Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Kingambit: Supreme Overlord is dumb, saying its necessary for the meta is pure cope and a sign that the meta is in a really bad state. And it doesn't do a great job at "holding the meta together" because most Pokemon resist and without a Swords Dance boost its not OHKOing things it shouldn't. If you need speed control, use actual speed control. If you need priority, Dragonite, Cinderace, and others are significantly healthier options. Also Tera on this thing is infinitely dumber than Volcarona and Regieleki.
How is the dictator of OU a better Tera abuser than Volc was? I'd wager Volcarona was either a hair or two better, or basically the same with how stupid they can be to answer with a Tera in the backpocket. And, Kingambit being a cope answer to keep the meta "stable" needs an elaboration, at least from my PoV. I've spent my entire time in SV OU being told "No, this thing is actually good", yet as of the last week when Daddy Freeze Dry came back, suddenly people are like "Yeah, maybe Kingambit isn't as cool as we thought". So what gives? Is Kingambit now a problem? Are people finally escaping the Pokemon stockholm syndrome and realizing it isn't as needed as we thought? Was I spread "Smoganda" and I was too stupid to see the other side? Or is Kingambit still needed?
Literally every person i've asked this question gave me a different answer, so i'm genuinely unsure
Zamazenta: Finishing on a Pokemon I think is really healthy right now, Zamazenta is kind of the perfect example of flexible and incredibly good but not overbearing. 4a Boots sets are a joy to use despite the meta's state and IDBP, while strong, isn't particularly hard to handle if you at least acknowledge it in the builder. Having Kingambit and (hopefully) Kyurem gone will even allow more IDBP counters to exist like Pecharunt and Sinistcha, who are both decent but have issues into the former while the latter punishes them for no reason really.
Hard agree. To me, Zama isn't the issue, it's the things around it that make it look like one. It would be so much easier to build around if I didn't have to build around other polarizing threats
 
Not how Pressure works, it only affects moves that have Corviknight included in its targetting (Facade, EQ, Trick Room etc, but not Swords Dance or Protect)

==

Anyway, time to add my thoughts on the meta, though honestly I didn't play much for a good few reasons, partially due to a lack of time and partially because man there are some dumb mons that make the tier significantly less enjoyable to play.

Kyurem.. yeah moving on, this is done to death

Gliscor: I'll be honest, this mon isn't the issue, Gholdengo is. Gliscor's main issue is that it can easily stack Spikes and actually has the longevity that other Spikes users don't have while being able to pressure Great Tusk, but that's kind of it? Don't get me wrong, it's incredibly strong, but Gholdengo has felt like the culprit for a long time, going back even to before Gliscor's reintroduction back in HOME and even pre-HOME. Good as Gold is genuinely such a strain on the builder, and it heavily limits what builds are acceptable. Once you're actually able to reliably remove hazards, Gliscor is actually reasonable to handle. EDIT: i forgot about sd facade somehow but thats not a set i struggled with so i cant comment on it

Gholdengo: I already mentioned why Gholdengo is dumb, but I do think Gholdengo is the most problematic Pokemon right now. Good as Gold is the main reason, but Gholdengo can also just pick and choose what it loses to to an unhealthy degree, e.g. Focus Blast for Kingambit/Hamu/RMoon or the million different Tera types and items it can run to get free setup on would-be checks or counters like Lando-T, Gliscor, and especially Ting-lu. I do get that people find it helpful since it's by far the best answer to IDBP Zamazenta, but the strain it causes alongside the fact that there are other excellent zama counters that are healthy is really bad for the meta IMO

Kingambit: Supreme Overlord is dumb, saying its necessary for the meta is pure cope and a sign that the meta is in a really bad state. And it doesn't do a great job at "holding the meta together" because most Pokemon resist and without a Swords Dance boost its not OHKOing things it shouldn't. If you need speed control, use actual speed control. If you need priority, Dragonite, Cinderace, and others are significantly healthier options. Also Tera on this thing is infinitely dumber than Volcarona and Regieleki.

Roaring Moon: This thing is really dumb, its only going to be seen on HO but it so easily wins games and has multiple incredible Tera types. Forcing it to Tera does mean that technically Kingambit might revenge KO but we need to stop using that as an excuse when we all know Kingambit is a problem itself anyway.

Tera: Said it since day one, Tera isn't broken and instead is a great defensive tool. Same type Tera comes with a major cost, and most Pokemon that use defensive Tera minus a few exceptions (cough cough kingambit) are really healthy. I can see why people may dislike it but it actually gets harder without Tera to answer stuff, and this comes from actual experience. Tera Blast, though...

Tera Blast: is not so healthy. It's sometimes cool, often not, and it really just is a cheese tool at the end of the day that only makes Pokemon like Volcarona, Regieleki, and Iron Moth considerably less balanced, especially considering how hard it can be to call the right Tera type on the former and latter.

Zamazenta: Finishing on a Pokemon I think is really healthy right now, Zamazenta is kind of the perfect example of flexible and incredibly good but not overbearing. 4a Boots sets are a joy to use despite the meta's state and IDBP, while strong, isn't particularly hard to handle if you at least acknowledge it in the builder. Having Kingambit and (hopefully) Kyurem gone will even allow more IDBP counters to exist like Pecharunt and Sinistcha, who are both decent but have issues into the former while the latter punishes them for no reason really.


Current meta feelings: 5/10 competitiveness 4/10 enjoyability, the meta has a lot of potential to improve as long as people are more proactive with bans but as it stands the meta is just kinda poor. Do hope to see it be in a good position before next WCoP, though, since 2023 was really fun and has shown Gen 9 can be good.

The problem is, even without Ghold, almost every spinner will hate facing Gliscor. Tusk dislikes being Toxic, Treads dislikes Earthquake and more. Corviknight sounds like an ideal mon for Defog (without Gholdengo around), but it just forces Gliscor into a game state that... has little interaction. Gliscor clicks Spikes and Corv clicks Defog. Both sides cannot force any progress at all, and it just boils down to wasting PP. That's not at all interactive.

Gholdengo is such an amazing glue mon, I wouldn't want it to go anywhere. It is one of the reasons why Iron Valiant isn't bagging the tier. It is one of the reasons why people still think Zamazenta is "fair", and it's one of the reasons why offense doesn't get way out of hand. I don't find Gholdengo as much of a strain in teambuilding as... say, even Zamazenta. Most of the times it's either bulky Hex or offensive Nasty Plot. Both of which aren't that dominating and problematic in the beginning.

Kingambit doesn't "OHKO things it shouldn't" most of the time, even with +2. Moltres and the "good old healthy" Zamazenta can always bag it. It's also considerably slow so walls like Corviknight can still outspeed it and threaten with Body Press. Statusing it is always great, whether it is Paralysis or Burn. Also with the rise of some UU mons like tera fairy Sinischa, Okidogi and Keldeo, Kingambit has become much easier to deal with than any of those fast hard hitting mons in the tier currently.

The rest, I agree. Except for Zamanzenta part. I always find it funny how people who find Kingambit problematic will find Zamazenta fair, while I have the exact opposite problem.
 
How is the dictator of OU a better Tera abuser than Volc was? I'd wager Volcarona was either a hair or two better, or basically the same with how stupid they can be to answer with a Tera in the backpocket. And, Kingambit being a cope answer to keep the meta "stable" needs an elaboration, at least from my PoV. I've spent my entire time in SV OU being told "No, this thing is actually good", yet as of the last week when Daddy Freeze Dry came back, suddenly people are like "Yeah, maybe Kingambit isn't as cool as we thought". So what gives? Is Kingambit now a problem? Are people finally escaping the Pokemon stockholm syndrome and realizing it isn't as needed as we thought? Was I spread "Smoganda" and I was too stupid to see the other side? Or is Kingambit still needed?
Literally every person i've asked this question gave me a different answer, so i'm genuinely unsure
For me it really comes down to the fact that Kingambit can just win the game in 1 turn with the right tera, and it's viable with about 8 of them so guessing even one Tera type incorrectly costs the game (e.g. you expect Tera Flying so try to use Will-O-Wisp and then it clicks Tera Fire or its Tera Dark Black Glasses and now your breaker drops from nearly full or you click Close Combat on IVal and its Tera Fairy or Flying etc etc). Volcarona takes more time, though, since it needs its QD boosts to win the game and is more Tera-dependent in a lot of matchups. I'd not say either are healthy, but its really just comparing Tera behemoths to make it easier to get my point across.

As for Kingambit being a "cope answer", that's mostly because it just is, and its awkward to explain. I call it a "cope answer" because many people try to cope with the dumbest setup sweepers by using Kingambit's Supreme Overlord and some kind of combination of its Tera type, the opponent's current type, and how many stacks it has, but this has issues. Kingambit only really becomes an answer to many setup Pokemon when it either A) has the right Tera type, B) is facing a Pokemon that's slightly chipped, not particularly bulky, and doesn't resist, or C) is at 4/5 KOes, at which point it's not really an answer as much as a reverse sweeper but we all know why that becomes an issue. The first and second are way too specific to be consistent for 90% of cases, and the third is at the point where Kingambit is already being problematic because a free Choice Band boost is unsurprisingly very broken. As for the Pokemon it answers, most of them are just handled by the rest of the tier just fine? I will say now that I have been for Kingambit's ban since December 2022, so I do have some grudges towards it but it's never been healthy and its whole reason for staying currently is that it helps cope with the rest of the tier. There are healthier priority revengers too, its just because Kingambit is broken that people gravitate towards it, even if its incorrectly.
The problem is, even without Ghold, almost every spinner will hate facing Gliscor. Tusk dislikes being Toxic, Treads dislikes Earthquake and more. Corviknight sounds like an ideal mon for Defog (without Gholdengo around), but it just forces Gliscor into a game state that... has little interaction. Gliscor clicks Spikes and Corv clicks Defog. Both sides cannot force any progress at all, and it just boils down to wasting PP. That's not at all interactive.

Gholdengo is such an amazing glue mon, I wouldn't want it to go anywhere. It is one of the reasons why Iron Valiant isn't bagging the tier. It is one of the reasons why people still think Zamazenta is "fair", and it's one of the reasons why offense doesn't get way out of hand. I don't find Gholdengo as much of a strain in teambuilding as... say, even Zamazenta. Most of the times it's either bulky Hex or offensive Nasty Plot. Both of which aren't that dominating and problematic in the beginning.

Kingambit doesn't "OHKO things it shouldn't" most of the time, even with +2. Moltres and the "good old healthy" Zamazenta can always bag it. It's also considerably slow so walls like Corviknight can still outspeed it and threaten with Body Press. Statusing it is always great, whether it is Paralysis or Burn. Also with the rise of some UU mons like tera fairy Sinischa, Okidogi and Keldeo, Kingambit has become much easier to deal with than any of those fast hard hitting mons in the tier currently.

The rest, I agree. Except for Zamanzenta part. I always find it funny how people who find Kingambit problematic will find Zamazenta fair, while I have the exact opposite problem.
Honestly fair point on Gliscor, I personally find it healthy because other Spikes users have similar ways of pressuring (Skarmory has helmet + whirlwind + Roost, Ting-Lu has Ruination, and the Ogerpon formes alongside the 3 people using Spikes Garchomp can use offensive pressure from those setters), but I can see why it's disliked.

I don't disagree that Gholdengo is a good glue mon, I've used it a bunch myself and do enjoy using it, but Good as Gold is really really toxic in every metagame and SVOU is no different. Specs and certain NP sets are also just really dumb, since you just have to pray you can answer them which won't be the case often thanks to its stupidly good offensive movepool.

Zamazenta I can understand, but it is purely because of Kingambit and Gholdengo making the good defensive Ghost-types outside of Gholdengo nearly fully obsolete. If and when Kingambit goes (please be in the next month or so) then we should start to see them being used, which will significantly reduce the burden of trying to answer Zamazenta. I think another thing is that Zamazenta is just naturally good into offense, especially IDBP, and since offense is the standard right now Zamazenta just manages to do stuff as a result.
 
Ummm... Did you factor in Pressure? Corv can get 48 PP with just the 3 moves of Iron Defense, Body Press, and Roost. A Gliscor with Swords Dance, Facade, Earthquake, and Protect has a total of 96 PP, but it should essentially divided by 2 here because of Pressure. That would make it more like 48. Corv has in 3 moves what Gliscor can have in 4, at least head to head.

Now, there is some variance to this. U-turn can ruin your ID set up and make stalling out more difficult. Gliscor can run both Facade and Knock Off, which would give it an extra 16 PP for a total of 112. But divided by 2, that is still essentially like 56 PP against Pressure Corv. And it will likely have a 4th move with more than 8 PP. SD Gliscor should Struggle first.

If this isn't enough, that also assumes Gliscor isn't Tera Normal.
You don’t even have to click moves into Corv. You can just switch back and forth between a Ghost/Gking and Gliscor and drain its pp. Gliscor also has SD which doesn’t get affected by Pressure and has 32 pp, Knock and Facade are both 32 pp, Protect is 16 pp and I think is affected by Pressure, but that’s still 8 pp which you can use intelligently to waste their Body Press pp.
 
You don’t even have to click moves into Corv. You can just switch back and forth between a Ghost/Gking and Gliscor and drain its pp. Gliscor also has SD which doesn’t get affected by Pressure and has 32 pp, Knock and Facade are both 32 pp, Protect is 16 pp and I think is affected by Pressure, but that’s still 8 pp which you can use intelligently to waste their Body Press pp.
Actually, i'm pretty sure Protect isn't affected by Pressure. If so, it only adds to the PP stalling debate
 
For me it really comes down to the fact that Kingambit can just win the game in 1 turn with the right tera, and it's viable with about 8 of them so guessing even one Tera type incorrectly costs the game (e.g. you expect Tera Flying so try to use Will-O-Wisp and then it clicks Tera Fire or its Tera Dark Black Glasses and now your breaker drops from nearly full or you click Close Combat on IVal and its Tera Fairy or Flying etc etc). Volcarona takes more time, though, since it needs its QD boosts to win the game and is more Tera-dependent in a lot of matchups. I'd not say either are healthy, but its really just comparing Tera behemoths to make it easier to get my point across.

As for Kingambit being a "cope answer", that's mostly because it just is, and its awkward to explain. I call it a "cope answer" because many people try to cope with the dumbest setup sweepers by using Kingambit's Supreme Overlord and some kind of combination of its Tera type, the opponent's current type, and how many stacks it has, but this has issues. Kingambit only really becomes an answer to many setup Pokemon when it either A) has the right Tera type, B) is facing a Pokemon that's slightly chipped, not particularly bulky, and doesn't resist, or C) is at 4/5 KOes, at which point it's not really an answer as much as a reverse sweeper but we all know why that becomes an issue. The first and second are way too specific to be consistent for 90% of cases, and the third is at the point where Kingambit is already being problematic because a free Choice Band boost is unsurprisingly very broken. As for the Pokemon it answers, most of them are just handled by the rest of the tier just fine? I will say now that I have been for Kingambit's ban since December 2022, so I do have some grudges towards it but it's never been healthy and its whole reason for staying currently is that it helps cope with the rest of the tier. There are healthier priority revengers too, its just because Kingambit is broken that people gravitate towards it, even if its incorrectly.

Honestly fair point on Gliscor, I personally find it healthy because other Spikes users have similar ways of pressuring (Skarmory has helmet + whirlwind + Roost, Ting-Lu has Ruination, and the Ogerpon formes alongside the 3 people using Spikes Garchomp can use offensive pressure from those setters), but I can see why it's disliked.

I don't disagree that Gholdengo is a good glue mon, I've used it a bunch myself and do enjoy using it, but Good as Gold is really really toxic in every metagame and SVOU is no different. Specs and certain NP sets are also just really dumb, since you just have to pray you can answer them which won't be the case often thanks to its stupidly good offensive movepool.

Zamazenta I can understand, but it is purely because of Kingambit and Gholdengo making the good defensive Ghost-types outside of Gholdengo nearly fully obsolete. If and when Kingambit goes (please be in the next month or so) then we should start to see them being used, which will significantly reduce the burden of trying to answer Zamazenta. I think another thing is that Zamazenta is just naturally good into offense, especially IDBP, and since offense is the standard right now Zamazenta just manages to do stuff as a result.

I encouter problems against Zamazenta a lot of times, even with a more bulky, conventional team. I have to tip toe around Zamn to see if it's Stone Edge. Gliscor doesn't always answer it, especially if it has Tera Steel or sub. Bold Ghold is the only choice I have found so far to be actually good, which is a lot ot say about the situation. Sinischa or Pecharunt may be good, but my issue with them is that they don't put up as much pressure as I would expect. Pecharunt's STAB combination is honestly not great into the metagame, and Sinischa has to set up Calm Mind in order to do something, which can be exploited by legions of faster Encore mons in OU like Tink, Waterpon or Ival. Gholdengo feels like the only option that can check many boxes at once.

Zamazenta is actually equipped to deal with several different scenarios at once, and the problem I find with it is finding out what it has. I can't just switch into Moltres if it has Stone Edge. I can't just set up my own IronPress if it has Roar. I find it hard to have a common check that can answer everything it can throw all at once, except Bold Ghold.

Gambit is kind of different. Yeah, it can use tera Fire or Lum Berry to escape Burn, but I feel dealing with a slow mon with the only way to outspeed is Sucker Punch feels much easier than dealing with a fast mon that can do a lot of things. Maybe it's just the "me" problem in laddering.

Not to say Good as Ghold isn't broken (in fact, I wholeheartedly agree that the ability is so dumb), but for now, I don't think Ghold should be a top priority for suspect test, especially when we have so many fast hard hitters around.
 
I hate Zama. My adaptation has been running Basculegion-F as my swift swimmer of which I’ve become a huge Stan.

Bascu-F is cool because Ghost typing being immune to Body Press, Rapid Spin, Pop Bomb, and Extremespeed is cool, and clicking Specs Shadow Ball is usually a productive idea.

Speaking of swift swimmers, I have long been perplexed by people’s commitment to Barraskewda. It has terrible can’t-tank-a-single-priority-move bulk, and is outdamaged by both Basculegion-M and Floatzel (yes, Wave Crash makes a big difference….)

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 351-414 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 352-415 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I’m still going to run Bascu-F until something is done about Uber Fenris Wolf. But for physical swimmers, what gives?
 
Not how Pressure works, it only affects moves that have Corviknight included in its targetting (Facade, EQ, Trick Room etc, but not Swords Dance or Protect)
Ok. It doesn't work on Protect. I just tested it. I can't believe I have had that wrong all these years. This is why I don't play stall. I had success taking away moves like EQ or Toxic from various Gliscor sets. All my PP stalling tests never made it to the state of struggle, though, so I was just assuming it was working on Protect as well. I did manage to get rid of Protect a couple times, but I wasn't counting. Thank you for correcting me.
You don’t even have to click moves into Corv. You can just switch back and forth between a Ghost/Gking and Gliscor and drain its pp. Gliscor also has SD which doesn’t get affected by Pressure and has 32 pp, Knock and Facade are both 32 pp, Protect is 16 pp and I think is affected by Pressure, but that’s still 8 pp which you can use intelligently to waste their Body Press pp.
I mean, I screwed up on the non-targeted stuff like SD and Protect. But it still applies to attacking moves and Toxic. So you can still takeaway those things with Corv against various Gliscor sets. Toxic and the attacking moves should still be halved. An SD Gliscor without one of its two attacks becomes way easier to wall.

As far as Gliscor never attacking goes, that's just kinda silly. If it never attacks, you never have to Roost. Even if you SD 32 times in a row without switching, that still isn't all of Corv's PP. Gliscor would be forced to Protect or Attack eventually. Even if you don't cut Protect PP with Pressure, a BP Corv would have more PP than that. A Gliscor without Protect can be more easily forced out.

Switching around is also a strange thing to talk about in this sense considering the other player can do it, too. As long as Gliscor doesn't have up multiple SDs, it isn't gonna shred through most teams. So forcing it out essentially did your job. You can also predict a switch and BP or switch yourself if your opponent is getting that frisky with it.
Actually, i'm pretty sure Protect isn't affected by Pressure. If so, it only adds to the PP stalling debate
It doesn't. But it does effect Toxic since it is targeted. This does impact stalling out the Protect PP, but generally you would want to force Protect scouting in the first place for that to happen.
 
I’m still going to run Bascu-F until something is done about Uber Fenris Wolf. But for physical swimmers, what gives?

Barraskewda's much higher speed tier means it isn't outsped by things such as Choice Scarf Darkrai and Meowscarada and +1 Roaring Moon, which is pretty damn important since something like Roaring Moon can threaten to sweep your entire team.

Zamazenta is also never leaving this tier since it is fair and balanced, so you'll be stuck with it for the rest of the generation.
 
Barraskewda's much higher speed tier means it isn't outsped by things such as Choice Scarf Darkrai and Meowscarada and +1 Roaring Moon, which is pretty damn important since something like Roaring Moon can threaten to sweep your entire team.
This is incorrect, +1 Roaring Moon is outsped by the Basculegions. Floatzel outspeeds all 3 with Adamant. As per the calcs Roaring Moon gets blown up by Wave Crash with no thinking cap needed.

I haven’t run into Scarf Darkrai or Meow but the latter is inconsequential because any rain that doesn’t have a Rillaboom answer is unviable, and would have the same response for Choice Scarf Meow.
 
Curious... we always talk about "suspect this suspect that" but when have we ever actually made a decision like towards smth

For all of sv ou i felt like the players are fighting each other and disagreeing on what they want action on. "we want tera removed" "no tera should be restricted" "nah tera is fine just ban the mons"

This has also been smth really prevelant during the kyurem test "we should ban tera blast instead" or "gliscor is the problem" and it just feels the community cant agree on a single thing, maybe if people banded together and wanted smth together we wouldnt have a shit show of "we should suspect this and i dont agree on this suspect so therefore DNB"
 
This is incorrect, +1 Roaring Moon is outsped by the Basculegions. Floatzel outspeeds all 3 with Adamant. As per the calcs Roaring Moon gets blown up by Wave Crash with no thinking cap needed.

I haven’t run into Scarf Darkrai or Meow but the latter is inconsequential because any rain that doesn’t have a Rillaboom answer is unviable, and would have the same response for Choice Scarf Meow.
Okay, yeah, I laid an egg with my claim there. Basculegion and Floatzel are slower than Booster Speed +1 Great Tusk. That IS something that is faster than both of them while being slower than Barraskewda, and if your opponent has managed to take out Pelipper, it can be annoying for a rain team in the endgame.

Curious... we always talk about "suspect this suspect that" but when have we ever actually made a decision like towards smth

For all of sv ou i felt like the players are fighting each other and disagreeing on what they want action on. "we want tera removed" "no tera should be restricted" "nah tera is fine just ban the mons"

This has also been smth really prevelant during the kyurem test "we should ban tera blast instead" or "gliscor is the problem" and it just feels the community cant agree on a single thing, maybe if people banded together and wanted smth together we wouldnt have a shit show of "we should suspect this and i dont agree on this suspect so therefore DNB"

That has happened a lot this generation, but once it becomes explicitly clear that something needs to be banned, such as with Archaludon, Volcarona, and Gouging Fire the second time, we get bans.

I'm sure if Gliscor or Kingambit get to the point when there's widespread dissatisfaction with them we can get rid of one of them.
 
Last edited:
Okay, yeah, I laid an egg with my claim there. Basculegion and Floatzel are slower than Booster Speed +1 Great Tusk. That IS something that is faster than both of them while being slower than Barraskewda, and if your opponent has managed to take out Pelipper, it can be annoying for a rain team in the endgame.
That is such a obscure situation that would be chalked up to “skill issue.” How a rain team (with Bascu blocking Rapid Spin) would manage to lose to a Booster Energy Speed +1 Great Tusk in the late game of all things seems nonsensical. To each its own though. If you’re sick of being sniped by Extremespeed, try giving the Bascus a shot. Won’t be disappointed!

I tested out Volcanion the other day. It’s still the nuke of all nukes. Make sure you call out Ogerpon-w on the switch (with Sludge Wave). With Blissey running Tera Dark, Volcanion has no walls.
 
Not how Pressure works, it only affects moves that have Corviknight included in its targetting (Facade, EQ, Trick Room etc, but not Swords Dance or Protect)

==

Anyway, time to add my thoughts on the meta, though honestly I didn't play much for a good few reasons, partially due to a lack of time and partially because man there are some dumb mons that make the tier significantly less enjoyable to play.

Kyurem.. yeah moving on, this is done to death

Gliscor: I'll be honest, this mon isn't the issue, Gholdengo is. Gliscor's main issue is that it can easily stack Spikes and actually has the longevity that other Spikes users don't have while being able to pressure Great Tusk, but that's kind of it? Don't get me wrong, it's incredibly strong, but Gholdengo has felt like the culprit for a long time, going back even to before Gliscor's reintroduction back in HOME and even pre-HOME. Good as Gold is genuinely such a strain on the builder, and it heavily limits what builds are acceptable. Once you're actually able to reliably remove hazards, Gliscor is actually reasonable to handle. EDIT: i forgot about sd facade somehow but thats not a set i struggled with so i cant comment on it

Gholdengo: I already mentioned why Gholdengo is dumb, but I do think Gholdengo is the most problematic Pokemon right now. Good as Gold is the main reason, but Gholdengo can also just pick and choose what it loses to to an unhealthy degree, e.g. Focus Blast for Kingambit/Hamu/RMoon or the million different Tera types and items it can run to get free setup on would-be checks or counters like Lando-T, Gliscor, and especially Ting-lu. I do get that people find it helpful since it's by far the best answer to IDBP Zamazenta, but the strain it causes alongside the fact that there are other excellent zama counters that are healthy is really bad for the meta IMO

Kingambit: Supreme Overlord is dumb, saying its necessary for the meta is pure cope and a sign that the meta is in a really bad state. And it doesn't do a great job at "holding the meta together" because most Pokemon resist and without a Swords Dance boost its not OHKOing things it shouldn't. If you need speed control, use actual speed control. If you need priority, Dragonite, Cinderace, and others are significantly healthier options. Also Tera on this thing is infinitely dumber than Volcarona and Regieleki.

Roaring Moon: This thing is really dumb, its only going to be seen on HO but it so easily wins games and has multiple incredible Tera types. Forcing it to Tera does mean that technically Kingambit might revenge KO but we need to stop using that as an excuse when we all know Kingambit is a problem itself anyway.

Tera: Said it since day one, Tera isn't broken and instead is a great defensive tool. Same type Tera comes with a major cost, and most Pokemon that use defensive Tera minus a few exceptions (cough cough kingambit) are really healthy. I can see why people may dislike it but it actually gets harder without Tera to answer stuff, and this comes from actual experience. Tera Blast, though...

Tera Blast: is not so healthy. It's sometimes cool, often not, and it really just is a cheese tool at the end of the day that only makes Pokemon like Volcarona, Regieleki, and Iron Moth considerably less balanced, especially considering how hard it can be to call the right Tera type on the former and latter.

Zamazenta: Finishing on a Pokemon I think is really healthy right now, Zamazenta is kind of the perfect example of flexible and incredibly good but not overbearing. 4a Boots sets are a joy to use despite the meta's state and IDBP, while strong, isn't particularly hard to handle if you at least acknowledge it in the builder. Having Kingambit and (hopefully) Kyurem gone will even allow more IDBP counters to exist like Pecharunt and Sinistcha, who are both decent but have issues into the former while the latter punishes them for no reason really.


Current meta feelings: 5/10 competitiveness 4/10 enjoyability, the meta has a lot of potential to improve as long as people are more proactive with bans but as it stands the meta is just kinda poor. Do hope to see it be in a good position before next WCoP, though, since 2023 was really fun and has shown Gen 9 can be good.
I agree on Tera, Tera Blast, and Zamazenta but disagree with the rest. I know you said you haven't played much recently, so I encourage you to try SV again because the meta has changed significantly from several months, or even a few weeks ago and does not in anyway resemble DLC 1.

Gliscor: If anything is suspect worthy, it's this. Spikes sets really aren't being complained about at all, you usually see Gliscor paired with Spikes Lu anyway (and even without Ghold on that famous CTC team). It's mainly SD that's the issue. A lot of OLT games have come down to damage races vs SD Gliscor since long term counterplay doesn't really exist. It's not great into offense, so that holds it back, but yeah the hazard thing isn't really even a factor.

Gholdengo: I think this mon is completely fine. It's not the culprit behind the hazard issue (tbh debatable if the role of hazards is unhealthy anyway) and is in fact not even the best spinblocker anymore - that's Sinistcha. There's also an inherent opportunity cost to running Focus, as good as it looks (it's still not a bad option by any means), partially because 70% in a meta where you can't really afford to miss is quite awful and partially because Make It Rain or Gleam is just so much more consistent for minimal downside. It's also much harder to fit Offensive Ghold Sets since it needs to serve as a dedicated Zama check on many teams. As for tera enabling free set up, I've personally found that Ghold is not one of the better tera abusers in this current metagame. People have realised just how important it is to conserve tera until you can all but guarantee a win, and Gholdengo isn't really that mon unless the team is highly passive in which case Gholdengo isn't the only thing that punishes this. I'd eagerly sack a mon just for my opponent to expend tera before I do, as long as it does not provide them with a game winning advantage. As long as Ting Lu and Kingambit exist, I could never support action on Gholdengo.

Kingambit: I'm aware of how controversial this take is, but I don't think this mon is banworthy or even unhealthy outside of Tera Blast Fairy. It has the capacity to beat any of its counters given the right tera and game state but I do not think this makes it broken, unlike Home and DLC 1. Most teams will naturally fit 2+ Kingambit checks that can mostly handle it because these mons are generally good into the rest of the metagame, and imo it's fine anyway to dedicate 2+ mons to check your opponent's tera reliant win con, given just how valuable tera is.

I also do think Kingambit holds the metagame together, but I don't even think this is argument is necessary for preserving it. Still, it provides an immensely valuable strong, no immunity priority that, in tandem with its bulk and typing, lets it revenge kill almost the entire offensive metagame when chipped. It differs from mons like Ace and Dnite with its completely unique defensive profile that lets it check mons that few others could (e.g. chipped dnite, ghold, kyurem, etc) all in one slot. I hope people realise the value of the sheer role compression it provides, speaking as someone who as experienced an at least similar enough tier (Natdex OU - not a fully accurate comparison, but Gambit had a similar role over there) where its absence is definitely felt in the builder.

I'm not saying it's not immensely threatening, it's still demonstrably the best closer in tournaments along with Zama and Gliscor, but I haven't found enough examples where this win could not be said to have been the result of at least good play or a hard punish of an opponent's misplay.

Roaring Moon: It's very good, definitely not mid, especially when experimenting with new tera types, but it's a tera hog that's a little too inconsistent to be broken. Common structures, such as Lando + Prio, can reasonably handle Roaring Moon:
- if they don't tera, u can go helmet lando on dd, and uturn out to ur prio user
- if they do, well they burned tera, and a well built team should be able to rkill even if it picks up a kill (cuz tera is worth more)
I don't think its usefulness in breaking early game is demonstrative of disproportionate efficacy either.

I love the current state of the metagame, and would probably rate in 9/10 for fun and 7-8/10 for competitiveness.
 
Last edited:
Zamazenta is actually equipped to deal with several different scenarios at once, and the problem I find with it is finding out what it has. I can't just switch into Moltres if it has Stone Edge. I can't just set up my own IronPress if it has Roar. I find it hard to have a common check that can answer everything it can throw all at once, except Bold Ghold.
You're right that Zama can deal with a lot by itself, but there's a lot of cores that handle it together and minimize how much it can get away with. IDBP Zama has 3 required moves in Body Press, ID, and Crunch, so it only has one move slot free. Lando+Glowking/Ghold weakens Crunch which is the only move Zama can hit them with. Ghost/Glowking + Moltres can scout Stone Edge and bait Zama into crunching and getting burned. Fairy/Burn + strong Ground type can force Zama to tera fire and be handled by ground types, though ID makes that less reliable. Moon/Dragonite / Waterpon can force it to come out early and take good chip that makes it harder for it to set up later.

Zama wants a lot of coverage but commonly used cores can handle it well. It also is usually forced to come in earlier than it would like because of its defensive utility and then loses some of its ease of setup.
 
The first question is about the conclusion in that thread. I read everything and the conclusion was to have slightly high ELO + the usual GXE. I understand the ELO, but why did they also keep the GXE? It feels like it was to make it slightly harder, but then can't you just ask a slightly higher ELO? GXE is supposed to add consistency(?), but why is that valuable?
There was always going to be a GXE or COIL component.

Being able to consistently beat lesser players is a design, not a flaw. Being efficient across a larger sample is a design, not a flaw. Rate statistics achieve quality controlling over samples that counting stats like ELO fail you on.

Anyone who can get up to 1650 or 1700 can wait for non-peak hours and snipe the same 3-5 teams they are facing to scale 50-100 points. And inflating ELO to 1800 was a non-starter for the start due to it only being top ~100-125 of ladder when >100-125 people get reqs every suspect.

We could’ve just done flat 1750 ELO if people really wanted, but that felt easier than current requirements as many people who took 50+ games ended up there and barely scraping 80 GXE anyway. 1750 ELO with a 76 GXE, for example, is supremely unimpressive, in my opinion. This is obviously just the first step in what could be a multi-step evolution of reqs that will include a ton of feedback from suspects themselves, but when you factor in higher ELO as non-starter and your options are basically keeping the status quo, trying a multi-pronged approach, going flat 1750, or adopting aggressive COIL (which is largely GXE scaling over games played), the decision makes itself.

People claiming they did not have time to respond in the thread weird me out because we have 2 full days after my proposal was made and there was a ton of discourse in the prior week+ on the topic as well.
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2223576308-ekusdj58a2kgpiaini2e53u6fi71ri3pw

Life Orb Hydrapple is real folks, pack it up stall players we're done here (disregard me getting my Gliscor burned)
When I saw the Earth Power crit do 37% to Blissey I knew he was the goat
Speaking of swift swimmers, I have long been perplexed by people’s commitment to Barraskewda. It has terrible can’t-tank-a-single-priority-move bulk, and is outdamaged by both Basculegion-M and Floatzel (yes, Wave Crash makes a big difference….)

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 351-414 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 352-415 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I’m still going to run Bascu-F until something is done about Uber Fenris Wolf. But for physical swimmers, what gives?
Barraskewda has a much better speed tier. First off, if Rain is down, it’s still fast unlike the Bascs, who don’t even outspeed scarf Meow with Rain up. Second off, Barraskewda has real coverage unlike Basc-M. Thirdly, the Wave Crashers just kill themselves.
 
We could’ve just done flat 1750 ELO if people really wanted, but that felt easier than current requirements as many people who took 50+ games ended up there and barely scraping 80 GXE anyway. 1750 ELO with a 76 GXE, for example, is supremely unimpressive, in my opinion. This is obviously just the first step in what could be a multi-step evolution of reqs that will include a ton of feedback from suspects themselves, but when you factor in higher ELO as non-starter and your options are basically keeping the status quo, trying a multi-pronged approach, going flat 1750, or adopting aggressive COIL (which is largely GXE scaling over games played), the decision makes itself.
You are 100% right that a flat 1750 ELO requirement would be much easier than current requirements.

People who whine about GXE requirements obviously don't realize that consistently winning no matter where you are on the ladder shows a level of skill that laddering during non-peak hours against weaker players and teams for a high ELO doesn't. Thus Glicko, which GXE is based on, is a much better barometer of skill than ELO is.

I'm all for making reqs harder. I may have gotten reqs for the Tera suspect, but the ladder was inflated at the time, and I made a ton of alts. I feel that players like me should be gatekept from participating in the process since I have not reached a requisite level of skill that demonstrates enough aptitude for the game.
 
regarding the ou community and my place in it

this should probably be its own thread but this is where i post 90% of my posts anyway so fuck it, i might as well make it here

i've been under quite a bit of stress lately for a lot of irl reasons and the events of the past few days have not been helping. the kyurem suspect's discussion thread already left a very bad taste in my mouth, as did the decision to split future suspect discussion threads, which i maintain was not a discussion that was started in good faith and will not raise the level of dialogue unless the suspect etiquette guidelines are strictly enforced. ultimately, though, things were starting to look brighter for sv ou and i made my peace with the direction things were going

that has changed.

the discovery of voter fraud and overturning of the kyurem suspect result has seriously shaken my faith in the suspect process and the community. this was the place i went to try and take my mind off of real-world problems like corruption and fraud, and here it turns out that this sort of dishonesty exists even at the highest level of competitive play. sure, in this case it was caught and punished, the actions of our moderation and council should be commended and i take no issue with them, but it went undetected for at least six suspect tests and probably would have gone on for longer if someone involved hadn't blown the whistle on it—how do we know there aren't other instances of this that no participants have come clean about? and the fact that this resulted in a profoundly unhealthy mon dropping back down because exactly one person voted against their own best interest as a joke is infuriating. i've lost what remaining hope i had for the future of the tier because of this

not only that, but the recent massive internal document leaks have caused a lot of discussions and arguments elsewhere in the community and i don't feel very comfortable about some of the arguments that have been had and some of the things being said. i won't go into any detail on the contents or the things i take issue with because they're not really relevant to ou, but suffice it to say that a lot of people are taking things well outside of the realm of "this joke is funny in moderation", and an entire other contingent of people are taking said jokes way too seriously. there were also a couple comments directed my way that i found deeply upsetting, although i'm not sure how much actual hostility was behind them. this isn't exclusive to the ou community, but a lot of the things that make me uncomfortable have been done and said in ou-related discords and it's affected my view of some people in the community

so in conclusion, i'm going to be stepping back from ou and its community until further notice. there are some discords i'm still in and i'm of course still participating in the ongoing tour i signed up for, but aside from that i'd like to put some distance between myself and the community and do some serious re-evaluation of where i fit here. i'll still be active in other areas of the smogon community, but for now that's all from me ou-wise. hopefully the community can heal from this

rest assured, i will be back
I don't normally post too much here (or anywhere else in Smogon TBH), but I feel like losing people that recurrently give back to the community as a whole, be it in the format of constructive criticism, callout, hell, even Meme-ing sometimes is really detrimental to the OU Sub. I am also a pretty low-ladder casul, but have been with this community since a while back, first lurking then moving onto light posting (like this one). Also I have been playing this Poké games since back in Gen I (on a Cartridge, mind you, so GBC). So it pains me to see you go man. I normally don't bother posting, but losing people that genuinely care about what the OU Meta becomes are hard to come by. I hope to see you back sooner than later.

A small reflection on this, remember that all is temporary, good things pass by... Bad things pass by even faster... Even for RL stuff.
 
As Meowscarada's strongest solider, I do believe the rise of :Moltres: / :Zapdos: is certainly annoying for it since its discouraging its main threatening move, Triple Axel, but on the flipside, both Pokemon can barely be considered switch-ins I think because Knock Off is severally crippling both Pokemon and their method of checking it long-term is with an RNG Flame Body / Static. I've been trying Protective Pads on Meowscarada, which is awesome to beat these Pokemon without worrying about these Static / Flame Body Procs and you can use it to beat these Birds down long-term, click u-turn safely, click Triple Axel without taking chip from Lando-T, etc. Pair it with some bird switch-ins like :Raging Bolt: and :Slowking-Galar: and they are completely cooked, with these two also helping against :Corviknight:.

The sets you mentioned, like Choice Scarf, are still really good I think, with it being able to revenge kill a lot of fast Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Ogerpon-W, Deo-S, Iron Valiant, and even Kyurem if you opt for Low Kick. Choice Band is also amazing and very difficult to switch-into properly without relying on an RNG Bird of choice. That said, I think there is a lot of unexplored variety with Meowscarada, which is fair its not the first option that one may chose for certain roles, but I think its ability to run multiple different items besides Boots and its strong speed tier + moveset options and perfect STAB Coverage are all great traits in OU that lend itself to more roles than the standard band / scarf sets.

One set I've been having fun with beyond Protective pads during the kyurem-less meta was a Rocky Helmet Spikes set, which traded favorably into opposing leads like Landorus-T and Samurott, punishing moves like Ceaseless Edge while also maintaining a high threat level with its good Flower Trick / Knock Off / Triple Axel coverage. Its a bit like Rocky Helmet Deoxys-S, except with Protean to allow for some funny shenanigans in exchange for less speed. One interactions in particular I like with this set is setting up Spikes as Kingambit switches in, while weakening it with 2 rounds of Rocky Helmet chip damage, helping Great Tusk deal with it later while also having multiple layers to chip down other annoying Pokemon like Ogerpon-W. This set also still performed well offensively against Bulky offensive cores like Iron Crown + Lando-T + Samurott-H, which Meowscarada has a decent MU into as is.
Meowscarada @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel

In general, I think Meowscarada is still a bit unexplored in the current metagame. The metagame is becoming a bit more like the DLC1 / Home metagame I think, espicially with the possibility of :Gliscor: going and Meowscarada was notoriously excellent in those metagames, able to run a high variety of sets (one of my favorites in earlier metagame was Tera Dark Overgrow with Low Kick, which had a very limited amount of switch-ins and strong priority for various weather threats). While Triple Axel was a great gift from the DLC, I do feel that its also led to meowscarada being bottlenecked into roles that revolve around that move and Protean, whereas I personally felt Meowscarada was at its peak when it didn't have to rely on Protean like in the Pre-Home / Home / DLC1 metagames. I am hoping to see more metagame optimizations from this mon in the future to widen its reach and utility

Preach it! I've been so used to Triple Axle, I forgot that it can do a lot more. Kyu being around has made me appreciate Toxic Spikes a little more (in general, not just on the cat). Even a single layer is useful, as it does more immediate damage to switch ins like Cinder.
I get that the Pons and Weavile are more specific in what they can do. One's stronger with utility, the other is faster outright. The Cat is a very nice mix, and I enjoy using it when I'm taking advantage of her various tricks.

Scarf is so good, however, that I've used it as a catch all speed crutch (lower ELO loves Flying Moon). It decimates Draga and Dark, two moms it simply couldn't compete with beforehand.
 
Preach it! I've been so used to Triple Axle, I forgot that it can do a lot more. Kyu being around has made me appreciate Toxic Spikes a little more (in general, not just on the cat). Even a single layer is useful, as it does more immediate damage to switch ins like Cinder.
I get that the Pons and Weavile are more specific in what they can do. One's stronger with utility, the other is faster outright. The Cat is a very nice mix, and I enjoy using it when I'm taking advantage of her various tricks.

Scarf is so good, however, that I've used it as a catch all speed crutch (lower ELO loves Flying Moon). It decimates Draga and Dark, two moms it simply couldn't compete with beforehand.
I’ve had success with TSpike Glowking on my AV Zamazenta team. Good against Kyurem AND Woger!
 
The situation regarding voter fraud has slowed down our process anyway. Although I think Gliscor would be the most feasible next step I highly doubt we are going to be suspecting it at least for a little bit while we figure out how to secure the process and also to let people get their heads back in the game. People are still understandably shaken up, and we still have a bit of work left to do to get things in order imo.

For the record I also don't think this would be spamming suspects; none of what I propose would be relentlessly back to back. To be clear, it's just a tentative pipeline based on trends I've seen and my own personal opinions! That being said I do think there is still work to be done with this tier, and there are a lot of people who feel the same. I think it's important to remain open minded about suspects if they could potentially help improve the tier and are done deliberately.


Hi, don't worry, I totally understand your confusion! Let me try to make my thought process a bit clearer:

The reason I'm suggesting we wait a bit on Tera Blast specifically is because most people just don't really view it as a pressing problem. There has been a lot more support for action lately, but the thing about Tera Blast is that its dynamic with the tier isn't really very obvious or constraining in a conventional sense. The argument against it is almost completely centered around its unhealthy interactions with Tera and defensive counterplay to offensive Pokemon, and it's because of that that there are a lot of people who don't view it as pressing enough to act on as a top priority. While we could theoretically wind up with a metagame that resembles one we could possibly have sooner, at the end of the day, our process is designed to be as inclusive as possible and to be a learning process; it's important that our priorities reflect that. While, yes, it could theoretically take longer, it lowers the polarity in opinions that would come from us rushing to act on divisive things, and we can reduce that divisiveness with inclusive discussions and planning, thus letting action occur more organically and ensuring everyone is on the same page.

Maybe terrible comparison, but it's kind of politics, in the sense that we act on precedent and the will of the wider community, and heed complicated talking points with caution and planning. Hopefully that makes sense!
Gliscor is also a divisive mon but it makes sense to target the less polarizing thing first

Although anti tera blast sentiment is definitely prevalent in the players who typically get reqs


Also on the topic of mons that are definitely polarizing, Gholdengo is definitely one I kind of don't like being around. Sure everything about it is healthy other than good as gold, but I think Ghold's removal would objectively be good for the tier and remedy the hazard problem, and would encourage experimentation with hazard removal mons who would suck otherwise with Ghold in the tier. Like I don't mind Ghold as a defensive catch all that can offensively check stuff but it has one of the most unhealthy abilities in the game making it a cracked spinblocker that thus creates some unhealthy dynamics with the limited hazard removal.

I don't like those dynamics even if ghold itself isn't broken, it definitely pushes into unhealthy territory with good as gold, which makes it a strange case that way later down the line may come into play months later, which makes ghold weirdly tricky to call for action on in that way. I certainly wouldn't mind a ghold suspect down the line, as while I don't think it is broken and has a lot of healthy attributes, good as gold is objectively unhealthy for a singles format in my eyes which makes it a bit of a strange case
 
Last edited:
Maybe in two weeks time things will change, but man after three days I'm sick of Kyurem. You know when someone pulls up with Tera Ghost Shadow Ball Kyurem, and it almost cooks you that maybe there's a problem(admittedly my team was a post Kyurem ban team thus weak to kyurem). I don't even think Volcarona saves us at this point because you know the second the Moth drops Kyurchuds will just switch to Rock Slide. While I know Gliscor is next because of logistics I'd highly suggest keeping a close eye on Kyurem, and be ready for an emergency suspect.
 
Maybe in two weeks time things will change, but man after three days I'm sick of Kyurem. You know when someone pulls up with Tera Ghost Shadow Ball Kyurem, and it almost cooks you that maybe there's a problem(admittedly my team was a post Kyurem ban team thus weak to kyurem). I don't even think Volcarona saves us at this point because you know the second the Moth drops Kyurchuds will just switch to Rock Slide. While I know Gliscor is next because of logistics I'd highly suggest keeping a close eye on Kyurem, and be ready for an emergency suspect.
I don't believe there's even a remote possibility of Kyurem suspect #3 occurring anytime within the next 6 months due to the optics. We can keep a close eye on it for all we want, but there's no chance that there'll be "an emergency suspect" anytime soon.
 
Back
Top