been laddering a bit recently and this is the team I've been using the most the last couple of days and it is very fun and easy to play. Against a lot of teams one of Yveltal or Arceus-Dark will often pop off once any potential Fairy-types are taken care of which the rest of the team enable. Double Tera Poison is also great as one will often quite appreciate a Toxic immunity against bulkier teams and it also enables you to come back from fuck ups where one accidently gets poisoned. Beyond that it is fairly standard stuff.

Calyrex-I BO

Team Comments

I felt like building with Calyrex-I and not having to worry about status all that much is always nice. Plus you get a mon which doesn't really have defensive switchins outside of Arceus-Water and Dondozo. It is Tera Fairy because this team really does not like switching into LO Yveltal + Marshadow, but Arceus-Dark fits better than Arceus-Fairy into everything else and Tera Fairy is pretty good defensively. It enables Calyrex-I to blanket check Arceus formes outside of Arceus-Water and lets it 1v1 Marshadow if needed. Calyrex-I also enables Arceus-Dark to more safely use Tera Fairy which is much appreciated against Marshadow and Dragon Dance Zygarde.

Aggressive Alomomola Balance


Specs Lunala + SpD Zygarde BO

Rising to the Call
​

A few months ago a lot of people were voicing the opinion that Primal Groudon isn't S+ anymore and although I disagreed, their arguments made sense. I came close towards the beginning of NDP/FL, but wholeheartedly disagree now. Around the start of these tournaments Primal Groudon was virtually absent on HO and fat balance teams that dropped it were quite popular. Since then Primal Groudon has become signficantly more common on HO, it is a staple on the newer offensive structures we've seen, and it is more flexible than ever. SR 3A and RP 2A/3A are sets I've been enjoying a lot recently. It has resolidified its spot alone atop the metagame for a while for me now. It went from #1 to #1, but does genuinely feel better. Zygarde shifting more to Dragon Dance helps a lot as Primal Groudon's best defensive switchin is a lot rarer while Coil Zygarde being a bit worse due to Calm Mind Arceus formes who Primal Groudon can be good intoare both good developments for Primal Groudon.

Dragon Dance Zygarde is quite silly, but comes with opportunity cost. I've been a bit low on Coil Zygarde for a while, but being the best counter to Dragon Dance sets with Tera Fairy is a big boon for a set that has been struggling a bit recently. Dragon Dance sets are honestly so good that they've even made me entertain the possibility of Zygarde being S+. Don't really have much to say about Zygarde that I have not already, but its just beasting. It is on the survey for a reason.

Offensive sets continue to perform well in part due to a stellar matchup against the currently stellar Calm Mind Arceus formes which are incredibly dangerous late-game and can use defensive sets as setup fodder if they lack Brave Bird. This also extends to a better matchup against Dragon Dance Zygarde as it hits hard enough to prevent it from getting a second Dragon Dance and keeps it managable. I've been liking Tera Grass more and more on it as offensive Ho-Oh doesn't really switch into Zacian-C (248 HP / 16 Def to live +1 Wild Charge) and it helps it 1v1 if the situation arises. I find the damage from Earthquake, even with Tera Ground, underwhelming. Consequently, I've been enjoying Thunder Wave, Flame Charge, and Whirlwind in that slot.

Defensive Ho-Oh is still great even if I find myself using it less often these days as the passivity can be a real issue against threats such as Dragon Dance Zygarde and Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes. I still find Brave Bird hard to fit on defensive sets as the defensive utility of Toxic/Whirlwind are harder to replace than the Brave Bird damage against its targets. I'm not sure if I'm a believer or not in Tera Fairy Ho-Oh.

At this point I feel Smeargle's adaptability outclasses Shuckle's ability to set webs slightly more consistently. At the end of the day the teams that Shuckle more easily gets webs against are often more annoyed by whatever myriad of bullshit Smeargle chucks at them and it often outspeeds a mon or two on these teams anyways so getting Taunted T1 is not the end of the world. It can't have the perfect move for every matchup, but it often feels that Smeargle has more than enough for what is in front it.

It hasn't had the best showing in NDPL, but I do think it is a bit underrated right now. The speed tier combined with the power and Triple Axel for coverage makes Pheromosa surprisingly difficult to handle defensively without Ho-Oh, Coil Zygarde, or Arceus-Fairy. It is really good at creating/maintaining momentum and forcing uncomfortable coinflips in which the Pheromosa user is highly favoured. Yes it does have somewhat common checks, but it forcing these in lets it easily U-Turn into whatever your own counterplay to these checks are. I'm hoping this rises to B- in the upcoming VR slate.

Seeking Greener Pastures
​

Adem will have a post on the Eternatus cycle which I kinda agree with. One of the big selling points of defensive Eternatus sets is the strength of Toxic Spikes against offense teams which it otherwise struggles against. With Eternatus itself reaching close to staple status on HO, this has a big impact on the viability of defensive sets. These sets are a large reason why Eternatus is universally considered the #2/3 mon in the metagame and their drop in consistency has a bigger impact on Eternatus as a whole than the rise of Meteor Beam sets on HO. Eternatus also does not love the rise of Calm Mind Arceus Dark/Fairy which can muscle through every set with the help of Tera and/or Refresh except Tera Dragon Meteor Beam which is mostly limited to HO. The best set imo is still wallbreaker Eternatus which has checks that are still pretty easy to cover and can be muscled through with some minor chip while providing a very good late-game Marshadow check. One set I've been enjoying recently is:

Eternatus @ Air Balloon
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 40 SpD / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Reflect
- Recover
- Dynamax Cannon / Dragon Tail / Flamethrower

Intially this was part of a hidden screens team, but fitting Light Screen anywhere was a downgrade and pretty much everything that came in on Eternatus was a physical attacker and ended up quite liking this set. Funnily enough it PP stalls defensive Overheat Primal Groudon fairly consistently and yeah, having your Zacian-C counterplay doing so under Reflect feels amazing. If running Flamethrower you can put the SpD EVs into SpA and it will always 2HKO Zacian-C. This set also completely invalidates Marshadow which is quite nice. Eternatus is still unquestionably a top mon, but its moved from arguably #2 to a very firm #3 with Ho-Oh not far behind in my eyes. Its splashability is great, but I've grown increasingly tired of how frequently many sets have a lot of matchups where they struggle to do much.

It has at least stopped the downwards trajectory in my eyes. Before NDPL I personally considered Arceus-Ground to be a B+ mon with Dragon Dance being the main set to use with a place on offense. During the course of these tournaments Arceus-Ground has shown that it does fit well on offence and gives Arceus some genuine competition on HO. That keeps it in the A ranks for now on my slate, but outside of that it is kind of dire. Defensive sets require a ton of support due to having a lot of gaps which would typically be filled with another Arceus forme. I'm quite low on Arceus-Water and I'd probably run that a lot more than Arceus-Ground.

Being a Jack of all Trades mon isn't great when Arceus-Ground lacks the tools to consistently check many of the mons expected of an Arceus forme. It has huge 4MSS where yes Ground is a great offensive typing, but we have a lot of really good ground immunes that Arceus-Ground can't handle long term without a lot of support or a Taunt Toxic set on fatter balances. The inability to run mono Judgment without a lot of support hurts as well. For an Arceus forme to be splashable it needs to be self sufficient and Arceus-Ground just isn't that defensively. It is offensively, but has competition from Calm Mind Arceus formes on BO and Arceus on HO. Dragon Dance Arceus is generally great into offense so it definitely appreciates a more offensive metagame. However, if this trend doesn't hold up I think it is pretty likely Arceus-Ground will drop to the B ranks at least on my personal VR.

Not every A- mon is going to be the most common, but the offensive structures Mega Salamence fits best on are both good and popular at the moment yet it is rarely seen. Some mons will always have much higher viability than use such as Gothitelle and Ferrothorn, but Mega Salamence isn't among them. I've tried to use it a fair bit recently and the teams did well, but Mega Salamence rarely did much of note. I don't think it is bad, but it also isn't a mon that is at the forefront of my mind when building.

There are also some trends it doesn't love such as the rise of offensive Eternatus sets, Calm Mind Arceus-Dark/Fairy, and Dragon Dance Zygarde. Mega Salamence obviously doesn't like Coil Zygarde, but it doesn't deal well with Dragon Dance Zygarde which is replacing other mons rather than Coil Zygarde sets solely adding to the list of headaches. For the first time in a long time, Mega Salamence should seriously consider running a Jolly nature as Calm Mind Arceus formes often run 341 or 372 Speed. I still get goobed by Mega Salamence a lot (one day I'll guess whether or not it has Facade correctly), but it is on the outside looking in at the core metagame. It is weird because Mega Salamence has B+ vibes, but I use every mon in B+ way more often than Mega Salamence. I think Mega Salamence gets a lot better if the metagame slows down a bit as it can do a lot with the breathing room it doesn't have currently.

I thought about Arceus-Water a lot while writing the Arceus-Ground section. Throughout the history of this tier I've always viewed Arceus-Water as a generally worse Arceus-Ground, but good into a few different things. Having Judgment do nothing to Primal Groudon isn't great, but also isn't the end of the world. It is the easiest mon in the metagame to chip and that is much better than having Judgment blanked by Flying-types. Overall though I'm a bit of a hater due to how much every Arceus-Water has to be signficantly built around while not having the dominance/consistency that should accompany sinking a huge amount of resources to support it. I like Calm Mind sets more than defensive sets, but it is just kind of a meh overall mon. It is better than those Arceus formes littering the C ranks, but those are more fun to use and honestly more consistent.

Shuckle itself hasn't really changed, but Smeargle differentiating itself to such a degree is bad for it. Shuckle is still a servicable Sticky Web setter and will get up webs at the beginning of the game slightly more consistently against balance teams, but the Taunt users that prevent Smeargle from setting up Webs are quite hesitant to take a Nuzzle and Smeargle outpaces the congested defensive Speed tier of the low 200s so often can find a second chance to setup webs against these teams anyways. Encore is nice against Dragon Dance Zygarde, but not as nice as Perish Song in addition to other utility such as removing hazards, inducing sleep, ect. It is also worse against opposing HO leads. It isn't that Shuckle is bad, but I'm struggling to see many reasons to use it over Smeargle currently.

Survey​

Initially this was planned to just be a post about the metagame, trends, and some mons, but I've been busy enough with work and other stuff that they survey came out so I'll include my thoughts about each question below. As a whole I don't anything 100% needs to go outside of Shadow Tag. I answered high on Last Respects because I'd be quite happy to see it go even if it isn't the biggest issue either on ladder or in tournament. It is an uncompetitive move that is only held back by what it is attatched to.

Questions

Enjoyability [8] There are some things I'm not a fan of in the metagame, but as a whole the metagame is about as enjoyable as it has ever been. You can run whatever and see success while maintaining a reasonable (for ubers) degree of flexibility.

Competitiveness [7] I can't remember what I put last survey, but it would have been somewhere around here. The metagame is never really going to be fully compeititve due to the amount of required moves without 100% accuracy. There are a couple of other things that I'm not the biggest fan of, but generally the better player and builder will win.

[2] I've talked enough about Zygarde in this post and my previous one a few weeks ago. DD Zygarde is probably NDAG worthy, but does come with pretty harsh drawbacks defensively and offensively. That at least made me give Zygarde a 2 which I never thought I'd do. Zygarde does a lot to hold the metagame together and make it playable so a Zygarde suspect is far and away the lowest priority of anything listed on the survey imo. The time to hold a Zygarde suspect would be after a second tera suspect fails.

[5] I'm most open to banning Zacian-C out of all of the options that have a realistic chance at receiving tiering action. I've found myself becoming a bit more annoyed with Zacian-C's presence in the metagame due to finally realizing how many moves used by defensive checks don't have 100% accuracy and how that will inevitably end up in Zacian-C lucking out games it really shouldn't. I'm still not confident I'd vote to ban it since it does have a lot of issues and is something more of a building annoyance than an in game one. There are a lot of good defensive checks to Zacian-C, but the main issue stems from a lot of these being good checks if Zacian-C doesn't have a specific move or checking it by very thin margins.

[4] My thoughts have not changed much on tera since the last survey. I don't find it broken although I still really do not like teraing to a type immunity. I'm fine with a tera test and my line remains Zygarde. I'd be fine with a tera test though highly doubt I'd vote to ban it.

[8] This was about as high as I can justify. Last Respects is a 10/10 banworthy move, but Basculegion being the best mon its attatched to lowers the score slightly. Ultimately, Last Respects is just barely interactive cheese that I'd be happy to yeet from the metagame even if it isn't great. It is good enough and adds nothing to the tier while being not a horrible matchup fish. It also isn't hard to get chip on the targets you need.

[10] No use doesn't mean it isn't just as broken. It is capable of trapping almost any defensive mon outside of Taunt Arceus formes if it wants. This leads to an uncomfortable gamble in the teambuilder where running many teams have to juxtapose instantly losing if it shows up or accounting for a mon that isn't common. This dynamic isn't really comparable to x mon which goobs a mon as most often even those have to work somewhat to position itself.

Additional responses

Ultra Necrozma isn't banworthy, but I'm growing increasingly tired of its presence in the tier. Yes it has rock solid counterplay, but it doesn't have a lot of soft counterplay unlike other mons. Either you handle Ultra Necrozma well or it will probably find a turn and blow up your team. Unfortunately for Ultra Necrozma, this forces that solid counterplay on most teams which makes it inconsistent. Its never going to get banned, but I do think the tier would be better without it.

This is here to represent Moody which is only seen on Smeargle. It feels like it gets the +2 Speed boost everytime v me and getting an extra turn to do stuff makes it signficantly more annoying to dispose and make a solid gameplan.

Adem - Bredrin proclaimed to be retiring. Lets force the issue

 

[bumboclaat]

Survey Says
​

Although this is a double post, I'd like to discuss some more general stuff before moving onto discussing Zygarde and Tera speficically. I'll be focusing on the qualified response, although it should be noted that a couple of users whom I'd consider qualified are not in this survey even if I hold their opinions in quite high regard. Overall, I'm quite happy with the results of the survey. The playerbase as a whole generally likes the metagame and finds it competitive, in particular compared to other SV metagames, with scores of 7.74 & 7.26 respectively. Despite some parts of the metagame being considered a bit much, it is great news that the playerbase considers the tier as a whole to be in a good place.

This is great as should we proceed with a suspect and should it survive we are not forced to continue with a metagame that the playerbase finds unenjoyable or uncompetitive. Personally, suspecting Zygarde or Tera would be the lowest priority of any potential tiering action. Unsurprisingly, I'd prefer a Zacian-C test with a tera test following that. We are bound by some extent by survey scores, but I believe that they are low enough across the board to jusitfy no tiering action. We require a 2/3 supermajority to ban anything and the survey scores don't exactly inspire confidence that anything would rise above this threshold.

In the discussion following the previous survey I think I said the trigger point for a suspect should be somewhere around 6-7. In this survey tera was the only thing to breach this, and only amongst the general responses. In an ideal world my path for potential tiering action would start with a Shadow Tag suspect. Its lack of results in NDP/FL is a valid reason to not move forward with this, but at the same time qualified voters did view it as more of an issue than Zygarde. The main reason, my disdain for Shadow Tag aside, that I advocate a Shadow Tag test is that there is not likely to be much contention post test and it would be a one and done, unlikely to be revisted and a Shadow Tag ban would not have a huge impact on the core metagame. Shadow Tag alongside the mons it commonly enables are relatively uncommon and I think it would be a relatively self contained ban with little fallout.

In my dream world any tiering action would look be:

1. Suspect Shadow Tag (reasons listed above)
2. Suspect Zacian-C
3. If this fails suspect tera
4. Suspect Zygarde-C
5. Suspect Last Respects at some point (timing doesn't matter)

Two Peas in a Pod​

It is impossible to separate Zygarde and Tera as tera is the primary reason Zygarde is even on this list in the first place. To say it benefits from tera would be an understatement. Zygarde however, benefits from tera in both its direct interactions with the mechanic in addition to tera's impact on the metagame as a whole. Zygarde is a mon with two clear, discernable weaknesses: Ice-type attacks and strong special attackers.

Tera is obviously an immense boon to Zygarde defensively as it enables Coil Zygarde to flip its troublesome matchups defensively while maintaining a good defensive profile. This has an impact well beyond Ice Beam becoming a rarity on Arceus formes and the metagame in general. Tera on Coil Zygarde is something I find to be extremely healthy for the metagame in general. This is due to extending the pools of mons that Zygarde is able to check without significantly impacting its own counterplay. For example, Zygarde using tera to Glare Eternatus is a dynamic I quite like and it isn't lopsided as Tera Dragon Meteor Beam Eternatus sets that have risen to near staple status on HO OHKO Tera Water Zygarde.

Making Ice Beam near unviable on most Arceus sets is something I quite like and frees up room for utility options or additional coverage. One of these options, Taunt, would still likely be a staple on most Arceus formes as it enables them to shut down Coil Zygarde while providing additional utility. As an aside, Tera Fairy making a slight resurgence is pretty cool and something I quite like as it is a general downgrade with signficant upsides such as the ability to completely invalidate Dragon Dance Zygarde.

Coil Zygarde is a cornerstone of the metagame and the tier would suffer immensely in its absense. On the other hand, Dragon Dance Zygarde is probably a bit much. I don't really feel like spending the next little while rehashing stuff I've already written so scroll up to see my more complete thoughts on this set as they have not changed much. Teams have adapted to it a bit, but it remains incredibly oppressive to bulkier structures and gets way too much value off of a free turn.

What pushes Dragon Dance Zygarde over the edge for me is how punishing it is when incorrectly assuming that the set is Coil Zygarde given how little defensive counterplay they share. For example, Primal Groudon should switch out when Zygarde comes onto the field, but if it is Dragon Dance Zygarde the optimal play is often to hope Precipice Blades does not miss and to sacrifice Primal Groudon to prevent Zygarde from accruing from getting the ball rolling.

Furthermore, the only reason Zygarde is being discussed is due to Tera. Tera is the sole reason Zygarde even has a valid reason to appear on the survey. Without it Dragon Dance sets would likely be quite fishy as it often lacks the damage output to consistently wallbreak and/or sweep. For example, it fails to OHKO Marshadow and 2HKO Arceus formes at +1. Additionally, it enables Zygarde to OHKO Zacian-C and Eternatus in a pinch, even without a boost.

There are some things that Dragon Dance Zygarde brings to the metagame I like, such as being a huge punish to do nothing fat balances, but overall Dragon Dance Zygarde at a minimum has a lot of unhealthy characteristics. The thing is, Dragon Dance Zygarde is wholly reliant on tera to be a serious threat so if we proceed with a suspect it should be on tera, not Zygarde.

Hats​

Last suspect I voted to ban tera and was shocked that it survived. Nowadays though? Frankly I think it is at worst managable. The aspect of tera I'm not a fan of is primarily concern type immunities. This isn't a blanket statement as I don't have issues with something like wallbreaker Eternatus which is often telegraphed and predicatable. My issue is more with mons such as Arceus, Ditto, and Deoxys-A which commonly escape revenge killing attempts due to tera. The mindgames are something I really don't enjoy, especially from Deoxys-A which is escaping near certain death. Most teams and archetypes are not overflowing with checks which often means getting this glorified coinflip wrong often leads to disaster shortly after.

If Zygarde and Zacian-C are banworthy, it is solely due to tera in the former and mostly due to tera for the latter. As a whole, I've come around to tera as a mechanic and believe it generally does make the metagame better due to the offensive and defensive role compression it allows. However, I'm not sure what I would actually vote should we decide to suspect it. I'm also somewhat skeptical that it would even be banned as 5.6 when you need 2/3 players to vote to ban something and some voters will never vote to ban anything, leaving slim margins for potential action.

I do get where the tera haters arguments come from, and most of these are valid points. Ultimately, one's view on tera probably stems from how one percieves a metagame 'should' be. My recent experience with SSNDUbers has lead me to prefer a tera metagame than one without it, although that is based on speculation. If we suspect anything (out of our two options) it should be tera, although I'm fine with not suspecting either tera or Zygarde. I almost certainly would not vote to ban Zygarde, but might for tera as I am still undecided despite leaning to keep it.

 

[Bobsican]

Commenting on the random comments that were given on the survey:

: Yveltal has been brought up multiple times as a concern, and frankly it's not too surprising, Yveltal's mixed offenses and utility results in every team requiring a mixed wall to handle it, in particular also wanting to be faster to avoid being immediately Taunted or risking Dark Pulse flinches, or in other words besides Primal Groudon, at least one of Eternatus, an Arceus forme, or Primal Kyogre. Ho-Oh would also count if it didn't like coming into Knock Off as then it's forced to Terastallize to remain as a reliable Defogger.

: Ultra Necrozma has been a concern for a while and remains this way, it sure is interesting to find out I'm not the only one that thinks the same of this Pokemon being simply unhealthy, with my prior post in this thread going into more details, but at the same time I don't feel it is too overbearing yet unless Teras get banned, as then the counterplay for it becomes limited to say the least.

Besides some joke unban posts like for M-Rayquaza, there was also a voter seriously pushing for freeing Koraidon and Miraidon, and to that I'll just reply the whole controversy the bikes have done in ND Ubers, with Koraidon simply having no legitimate checks beyond Tera mind games, and Miraidon just brute forcing past the whole metagame with no meme checks that do little else like Dachsbun for Koraidon, or Clodsire for Xerneas to even defend it at all, especially with the help of a Z-Crystal allowing it to just OHKO anything neutrally effective that doesn't resist whichever move it uses at +1 bar Chansey and Blissey, which are pivoting bait to then let any physical attacker in the metagame gain free momentum, and thus overall playing against Miraidon demanded constant coin flips with next to no punishment for the Miraidon user if failed, while one or two for the opponent often take the whole matchup and enable a sweep. If what that user wanted is just a glorified National Dex AG, then refer to this as well, NDAG is basically the Politics thread equivalent of a metagame by attracting a lot of controversy for free as the userbase can't handle it well, and while it's sad that we can't have nice things, trying to reshape a tier to specifically NDAG just comes off as very egocentrical and short-sighted.

Tera Blast was also brought up once, and while it's a common thing to bring up regarding whether it's the root for Teras being broken, the truth is that for this tier only Zacian-C uses that move, so at best it's an ineffective way of tackling the problem, and at worst it's pushing general tiering policy as by then it'd be easier to argue for a Zacian-C ban as it's the only broken user of a move, the same way G-Darmanitan isn't freed into NDOU by banning Gorilla Tactics, or how Tatsugiri is banned in DOU over banning Commander.

Moody was also brought up, and while it's really only used by Smeargle as Baton Pass is banned and more win-oriented uses of it are limited in a tier where phazing and offense are common (thus limiting free turns for this sort of strategies), one can argue that getting +2 Speed on your suicide lead so that now it can hinder even more foes with stuff like Spore, Nuzzle, or Mortal Spin can be annoying, but Smeargle's lacking stats and inability to run offensive sets (Smeargle's +6 Atk Extreme Speed has about the same damage output as +2 Extreme Killer Arceus, for instance) make the use of the ability too tame to be really worth suspect testing compared to other stuff IMO.