Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

with tera, kgb will be much less volatile, and with the abundance of strong fighting types in lop, shifu, zama, etc. i dont think kgb will ever be broken in a no tera meta. moreover, kgb should be looked at past just its swords dance sets; in svou kgb gets near no support moves, but in nd kgb gets access to pursuit, knock off, toxic, etc. on top of the usual sd sucker ihead. very good mon. ban tera unban kgb
 
If a tera suspect ever happens, will it be all or nothing like last time or will half measures like tera preview or banning tera blast be options? Honestly, I don't think anything but a full ban would really address the core issue but maybe it's worth a shot? Just so people don't feel like they have to pick between two extremes.

Before the suspect, would it be possible for a list of what the council would vote on to be unbanned/retested to be provided? Would it make sense to treat it as pretty much another start of gen (i.e. just unban everything and quickly reban anything that's demonstrably broken)? Idk if a suspect will even happen, but maybe it would be good for giving an idea to people voting of just how different a teraless metagame could be?

With varying degrees of potential brokenness, I think everything below is probably worth unbanning or at least looking into?
Definitely unban
:Gholdengo: :Kingambit: :Melmetal: :Regieleki: :Dragapult: :Zamazenta: :Terapagos-Terastal: :Shedinja:
Worth a shot
:Sneasler: :Roaring-Moon: :Palafin-Hero: :Gouging-Fire: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Darkrai: :Baxcalibur: :Annihilape: :Espathra: :Walking-Wake: :Deoxys-Speed::Zygarde:
 
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If a tera suspect ever happens, will it be all or nothing like last time or will half measures like tera preview or banning tera blast be options? Honestly, I don't think anything but a full ban would really address the core issue but maybe it's worth a shot? Just so people don't feel like they have to pick between two extremes.

Before the suspect, would it be possible for a list of what the council would vote on to be unbanned/retested to be provided? Would it make sense to treat it as pretty much another start of gen (i.e. just unban everything and quickly reban anything that's demonstrably broken)? Idk if a suspect will even happen, but maybe it would be good for giving an idea to people voting of just how different a teraless metagame could be?

With varying degrees of potential brokenness, I think everything below is probably worth unbanning or at least looking into?
Definitely unban
:Gholdengo: :Kingambit: :Melmetal: :Regieleki: :Dragapult: :Zamazenta: :Terapagos-Terastal: :Shedinja:
Worth a shot
:Sneasler: :Roaring-Moon: :Palafin-Hero: :Gouging-Fire: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Darkrai: :Baxcalibur: :Annihilape: :Espathra: :Walking-Wake: :Deoxys-Speed::Zygarde:
Regarding a tera suspect, Tera Preview simply wouldn't be worth it (especially at this point) simply because it doesn't address the core issue with the mechanic as a whole, which imo happens from a teambuilding level. It effectively inflates the amount of huge threats to prep for on top of an already large list, and knowing what something will change into isn't something that if you didn't prep for it anyways. It doesn't reduce the pressure in the builder which drives the metagame towards such a heavy offense focused tier.

Regarding unbans in a theoretical non tera meta, I personally think a council vote on what to unban is more productive than simply unbanning everything as that would just be chaos again. Yeah you could quickly ban some things, but only so much. And I think it's better to focus on unbanning obvious cases and then gradually examine more borderline cases from there. Speaking of that, I think obvious cases include Regieleki (for obvious reasons) as well as Melmetal, Shedinja and Terapagos (again, obvious), and Dragapult. I'm sort of iffy on Ghold, as I'd still be worried about its Bulky NP sets impact on Balance since it abuses so many of the staples found there.

The worth a shot section you brought up, Gouging Fire was more broken as a result of Z moves than Tera and I'd rather it be left in the cage of Ubers. Darkrai was also more broken because of Z sets (especially Hynosis), so I'd leave that alone too. Palafin is probably okay to test, I'm sort of unsure about Hearthflame because it still doesn't really have many defense answers even without Tera. I think Ape and Espathra would possibly be okay in a nontera meta? The latter no longer having tera to cheat bad match ups would make it infinitely harder to stay on the field and accrue boosts and it wouldn't have an easy time getting through teams as nontera and non invested Dazzling Gleam is piss weak even at +1. And Ape similarly wouldn't be able to escape its bad defensive typing and would be easier to deny or limit its opportunities. Walking Wake can stay canned for ever though. Again, Z moves helped break it (some SubSunny sets ran them to stupid effect) and its partnership with ZardY is far more potent in a tier where it lacks many checks. It would honestly be harder to answer without Tera. I'm not entirely sure why DeoS is here, since its ban had little or nothing to do with Tera. And I'm also confused why Zygarde is here when it was never unbanned to begin with this gen, and would be every bit as miserably awful to play around as it always is. It was dumb last gen and it'd be dumb this gen.
 
Regarding a tera suspect, Tera Preview simply wouldn't be worth it (especially at this point) simply because it doesn't address the core issue with the mechanic as a whole, which imo happens from a teambuilding level. It effectively inflates the amount of huge threats to prep for on top of an already large list, and knowing what something will change into isn't something that if you didn't prep for it anyways. It doesn't reduce the pressure in the builder which drives the metagame towards such a heavy offense focused tier.

Regarding unbans in a theoretical non tera meta, I personally think a council vote on what to unban is more productive than simply unbanning everything as that would just be chaos again. Yeah you could quickly ban some things, but only so much. And I think it's better to focus on unbanning obvious cases and then gradually examine more borderline cases from there. Speaking of that, I think obvious cases include Regieleki (for obvious reasons) as well as Melmetal, Shedinja and Terapagos (again, obvious), and Dragapult. I'm sort of iffy on Ghold, as I'd still be worried about its Bulky NP sets impact on Balance since it abuses so many of the staples found there.

The worth a shot section you brought up, Gouging Fire was more broken as a result of Z moves than Tera and I'd rather it be left in the cage of Ubers. Darkrai was also more broken because of Z sets (especially Hynosis), so I'd leave that alone too. Palafin is probably okay to test, I'm sort of unsure about Hearthflame because it still doesn't really have many defense answers even without Tera. I think Ape and Espathra would possibly be okay in a nontera meta? The latter no longer having tera to cheat bad match ups would make it infinitely harder to stay on the field and accrue boosts and it wouldn't have an easy time getting through teams as nontera and non invested Dazzling Gleam is piss weak even at +1. And Ape similarly wouldn't be able to escape its bad defensive typing and would be easier to deny or limit its opportunities. Walking Wake can stay canned for ever though. Again, Z moves helped break it (some SubSunny sets ran them to stupid effect) and its partnership with ZardY is far more potent in a tier where it lacks many checks. It would honestly be harder to answer without Tera. I'm not entirely sure why DeoS is here, since its ban had little or nothing to do with Tera. And I'm also confused why Zygarde is here when it was never unbanned to begin with this gen, and would be every bit as miserably awful to play around as it always is. It was dumb last gen and it'd be dumb this gen.
While I also don't think tera preview would really help, it might be more pragmatic to just have it as an option anyway. A half measure like that is probably more likely to get 60% in a suspect, and this is better than no progress at all which I fear is the likely outcome otherwise.

As for :Gholdengo:, I'm pretty confident it would be ok. Pursuit :Kingambit: fits pretty easily on balance and should be able to remove non-focus blast gholdengo by itself. Aside from that, balance can probably fit stuff like bulky :Volcarona:, :Moltres:, and :Ting-Lu:. You could limit it with proactive play and hazards as well. Balance teams would definitely need to account for it, but imo adaptations to Gholdengo in a teraless, Kingambit metagame seem very possible.

I'm aware that a lot of the mons in the 'worth a shot' section weren't entirely broken by tera, but you also have to account for the fact that a teraless metagame would be very different. For example, IronPress :Zamazenta: can limit :Gouging-Fire: and :Darkrai:, and this wasn't in the tier at the time of their bans. Strong priority from :Palafin-Hero: makes answering cheese like :Espathra: and :Sneasler: easier and greatly limits hyper offense in general. :Melmetal: can always eat a single hit from :Roaring-Moon: no matter what while OHKOing back. It would be an entirely different ecosystem. Of course, I'm far from certain on a lot of these guys (Still not too happy about z hypnosis rai for example), but I think at least some of the mons on that list should be worth retesting if we want to do our due diligence.

My interest in testing stuff like :Deoxys-Speed: and :Walking-Wake: mainly comes from me maining SV OU where they are good but not exactly spectacular. I would have been in favour of testing both of them regardless of a tera ban given how the metagame has changed from when they were initially qbed, but I understand this is an unpopular position and that OU and ND are quite different.

:Zygarde: is definitely the most broken of them, but maybe new mons like :Great-Tusk: and :Zamazenta: could give it some trouble? I doubt that's enough, but I'll admit the fact that we never got to see it in practice in gen 9 is a source of curiosity.
 
I'm not entirely sure why DeoS is here, since its ban had little or nothing to do with Tera. And I'm also confused why Zygarde is here when it was never unbanned to begin with this gen, and would be every bit as miserably awful to play around as it always is. It was dumb last gen and it'd be dumb this gen.
Unbanning Deoxys-S is such a bad idea because literally only Mega Diancie beats it in the lead matchup. Glimmora, Landorus-T and Ribombee all lose to Taunt, while Grimmsnarl and Shuckle both lose to Magic Coat, all while Deoxys-S sets up with Stealth Rock, Spikes, Light Screen and Reflect. Unbanning Deoxys-S is just a massive buff to HO because only Mega Diancie teams can stop it from setting 10000 hazards before dying, and that's assuming it's not Dual Screens or not running some niche set that specifically beats Diancie (like idfk Groundium Z Stomping Tantrum to snipe it Turn 1).

Zygarde is just as bad IMO, Coil sets are basically unkillable against most physical attackers (especially without SE coverage) while Dragon Dance Substitute leeches off of the passive mons that would handle Coil sets decently like Gliscor or Landorus-T. Even trapper sets with Thousand Waves, or Choice Band sets spamming Thousand Arrows would be frustrating to fight against.
 
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Unbanning Deoxys-S is such a bad idea because literally only Mega Diancie beats it in the lead matchup. Glimmora, Landorus-T and Ribombee all lose to Taunt, while Grimmsnarl and Shuckle both lose to Magic Coat, all while Deoxys-S sets up with Stealth Rock, Spikes, Light Screen and Reflect. Unbanning Deoxys-S is just a massive buff to HO because only Mega Diancie teams can stop it from setting 10000 hazards before dying, and that's assuming it's not Dual Screens or not running some niche set that specifically beats Diancie (like idfk Groundium Z Stomping Tantrum to snipe it Turn 1).
Deoxys speed has proven to be an underwhelming lead matchup, glimmora can easily beat it with mud shot or rock tomb sets and grimmsnarl easily beats it with foul play sets, its a nice mix of unpredictable where you dont know if its hazards or screens but its nothing overwhelming as a lead as well evidenced by how its performed in SV tiers even dropping to UU, every other lead has options to handle it if need be
 
Deoxys speed has proven to be an underwhelming lead matchup, glimmora can easily beat it with mud shot or rock tomb sets and grimmsnarl easily beats it with foul play sets, its a nice mix of unpredictable where you dont know if its hazards or screens but its nothing overwhelming as a lead as well evidenced by how its performed in SV tiers even dropping to UU, every other lead has options to handle it if need be
First of all, deo-s can still outspeed glimmora at -1 spe without huge investment. Also here deo-s has magic coat to win almost any hazard lead and nasty plot z set to break
 
Deoxys speed has proven to be an underwhelming lead matchup, glimmora can easily beat it with mud shot or rock tomb sets and grimmsnarl easily beats it with foul play sets, its a nice mix of unpredictable where you dont know if its hazards or screens but its nothing overwhelming as a lead as well evidenced by how its performed in SV tiers even dropping to UU, every other lead has options to handle it if need be
It falling to UU was a freak fluke because it was being underexplored and because ladder in SVOU can kinda suck at using good mons (they still use Meow which has sucked for awhile). Glimmora cannot "easily" beat it, as pointed out Deo-S still outruns it at -1 with minimal speed investment (like only needing 52 speed EVs to still outpace it, also Glimm is already much less viable here compared to SV anyways). While regular SVOU might have leads that can have a better time, here is a different story as Mega Diancie really is the only viable lead that can have a somewhat positive match up into it. There's Hamurott I guess if we're stretching? But that's better used outside the lead slot these days. At best it would just enable offense to an obnoxious degree and make the issue worse than it already is, which isn't something we need Tera or no.
 
If a tera suspect ever happens, will it be all or nothing like last time or will half measures like tera preview or banning tera blast be options? Honestly, I don't think anything but a full ban would really address the core issue but maybe it's worth a shot? Just so people don't feel like they have to pick between two extremes.

Before the suspect, would it be possible for a list of what the council would vote on to be unbanned/retested to be provided? Would it make sense to treat it as pretty much another start of gen (i.e. just unban everything and quickly reban anything that's demonstrably broken)? Idk if a suspect will even happen, but maybe it would be good for giving an idea to people voting of just how different a teraless metagame could be?

With varying degrees of potential brokenness, I think everything below is probably worth unbanning or at least looking into?
Definitely unban
:Gholdengo: :Kingambit: :Melmetal: :Regieleki: :Dragapult: :Zamazenta: :Terapagos-Terastal: :Shedinja:
Worth a shot
:Sneasler: :Roaring-Moon: :Palafin-Hero: :Gouging-Fire: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Darkrai: :Baxcalibur: :Annihilape: :Espathra: :Walking-Wake: :Deoxys-Speed::Zygarde:
Unbanning Shedninja is the most absurd idea i’ve heard of in a while
We all know about the Tera electric air balloon madness, it’s even banned from ND Ubers!
It heavily restricts team options as they need 1 source of passive damage once it switches in, rocks aren’t an entirely good solution, since hazard removal/prevention exists but can help against a shedninja also it gets sunny day to prevent sandstorm/hail damage.
If Tera gets banned then shedninja definitely deserves an unban, but as long as it is able to Tera, it’s banned.
 
If a tera suspect ever happens, will it be all or nothing like last time or will half measures like tera preview or banning tera blast be options? Honestly, I don't think anything but a full ban would really address the core issue but maybe it's worth a shot? Just so people don't feel like they have to pick between two extremes.

Before the suspect, would it be possible for a list of what the council would vote on to be unbanned/retested to be provided? Would it make sense to treat it as pretty much another start of gen (i.e. just unban everything and quickly reban anything that's demonstrably broken)? Idk if a suspect will even happen, but maybe it would be good for giving an idea to people voting of just how different a teraless metagame could be?

With varying degrees of potential brokenness, I think everything below is probably worth unbanning or at least looking into?
Definitely unban
:Gholdengo: :Kingambit: :Melmetal: :Regieleki: :Dragapult: :Zamazenta: :Terapagos-Terastal: :Shedinja:
Worth a shot
:Sneasler: :Roaring-Moon: :Palafin-Hero: :Gouging-Fire: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Darkrai: :Baxcalibur: :Annihilape: :Espathra: :Walking-Wake: :Deoxys-Speed::Zygarde:
A few unbans you mentioned definitely deserve a shot (mainly gholdengo, gambit and dragapult), I’m not going to full on say that they deserve an unban. Gambit (from personal hate instead of it actually being broken) should stay banned, I’m not planning on posting about my hatred for gambit any time soon, but I hate that thing, and I know sucker punch spam has counter play, but then it has still left a scar. Anyways, Sneasler is a gambler’s wet dream, not worth a shot at all. R moon and annhilape will stay banned as long it’s Tera is allowed.
Now deoxys-speed and zyguarde, even 50% aren’t good ideas at all. Deoxys Speed at least will be some what tolerable with a no gholdengo meta game (key word: somewhat). Doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t be broken, hyper offense is although not at an unbearable state, is at the verge of being banworthy really, especially with mega Pokémon (I have tried webs mega gardevoir, it’s not that good but can work against good/decent matchups). With deoxys speed, Defog is just mandatory cuz ghost types do exist to block spin (Although pursuit trapping is a great way to deal with them). It can easily win against other lead matchups (through taunt) and is just a massive buff to HO and will likely make it overpowered.
Zyguarde 50% is just a massive no, I have dominated ND Ubers ladder with glare d dance (unfortunately my prime days are gone and my elo tanked quite a bit). Even if it doesn’t have sub, glare alone is enough to start sweeping.
 
Unbanning Shedninja is the most absurd idea i’ve heard of in a while
We all know about the Tera electric air balloon madness, it’s even banned from ND Ubers!
It heavily restricts team options as they need 1 source of passive damage once it switches in, rocks aren’t an entirely good solution, since hazard removal/prevention exists but can help against a shedninja also it gets sunny day to prevent sandstorm/hail damage.
If Tera gets banned then shedninja definitely deserves an unban, but as long as it is able to Tera, it’s banned.
this was if tera was potentially banned i am pretty sure. shed would just be itself again.
 
well i definitely skipped the last sentence since you were just rallying against a strawman of unbanning shed right now haha

back to the point, i think i agree with wesley plus eleki and melm. idk why eleki would stay banned. please feel free to enlighten me tho.

z pult is still insane, screw wake and rai and snease and gouge and palafin. still wish roaring moon could join the party but z drag/ground/dark is a problem too.
 
well i definitely skipped the last sentence since you were just rallying against a strawman of unbanning shed right now haha

back to the point, i think i agree with wesley plus eleki and melm. idk why eleki would stay banned. please feel free to enlighten me tho.

z pult is still insane, screw wake and rai and snease and gouge and palafin. still wish roaring moon could join the party but z drag/ground/dark is a problem too.
What do you mean by Wesley? But anyways eleki will get to combat it’s only weakness, a ground type, 100 sp Atk is quite mediocre but then transistor exists for the electric moves so that’s a 0.8x multiplier of regieleki’s stabs as of gen 9, since it was a 2x multiplier in gen 8. It can easily beat lando (which alone doesn’t make a Pokémon broken) but then lando was it’s biggest checks, boltbeam eleki forces you’re ground type to have an ice resisting secondary typing, like swampert’s water or excadrill’s steel, but that restricts team building heavily, not to say that these ground types are bad, just to say that it’s hyper specific on which ground types you can use, and a ground type is very important for a team, with it being, well not a must have but more of a should have.
In fact here are all the usable ground types in the format which are neutral to ice, and a few more which can potentially wall eleki even tho they’re weak:
OU- :iron treads: :Clodsire: (note Clodsire with max sp. def investment and a sp. def boosting nature is still 3 hit ko’d)
UU- :excadrill: :mamoswine: :ting-Lu: (note ting-Lu get’s 4 hit ko’d with max sp. def investment and a sp. def boosting nature, 4HKO may not seem much but it’s valuable chip on ting-Lu since rest is not reliable hp recovery, and leftovers takes several turns to heal ting Lu back to full)
RU- :camerupt: :dugtrio-alola: :gastrodon: :quagsire: :seismitoad: :steelix: :stunfisk-galar: :swampert: :whiscash:
(This list excludes unevolved Pokémon and mega since they have the same typing as their forms pre mega evolving)
A lot of the mons in the list are straight up unviable or not tanky. Eleki should definitely stay banned.
 
again, this is if tera is banned... i'm not sure if you're intentionally strawmanning or not at this point. if you scroll up you will see a post by user Wesleyy.
I just went on a useless yap sesh that means, damn.
But yes, if Tera is banned eleki and shed will undoubtedly be unbanned.
Ghold made the hazard game too much of nuisance hence I disagree with it (also cuz that means Ogerpon-Wellspring, my beloved, is better) and gambit (out of personal hate) should stay banned, but I do feel like it deserves a retest. Zama can too use a retest.
 
Right now, the common theme seems to be that we want to create a balanced Metagame. To that end, I believe that certain Pokémon such as Kingambit, Gholdengo and others like Melmetal can accomplish that end. KB especially works well as a source of anti-offense button which the tier sorely lacks as KB is very slap-able and can go on a variety of teams. What pushed most of these Pokémon over the edge is the fact that they could change their types with Tera. Without that ability we have sufficient tools to account for each of them in the team builder.

And I’m going to stand on the hill of Palafin not being broken in a metagame where Ogerpon wellspring is everywhere. I mean sure if we banned the latter then yeah we don’t need to bring back Palafin. So I’m in the logic of either keeping both or banning both of them together. Waterpon is just as outrageous on a rain team as anything else. And faster to boot while being able to be used immediately. I’m not totally sure where I stand on Baxcalibur. On one hand, it seems like it would be broken on account of how strong it can be as a set up sweeper. However, I would argue that if we are able to adapt to the metagame, one where Kyurem is running around, the latter of which is even more versatile and it moves and sets, then I feel like we could adapt to a meta-game with Baxcalibur too. Like with Palafin and Waterpon these two are pretty similar in terms of how they impact team builder. Although as a point towards Baxcalibur you can’t be surprised by it pulling out a surprise, choice specs, or choice scarf set the way you would see with Kyurem.

A Pokémon, I am OK with leaving banned is Zamazenta. Even though it’s probably not broken in a metagame without Tera I feel like we could adapt to fighting without it. The tier wouldn’t be destabilized if we didn’t have it. Dragapult is probably in the same camp.
 
My personal list of mons that can return/retest IF tera gets banned:

Absolute Yes:
:regieleki: :shedinja: :melmetal:

Regieleki without coverage is 100 times more manageable, in fact, it would most likely see niche play alongside Electric Terrain and mons to bait out Ground types, which i personally like the insentive on that type of skilled play. Shedinja without Tera would pretty much see lil to no play. Melmetal imo would be one of my personal favorites to return, the impact it may have is yet to be seen, but i argue it would be a very solid mon on the tier for many balanced oriented teams, which is the type of direction we are going with the tera banning. Wheather it's a Choice Band set or an Assault Vest set, it would be amazing.

Tempting ones:
:kingambit: :espathra: :zamazenta:
These ones i hold a personal grudge to them due to how polarizing they can be, however just because i have skill issues doesn't mean they don't deserve a shot. Kingambit can be easier to manage with a firmly stamped quadruple fighting weakness, as well as weaknesses to Fire and Ground. However, it can be a menace in the late game. Espathra is arguably the one of the 3 that could return without much hazzle, without much coverage, it would have a hard time breaking through steels like Ferrothorn, Heatran, Corviknight, and if tera was unbanned, Melmetal, it also takes a while for it to be truly deadly with stored power anyways, as it requires multiple boost to really get going. Zamazenta could return, in fact, this would bring another answer to Kingambit, the issue would lie on Zamazenta itself, as its a mon that can be irritating to deal with thanks to IronPress. Sure, it can't no longer changed Teras making it much easier to handle, but it is still a set with dangerous potential to swing the game in one's favor.

Some stinkers i keep hearing:
:Gholdengo:
I keep hearing this one over and over, the main argument seems to be that since Kingambit eould be unbanned, it would be fine, all while that is partially true, it's only partially. One most players will pre plan on ways to beat Kingambit, either by nailing the switchin with Focus Blast, or double switchin into it woth mons like Great Tusk. Tapu Lele also blocks Sucker Punch, alloeing dengo to attack it without fear of said priority move. Once Gambit is gone, Dengo would be free to deny hazard removal, and while I wouldn't be against the Kingambit vs Gholdengo dynamic, as I think it can reward skillful play, I am not a fan of making the game feel like youre walking in a room full of legos. Hazards stacking would most likely see a copium amount of usage, amd sticky webs would legit be a viable strategy now.

:annihilape:
This one I've heard it rarely, but heard it nonetheless. This imo shouldn't be allowed, Gholdengo has a much better chance to return than this. It single handedly kills stall, and most bulky centered teams. Any halfway passive team just isn't handling this on the opposing, which would lead into offensive teams to be the prefered playstyle, of which, aren't those teams the dominant ones in a tera meta? And if so, why even bother ban tera if offense is going to be just as dominant, if not more? Simply put, no.

:sneasler:
Idk who here thinks this is balanced, 120 speed + unburden denies speed control outside of priority and the meme trick room. Its also anything but passivez, 130 atk and an arceus send stab combination in poison fighting, only resisted by ghost, of which struggle with night slash. That alone is good enough for a suspect test in my eyes, but then there is signature move, the FUCK was Gamefreak thinking here!? Yeah' lets make this move have 50% chance to deal not one, not two, but three dfferent status effects. Let this guy suffer and pay for his sins in the hell's pit that is the land of the dragons and dinosaurs in ND Ubers.

:palafin-hero:
This is another popular I keep hearing, and I do see why. However I don't think it would be healthy for the game overall as a 160 atk water mon under rain sound terrifying, and Jet Punch allows to bypass those mons faster than it. And yes, there is ways around water stab, but even then, nah. As cool as it would be for Palafin to replace Barraskewda in rain, its best not to.



I know it is way to early to be talking about this, after all, we havent even ban tera yet. But it's always interesting to see what the community wants to see from this game. Anyways, thats what I gotta say for now.
 
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Some stinkers i keep hearing:
:Gholdengo:
I keep hearing this one over and over, the main argument seems to be that since Kingambit eould be unbanned, it would be fine, all while that is partially true, it's only partially. One most players will pre plan on ways to beat Kingambit, either by nailing the switchin with Focus Blast, or double switchin into it woth mons like Great Tusk. Tapu Lele also blocks Sucker Punch, alloeing dengo to attack it without fear of said priority move. Once Gambit is gone, Dengo would be free to deny hazard removal, and while I wouldn't be against the Kingambit vs Gholdengo dynamic, as I think it can reward skillful play, I am not a fan of making the game feel like youre walking in a room full of legos. Hazards stacking would most likely see a copium amount of usage, amd sticky webs would legit be a viable strategy now.

I keep thinking this as well, people obviously blame Tera first and foremost for it being as uncomfortable a presence as it was, but what people don't bring up when talking about freeing it is even with Tera banned, it'd still have access to it's old bag of tricks, and Z-Moves.

Whether it's fully invested in Sp. Atk or a bulky setup build, a Ghostium Z set can straight up nuke most of the would-be Defoggers that in theory would force it to switch.




With Z Moves:

Landorus

252 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 321-378 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 397-468 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 274-324 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 205-243 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 364-430 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 274-324 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gliscor

0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 274-324 (77.8 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 412-486 (117 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Moltres

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 378-445 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Moltres: 357-420 (92.9 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Zapdos

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 360-424 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Tapu Koko

0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 280-330 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 418-493 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tornados

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 360-424 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0 SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 360-424 (99.4 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

And keep in mind, these are just assuming a Calm Mind setup, it can use Nasty Plot instead or just run any Sp. Atk investment at all and turn all of these into OHKOs. Just as important, with no or little Sp. Atk investment necessary, Speed EVs can also be used to creep past the answers and get two attacks in before being removed.

That, and both Trick as well as Thunder Wave can cripple a lot of the switch-ins that would try to remove hazards after forcing it out, both listed and unlisted.

I know lots of people want to open the tier up with some of the new mons that've been kicked thanks to Tera, and Gholdengo has some nice expiremental sets that can be fun to toy around with, but I personally agree that I don't think it's worth dropping without a retest given it'll inevitably centralize hazards and has more answers to removal than just Tera.

It may still not be broken even with what it has listed, but I don't think it's worth an immediate drop, and if it were to be added back, hopefully retested rather than simply re-added.
 
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As we are talking abt who would be unbanned if Tera goes

:melmetal: as a Trick room player, Since Glastrier won't be useful anymore if Tera is banned, of course I find it balanced. 143 attack Choice band with Jirachi chances of flinching though, at least things like Iron moth can Offensively check it out of TR, if it's not very bulky AV.
:regieleki:,:shedinja:,:terapagos:
of course, they are much more manageable, beware for specs Rising voltage eleki now though.
:kingambit: No. it still hits like a truck with supreme overlord, has Knock and pursuit, and can even go with gaddam Fightinium Z to get out of Ferrothorn (who can twave it at best anyways). Run speed to outspeed Tran, or bulk to live insane hits. Sucker mindgames are unhealthy and Stopping offense can be done through something else.
:gholdengo: oh hell nah, and I'm not saying that as a drain punch Ursaluna player. "it will calm down offens" just as it will sit on defense! defensive Z ghold sets take 40% from knock if one is not an offensive dark type, sits on pex, clod, thorn, bliss, and much much more. It is infinetely better than aegislash for it is faster, can hit and take a hit in the same turn, has recover, Twave, and is not forced to run a specific move on all of its sets.
:sneasler: I am happy to hav seen doubt on this one, It gained Throat chop in DLC2, I am not eager to run covert cloak physdef crobat for it, and that's if it doesn't run acrobatics. But no Chili dewd, Trick room is not meme
:espathra: well this will just become worse Polteageist because it cannot break past bulky steels and there are a shitlot in the tier. IT will sit in UUBL for the rest of the gen.
:annihilape: frankly I haven't seen much of this Poké's bs, prob gon be banned if the meta turns to defense, which is not gonna be the case if ghold is unbanned, but offensively it's checkable, Lele, zapdos, moltres, more just make it suffer for its 90 base speed.
:palafin: I am not a fan of this one, it's fast even at zero form, outspeeding leads like excadrill and Lando-T and flip turning on them, and when in Hero form it's basically unnerfed Slaking, like, are y'all sure about this? + it gets the buff of Rain, Band wave crash with an attack far bigger than the good ol Floatzel.
:zamazenta: pls no guys not only does it not check waterpon Defensively, it was banned as an offensive threat with idbp, band, and coverage shenanigans. Tera was part of it, sure, but without tera it was already too strong.
:dragapult: what no this thing sure doesn't get tera blast ghost anymore, something I didn't even think of as broken, its brokenness imo was mainly a physical attacker immune to intimidate with a nastily Powerful Z ghost that could be boosted by dd. tera ban just makes it even more uncheckable if you ask me.
:Roaring-Moon: 252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO where switchin?
:Gouging-Fire: No? ofc it cant tera Fairy out of garchomp anymore, it still has that humongous bulk to get 3 DDs on anything defensive.
:Ogerpon-Hearthflame: this thing, while unable to brute force trough Physdef Moltres, still has mold breaker to eat stall alive, and Heatran, and "bulky fire types" might not want to face one if it has that one chanc e of running stomping tantrum. Ferro cannot tera to twave it anymore. + offensive Spiker that kills like every Spinner or defogger ever (might wanna try Rindo berry Blastoise)
:Darkrai: Tera didn't make it broken, most used Tera was Like Poison, Z hypno was far more broken.
:Baxcalibur: yea now it won't Tera out of Mlop, it will just take the hit and Scale shot Back, KO, and get a speed boost. Defo broken under alolatales veil n snow. Crazy sweeper anyways that lives hits a crazy sweeper of its caliber rlly shouldn't
:Walking-Wake: Didn't see it at play, no judgement.
:Deoxys-Speed: Best suicide lead smh, but also Modest + NP + psycho boost + psychium Z + spikes and suddenly Blissey Loses to that
:Zygarde: Safe predic: you can't guess if it's gonna be Band or coil-glare-sub and it's gonna go in less than a week.

now on the topic of Tera itself, of course it's an offensive mechanic, just like Z moves, except it has defensive yutility, on offensive mons. Tera keeps old STABs but not old Resistances or immunities, so while it is difficult to out-defense with Tera, it is fairly easy to Out-offense with Tera. Tera can effectively be great defensively, but not particularly on the long term. Ferrothorn can Tera dragon to twave Zardy but then it doesn't answer Raging bolt Safely enough, for example. Goes to show how it was designed for Short 4v4 double Battles. However why send Ferro on Zardy in the first place?

This is just my Honest Opinion on Tera and Unbans
 
But no Chili dewd, Trick room is not meme
Trick Room players be like:
this-brand-new-indie-horror-comes-to-pokemon-showdown-this-v0-tuddpp74ex3b1.png
 

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