Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

[haunted paper]

After playing and watching a lot of games, I wanted to share my thoughts on the current meta posts shifts.
Rising Threats

- Scizor got a little bit better this time around. It honestly might be a metagame defining pokemon due to its' performances. Bulky defog sets have gotten better due to how well Scizor can handle a myriad of threats and forcing them out to get a defog off (Okidogi AV, non-BD Azumarill, and Comfey). SD variants are still very threatening and are great in the late game thanks to HDB; not much can really take on +2 BP, CC, or Knock/Bug Bite. Choice Band sets allow for a lot of immediate hole punching; bulky banded sets are the most difficult to handle due to longevity and constant pivoting opportunities. Overall: Scizor is quite capable of adapting to a team's needs and is very splashable, offensive sets are its' best sets and can threaten most of the meta casually, and it might just be one the best mons in the current metagame due to how easy it is to use in combination with how good its' performance is.

- Lokix is a very dominant pokemon in the Offense Department. Lokix has HO surrounding itself unlike any other pokemon: First Impression + Tinted Lens is the main reason for this, but at the same time other sets have popped up. Goro Yagami's black glasses set with knock off + sucker punch + protect + SD is one of the sets that has lifted off and gained traction lately: a few weaknesses to point out is finding good ways to set up, lack of splashability, and difficulties in getting past fast physically bulky threats like Cobalion; at the same time it has proven to be great at spamming STAB and not worrying about over predictions or speed control too much. Lokix going for knock + u-turn is really good and honestly under appreciated, getting rid of problematic items (rocky helmet or HDB) for sweepers and hole punchers is great while also providing switch-in opportunities with chip damage; this tactic proves best against slower teams that have been gaining popularity lately (lot less scarf Hoopa-U's). The biggest problem though for Lokix overall is the lack of splashability on teams and having to have the right team mates to make the best use out of whatever set it uses.

- Quaquaval hasn't been talked about a lot but it sure is used a lot and whenever I use it I'm just glad Zapdos is not around. This is a great pokemon that fits well on teams yet not a lot of players prepare for even though it can do a lot offensively and defensively. Rocky Helmet Spin sets are honestly great and fits well on teams that need hazard control; its' not passive thanks to Moxie + Aqua Step (or Flip Turn) + CC, and it has great longevity thanks to rocks resist + roost; being able to check Excadrill, Lokix, Scizor, and Greninja is fantastic considering how dangerous these threats are and the same time it can pull off passive damage against physical attackers with rocky helmet chip from time to time if need be. Offensive sets still prove to be good if not better with Zapdos being gone, the only problem is the lack of solid coverage; still, the bulk it has makes it difficult to offensively check while it snowballs out of control with aqua step + moxie. Overall, Quaquaval is impactful to the tier while being consistent and splashable on teams.

- Serperior is a great snowball pokemon but its' not perfect. Bulk + Speed + Contrary Leaf Storm combination is the main selling point for Serperior but the lack of immediate power and coverage is what people focus on the most. But I don't think it needs either due to the fact that it would be too good with one or the other. What it excels at is hole punching and scouting (if a sub or screens set), it might pull off sweeping but it doesn't need to be consistent otherwise it'd be broken; and I think more players are realizing these tactics and making the most use out of it. The bulk really comes in clutch in helping it punch early holes against slower and weaker teams all the while, the opponent is revealing a lot each time they try to check it offensively or defensively. Screen sets tend to capitalize on the bulk + speed combo the best and can prove to be highly rewarding against non-defog teams. Meanwhile, sub + leech seed sets offer safe switch-in opportunities while getting chip on what mon the opponent wants to use to check your serp. On a side note, glare is pretty good but its' moreover dependent on forced switch-ins and a lack of a way of handling status. Overall, the bulk makes the difference, don't sleep on it.

- A fantastic hole puncher that capitalizes on the bulk + power combination. Most of the meta is threatened by by its' STAB combination and while although it does rely on tera to get past certain mons like toxapex, those mons are not used on teams often enough (nor is there a lot of them) for it to be a bad thing per se. While although Rotom-W is rising, its' bulky sets are the ones that are rising and that can be somewhat of a good thing due to the fact that its' probably only carrying volt switch to threaten azu offensively which isn't OHKOing at all but at the same time it is probably carrying will-o-wisp and is a lot harder to chip down thanks to pain split, but it can't switch-in more than once on banded play roughs. Not much is threatening Azumarill offensively or defensively and that can allow early hole punching to be a lot easier.

- Comfey relies heavily on Tera ground sometimes but it is really hard to stop and check. Solid mon for picking off weakened teams or snow ballers that are weak to kiss / giga drain.

- Last threat but honestly good. My biggest problem with this mon is gunk shot not being 100% accurate but at the same time, threatening poison with gunk is really solid. Being at +2 speed after set-up and resisting Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, First Impression, E-Speed, and Comfey's healing moves is honestly a lot more threatening than people realize because if your team is weakened, how do you stop the sweep? Resisting most forms of priority is very intimidating for the opponent when your mon is at +2 speed. While it does struggle against fat ground types (like hippo), these mons are not super common and can be chipped down or (if you're running iron head) flinched down. Revavroom might be one of the best at taking advantage of open opportunities for set-up currently, especially due to the fact that it can be threatening in the mid-game and not just late game.

Pokemon that got better but still aren't top tier

- Pecharunt is honestly a very annoying mon to go up against defensively. It's a very solid blanket to almost every physical attacker and super solid at spreading status. The best mon for doubling in on threats due to how well it takes advantage of its' titanic bulk with STABs, nasty plot, and foul play. Really great at pivoting with parting shot too. It always seems to have something for everyone. Biggest weakness that is also super common: knock off. Honestly, if hazards weren't everywhere, it'd be a top tier defensive power house.

- This is going to be a future threat. It got a lot better with Zapdos being gone yet at the same time, not much checks it defensively or offensively. Only resisting agua jet in forms of priority is a point against it, sure, but I don't see that being a problem in the future. The only thing holding it back is the reliance on tera.

- This mon honestly got better and is underrated. Not that great at setting up rocks but is super great at hole punching and solid at late game sweeping. Choice Band is probably the best set on it and there's a good reason why: the lack of a solid defensive switch-in. The 50/50s it brings to the table can be a double edged sword due to how common its' weaknesses are but getting the answer right is very rewarding due to the high power it has and how easy it can pick up KOs right off the bat. Biggest problem is choosing +speed or +attack nature: on one hand + attack means better e-speed opportunities in combination with tera or chip, on the other hand +speed means less threats out speed you and less reliant on tera.

- Dangerous booster energy pokemon that appreciates zapdos leaving, biggest problem: relies on chip.

- Mamoswine is another underrated threat that is honestly great at picking up KOs in the early to mid game. Ice Shard is very valuable against Ogerpons, lot of common fast threats (latios and serp), and frail threats on the defensive side like scarf Hoopa-U. It's a good deterrent against most snow ball pokemon and is one of the best threats against stall and slower teams. Rotom-W has to watch out for Trail Blaze and Freeze Dry, so that isn't a great answer to it sometimes. Once its' in safely, it's hard to regain momentum.

- An annoying set-up sweeper but not impossible to deal with. Bulky dark types are Polteageist's biggest weakness, especially Mandibuzz. Really great mon that can handle sucker punches surprisingly well by just going for strength sap, how annoying. But the biggest strength for this mon might just be how easy it can find set up opportunities on HO and volt-turn balance teams. Kudos to Goro Yagami for making a solid team with it for Cheryl to use (I used it too haha).

- This is honestly really hard to kill (especially with tera predicts or late game tera) and is a fantastic blanket check to over half the tier depending on the EV spread. Its' a solid defensive pivot that can be made most useful on doubles or nabbing a quick toxic before switching out. Very annoying to deal with when paired up with Torn-T.

- Best hazard setter in the game but also a little too passive sometimes. I'm starting to explore offensive sets and scarf aren't that bad. The massive movepool it has is really great for surprise KOs, a lot of mons in this tier are x4 weak to something that Mew has that are still good moves like U-Turn, Flare Blitz / Fire Punch, and Earthquake.

Pokemon that got worse

- Lot of common weaknesses that are easily exploited. It's difficult to find a good EV spread for Hydrapple without missing out on bulk or power for an important threat; not enough bulk and U-Turn is either KO'ing or getting off too much chip, and not enough power means missed KO opportunity. The more choiced locked users (especially scarf) there are, the better it performs on the wrong choiced lock move; it really likes working off forced switches. Relies heavily on tera to last in the long run, otherwise double correctly and constantly.

- No Zapdos and the rise of the water and grass types put this mon's usage down a bit. Still a solid Torn-T check, appreciates Heatran being around so less grass knot.

- Volt-Turn, Knock, and Power Whip is everywhere. Really hard to use. Not that solid against the new set-up sweepers on the block and struggles against the old ones (like Scizor). Great Trick Room user tho.

- Very awkward mon, here's why: 4mss on moves and items. It wants Power Whip for the powerful water and ground types, Knock b/c boots and rocky helmet, Close Combat for Heatran and Cobalion, U-Turn for momentum, Jungle Healing for Para/Burn/Poison spam, and set-up moves on non-choiced sets; it also wants Scarf for surprise factor against Hoopa-U (scarf), Latios, Greninja (ice beam variants), and Torn-T, as well as Band for immediate power or Boots for longevity. It is really hard to choose what to go for this mon and it is not easy to use considering how badly it can be punished half the time for the wrong choice. It is still a solid blanket check for many top tier threats and great against stall tho.

- Not enough power for scarf sets and not enough speed for specs sets, nor enough bulk for both sets. Kinda hard to use sometimes due to how easy it is to check it and predict it. Heatran does it no favors too.

New Drops

- Called it. Solid blanket checker but not that great otherwise due to common weaknesses. Still a solid magma storm user.

- Not that good yet. I think its because people (including myself) aren't sure if spikes or iron defense sets are better and how to use them best. It's proven to be helpful on balance teams but its hard to say if its decent on HO or not. Spikes sets tend to be easy to abuse (even for physical attackers) and iron defense sets lack a way of taking advantage of free turns in the early game. Still, iron defense sets might be better due to well they work against physical sweepers and forcing teras.


Sorry for the long post.

 

[Catcus]

It's been a few days since shifts and I wanted to give my thoughts on who won and who lost this time

Winners

- Wash is probably the biggest winner of the shifts overall imo. It lost it's biggest competition as a bulky electric in zapdos, its great against heatran, It threatens skarm, can will-o scizor and is decent for weavile. Levitate is more valuable in a spikes meta as well. it feels super good rn and is pretty splashable

- Having to deal with static less is great for it, and beating weavile is a super valuable trait. Ho liked the shifts as a whole too which is great for it. Clod and skarm are kinda annoying but otherwise it's doing great.

- You no longer have to hope you don't run into zapdos. you're also no longer forced into knock off and can choose to run cc if you want. Revenging weavile is great too.

- Can fill a similar role to zap defensively and offensively benefits from zap leaving too.

- Zap was pretty much the only thing keeping gapdos unviable so it can do pretty well now as a scarfer.

- Can eat skarm for breakfast. Also appreciates zap leaving.

- This mon hasn't slowed down at all. It's good for weavile, and can annoy skarm if it chooses with knock, tera, and if you want to be more extreme, taunt. it's still fantastic and still super scary to deal with

- using mew here to represent HO as a whole doing better. zapdos leaving helps many physical attackers, giving ho a ton of new tools. The tier's also a bit more chaotic as people figure out the new meta which also gives it a boost.

- I think the main draw of grasspon is the speed so trading zap for heatran is nice(plus it has tantrum if you really want to murder tran). Fast encore as always is nice against HO too.

-similar thing to gapdos. Zap was a big issue so it's a bit better now.
- one less hurricane user :). sure weavile and more scizor are annoying, but apple's always been one of the better tera users so it isn't as bad for it as you'd think as you'd think.
- heatran is annoying but losing zap is big and it really annoys skarm
- skarm and heatran haven't really slowed it down and it enjoys more ho. sd sets have been gaining traction too.

Losers

- has to drop a utility move for fighting coverage now. scizor gettin better hurts too.

- skarm is super annoying. At this point drill loses to a lot of our hazard setters and is less threatening offensively than it used to be.

- hasn't really gotten worse, but zapdos leaving heavily reduces its splashability. clodsire can also annoy sludge bomb sets.
- weavile is really annoying for none scarf sets, and scarf still has to fear ice shard. It also gained a new check in heatran

- the shifts gave us two 4x grass resists, an unaware mon, a faster ice type, blissey, and an improved Scizor. this mon was already struggling pre-shifts and is a whole lot worse after.

- similar to serp where the drops and improved mons hurt it a ton. Weavile is a better ice type physical attacker, skarm and rotom limit offensive power, and scizor just kills it before it can move.

- the only match-up it was used for just left. It'll realistically still have some niche as a stealth rocker who beats torn but it got so much worse. biggest loser easily
- it isn't as hurt by zap leaving as rhyp is, but its still much worse after losing one of it's best match-ups

- I feel like one of the biggest reason to use this mon was that rock cudgel could beat zapdos without making contact, so losing that match-up isn't the best. Weavile Is annoying too, as is scizor getting better. It'll still be ok obviously but it is a bit worse

- Blissey exists now lmao

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Very awkward mon, here's why: 4mss on moves and items. It wants Power Whip for the powerful water and ground types, Knock b/c boots and rocky helmet, Close Combat for Heatran and Cobalion, U-Turn for momentum, Jungle Healing for Para/Burn/Poison spam, and set-up moves on non-choiced sets; it also wants Scarf for surprise factor against Hoopa-U (scarf), Latios, Greninja (ice beam variants), and Torn-T, as well as Band for immediate power or Boots for longevity. It is really hard to choose what to go for this mon and it is not easy to use considering how badly it can be punished half the time for the wrong choice. It is still a solid blanket check for many top tier threats and great against stall tho.

put this at the bottom since I have a lot of thoughts on it. Zarude does not have anything close to 4MSS and it hasn't gotten much worse. Zarude usually runs the same 4 moves (jungle healing, sd, pw and knock) with either boots or leftovers, with some smaller options like drain punch, trailblaze and bulk-up seeing occasional use. +2 Zarude is super scary and does good damage even into resists. It still abuses tera super well with tera poison flipping a ton of match-ups and stab knock making great progress no matter what. Scarf has been kinda niche for a bit since you can't really abuse the defensive utility, and I don't think band has been explored (nor do I think it would work that well). The whole thing about not knowing what to use on it feels more like it's coming from an unfamiliarity with the mon. Also more of nitpick but you didn't mention why you think it got worse and just listed things that you don't like about it. In terms of if it's worse or not, weavile is annoying, but that's pretty much it in terms of new bad match-ups, and Rotom getting a lot better is great for it.

 

[haunted paper]

Also more of nitpick but you didn't mention why you think it got worse and just listed things that you don't like about it.

It wants Power Whip for the powerful water and ground types, Knock b/c boots and rocky helmet, Close Combat for Heatran and Cobalion, U-Turn for momentum, Jungle Healing for Para/Burn/Poison spam, and set-up moves on non-choiced sets; it also wants Scarf for surprise factor against Hoopa-U (scarf), Latios, Greninja (ice beam variants), and Torn-T, as well as Band for immediate power or Boots for longevity. It is really hard to choose what to go for this mon and it is not easy to use considering how badly it can be punished half the time for the wrong choice.

Also, I didn't just say bad things about it:

It is still a solid blanket check for many top tier threats and great against stall tho.

I didn't state out right how the awkwardness made it worse, but it is implied. Also, I couldn't go over everything because the post would be too long and there was stuff I forgot. Take for instance:

In terms of if it's worse or not, weavile is annoying, but that's pretty much it in terms of new bad match-ups

It's a good point that I neglected, as well as Skarmory being a new great check and Zapdos (a solid check) leaving.

Scarf has been kinda niche for a bit since you can't really abuse the defensive utility,

It still has that, just can't go for jungle healing. Like, what it can tank from the pivot and SD sets, it can still tank with the scarf set, just has to be more careful of hazards and status. It's honestly solid for a lot of faster threats (a lot of which are really good in the current meta and even past meta) that would otherwise give it a hard time. I ran it on udongirl's choice spam team and it worked for me just fine either way. Basically, it's a choice between longevity against slower teams and not being outsped by faster teams, as well as depending on what's popping up more. Like with that choice spam team, I kept running into faster teams that loved to spam Torn-T and Scarf Hoopa-U, so I ran scarf to have easier match-ups.

I don't think band has been explored (nor do I think it would work that well).

Well, good thing I know about it (and I'm not unfamiliar with it). Choice Band Zarude is under explored in the top tier part of UU (like high ladder and big tours), yeah, but it is used from time to time on low to mid ladder, which is where I first ran into it. I liked it a lot and used it to see how it'd perform. It can do a lot and catch guaranteed KOs right off the bat against fatter balance teams. So, if you struggle to get a SD off, it will tend to fail getting KOs (which happens) against a lot of fat mons that love to abuse Zarude like Heatran spamming magma storm.
252 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 308-366 (78.1 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, that's from a SD set calc prior to set up. Sure, Slowking can't do anything back on the offense end but, it can chilly reception out to a check, and because of regen, Slowking might get back to full pretty easy.
252 Atk Choice Band Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 462-546 (117.2 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's more examples like this, that point out the stark differences between Choice Band and all other sets. It has it's problems (one of the biggest being committing to a move), yes, but it does have really good niches.

I think you could've flipped my words instead by saying that the fact that Zarude has all these options is what makes it better actually. That would've been solid in my opinion. Take for instance how it seems like I'm defending Zarude throughout this entire post, haha. I still think it's awkward and tough to use tho.

Catcus you made a solid post though, I enjoyed the read.

 

[Catcus]

Also, I didn't just say bad things about it:

I was not saying you didn't say anything good about it. I'm saying labeling it as a "mon that got worse" isn't fair if you don't mention how the drops actually affected the mon. The most you mentioned was saying it needed cc for heatran(it doesn't, knock is already pretty crippling for heatran). Also saying it's a "solid blanket check for many top tier threats" is pretty vague.

It's a good point that I neglected, as well as Skarmory being a new great check and Zapdos (a solid check) leaving.

skarm is notable, yeah. I wouldn't say it's a massive nerf or anything, you realistically just knock it and switch out, but it's an annoying roadblock. Saying Zapdos was a solid check though is pretty wild though. One of zarude's best traits was being a physical attacker that could take on zapdos without static crippling it for the rest of the game. Zarude wasn't nerfed with it leaving or anything since we got another contact punisher that it's arguably worse against the mon, but saying zapdos beat zarude is just kinda wrong.

It still has that, just can't go for jungle healing. Like, what it can tank from the pivot and SD sets, it can still tank with the scarf set, just has to be more careful of hazards and status. It's honestly solid for a lot of faster threats (a lot of which are really good in the current meta and even past meta) that would otherwise give it a hard time. I ran it on udongirl's choice spam team and it worked for me just fine either way. Basically, it's a choice between longevity against slower teams and not being outsped by faster teams, as well as depending on what's popping up more. Like with that choice spam team, I kept running into faster teams that loved to spam Torn-T and Scarf Hoopa-U, so I ran scarf to have easier match-ups.

I wasn't really saying it was was bad or anything, just more niche compared to SD and our other scarfers. It lacks a lot of the power other scarfers like hoopa and dogi have, and losing healing and leftovers/boots really cuts into it's longevity. It can still use some of it's defensive utility, . It's still decent but it's pretty niche compared to other sets(plus I'd argue that gapdos is a better scarfer if want one that beats other faster threats)

Well, good thing I know about it (and I'm not unfamiliar with it). Choice Band Zarude is under explored in the top tier part of UU (like high ladder and big tours), yeah, but it is used from time to time on low to mid ladder, which is where I first ran into it. I liked it a lot and used it to see how it'd perform. It can do a lot and catch guaranteed KOs right off the bat against fatter balance teams. So, if you struggle to get a SD off, it will tend to fail getting KOs (which happens) against a lot of fat mons that love to abuse Zarude like Heatran spamming magma storm.
252 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 308-366 (78.1 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, that's from a SD set calc prior to set up. Sure, Slowking can't do anything back on the offense end but, it can chilly reception out to a check, and because of regen, Slowking might get back to full pretty easy.
252 Atk Choice Band Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 462-546 (117.2 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's more examples like this, that point out the stark differences between Choice Band and all other sets. It has it's problems (one of the biggest being committing to a move), yes, but it does have really good niches.

Low ladder uses a lot of weird mons. it's not really that good of a way to determine if a mon is good or not. I'd argue that sd is better at taking on slowking since Jungle healing means it can hard switch-in with fearing thunder wave and scald burns. It also feels like you're misinterpreting how sd zarude plays. It's goal isn't really to be a sweeper but more of a win-con with good midgame utility, kinda like skeledirge. Realistically, improving what is already one of your best match-ups isn't worth the loss of longevity/status resilience.

Catcus you made a solid post though, I enjoyed the read.

Yours was good too. It's nice to see other people's opinions even if I don't agree with some of them

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Spikes ogerpon-teal is smth i want to discuss... its odd but its smth i want to talk about. While i see spikes on the analysis ive yet to see ogerpon-teal actually use spikes

Why Spikes? What are you even dropping?

I decided to drop encore! Shocker (To some) while some may be calling me dumb as shit but I believe in spikes ogerpon-teal because it brings a lot of value, lets look at what can spin.... exca, mandibuzz, and that is basically it...

How good are spikes for you to be dropping encore, a great move for it to have and a big reason why one would use it?

Spikes allow me to force progress, this is a way to say no to chesnaught, gligar, skarmory, and sandy shocks and use smth that can force progress... unlike chesnaught and gligar who are passive with knock off ogerpon-teal is instead a fast mon, someone who can also pivot out and dish out heavy damage with ivy cudgel

Do you have replays?

Sure..

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2223009360-zlluogeg7wkoleyxtosg5vvyw8k2wzspw While this game was short this shows how spikes couldve added up.. the heatran was a weird variant but this showed how well spikes can allow the team to apply pressure, with spikes as well

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2223004758-wkxsprytrqcjwa287b5dmf6x7wpedoepw?p2 This game certainly couldve been longer but spikes would add up against bellibolt, chesnaught, and potentially torn t who want to switch in, this also allows mons like weavile to click buttons much more freely

I will add more in the future...

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I want to ask about

People say azumarill isnt the crap mon that it is, but to my knowledge and from watching tours its a mon that really struggles. Curious what others think about it. I am not gonna post another discussion about it cuz i alr did in my nom, but to my knowledge azu has continued to see no usage over it

Do people use it? if so what makes it stand out in this meta

to C

1st of all azu has no usage in UUBD and UU homefield to my knowledge, it lacks almost any usage and is often passed by to my knowledge by many players, this is smth ive seen when building, laddering, and watching tours

Usage from week 6 onwards alongside the replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-789407
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-789507
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-789617
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786715
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-787119
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-787283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-787342
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-787535
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-788383
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-788614
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785860
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785991?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786011
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786231
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786306
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786392
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786402
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-786495
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-784785
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-784806
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-784930
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-784964
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785006
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785047
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785086
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785094
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785287
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-785389

+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Tornadus-Therian | 23 | 39.66% | 39.13% |
| 2 | Excadrill | 22 | 37.93% | 45.45% |
| 3 | Cobalion | 19 | 32.76% | 57.89% |
| 4 | Okidogi | 18 | 31.03% | 61.11% |
| 5 | Zapdos | 16 | 27.59% | 75.00% |
| 6 | Hoopa-Unbound | 14 | 24.14% | 35.71% |
| 7 | Lokix | 14 | 24.14% | 42.86% |
| 8 | Hydrapple | 13 | 22.41% | 38.46% |
| 9 | Scizor | 12 | 20.69% | 33.33% |
| 10 | Slowking | 10 | 17.24% | 20.00% |
| 11 | Greninja | 8 | 13.79% | 50.00% |
| 12 | Latios | 8 | 13.79% | 75.00% |
| 13 | Skeledirge | 8 | 13.79% | 25.00% |
| 14 | Rhyperior | 8 | 13.79% | 50.00% |
| 15 | Ogerpon-Cornerstone | 7 | 12.07% | 28.57% |
| 16 | Toxapex | 6 | 10.34% | 83.33% |
| 17 | Serperior | 6 | 10.34% | 33.33% |
| 18 | Tinkaton | 6 | 10.34% | 50.00% |
| 19 | Thundurus-Therian | 5 | 8.62% | 0.00% |
| 20 | Hydreigon | 5 | 8.62% | 20.00% |
| 21 | Zarude | 5 | 8.62% | 80.00% |
| 22 | Milotic | 5 | 8.62% | 60.00% |
| 23 | Sandy Shocks | 5 | 8.62% | 60.00% |
| 24 | Pecharunt | 5 | 8.62% | 60.00% |
| 25 | Mamoswine | 4 | 6.90% | 75.00% |
| 26 | Quaquaval | 4 | 6.90% | 25.00% |
| 27 | Rotom-Wash | 4 | 6.90% | 75.00% |
| 28 | Metagross | 4 | 6.90% | 25.00% |
| 29 | Gardevoir | 3 | 5.17% | 100.00% |
| 30 | Gligar | 3 | 5.17% | 66.67% |
| 31 | Arcanine-Hisui | 3 | 5.17% | 66.67% |
| 32 | Enamorus-Therian | 3 | 5.17% | 66.67% |
| 33 | Mew | 3 | 5.17% | 0.00% |
| 34 | Gastrodon | 3 | 5.17% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Polteageist | 3 | 5.17% | 0.00% |
| 36 | Keldeo-Resolute | 3 | 5.17% | 33.33% |
| 37 | Donphan | 3 | 5.17% | 100.00% |
| 38 | Gastrodon-East | 2 | 3.45% | 100.00% |
| 39 | Ogerpon | 2 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
| 40 | Mimikyu | 2 | 3.45% | 0.00% |
| 41 | Mandibuzz | 2 | 3.45% | 100.00% |
| 42 | Ninetales-Alola | 2 | 3.45% | 0.00% |
| 43 | Comfey | 2 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
| 44 | Iron Thorns | 2 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
| 45 | Fezandipiti | 2 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
| 46 | Suicune | 2 | 3.45% | 100.00% |
| 47 | Empoleon | 2 | 3.45% | 100.00% |
| 48 | Hawlucha | 2 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
| 49 | Bellibolt | 2 | 3.45% | 100.00% |
| 50 | Tyranitar | 2 | 3.45% | 100.00% |
| 51 | Slowbro-Galar | 2 | 3.45% | 0.00% |
| 52 | Jirachi | 2 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
| 53 | Slither Wing | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 54 | Dugtrio-Alola | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 55 | Salamence | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 56 | Cyclizar | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 57 | Hippowdon | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 58 | Krookodile | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 59 | Lilligant-Hisui | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 60 | Ninetales | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 61 | Reuniclus | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 62 | Umbreon | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 63 | Cresselia | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 64 | Espeon | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 65 | Iron Jugulis | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 66 | Iron Leaves | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 67 | Pincurchin | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 68 | Basculegion-F | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 69 | Grimmsnarl | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 70 | Revavroom | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 71 | Chesnaught | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 72 | Sinistcha | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 73 | Haxorus | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 74 | Indeedee | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Drifblim | 1 | 1.72% | 0.00% |
| 76 | Forretress | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 77 | Chandelure | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 78 | Noivern | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Zarude-Dada | 1 | 1.72% | 100.00% |

Of all mons to not get usage azu kinda sticks out... its a b tier pokemon with no usage to its name. But why do i think its bad?

1st its bulk is meh, without av it kinda takes shits kinda bad and even with sitrus or av then it gets into dmg problems, it kinda has to have some form of progress making and twilight spoke of CB. another issue is how prediction reliant it is, why use azu when hoopa, dogi, specs gren, latios, cornerstone, tera fairy gard are pretty nice breakers. It just feels like it sticks out like a sore thumb in the VR list

2nd is that even if it gets a turn right its vulnurable to hazards, which means even with a spike up or taking rocks dmg it means often times its gonna have to rely on aqua jet to force smth out or lose potentially to smth willing to stay in or having tera to bully it. Zarude can switch in on the more likely liquidation, or smth like slowking can switch in on play rough once and pivot to a mon, rotom-w can scout as well and volt switch or WoW, pecharunt can switch in, recover or hit it with a poison move, gastrodon has storm drain, hydrapple can prob live a play rough and switch out and regen it off... sure if you guess right you do a lot of dmg but why use such a mon that is high risk with a meh reward

3rd is other than CB it doesnt have much going for it.. even if it gets a belly drum going opponents can tera water or dragon to stop it (tera dragon on okidogi is pretty standard, tera steel hydrapple lives a play rough and forces either knock off (for pex) or liquidation (which you want for skarm esp ones who may be trying to brave bird u or have any form of dmg output without BD), while AV just lacks dmg and gets worn down quickly while being neutral to rocks, hates knock off, and is often to passive to do much in return

I also want to share some good experiences I have had while laddering...

1.

behind screens is nuts... serp often can get sacked setting them up vs mons like heatran, torn-t, dogi, lokix, etc and manaphy behind a sub can run circles around teams. This is a very very powerful mon in which regen cant heal dead pokemon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2231754552-uxf0a46v7o1ntzmw2rdmtdzfk4bu20xpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2231753627-m3mlysg3a6afeboltji57cis6o4mm9mpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2231751237-85xew9s9m6srklj1asu3sf5nfr8punnpw?p2

here it often put in a lot of work, it often got in, got a turn of setup and with how bulky it is behind screens it often is able to get 1 kill min, sometimes 2. This is a very impressive mon who also had tour results to back it up

2. Pivot (talking about this cuz it doesnt have an analysis at all)

This mon is less common to my knowledge in tour, ladder, and in other places. But it performs spectacularly, with knock + u-turn being able to force a lot of progress, and with the increase of rotom-w to check weavile this seems like an even better time for zarude to abuse teams that try to shift to more weavile style counterplay which allows zarude to go ham

What makes it unique compared to scarf or SD? compared to scarf it can change its moves, not take hazard chip dmg, and not being locked into a move is very beneficial for it. But compared to SD it has the ability to pivot in and out of bad MU's like skarmory, phys def heatran, bu dogi, salamence and rack up even more chip dmg than before thanks to u-turn + hazards

I really do not like scarf zarude due to the fact all of its moves are useful, and locking into one of them makes them way less impactful and makes zarude harder to force progress with compared to smth like hoopa or dogi who are super strong with both stabs. Boots pivot allows it to take hits and jungle healing them off, pivot in and out, and use knock -> u turn on more def pokemon to gain momentum that would maybe be lost if it was scarf or SD set

3.

it seems it took a nosedive... i havent seen one gligar post shifts despite some people saying that its not as bad as it seems...

 

[BolTingBlazie]

to be honest I think the weavile test was way too soon, I don’t think we had a full grasp of what it could do. I think we should have surveyed about weavile before suspecting because it felt premature and kinda the wrong move because people wanted okidogi and hoopa u gone more, and if weavile ends up being a problem later we are stuck with it

I think weavile is pretty under explored which is why the suspect was probably poorly timed, because as hard as it can be to position I am not sold on the idea that this mon will stay fine forever considering how many brokens are in this tier.

 

[Seraphyde]

Is it just me, or is this motherfucker getting a lot more usage as of late? I've seen three of them today, and I wonder if it's because of Weavile remaining in the tier.

 

[MC Squared]

Is it just me, or is this motherfucker getting a lot more usage as of late? I've seen three of them today, and I wonder if it's because of Weavile remaining in the tier.

In previous gens, it was always a good stop to Weavile

 

[Cheryl.]

So that positive perception I had of the meta a few weeks ago has recently taken a massive nosedive, at least off of playing ladder. Hyper Offense has grown from cute recovering playstyle to oops its almost the entire ladder and there's about 20 different variations to worry about all of which are at least decent outside of their ~3-4 unwinnables buts its okay if you load standard into them you're probably going to lose without some really good anti-HO picks like Sand or Specs Wave Keldeo!!! But enough ranting, wait... its true. HO is taking over the tier even in tours now and I think its rise has to do with the 3 big brokens incentivizing the playstyle's usage over anything else (except stall): Hoopa-Unbound, Okidogi, and Weavile.

What do these three have in common? Well defensively checking them is dubious at best (especially paired with hazards) and they have enough ways around out-offensing them that the standards of offense on BO/balance are just not enough to keep these in check. Okidogi's bulk makes it very tough to wear down without playing the Okidogi mirror mini-game, Weavile is just way too fast for how offensively potent it is, and Hoopa has a weird mix of solid special bulk to keep it around and having the Speed to neuter non-Choiced offenses with Scarf. I think one could argue that neither of these three ON THEIR OWN is too broken to deal with, but building teams that have to account for these three at once, often paired with one another... if you're not playing HO or stall you might as well quit lol. Luckily, the tier has been addressing this fact with the recent suspects and I certainly hope the Dogi sus ends in a ban to begin opening up teambuilding for balance/BOs, but I don't think just one ban is going to fix how hard it is to not just build Hyper Offense/hard stalls to avoid massive Weavile/Hoopa/whatever breaker replaces Dogi problems that other playstyles will run into. And of course, part of this post is that I hate how Gen 9 UU, a tier I really liked in the past for how "normal" it felt compared to the "skillful" nature of HO-filled OU and past RU metas, has fallen into Gen 9's trap of promoting heavy offense and Tera over anything else, but I guess it was inevitable with enough development and Zapdos leaving the tier opening this hellhole up. Hopefully things get better rather than worse from here, ban Dogi and Hoopa see how things go kthx

 

[Catcus]

Usage stats for October are out!

-Tink has been a pretty divisive Pokemon for a few months now. I don't think anything majorly changes with its departure. Good for it though

- Dogi is very likely getting banned, so uu pecha will probably have a dropoff in viability so I don't mind it leaving.

- Last time it was here, Deo was surprisingly not the best. I think the lowered speed tier lets deo run more Offenses which should give it a good niche. It also will be the best lead for HO.

- The Back to Back Suspects and HO genuinely getting better post-shifts means these all get the rise. These three are mainstays on the Style so these aren't much of a surprise. If deo does fall then mew is cooked Though.

- Kinda confused on this one. I'm guessing zap leaving plus terrain strats seeing some more experimentation led to this.

- Meta's been super awkward for a while. A slow hazard weak psychic type in a dark infested tier like uu is going to struggle.

- is anyone surprised

- The Double Whammy of Weavile and Skarmory Dropping plus mons like scizor and Rotom-wash doing better kinda spells doom for the mon. I'm sorry mamobros, but its never been more mamover.

Other interesting stats:

- With more HO use on ladder and It loving the shifts, quaq rose all the way to 7th in usage. The mon previously was 22 in usage, so It rose a whopping 15 places!

These two we're the closest to dropping, with lucha sandwiched between them in usage. Blissey realistically just had new-toy syndrome and is most likely falling. Azu has been steadily declining for a while now. Both seem pretty likely to fall.

- Cha Cha was super close to rising to Ou. This is fine. Cha Cha is good but not meta defining or anything.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Usage stats for October are out!

-Tink has been a pretty divisive Pokemon for a few months now. I don't think anything majorly changes with its departure. Good for it though

- Dogi is very likely getting banned, so uu pecha will probably have a dropoff in viability so I don't mind it leaving.

- Last time it was here, Deo was surprisingly not the best. I think the lowered speed tier lets deo run more Offenses which should give it a good niche. It also will be the best lead for HO.

- The Back to Back Suspects and HO genuinely getting better post-shifts means these all get the rise. These three are mainstays on the Style so these aren't much of a surprise. If deo does fall then mew is cooked Though.

- Kinda confused on this one. I'm guessing zap leaving plus terrain strats seeing some more experimentation led to this.

- Meta's been super awkward for a while. A slow hazard weak psychic type in a dark infested tier like uu is going to struggle.

- is anyone surprised

- The Double Whammy of Weavile and Skarmory Dropping plus mons like scizor and Rotom-wash doing better kinda spells doom for the mon. I'm sorry mamobros, but its never been more mamover.

Other interesting stats:

- With more HO use on ladder and It loving the shifts, quaq rose all the way to 7th in usage. The mon previously was 22 in usage, so It rose a whopping 15 places!

These two we're the closest to dropping, with lucha sandwiched between them in usage. Blissey realistically just had new-toy syndrome and is most likely falling. Azu has been steadily declining for a while now. Both seem pretty likely to fall.

- Cha Cha was super close to rising to Ou. This is fine. Cha Cha is good but not meta defining or anything.

You realize that there were no actual tier shifts this month, right? We're now at the stage in which shifts happen every three months. So Tink and Pecharunt are still here and Deo-S is still OU. These will just be projected shifts if usage stats are consistent for the next couple of months until the actual tier shifts.

Edit: Cool, it just read as if you thought shifts happened. Good thoughts overall. RIP Rhyperior and Mamo

 

[Catcus]

You realize that there were no actual tier shifts this month, right? We're now at the stage in which shifts happen every three months. So Tink and Pecharunt are still here and Deo-S is still OU. These will just be projected shifts if usage stats are consistent for the next couple of months until the actual tier shifts.

yes I understand that. I was giving my thoughts on the projections and what they say about the meta right now/ what the meta could in the future.

 

[Tidal]

Been probably a millenia since i've made any kind of UU post so it's good to be back, gonna give some simple thoughts on some mons and how I feel about the current meta



Though Weavile's stay impacts it a little bit, other shifts in the meta such as the rise of Quaquaval and Zarude have made Specs sets feel great to use, being able to chunk a large majority of the meta for major damage while still functioning as an amazing piece for bulky offense. Water Apple especially was something I tried on the ladder and has started to see usage in SCL to help out with improving the match up against Triple Axel Quaquaval, Heatran and Weavile while being able to use Hydro Pump as a great additional STAB option after tera, and I would put Water all the way up with Fairy as a Tera type. I think bulky NP sets still have a strong place in the metagame, being able to use its bulk more effectively while still being able to dish out big hits, but the immediate power of Specs in a metagame that feels a lot more offensive compared to pre-shifts is absolutely appreciated. I've personally been running 104 HP on mine so I can live +2 Weavile's Knock Off and Torn-T's uninvested Bleakwind after SR while outspeeding univested dirge since I find max speed to be not entirely necessary unless its for other apples since you're slower than most things anyway, but regardless, i'm happy to see the Apple to still be doing pretty good.



With the annoyance of Zapdos and the fall off of Slowking (albeit in exchange for Rotom-W who can wisp you), Quaquaval has shown itself to not only be a powerful sweeper and great utility mon, but an incredibly fun new addition to the metagame. Thanks to some solid natural bulk in combination with Roost, on top of the ability to functionally have more speed than common scarfers like Okidogi and Hoopa-U thanks to Aqua Step, Quaquaval's snowballing ability is something unparalleled in the tier and gives it a lot of depth as a Pokemon because of that, being able to still run bulkier sets while maintaining an offensive presence (which seems to be the name of the game for the tier at the moment). This Pokemon is also very aesthetically pleasing on my teams. a lot more than some other aforementioned water type.



Somehow both the best and the most annoying drop that we received from the shifts, Heatran's offensive and defensive profile has felt like a blessing for a large majority of teams looking for something with a lot of oomph. Offensive sets with either Fairy or Grass Tera Blast are highly potent, with such a unique combination of STAB moves paired with the ability to cleanly trap walls like Toxapex, Skeledirge and Clodsire to free up other teammates. Defensive sets, on the other hand, make excellent use of Flame Body and its utility moves of Stealth Rock and Taunt to shut down bulky structures while checking premier threats like Lokix, Scizor and Zarude. I do feel like we have somehow went from a top tier threat who punishes contact moves (Zapdos) to a top tier threat who punishes contact moves again, but at least this time Heatran is able to perform more for a team outside of clicking strong moves and recovering its health while checking physical breakers with it's RNG ability, and feels quite a lot more healthy for the tier as an addition, and i'm super glad to have it and hope it does not leave us next shift.



These two were some of my absolute favourite more niche mons to use, and seeing the mild jump in Ogerpon's viability while I think Sandy should rise personally, makes me a quite a bit more excited to keep using them. Sandy Shocks does a great job at pressuring a lot of more common guys like Kix, Quaq and BU Dogi thanks to its pretty unique speed tier, and with a niche as an offensive spiker that can lure balloon drill in while matching up at the least decently into every remover in the tier is nice, though it still struggles as a Ground-type that is not Excadrill in the tier. Ogerpon's match up into HO is always something that'll give it high regard thanks to the speed boost it's granted from Embody Aspect with access to Encore, since stupid teapot can't ever be faster than it while Quaquaval and Comfey is terrified of a boosted Cudgel. Though recent drops such as Skarmory and Heatran, on top of the already prominent Pokemon such as Cobalion, Okidogi and Scizor can give it trouble, it's been given a decent enough position in the meta that makes it a very fun option.


As for my general thoughts, I think playing on the ladder has soured my experience a little bit with the HO infestation due to back-to-back suspects, but with Okidogi's soon removal (hopefully) I feel a lot better about the tier. Weavile and Hoopa-U may both prove to be a bit much in the future, but for now both of them are relatively manageable and are at most annoying for teams that may struggle into them more than they would think. Zapdos' leave has opened up a lot of additional Pokemon to make their way into stronger positions into the metagame, which makes the tier feel much better than it did prior to the shifts, but Tornadus-T still manages to maintain its place on top of the viability rankings and in play has felt like it limits creativity to a degree? which would be something I'd be interested in hearing from others about and how they feel the tier generally feels.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

General thoughts on the tier...



Outside of one azumarill usage i saw in all of homefield I do not think this mon is viable at all.. it is prediction reliant, slow in a metagame where slow breakers generally get shit on by hazards, take hits, and azu is prob a mon more vulnerable to knock off than it wants to be, it is way less bulky since it often cannot run boots, lefties, and runs av, band or sitrus on BD sets...

this mon is generally not a mon I do not think belongs in UU, https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ings-update-at-post-232.3735310/post-10307352 I talk about it here but yeah.... use quaq 90% of the time...



I found this mon a lot while laddering... while using skarm + slowking which should be enough in theory to stop quaq from going ham I have found SD sets to still break through esp with SD Knock variants that just absolutely kill me at +2 and if slowking gets chipped its kinda game over.... yeah sure u have teammates but with moxie + aqua step it can get out of hand..

Def variants are smth i have seen get talked about since they have been in the tier, general consensus on them is that they are utter garbage but from laddering and playing I have seen them around a fair bit... I feel it would be wrong to say they are viable but more so usable compared to before. They are able to spin on drill which drill wants nothing really off, helmet quaq racks up a ton of chip dmg against foes like sciz, weavile, spin drill, checks hoopa as well....

I think def variants are def usable, they are able to stick around and be more reliable spinner esp for stuff like av torn-t, the help against spikes skarm (helmet skarm really spends roosting off the bb recoil + helmet dmg)



the 3rd water type i wanted to talk about... after spamming HO for reqs, seeing screen teams be pretty darn good, and seeing manaphy get 2 for 1 trades quite often... it feels quite good, u often times bully the crap out of coba, exca, heatran, scizor, quaq esp behind screens... and once u get going its very hard to stop a manaphy, often times it can tera steel/poison/fairy/and more to get out of tricky situations

Manaphy is a great abuser of serp screens + glare support as setting up on slow pokemon is what it does best, and with smth like torn t paralyzed it becomes way way easier to get stuff going and makes ur opponent also way more cautious as manaphy is a terror at +3 after all.. dead pokemon cannot heal off damage



I think its usage dropped off a cliff and it should be put into C rank, I have not seen a single gligar post shifts, unsure about what others think about it but i have talked to some who have stated its a crap mon and to be honest, I agree. Why would i use gligar? Okidogi commonly still 1v1's it and while setting up spikes is smth it can do and i can prob use skarm + WW to bully it

Gligar also just generally suffers... rotom-w > slowking means spikes are less useful, spin quaq bullying it means it often times is not gonna be keeping spikes as well, and I feel gastrodon also is a better spiker esp against heatran, duels torn t quite well, and still checks thundy-t, while providing water immunity.

Maybe it is still usable as spikes on coba, exca, dogi, using revavroom as fother are still traits... but it feels weird



This mon is dumb... KM poltea is just irritating asf, often times it can act beat most mons 1v1 esp with cursed body hax... ur trying to use exca to eq it down or maybe 50/50 SD? well disabling eq will solve all that so it can freely tera steel + shell smash and run away with the game....

I wished we could boot this mon out as it contributes nothing to the overall meta other than being a pest on HO but its unlikely and its just fish that loses into ttar, heatran, being on psy terrain, and generally vulnurable to taunt users, phazers, haze, encore, etc



not as unviable as i thought but def worse without zapdos, i thought it was C rank but its prob B- is fine for it, it still trades super well into stuff like coba, bullies phys def hydrapple with stone edge -> megahorn, slowking does not want much to do against it, and is bulky asf esp into torn-t which it can smack a lot of stuff around.



TInk, Heatran, Rotom-w, tera poison dirge, and skarm (who you drain pp of roost with icicle crash and have a solid chance of hax'ing them down) is good for it, but weavile being in the meta means often times "why use mamo" esp in a meta where smth like flame body tran can shut it down or balloon is irritating for it.... Prob not as bad as people think it is



slams the shit out of cheese, bye bye poltea, psy terrain, serp screens, mew HO, and checks stall quite well by forcing a knock usually onto mandibuzz and can SD + jungle healing on many mons usually forcing a dirge tera



I have not seen this mon in a while and you would think bullying the crap out of screens is a good niche but then idk.. you have to run eq for heatran, skarm shits on you, rotom-w threatens wisp, weavile is top dog, slowking bullies non knock variants and i feel esp hoopa u makes you not want to bring this mon
____________________________

Well these are some of my thoughts on the meta.... its interesting, sometimes its making me wanna play my gacha games (when i face mew HO, serp screens, and psy terrain) and sometimes it is a 8-9/10 experience. Boot dogi

 

[haunted paper]

Hello UU! I was very curious as to what top players (ladder and tournaments) think about hazards (including removal), Tornadus-Therian, Hoopa-U, and Lokix in the current UU metagame. A lot has happened, so maybe this question is too early to ask but I am letting my curiosity get the best of me.

Anyone else want to chime in, go for it. Also, if anyone is looking for someone to test teams/sets with for the current meta, let me know, I'll gladly help.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Hello UU! I was very curious as to what top players (ladder and tournaments) think about hazards (including removal), Tornadus-Therian, Hoopa-U, and Lokix in the current UU metagame. A lot has happened, so maybe this question is too early to ask but I am letting my curiosity get the best of me.

Anyone else want to chime in, go for it. Also, if anyone is looking for someone to test teams/sets with for the current meta, let me know, I'll gladly help.

- hazards while annoying idt anything particular of it.... i think hazards are healthy and hazard stack is usually smth u can remove once with exca (even if it takes like 80 in the process) and mkae u work for it again... if ur able to keep hazards up then the opp's team didnt really threaten u anyway

- Torn-t is smth I shifted to boots... with taunt sets being quite fun, sure u lose on exca but i feel bullying pain split rotom, t wave slowking, dirge, coba, etc. I find that av sets arent really as big and it feels like with rocks cutting into them and how annoying it is to get it off you are often taking chip you could have saved if you were boots. I think also the hard to wear down aspect is over exagerated considering torn t doesnt force as much progress as one would think

- Hoopa-u is annoying, doesnt contribute much to the meta, and ultimately has to win like 1 prediction. Scarf sets are the bane of most teams while ive seen other sets explored like av, consumable items to take advantage of magician, and boots which allow u to slam bulky teams quite hard

- Lokix boots sets I think have fallen off... sure dogi leaving is good but bulky coba, skarm, flame body heatran, boots torn-t, rotom-w > slowking being more popular, gren and latios being less popular means I feel kix just feels less of a dominant presence

 

[Catcus]

New Survey!

Enjoyability: 8
Competitiveness: 7

The No Dogi Meta's still being explored to it's fullest extent but so far I've had a lot of fun! There's still some things I dislike but I feel like there's a lot of room to experiment and discover.

- 1

I still don't really find Torn to be a major issue. It's not really forcing the meta into an unhealthy situation and I've never felt that it's not broken in practice. Pivot sets aren't running over teams and nasty plot is still pretty niche and is kinda inconsistent.

- 1

This is honestly the first time I've seen quaq actually in a discussion like this. Either way I don't see a problem with the funny duck. As a sweeper it struggles against most bulky mons like Hydrapple, Skarmory and especially Toxapex. It's also not really reasonable to slot protect nowadays so Kix can beat it after chip. On the other Hand quaq has some great defensive niches and is also a fun mon to use in general. I wouldn't rule it out in the future but I don't see it rn.

- 5

This mon has dominated both in game and in ban discussions for like 4 months at this point. I think it's only teetering on broken in practice but it's still requires so much prep compared to other threats and it still has ways around almost all of them with certain coverage. Banning it would be huge towards taking off pressure in builder imo.

- 4

No where near as banworthy as Hoopa imo but it's still pretty annoying to me. It's checks are more limited after dogi and previous checks like coba are worse. It's also one of the easier mons to remove as it doesn't offer a lot of important stuff to the meta beyond another threat. There is always the chance more checks rise up like they did with mons like tink coba and dogi and it can fall off once again, but at the moment I'm not the biggest fan of this mon

- 2

I still don't find it broken. It's still prone to thudding into tera or just getting stat-checked and it's not hard to revenge kill. It's still possible but I don't see it being much of an issue rn.

Other Mons
- Seen this idea become more common but drill is sorta broken? It's more of an on paper thing for me so far but I think it's worth keeping an eye on.
- Cheese incarnate. Checks should be more splashable now but It's still the funny teapot and I'm still a little cautious about it .
- I wouldn't have any action on it rn but I've seen enough people call it the devil now to where it's probably worth monitoring

 

[Colin]

Following in Cactus's lead, i'll post my opinions on the survey

Enjoyment and competitive an 8/10 for me

- I think I put 1 but maybe 2 I don't remember

Torn is good. Its good at trading and its the best fast pivot, but its not difficult to pressure or trade status/knock vs it. NP taunt sets are also good, they're definitely not broken though I think. Torn is good reliable but its not so reliable it prevents other teams from existing to me.

- Lol I already forgot, I think I put this between a 1 and a 3

I've had a few Rotom-Wash explode to this, great threat but its very limited by its immediate speed tier and also its bulk, because it wants to soft check stuff and may need to take a hit when setting up. Aqua step moxie is really threatening, many prio/scarfers are effective vs it, and most bulky pokes dislike trading but usually can vs unboosted quaq in an emergency. I think quaq rewards good play and makes HO games more interactive, keep it in the tier for now.

- 3

Scarf hoopa is a nuke vs almost everything, boots/AV hoopa make fat miserable. The one thing I dislike about uu right now is how powerful dark type offense is, idk if thats Weavile's or Hoopa's fault. Hoopa is more consistent as a threat, Weavile can be more broken with Tera SD but is less immediately threatening (it does force chople berry on a lot of bulky steel types imo).

- I think I put a 3

Really threatening pokemon, makes it difficult to build without a fighter/apple/bulky steel and then toss a lot of their hp and defensive utility vs it. It tends to get outsped a lot and outside of sturdy it really needs to ohko most things to be a big threat. Torn especially gives balance teams a way to make it hard to pilot.

- 3

Read the hoopa section, in game its worse than Hoopa but its far more painful to build vs bc of its speed tier and great stabs. Lots of potential broken sets but not much of it has become consistently broken.

- I don't think this was on the survey but people are calling it broken. I hard disagree, Excadrill has to spend a turn boosting either or both of its stats, and unlike quaq which has a similar problem it can't speed boost off of its stab to mitigate it. I hate being flinched too but its rare that I have to risk the game on a 30%. Drills an amazing utility pick and its still a big threat, I just don't think its broken due to how many turns it needs to get going with its only average bulk and speed.

 

[haunted paper]

For the tiering survey I forgot to put Lokix to be looked at. I did put in spikes and heavy-duty-boots though. These are my reasons for why I think those 3 things should be looked at.

Lokix - Reason for this is because it gets talked so much in reference to the past couple of suspects tests, new sets, upcoming threats, top tier mons, tournaments, laddering, etc. And to be honest, I don't think it gets talked about in a healthy way at all. It may seem healthy for the meta due to Tinted Lens First Impression STAB being able to stop so many sweeps and scarfers, but its' really not fair. Yagami's sucker punch set and the Knock + U-Turn combo are pretty gross as well.

The reason why Lokix's STAB priorities in First Impression and Sucker Punch are unfair is because they are too good at stopping offense. Sweeping and Scarfers help the metagame, believe it or not. A hard earned sweep should be respected and scarfers are solid for naturally fast threats like Tornadus-Therian. Lokix gatekeeps this big time. And with heavy duty boots, it makes the threat even worse; no chip from hazards and being to able to U-Turn on incoming threats. There's a lot of counterplay for Lokix in the builder on offense (protect) and balance for a reason.

What makes Sucker Punch worse than First Impression is that its' not a one time deal, the only real drawback is if the opponent chooses a non-attacking move. Sucker Punch isn't just good at stopping HO teams, it can be a threatening move on SD sets as well. Not caring about x2 resists is also hard to deal with, especially taking into consideration:
+2 252 Atk Black Glasses Tinted Lens Tera Dark Lokix Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Black Glasses Tinted Lens Tera Dark Lokix Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 204-242 (63.1 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Tinted Lens Tera Dark Lokix Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then, there's Knock Off + U-Turn, putting balance and stall on a timer, especially when running a hazards team. This combo is truly deadly against slower teams because it's unresisted and excellent for progress + momentum. Not much appreciates losing an item nor constant chip while having to deal with a fresh threat off a U-Turn + hazards.


Spikes + Heavy-Duty-Boots - In my honest opinion, the worst things in the metagame (even more than the recently banned Okidogi). Both bring an unhealthy presence to the tier. I'm not saying "It's broken yo!" Rather, "They bring unhealthy team match-ups." Every game in mid to high ladder + tournament play comes down to Hazard Stack + 2 Threats, Anti-Hazards + HDB spam, and Anti-Meta. Anti-Meta teams are always a thing so won't get into it.

Spikes stacking gets brought up a lot, and in fact it got brought up throughout the entirety of the Weavile Suspect Thread and was used heavily in teams that were used to get reqs for said suspect test. Spikes get mentioned quite a bit with Hoopa-U discussions as well. Hazard removal is lackluster this gen but there is taunt and heavy-duty-boots, but that's where Weavile, Hoopa-U, and mental herb Mew come into the mix. Mental Herb Mew is probably the best hazard setter and honestly can do so much more thanks to its' colorful movepool and great stats. Weavile and Hoopa-U are great knockers and allow for amazing progress on hazard stacking teams, applying pressure on even teams packing taunt, rapid spin + defog, and heavy-duty-boots. Which is outright disgusting. Not only is spikes stacking great with knock abusers and bulky cores, but it's also great when paired with strong attackers that lack enough power to KO walls, and this point gets brought up a lot, again even in the Weavile suspect test but also in the Okidogi test.

Heavy-Duty-Boots is great for a lot mons like Talonflame and can help them perform better in the metagame with all the hazards around, but it can make a lot of threats too good like Lokix. If hazards are used to gain momentum, then what to do about something that stops it? Knock off. But wait! Would if they switch to something that can handle it? Oh well. Honestly, boots brings a lot of problems that go unnoted and definitely make certain teams harder to deal with, especially ones with regen cores. Tornadus-Therian, probably the best boots abuser. Its' fast and has a lot of great attacking moves and utility, so being able to get chip is important, but regen with boots help to mitigate any kind of chip damage. This is a common strat that many players allude to in past suspects. Take for instance when Cynde went on about regen cores when discussing Weavile (a lot got talked about in that test thread).

On one hand, boots helps a lot of mons weak to rocks have a chance to provide a healthy niche to the metagame, but on other hand it makes other problems more glaring and difficult to deal with. Not only that, boots seems like only a band-aid for the hazards issue rather than actually solve the problem.

 

[ThatOneApple]

New Survey Yippee

Enjoyment - 8
Competitiveness - 7

I think the tier is pretty fun and is on the right track after the dogi ban, building is a little weird but that could partially be due to the dogi ban changing the meta a good bit.

- 1
This guy's fine, really no issues with it to me and is just nice to have around.

- 3
I've kinda mellowed out a little on Weavile to the point that I dont hate its existence even if im not the biggest fan of it. Quaq im a little torn on because sometimes its the most broken thing in existence and other times it can flop, its defensive utility is kinda nice so in hindsight maybe i shoulda given it a 2.

- 4
The Dogi ban made this thing a more of a pain with it no longer needing Zen Headbutt, I may just be overreacting but my opinion still stands that we lose literally nothing from removing this so if it continues to be a pain it'll be worth looking into. This especially applies if Tinkaton rises to OU meaning it can just go all in on Superpower for Coba.

- 5
Idk what hasnt been said about this guy, just a massive pain in the builder because of how you need fat dark resists that usually cannot be used to check anything else without the risk of being in Hyperspace Fury range. This usually means you need to dedicate multiple slots to checking it so you can afford to let your dark resists take a hit. Additionally, as Colin said it makes using fat incredibly difficult if not impossible because of its power and coverage making it unreasonably difficult to try and play slow against it, while it still has the speed with scarf makes it hard to outpace on more offensive structures. Overall I just feel like we've put up with Hoopa's nonsense for far too long with the only reason I've seen being that it can threaten Torn, which we now have Weavile for, so that point doesnt really work. I think banning hoopa will open up new avenues in teambuilding and let the tier breath a little more.

 

[Catcus]

Usage Stats for November!

- lmao. Rhy's been dead for a while so quickdropping makes sense.

- chansey returns. Not much else happens after a rise so its fine. It would've fallen to ru anyways

- Pecha's kinda underrated here rn tbh so it's kinda sad to see it go, but we'll manage

- Webs loses a lot from araq leaving. Now they're stuck with the setter who hates drill so it takes a big hit. Ghosts were already a bit of a requirement on the style so it should still retain some viability.

- Pretty obvious for how HO-infested the tier is getting. Lucha has also become more established on HO so the rise makes more sense then last time.

- took you guys long enough. The mon's been established since July. About time it rose.

- I'll defend meta rn but both have been falling off for a while. Both were gonna fall last time so this is still obvious.

basically the same thoughts as last time. Wasn't the best last time but could carve out a good niche in the current meta.

Other Fun Stats

- Quaq's rise to meta staple is reflected as much in ladder as it's tour performance. Going from 22th to 7th to 4th as it is now is kinda crazy and is super impressive.

- Azu liked dogi leaving but it's usage is still the lowest of any currently uu mon that isn't projected to fall

- Tink isn't projected to rise anymore! We mmight get to keep it for a few more months.

 

[MC Squared]

Usage Stats for November!

- lmao. Rhy's been dead for a while so quickdropping makes sense.

- chansey returns. Not much else happens after a rise so its fine. It would've fallen to ru anyways

- Pecha's kinda underrated here rn tbh so it's kinda sad to see it go, but we'll manage

- Webs loses a lot from araq leaving. Now they're stuck with the setter who hates drill so it takes a big hit. Ghosts were already a bit of a requirement on the style so it should still retain some viability.

- Pretty obvious for how HO-infested the tier is getting. Lucha has also become more established on HO so the rise makes more sense then last time.

- took you guys long enough. The mon's been established since July. About time it rose.

- I'll defend meta rn but both have been falling off for a while. Both were gonna fall last time so this is still obvious.

basically the same thoughts as last time. Wasn't the best last time but could carve out a good niche in the current meta.

Other Fun Stats

- Quaq's rise to meta staple is reflected as much in ladder as it's tour performance. Going from 22th to 7th to 4th as it is now is kinda crazy and is super impressive.

- Azu liked dogi leaving but it's usage is still the lowest of any currently uu mon that isn't projected to fall

- Tink isn't projected to rise anymore! We mmight get to keep it for a few more months.

The rises that happen every 3 months is based off combined usage of the last 3 months

 

[darkmoonbeam]

The rises that happen every 3 months is based off combined usage of the last 3 months

Catcus is just being hypothetical here, its intresting thoughts to read imo

 

[bungeegum_420]

Pecha's kinda underrated here rn tbh so it's kinda sad to see it go, but we'll manage

with dogi already gone this rise could slowly push rockpon closer to getting banned