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OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
Some Thoughts
- Tyranitar > Skarmory. It feels harder to fit Tyranitar on teams more than ever with the competition for slots. But teams that want weather gone or gameplan teams that favour CuneLax/salac sweeper still need consistent ways to remove it.
- #3 Mence. Arguably the hardest pokemon to deal with when trying to craft an offensive gameplan. Key offensive cores such as combinations of Mence/Tar/Meta/Pert struggle to switch into Mix + Spike. DD necessitates a certain degree of bulk and not using too frail teams. Intimidate also glues together slightly frailer offenses.
- #5 Cune. Broken ass mon with CM + STAB and 2 random moves randomly 6-0'ing teams, I struggle to deal with this mon in the builder, especially with the recent popularity of Calm Cune. Also feels like there is no mon that covers all lead cune sets other than Zapdos.
- #7 Zapdos. The evil zapdos set is a demon. Teams are never weak to offensively invested zapdos in practice as they are on paper if they decide to put 252 hp evs.
- #8 Snorlax. V essential mon to use on Spikeless.
- #11 Gengar. The best case scenario for gengar in many situations happens only 75% of the time, and it needs to do so multiple times. Yuck.
- #17 Medicham. Broken Lead. Easily one of the best 5 in the game.
what is this "evil" zapdos set?
My VR as of August 2024:
Everybody has their own way of doing viability rankings and my thoughts are a subjective combination of:
-how many well established team styles can a mon work on
-how important are they to the team styles that they do work on
I've been playing competitive ADV since the Mushi league season that began in August of last year so figured with a year into the game, I could do a little retrospective/time capsule my thoughts
So some notes on placements I've experienced/mons that may be different from where is conventional:
Metagross - Fits on basically every teamstyle which is why I have it ahead of Skarm, ZapMeta combination is incredible on so many different styles and while the MenceMeta defensive/offensive profile is talked about a lot, I think the ZapMeta combo is even better, I'm coming around to the T-Punch/Grass/EQ set but I think the key to making that work is speed creeping it to 244+, holds special offense together and is funnily enough the like, 1 mon that is really required for that style even though it's running physical sets there a lot of the time, the one way I think it shouldn't be used where it commonly is: Protect Meta as sole rock resist on balance
Jirachi - at 3 and over Skarm where a lot of people wouldn't have it. It's best set is the Fear set but so many new uses have been seeing use lately: lead 4 attacks with amazing coverage, tons of EV benchmarks in different fields that it can hit from its 600 BST, Serene Grace being total bullshit, Jirachi/Claydol defensive profile is outstanding and I think underexplored in terms of how many different teams it can be used on, I think it's closer to Meta than skarm but just think Meta's game breaking potential can come early/middle/late whereas Rachi's tend to come mid-late and requires just a little bit more than Meta when building.
Celebi - When I started last year, Celebi was all the rage. People were and still kinda are abusing every aspect of its movepool and while it is very strong, it is spikes bait and sacrifices too much offense when it wants reliable healing. Using it as a wall is almost never the right mon imo. If you're doing some type of passing, you really just need Mag imo which limits you in the builder. The Superbi set doesn't 1 hit anything and is tough to get on the field with a spike and sand in play. It's good but has too much working against it to be a top 10 mon imo.
Starmie/Claydol - I probably use Starmie more than Claydol but I have to admit, Claydol just fits on so many more styles. Starmie is great at what it does and one place I really love using OffStar is on Mixed/Mag Offenses. I feel like it's a conventional that OffStar is simply a spikes cleaner, but 3 Attacks/Recover can be great if you have a lot of pieces that can knock opposing Bliss down. I also don't think MagDol is as bad as people say it is, I just think the boomer versions suck. If you think really hard, there are a lot of really good 4-combinations of mons that don't want Skarm the Wall and a spike down.
Charizard/Moltres - Moltres is probably the better mon for balance, but it can really only be used with Spikes. Charizard can fit on so many more different styles and it's speed tier actually allows it to abuse the Blaze thing. Charizard is probably underexplored in the sets it can run too.
Magneton - I think the bulky Leftovers set should be used more often on Skarm removal teams but you need a spinner. A lot of these squads don't like Gengar either and you can't really get Pursuit to fit. The bulky set tends to be pretty reliable at getting weather clear off as well which further enables the mons you have that hate Skarm. I have the same thoughts on MagDol as I do on MagDug, I don't think it's two shitty mons but 1 good mon that can enable good 4-combinations.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stic-cores-and-concepts.3687815/post-10179441
sub rest tox bolt zapdos
if we're all doing this...
-I don't think the exact line between what's S and what's A matters. Celebi is nearly as good as Gengar who's nearly as good as Mence all the way up, all of them are tier staples for good reason. The last three are a bit less universal-feeling but still close enough to belong in the same discussion.
-I know Camerupt has seen tour usage, but purely from my perspective, neither of the F mons should ever be on a team. Umbreon is the only pursuiter checked by Psychics usings it for free turns. Camerupt feels like a deadweight against offensive teams; because it drops like a fly you can't rely on it against the mons it's good vs or they'll sweep the rest. Dugtrio especially is an issue.
-Sableye is the only spinblocker with Recover (also koff) so I think it's worth thinking about even if barely, and it does have usage backing at #50 above ranked mons like Camerupt and Steelix. I think Sableye deserves to be considered part of the meta.
-I think C+ mons at least deserve to be used occasionally to keep opponents on their toes. C- I can't see being impressive but they're not total deadweights
-I'm not suggesting Nidoking for the list proper when nobody's using it but I think the mon has some potential. It has all the type coverage you could want, a speed tier putting it ahead of Metagross and Tyranitar and a useful lack of 4x weaknesses. These together make it a possibility as a hyperaggressive lead, hitting on both sides with moves like EQ/Boltbeam/Rock Slide/HP Grass/Fire Blast and Endure-Salac to finish off your opponent's lead without sacrificing any tempo.
Update:
Unranked Solrock and Lunatone because I'm only ranking >0.1% mons if I feel like there's something to say for them. On a similar note I haven't seen much of Quag but I can buy that it has a niche. Looking through the usage stats like a refrigerator Omastar is the only remaining shitmon I can see myself trying. I don't know where I was going with Slaking and Cloyster being as high as they were, while my opinions of Jolt and Hera have decreased a little.
-I know Camerupt has seen tour usage, but purely from my perspective, neither of the F mons should ever be on a team. Umbreon is the only pursuiter checked by Psychics usings it for free turns. Camerupt feels like a deadweight against offensive teams; because it drops like a fly you can't rely on it against the mons it's good vs or they'll sweep the rest. Dugtrio especially is an issue.
-Sableye is the only spinblocker with Recover (also koff) so I think it's worth thinking about even if barely, and it does have usage backing at #50 above ranked mons like Camerupt and Steelix. I think Sableye deserves to be considered part of the meta.
-I think C+ mons at least deserve to be used occasionally to keep opponents on their toes. C- I can't see being impressive but they're not total deadweights
-I'm not suggesting Nidoking for the list proper when nobody's using it but I think the mon has some potential. It has all the type coverage you could want, a speed tier putting it ahead of Metagross and Tyranitar and a useful lack of 4x weaknesses. These together make it a possibility as a hyperaggressive lead, hitting on both sides with moves like EQ/Boltbeam/Rock Slide/HP Grass/Fire Blast and Endure-Salac to finish off your opponent's lead without sacrificing any tempo.
Update:
Unranked Solrock and Lunatone because I'm only ranking >0.1% mons if I feel like there's something to say for them. On a similar note I haven't seen much of Quag but I can buy that it has a niche. Looking through the usage stats like a refrigerator Omastar is the only remaining shitmon I can see myself trying. I don't know where I was going with Slaking and Cloyster being as high as they were, while my opinions of Jolt and Hera have decreased a little.
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Donphan is pretty good. It's a surprisingly reliable rock resist with no 4x weaknesses and it compresses rapid spin. You will probably want to run Rest and rely on teammates to generate momentum, but if you want a spinner that lasts forever and pulls its weight defensively it's a good option. 120 atk is decent for neutral EQs too
edit: also, Houndoom has some sauce. If your team need Pursuit services but don't like sand, Houndoom can threaten high damage Pursuits unlike Umbreon and can punish its switchins with Beat Up and Hidden Power (though 4MSS is an issue)
The Quagsire disrespect is honestly insane. So many lists with so many shitmons who win every once in a blue moon or only win if the opponent sucks at the game (no offense), god Quag deserves more. Beats Pert, beats Cune/Milo and is still functionally a Swampert in terms of defense... much better than most BLs
Post "JI1 top8 and former spler's guide to using Quagsire" and explain the structures it fits on. Despite being on your advpl team and working with you quite a bit with friendlies and practice I still don't entirely understand the enigmatic doper beyond "rest cursepert who beats cune but has worse stats and enables a different pert (maybe?)"
I, and many others, would love to hear what you have to say with your time with it, considering the fact across ji1 and advpl it has close to 100% win rate or 100% exactly.
The Armaldo disrespect is honestly insane. So many lists with so many shitmons who win every once in a blue moon or only win if the opponent sucks at the game (no offense), god Maldo deserves more. Beats Celebi, jirachi and snorlax whilst still having amazing utility in knock off and providing the teams it fits on w much needed cmer checking ...easily one of the best BLs
Where is Camel in all of this?
I know this is just a copypasta but at least Maldo is ranked... ur telling me u are ranking Scizor, Chansey, Poliwrath, Golduck, Dusclops and other random garbage but not Quagsire? At the very least, Maldo is ranked higher than all of those unless the person doing the ranks is having a aneryusm and think they r in 2004 where Dusclops is A tier and Donphan is too
Tier list from a newer player, mostly leaving this to come back to later and see my old thoughts + this list has the risk of being biased towards the relatively few teams I've actually used + being low/mid ladder focused
Didn't spend much time ordering the B's but vaguely how I see them, left a few Pokemon that definitely have some niche (Dusclops, Zam, Donphan) in not sure since I don't have enough experience to really compare it to other not quite meta staple but still good Pokemon around B tier. A few more that I did tier (Hariyama, Armaldo, Regice, Heracross, and a few others) I havent used more than maybe once or twice but that's what they vaguely feel like they should be around
I think meta bliss and gar are just a bit more defining than the other "standard" adv mons in A and A-, feels like they're both useful in every game I use them and a huge deal to try and play against even w a pursuiter/Dugtrio
Ttar best, no sand would make so many games unplayable + rock stab hits so hard, its bulk is so good it takes a ton to kill, DD wins games constantly, mixed/special tar can hit so much super effectively, CB is really strong (love CB focus punch, really hard to deal with and because of tar's versatility I feel like I usually get one off by virtue of opponent having to care for some other set/move I'm not running/didn't use)
Skarm #2, it feels the entire tier is focused around killing Skarm but it literally never dies, not much to say besides spikes are pretty good in this game
Metagross best CBer, leftovers w mash eq boom then agility/protect/rock slide/some tech last always useful too, and special/mixed hits a ton with moves like psychic, hp grass, thunderpunch etc, feels like it deals so much damage and takes just little enough to always dominate the games it's in
Blissey is Blissey, never dies + can threaten with CM boltbeam, ice beam fire blast is a really fun attack combo to catch Metagross, always has the option to run wish/aromatherapy (though I've barely used full support Blisseys)
Swampert checks like the entire tier and stays alive forever
Zapdos just kills stuff pretty damn well + can abuse bp or sub bp well since it kills so much
aero is aero, the ease of revenge killing makes games really simple to play out + can avoid having to guess sets against mons who get a ton of coverage
I love Celebi, leech seed feels like the best midground play in the game + is a great way to deal w bliss and suicune and holds teams together well, CM leech
Claydol checks, spins, and booms, plus having stab psychic forces Gengar to think twice before swapping into it as well. I think it suffers a bit from not always having a job, but I think its defensive utility + boom overweigh that by quite a bit
Jirachi is probably the best special sweeper, superachi sets can pretty much always get a CM up since it's so bulky, and I think its wish protect fire punch body slam/toxic/filler set can just sit on a ton of teams after just one or two of their pokes are taken out, and since its got pixie stats it can always run random mixed coverage to catch stuff your team needs
Salamence leverages intimidate so well and dragon flying lets it either get a DD off or throw out a attack for pretty low cost, mixed is really great and customizable, and CB is an option (don't really love CB it feels like a waste of it but it's definitely pretty good), unfamiliar with wish sets but recognize that intimidate wish with mence's stats and typing is gonna stonewall a good couple pokemon
I barely use Milotic but it stonewalls a ton, lives thunderbolts better than it should + it's a great status switch in with marvel scale
Starmie is my preferred spinner, offensive set hits everything with pump + boltbeam and defensive set can slow down a ton with twave spam and if you can get it in on a passive mon just recover back up and natural cure off the twave/toxic they probably threw at you. It feels like Starmie really wishes it had like 5 more base stats in defenses, since I feel the defensive sets have to choose between speed and folding a little too hard to strong neutral hits, but even though it's flawed I think Starmie provides a ton to teams
Dug is Dug, I think its effect on the tier is larger than its actual power within it but it's for sure a great mon
Suicune can really run away with things but its initial power being not too high lets the opponent get some counterplay out before you turn unkillable, if there was no leech seed or blissey I would hate to play against this mon
Im really high on Gyara, it's the first truly flawed Pokemon (and putting it this high might be overdoing it) but I think in conjunction with Salamence having two intimidaters is so valuable for offensive teams + against non-thunderbolt special attacks it has just enough bulk to setup or slam with a eq double edge or whatever hp it runs. Forcing non rock slide meta to boom/hit with a mediocre mash is a really great entry point too, especially on offensive teams where there often isn't a great switch to a meta
mag is mag, does its job great, i like opting out of magnet for whatever random tech you want, endure salac is great or hp fire for Forre
Forre has great tools with spike spin boom eq hpbug but it can get a bit awkward having to give up 1 of them (2 if you want zap cannon to slow win against skarm/ catch gar or various other swaps with paras) but the role compression is undeniable
Moltres/Charizard fire stab is scary, Moltres having wisp and a bit more power with zard having focus punch, sub petaya and dragon claw giving it more versatility, I feel they pretty often just clean up, zard 100 base speed is really great as well (moltres 90 is still good)
Flygon is weird to rank as like a levitating swampert? but it can run CB pretty well, 4x to ice isn't nearly as bad as it becomes later as well, levitating sand immune lets its ok bulk feel like great bulk
Snorlax is tough since it probably is worse than it feels when I use it, vulnerable to spikes sand leech para etc but if you can make it work its so hard to deal with, fighting stab just isn't horribly common, and if you run it then worst case you have stab boom off 110 attack
P2 also weird to rank since it's a strange combination of counter trapping + checking whatever it can (which is a decent amount) but I like using it
and it lets you play brazenly against dug since you don't have to worry about it picking off 3 of your mons
Don;t have a great idea of the real role of most of the mons below this so take these with a grain of salt
Hariyama knock can be huge in long games+thick fat giving it 2 more weaknesses (on top of being rock resist) makes it consistently useful
Breloom got spore + 130 attack pretty linear but spore is disgusting mach punch gives it a lot of usefulness as well
Regice is a strange off Blissey with stab ice beam + boom, spreads twave as well
Never really used Hera but stab megahorn is great + fighting stab (focus punch is great if you can get a sub up), but bad defensive typing + grounded sand weak really kills its longevity with its ok bulk
I feel like Jolteon is more pesky than good but maybe haven't played enough good players using it, outspeeding dug w access to bp lets you chuck it out there though, but not huge on Jolteon
Don't know anything beyond the basic what they dos of the rest of the mons, ordered very loosely. If you read this lmk what you think my view is mostly shaped by ladder + random tournament games I watch on youtube, tried to not be biased around the bad matchups of the teams I use
Ttar best, no sand would make so many games unplayable + rock stab hits so hard, its bulk is so good it takes a ton to kill, DD wins games constantly, mixed/special tar can hit so much super effectively, CB is really strong (love CB focus punch, really hard to deal with and because of tar's versatility I feel like I usually get one off by virtue of opponent having to care for some other set/move I'm not running/didn't use)
Skarm #2, it feels the entire tier is focused around killing Skarm but it literally never dies, not much to say besides spikes are pretty good in this game
Metagross best CBer, leftovers w mash eq boom then agility/protect/rock slide/some tech last always useful too, and special/mixed hits a ton with moves like psychic, hp grass, thunderpunch etc, feels like it deals so much damage and takes just little enough to always dominate the games it's in
Blissey is Blissey, never dies + can threaten with CM boltbeam, ice beam fire blast is a really fun attack combo to catch Metagross, always has the option to run wish/aromatherapy (though I've barely used full support Blisseys)
Swampert checks like the entire tier and stays alive forever
Zapdos just kills stuff pretty damn well + can abuse bp or sub bp well since it kills so much
aero is aero, the ease of revenge killing makes games really simple to play out + can avoid having to guess sets against mons who get a ton of coverage
I love Celebi, leech seed feels like the best midground play in the game + is a great way to deal w bliss and suicune and holds teams together well, CM leech
Claydol checks, spins, and booms, plus having stab psychic forces Gengar to think twice before swapping into it as well. I think it suffers a bit from not always having a job, but I think its defensive utility + boom overweigh that by quite a bit
Jirachi is probably the best special sweeper, superachi sets can pretty much always get a CM up since it's so bulky, and I think its wish protect fire punch body slam/toxic/filler set can just sit on a ton of teams after just one or two of their pokes are taken out, and since its got pixie stats it can always run random mixed coverage to catch stuff your team needs
Salamence leverages intimidate so well and dragon flying lets it either get a DD off or throw out a attack for pretty low cost, mixed is really great and customizable, and CB is an option (don't really love CB it feels like a waste of it but it's definitely pretty good), unfamiliar with wish sets but recognize that intimidate wish with mence's stats and typing is gonna stonewall a good couple pokemon
I barely use Milotic but it stonewalls a ton, lives thunderbolts better than it should + it's a great status switch in with marvel scale
Starmie is my preferred spinner, offensive set hits everything with pump + boltbeam and defensive set can slow down a ton with twave spam and if you can get it in on a passive mon just recover back up and natural cure off the twave/toxic they probably threw at you. It feels like Starmie really wishes it had like 5 more base stats in defenses, since I feel the defensive sets have to choose between speed and folding a little too hard to strong neutral hits, but even though it's flawed I think Starmie provides a ton to teams
Dug is Dug, I think its effect on the tier is larger than its actual power within it but it's for sure a great mon
Suicune can really run away with things but its initial power being not too high lets the opponent get some counterplay out before you turn unkillable, if there was no leech seed or blissey I would hate to play against this mon
Im really high on Gyara, it's the first truly flawed Pokemon (and putting it this high might be overdoing it) but I think in conjunction with Salamence having two intimidaters is so valuable for offensive teams + against non-thunderbolt special attacks it has just enough bulk to setup or slam with a eq double edge or whatever hp it runs. Forcing non rock slide meta to boom/hit with a mediocre mash is a really great entry point too, especially on offensive teams where there often isn't a great switch to a meta
mag is mag, does its job great, i like opting out of magnet for whatever random tech you want, endure salac is great or hp fire for Forre
Forre has great tools with spike spin boom eq hpbug but it can get a bit awkward having to give up 1 of them (2 if you want zap cannon to slow win against skarm/ catch gar or various other swaps with paras) but the role compression is undeniable
Moltres/Charizard fire stab is scary, Moltres having wisp and a bit more power with zard having focus punch, sub petaya and dragon claw giving it more versatility, I feel they pretty often just clean up, zard 100 base speed is really great as well (moltres 90 is still good)
Flygon is weird to rank as like a levitating swampert? but it can run CB pretty well, 4x to ice isn't nearly as bad as it becomes later as well, levitating sand immune lets its ok bulk feel like great bulk
Snorlax is tough since it probably is worse than it feels when I use it, vulnerable to spikes sand leech para etc but if you can make it work its so hard to deal with, fighting stab just isn't horribly common, and if you run it then worst case you have stab boom off 110 attack
P2 also weird to rank since it's a strange combination of counter trapping + checking whatever it can (which is a decent amount) but I like using it
and it lets you play brazenly against dug since you don't have to worry about it picking off 3 of your mons
Don;t have a great idea of the real role of most of the mons below this so take these with a grain of salt
Hariyama knock can be huge in long games+thick fat giving it 2 more weaknesses (on top of being rock resist) makes it consistently useful
Breloom got spore + 130 attack pretty linear but spore is disgusting mach punch gives it a lot of usefulness as well
Regice is a strange off Blissey with stab ice beam + boom, spreads twave as well
Never really used Hera but stab megahorn is great + fighting stab (focus punch is great if you can get a sub up), but bad defensive typing + grounded sand weak really kills its longevity with its ok bulk
I feel like Jolteon is more pesky than good but maybe haven't played enough good players using it, outspeeding dug w access to bp lets you chuck it out there though, but not huge on Jolteon
Don't know anything beyond the basic what they dos of the rest of the mons, ordered very loosely. If you read this lmk what you think my view is mostly shaped by ladder + random tournament games I watch on youtube, tried to not be biased around the bad matchups of the teams I use
Viability Rankings made by someone very irrelevant/very dumb:
1 -
- Best mon in the tier by a long shot, even without considering Sand at first
- Best gatekeeper of silly Suicune/Snorlax nonsense
- Bulky DD+Double Edge is its best set, incredible at dealing with waters and providing a defensive safety net vs everything, hard to justify other sets compared to DDTar's Defense and Offense
- Pursuit is highly underrated and misunderstood, best use of Pursuit is actively shitting on Claydol/Starmie, Pursuit Ttar+Skarm/Forre is one of the most difficult combos to spin vs
- I often think the other Ttar sets are massively overrated while Suit and DD's viability is understated, its too hard to justify any other set bar those two often enough, even though all of SubPunch/Mix/4 attacks/CB have upside, they just often dont fit in enough teams or are splashable enough, they also tend to excel in some MUs while being way worse in others compared to the throught excellence in any MU of DD+Double Edge or Pursuit (usually with Brick Break), those sets are just useful in any MU, which is key with such a mon like Ttar, whose best quality is its consistency game to game
2 -
- I thought of other mons to rank at 2, but in my opinion Spikes Offense is the best style and it is at its most consistent with Toxic Skarm
- Skarm is excellent vs any spinner and excellent vs any MU, playing Skarm aggro is best
- HPSteel is underrated, makes for a great safety net vs lots of offenses, allows cute squads with AgiMeta/OffPert as the solo rock resist to exist more comfortambly
- Taunt+Toxic Skarmory is to me the best set in a margin, Gengar/Forre are pressurable and TauntTox is useful in every other situation
- Excellent SuitTtar partner, but DD+Skarm should not be out of consideration, DD can be oftentimes a necessity for its defensive utility in said offensive squads
- Skarm Balances/Stalls are still fine, they can just be a lot more exploitable into opposing Skarm teams funnily enough, thus they can be a bit tricky or weird to use
- Skarm+Dug+Dol kinda sucks, and so does SkarmMag, would say Skarm is at its best without trappers
3 -
- NECESSITY on spikeless offense, oftentimes you just lack the breaking power otherwise
- The best breaker in the entire tier, mash resists are just as important as rock resists
- Mixed is its most splashable set (Mash/Psy/Fire/Boom), very versatile and can pick up many KOes, gets a bunch of damage on Pert and a threat vs TSS in general (bar WishRachi stuff), still a threat in every single MU, even the Rachi TSS ones, easy to slap on any given team given its ability to actually threaten Skarm and softcheck Gar, while still doing the Ttar/Lax/Bliss check duties
- Agility is its best set for the same reasons Bulky DD, the offense and defense is insane, versatility on last move is also great, Slide is a more all in approach which should only be used with Spikes while Boom is the most splashable one which can fit in a lot of offenses or even Spikes Balance alike, Spikes Offense with Zard can also appreciate Agi Boom for its ability to boom waters, basically speaking Agility is like having a 2nd Bulky DDTar while ur Bulky DDTar is great early-mid game, this Meta is excellent mid-late game, its also a much better cleaner, excellent mon for many reasons
- Protect sets are mid, they usually are used in Balance teams that use Meta as their rock resist but honestly those teams are always flawed as hell and Bulky DDTar is excellent vs those, on Offenses that use Meta as their only rock resist, Agility is better for its flexibility and potential to just clean up endgames or be able to clean up MUs that would be hard otherwise, Protect is also a Meta that breaks less than other Metas, which sucks considering Meta is the best breaker of the tier, and unlike AgiSlide, whos upside is being the best cleaner of the tier, Protect's upside seems really unclear to me bar owning Aero which you can do in a myriad of ways
- CB feels mid too (its still miles better than Protect sets), I understand why ppl like it and it can be beastly, but I think Mix has just overall better and undisputed flexibility, the tier is very well prepared for Mash spam and while CB can 1 on 1 vs every mon, the Mag weakness is a great downside, its also Dug weak, and the fact it doesnt heal w Lefties can be a hinderance vs Aero too, it can be really great though and the Boom 5v5 potential at lead is incredible, but theres a lot of ways to bypass CBMeta and i generally prefer the flexibility of Mix, I also feel Mix gets damage on Pert more consistently than CB, whos best use is damaging up Skarm, im not a fan of turning games into 5v5 w Houdini bc I never feel its that huge of a advantage, CB Mash Spam has the chances of just fucking up games though, especially considering Mash raises, its trading ability might be great, maybe deserves a higher eval than what I have right now
- Mash/EQ/Grass/Boom is a set more specific to Mag and some niche Spikeless Offense teams but its severely underrated and beastly, its the best thing vs SkarmPertBliss once Skarm is gone, theres usually 0 good switchins, it booms Zap very consistently and gets a ton of mileage, the only true problem is its splashability and Skarm issue, but on the teams its on, its a incredible set, use it more
- I dont like Toxic/Slide on Mash/EQ/Boom sets anymore, but maybe they have use, who knows, I have been wrong abt shit my entire life, I just think Grass is better most of the time
- I dont like Mashless Mix sets anymore, Mash is the tool that lets u check Ttar/Lax/Bliss and that is usually Meta's job in Offenses, while TP/EQ/Grass can get a lot of surprise booms/kills, it usually isnt worth dropping the unmatched consistency of Mash/Psy/Fire for this upside
4 -
- The Goat. The king of consistency itself
- OffPert is a really great threat vs SkarmBliss, incredible pressure with those deceptively powerful Hydro Pumps
- Great softcheck to many Ttars, Metas, Aeros, Mences, etc
- EndPert is massively underrated, its trading ability is top notch, ability to just tech in random 4th moves is great too, play it like a Snorlax for physical attackers
- People overstate Milo/Cune weakness, Atk invest EQ is great at pressuring with spikes down, Roar is also good on defensive sets
- Curse is still the de facto standard OffPert to me, being able to shit on DefStar is really great and winning lategame vs BoldCune/Lax is also amazing, Focus Punch and Refresh are interesting options, though, food for thought. Protect OffPert is the OffPert to use if its ur only rock resist, thus being the 2nd best OffPert, its nice on some Skarm Offenses, generally I prefer Curse though with Jira/Meta, but Protect can unlock some really great structures
- Defensive sets are good but I generally feel they want Spin of some kind and Spinners suck, Defensive Tect Hydro is outclassed by Tect OffPert imo on Spinless teams, the best Defensive sets usually have a support move like Roar, Toxic, Refresh which makes it have a great upside move that turns some MUs upside down, the Tect/Roar/Surf/Focus set might be ultimately underrated, maybe EQ>Focus is also a tad underrated
- +Atk Pert is perhaps a cool tech for some Curseless sets, not much Atk invest but just a +Atk nature to better pressure Mie/Milo/Cune, especially Sandless, s/o Lew for the tech, it may be good but im not ultimately convinced
5 -
- Mix is its best set, Dclaw/Flame/Grass/Brick does a lot of defensive decompression at once, incredible in Forry squads, Skarm squads also heavily appreciate it, its best quality is also unironically checking any phys attacker bar Meta, offering lots of defensive flexibility in game, can check CMers somewhat but not reliable at this
- Cute techs on Mix are cool, Roar is my favorite to help down with Cune or CelePass MUs, Wish is nice for some Forry squads, going even further in some of the defensive decompression, I think Grass is better though mostly because Mence can be a really good Pert pivot with its unique set of resistances, be careful though with IB on the switchin, that can be a legit play in lots of scenarios
- DD is a threat, ruins Dug squads like nothing else, incredible vs SkarmDug (esp with Brick Break), needs heavy anti Skarm though so its best to use with stuff that gets damage into it, great SuitTar partner and underrated Spikes abuser, Cele is also a nice partner for its ability to damage Skarm, MixMeta is a classical partner for the same reasons too, best used with softchecks to both Gengar and MixMence
- CB sucks, sorry. I just cant understand it, SkarmMag is a meh style that I havent seen in a while and everytime I use it, it sucks heavily, CBMence just doesnt have that good breaking power, its heavily fucked by SuitTar, Meta is a great absorber of it and use it as a way to get in to either do heavy damage or sweep
- Fat wish sets dont have a clear upside tbh, if u want Wish, use it as filler on MixMence, it "checks" Hera till Hera is faster, SDes on switch and slides u to high heaven, honestly I have considered +SpD but you literally only check Zard and nothing else with a fat SpD set, you "can" check Celebi with that but honestly Cele just trucks you with Leech Seed+Psychic SpD drops and you just dont progress enough, its better to just use MixMence 99% of the time
6 -
- I was wondering heavily on the 5th/6th/7th/8th/9th positions but I came to a conclusion I like Jirachi more than the others nowadays
- Super is GREAT. Like legit underrated set, never see ppl mention it that much but Bulky Super's ability to simply burst through Bliss is incredible, its also amazing at trading vs tanks like Ttar/Meta/Lax, Fast Super is a good cleaner with its 299 Spe and incredible power, Dug weak can be ass but Jira makes it work with how threatning it is and how players can never be sure to dug a 100% Jirachi, Super just has that coverage and that potential to burst through any pokemon bar CM Flame Bliss (which kinda sucks), amazing mon
- Mix is also great, im lower on it this time around cuz I think CM is a bit more splashable because I dont really believe on Thunder on Mix sets anymore, Bslam/Fire/Grass/DPunch is a amazing set that ppl genuinely underrate because "MUH DPUNCH IS 50% ACCURACY XD!!" but DP is much more consistent when u realize Bslam makes it a Bliss check in some way, esp vs Twaveless Bliss, Bslam is also a incredible chip tool esp alongside Spikes, Bslam can lure down any flier and ruin it for the rest of the match, its incredible vs Ttar/Meta/Pert/Bliss because of the Fire+Grass coverage paired with 60% Para + DPunch, secret is that with Spikes, you dont need to DPunch Ttar, just HPGrass it down with Spikes, Bslam+HPGrass can also hax down Mie/Milo while Bslam+Dpunch makes it much more consistent vs Bliss, its ability to just BS through its checks via Bslam Hax makes it super threatning, the reason im lower on Mix despite all its amazing qualities, even defenive ones such as pivoting on Meta's Mash or Aero's Slide/Dedge is because Bslam MixRachi is unfortunately very ruined by Gengar, which makes SuitTar almost a necessary partner, or a lot of Gar checks like RestZap+Bliss+Fire (they all appreciate Jirachi's ability to trade into Meta/Ttar/Pert/Lax more immediately than Super) and the fact it wants Spikes for consistency, making it more limited in teams you can fit, dont get mistaken, Mix+SuitTar on Spikes teams is incredibely threatning
- Wish sets always felt a bit meh, they dont make use of Jirachi's best qualities, which are its incredible offensive prowess, but its a solid wall, it can check the dangerous Special attackers like Zap/Mie but honestly, its too status weak and not fast or dangerous enough to make a splash, Wish/Tect/Slam/Fire is alright but its Status weakness is too dire, SubZap can also EV for it which hurts and Slam is worse than Tox vs Ttar/Pert, +Def sets dont really hardcheck anything, while softchecking Meta is a great upside, it often still takes too much damage vs Ttar/Pert/Meta with spikes down, its not fast or dangerous enough again and can get easily exploited by Cune/SubZap, CelePass also uses it as fodder, I used to like Wish 3A more but then I wanted something faster and stronger vs SkarmPert so I went up with Mix instead, Wish sets also have the same issue as Bslam Mix in the sense that they WANT SuitTar a lot of the time and thus are limited in teams they can fit, especially since lots of the team that would like WishRachi also like MixRachi, and I would prefer Mix for its dangerous threat level and speed more, especially since its also more immediate at trading
- 2 move coverage + CM sets are utterly overrated and suck, Sub/CM/IP/Tbolt is easily checked by all the most dangerous mons in the tier (Ttar/Meta/Pert) and Sub/CM/Tbolt/Grass now sucks vs CMCele and Mence, while still being softchecked by Ttar and Meta, you will never have perfect coverage besides maybe Psychic+Water but Water Pulse is never really that dangerous vs most of its targets and doesnt do enough damage without Spikes + walled by Skarm, while PsyFire is walled by Ttar which if the player is careful, will be very difficult to trap with Dug, WishCM is too easily cooked by any status and doesnt have the same danger level as Super and doesnt get as much 6-0 MUs as Sub, 3 move coverage is just better and more consistent at trading and being dangerous in game, I can understand Sub's ability to own Stall but theres better pokemon that are better vs most things in the meta for that, also btw CM 2 attacks Jirachi sucking vs CM Fire Punch Jirachi in the mirror is also a joke, being checked by their own Jirachi may be by far the worst thing which is why I generally consider Fire Punch almost a autoinclude on Jirachis, though experimenting with other sets may work
- CB might be cute, spamming Bslam is def a strat and it could work on Spikeless as a type of OffBeat MixRachi, invest a lot more in SpA if ur using CB and use Fire Punch there, though.
7 -
- Insanity hot take (pun intended)
- Zard is basically MixMence's cousin, it trades ability to defensive decompress vs Ttar/Pert to better deal with CMers/Meta/MixMence/Gengar, incredible in squads that are soft vs those, its also much more potent offensively
- Underrated on Spikes teams, especially defensive Spikes teams like Forre, its ability to pivot into dangerous threats like Gengar is also appreciated, Offense also appreciates it for those same reasons, it can fit on Spikeless much more easily than Mence and be much more threatning/not rely on Spikes to be threatning
- Dclaw is overhated, its ability to hit MixMence and Flygon is great, 1v1ing MixMence is good for a lot of squads that Zard fits on and with Spikes its not that difficult to put Ttar into Zard range, though it is a worry and with SuitTar coming into the forefront again, its a fair worry, still, theres too much hate on Dclaw when its a fine move
- Sub sets trade up Flame/Dclaw/Grass/BeatUp's consistency (best set imo) for a even better TSS and Ttar MU, the ability to negate DDTar setup is amazing, and its still great vs Bliss with Focus Punch, its great for MU dividing squads cuz it almost soloes TSS all by itself, incredibely threatning, pair up with mons that can softcheck MixMence and DDMence better though, as it no longer has the ability to take out Mence from 60%s, it also no longer can almost solo Superman (once Flygon is chipped into Dclaw range, which is easily attainable with Dedge Ttar) so be prepared for that
- Underrated partner is SuitTar cuz Zard+Suit can reliably remove Aero for a lot of partners (Celebi, Jirachi, etc)
8 -
- The best special wall in the game
- I was gonna rank this 5 but it has dissapointed me lately, it being passive vs Skarm/Meta/Ttar/Pert is incredibely bad, and those are some of the dangerous mons to give room for, theres no good solution either, all feel somewhat flawed in how you deal with those mons and those mons are difficult to deal with to begin, instead of offensively outplay like you have to do with Cele/Zap, you are constantly forced to outplay defensively-wise which is never rly great cuz its a sign of being in the backfoot, mainly because the best answers to those mons generally are not offensive (bar Skarm, but Skarm ruins a lot of its offensive answers with Tox), that is one aspect of Bliss thats been bothering me lately
- Tox Fire/Tox Tbolt are the sets I most enjoy, especially since they can pressure Skarm/Meta better and Tox helps vs Pert/Ttar, but it still needs help vs Suicune, which is another difficulty of using Blissey, CM fixes these but BoltBeam lets in Ttar/Meta/Pert too easily, which can turn dire real quick
- TW+Stoss with a spinner is great, but fitting spinners can be real tricky, hazard removal usually sucks imo, but TW+Stoss has enough upside, I like TW/Tox+Stoss, but you need to be careful of Dug/Gar when using this set, TW+IB is still great
- Dug is a worry, tho I believe its a bit overstated, dealing with the tanky phys attackers is usually worse imo
- CM has a great partner in MixRachi, MixRachi lures lots of CM's answers to get chipped with spikes down, if using CMBliss, I reccomend MixRachi/Seed 3 Cele for the ability to overload those dangermons in Ttar/Meta/Pert and also overload Skarm, also SuitTar with Brick Break for the same reasons
- Forre is great at enabling Bliss, as is Spin in general, but I generally like Forre for role compression, Forre with offensive-esque Bliss sets (Tox Fire, Tox Bolt) is underrated, so is CM on those teams
- Generally not a fan of Spikeless Bliss, but have thought about it and have thought of a CMBliss positional approach, I think theres too many roadblocks for that to work though
- 3 attacks may be interesting with lots of Bliss lures, especially since HPGrass is great at limiting Pert
9 -
- I was gonna rank this much higher, but I feel those Zap as special wall Spikes teams are getting worse and worse by the day
- Zap is great, the best Suicune check in the game, it checks about anything that uses special attacks really, Mie/Zap/Mence/Gar/etc, but the problem is it can only really do it once or twice
- Bulky Offensive Zapdos is still great, but I feel the teams have been on a down spiral thanks to various factors, esp SuitTar, which really punishes El Classico (Zap/Skarm/Tar/Gar/Pert/Aero) for example
- Timid Zap is underrated, outspeeding MixMence/Zap/Zard/Jirachi/Celebi is great, heck even tying with them, Roar is a great option as it makes it break Bliss better with Spikes down and also deals with CelePass
- Random techs like Metal Sound (helps vs lastmon/endgame situations vs Blissey), Rain Dance (resets weather for CuneLax) and Protect without Toxic (scouts Aero, deals with Boom Dol/Meta) are underrated and deserve more usage
- SubPass Zap is great, subpassing to Ttar/Meta/etc is a great way to enable threats in Spikes and Spikeless alike, drypassing is mid but passing a Sub is great at making momentum and punishing dishonest builds
- RestZap is a bit middling, its a good set still but it can sometimes fall flat a bit, in Sand it can be very exploitable with Ttar and OffPert, sometimes it gets those MUs where they literally cant touch you, greatest punisher of Status-heavy Spikes teams, the SubTox Rest set is quite cool but im not quite convinced by it, usually I prefer Grass on Rest sets for OffPert, and Metal Sound is a nice tech on RestZap teams since they usually struggle vs Lax/Bliss due to the fact of them being sandless
- Bold is underrated, its a nice way to soft patch Aero/DDMence/Meta, its amazing in Superman squads for its ability to 1v1 Lax with Metal Sound+Tbolt and also help Flygon at dealing with Meta and DDMence, I usually use Rest/MS/Tbolt+Hidden power of choice, usually being Ice for DDMence, but can also be Grass in some squads, it can also be used in some cutesy Meta solo rock resist offenses for this reason, though maybe those like Protect>Rest better
10 -
- Defensive sets suck lmao. They are usually too passive and spike bait, sometimes though they can get that juicy 6-0 MU, I prefer using Recover on Modest sets but even then lately I havent found justifications for doing this
- Leech 3 Attacks is the GOAT. I was a bit down on it then realized why it was good again, its the best trader vs Meta/Ttar/Skarm which is invaluable, its also incredible at enabling AgiSlide Meta and Bulky DDTar, it can check Zap/Gar/Mie, dangerous threats for Offense and pressure down Bliss TSS teams much better than Zap, all of that and its also better at switching into Pert, its underrated in Spikeless or even Bliss teams bc of its ability to trade with dangermons and Skarm, while using Pert as free bait, Celebi is best used when you can rely on it offensively instead of defensively thus why Leech 3 is the GOAT, may get a higher ranking depending on what happens next
- CelePass is good, if not underrated, ppl usually have lots of beef w CelePass (for good reasons, to be fair), the 2 move coverage on CM sucks, doesnt check Gar anymore, and its bad vs fliers, SD sets also have the coverage problem while being terrible vs Skarm, SubSeed is the best Pass set but it has issues with fitting into teams + Skarm still stands, CelePass however is underrated for a couple reasons, its the best way to beat dishonest teambuilding, CMPass is also still good into the dangermons and helps enhance some mons further (Zard/Zap/OffMie/SuitTar/MixMeta/Jirachi, etc), CMPass also still does most of Leech 3 duties or even Super, but it has that unique statpassing upside that lets it punish greedy structures, SubSeed is EXCELLENT, its fast and it subseed stalls literally everything, not only that but SubPass helps at enabling AgiMeta/DDTar/DDMence free setup, and with Recover it still checks Zapdos and others quite well (except Gar), SubPassing to any mon is great, and Cele makes better abuse of Sub than even Zap does thanks to the annoyance of SubSeed and its excellent 328 Speed, vs opposing Cele, passing to Ttar/Meta/Zard/Mence does the trick, you can even try SubPassing to Gengar, which exploits the hell out of Claydol, by being able to SubPass on a Spin, Skarm can be a problem but you can abuse it with Zard/Gar/Zap and etc, even fit on Mag teams and ball, SDPass is mostly on Mag teams but also can similarly punish greedy teams, I have the least experience on this set but I also think you could maybe use it in a similar approach like SubSeed, where you use it with a bunch of Skarm lures or heavy hitters and enjoy the benefits, its interesting, thats for sure
- Super sucks. Its usually outdone by Seed 3 or CMPass as those have better upside imo, its also still usually fucked by the same things except you add Blissey to the list and boosting up changes practically nothing, its a terrible sweeper/cleaner and its not a great breaker compared to Seed 3, and if you want to beat down DefBi teams, CMPass is better at that anyway
- 328 CMPass with Giga+HPElec coverage is a interesting set, food for thought
11 -
- Suicune is king of bullshit.
- Gets a lot of great MUs where it can just flat 6-0, Sub sets are the best because they break Blissey without using passive move Rest
- Rest Modest is fine but usually outclassed by Sub, I think the Calm Rest is hype is a bit meh, its alright at best, but its still getting fucked by usual tactics (Zap, Spikes, DDTar, etc)
- Suicune is at its best when used as just a offensive mon, relying on it defensively leads to structural problems, same deal as Celebi, except Suicune is much worse at defensive duties than Celebi is
- Its more inconsistent than ppl give credit for, it can have the 1 move it needs in the MU and autowin, or dont have it and be useless the rest of the game
- Bold Rest Roar maybe a bit underrated and due a comeback, but the set just kinda sucks tbh
- CroCune has similar issues, its a fine mon and deserves to be explored further thanks to its godlike MU vs TSS but it still has near to 0 defensive utility since if it rests, it can be a bit useless + reliant on stalk rolls + beaten by Cele/Zap/Mence which is bad, still, deserves more usage bc its very threatning by itself and its often less passive/better than Rest IB, still worse than Sub IB though
- OffCune is a bitch and fun ruiner, but is the 2nd most consistent Suicune behind Sub, use Toxic or HPGrass last move, I dont think Roar is usually worth it, especially since Cune doesnt rly fit on Spikes teams
- Cune+Dol is meh, but maybe its better than I thought
12 -
- Yup. Please be mad at Gengar 12th, I enjoy that.
- I often dont like Gar, 75% is obviously a factor but I genuinely believe thats overstated as hell, my true beef with Gar is that its honestly just weak, unstabbed boltbeam is sad, and it often fails to threaten KOes and some of its answers arent even affected by Spikes, because of the fact its not that strong, a lot of things can just stay in and do heavy damage into it, any type of chip makes Gengar's bulk benchmarks pretty mediocre, but without those bulk benchmarks, Gengar is way more inconsistent, Zard/Zap/Mie/Cune/Cele/Ttar/Meta/Pert and others can easily stay in on Gengar and do heavy damage, even if its coverage is super effective, this makes it a bit worse vs Offense than other fliers, not to mention that Pursuit Ttar is super annoying and that because of it you often need a extra ground immune with Gar, as it can never be your only ground immune imo, which makes it harder because that means Gengar fits on some sort of Flex slot instead of flier slot, and sometimes on the Flex slot for TSS ud want something like a steel or another flier, it sucks that its hard to make Gar+Steel (Jira/Meta) work because of this
- That said, Gar's still a potent threat, ESPECIALLY vs Stall, it should not be understated how dangerous Gar is to any stall team, with Wisp+Taunt (its best set), it shits on every single Stall mon, from Bliss/Milo/Cune/Skarm to Dol/Lax/etc, Gar helps keep em up and also burns Dol for your Ttar to go wild and even use it as setup, one quality of Gar is also its ability to check MixMence, a dangerous threat, and when everything is below half, it also starts being a threat to a lot, wisp ruins a lot of stuff! Most things dont want to take a burn longterm which may make things hard for Balance/Stall alike, problem is Offense can usually choose a mon to "sack" and outpressure Gar, putting it into any cleaner's range or using pivots like Zard or Cele
- Best mon at limiting broken ass Snorlax, which could be too broken if wasnt for Gar's existence forcing it to run a otherwise useless move
- I dont like Boom sets, I think Gengar's best quality is shitting on Stall, so I use Taunt for that, I get Boom's flexibility but generally speaking I think Taunt has more value
- Wisp/Taunt/Giga/Tbolt Calm (+SpD, -Atk) is underrated, its the best Gengar can get at fucking up Stall while also beating up Forry teams, excellent MU divider and also a great Swampert switch-in, should be used more, I get the Fat Modest sets but I really like this one
13 -
- The GOAT of Spikeless
- Great breaker, able to damage up Ttar/Meta is amazing, it can also chip Gar for dangerous threats
- Curse/Dedge/Sball/EQ is its best set, its great at breaking down pieces and a monster at beating Fat down, Dedge does about 33% to Skarm while boosted, making it a excellent Skarm lure, EQ helps it trade vs Meta/Ttar and Sball rounds out the set to beatdown Gengar and the odd Misdreavus
- Always pair Lax up with Cele or Zap so you don't rely on Lax to beat special attackers and thus can enjoy it for its breaking prowess
- Underrated partner is OffMie, provides emergency spin+speed to Lax teams, most OffMie checks dont like dealing with Lax either
- Lax+Dol is still solid
- Lax Spikes is underrated, it pairs quite nicely with Cloy for its emergency spin + the fact Cloy can play in a more yolo approach where you just attack and boom, Spikes damage up Lax's best checks (Meta/Ttar) and help it put into +1 boosted attacks damage
- Rest Lax is still a threat, but ultimately inconsistent, always account for this mon or else it will get fucked
- Mag+Lax teams are overhated, they still work fine especially if you have Zap or Cele
- Lax+Dug is maybe underexplored
14 -
- Best revenge killer in the tier
- Good gatekeeper of nonsense, though that quality is overstated
- SuitTar's presence hurts, so does stuff like AgiMeta, SteelSkarm, DDMence and Protect Zap
- Still a great mon with Cele or Zap enabling it, just a bit lower on it this time around since I like stuff like Zard/Mence on those teams and those usually occupy the Aero slot, I also think they are overall better defensively
- Aero locks can suck, but a good builder/player should be able to overcome those
- SubLiechi sucks, its a bad cleaner compared to AgiMeta and doesnt have the throughout excellence of CB
- Spikeless CB Aero is also pretty mediocre, outclassed by DDMence 99% of the time
- Good spikes abuser, still excellent, just feels a bit more flawed than the mons above it due to the nature of CB locks and the fact the meta is always super well prepared for it, even so, it still gets to win games
15 -
- Same deal as Aero
- Trapping Ttar/Meta/Cele/Rachi/etc is SUPER valuable
- Number 1 reason Stall can even work
- Good on offense as well, Dug Off is a overhated archetype
- Dug Spikes should be Spinless and get greedy trying to push gamestates where Dug picks KO after KO
- CB locks and such, with EQ being a super terrible lock makes it very exploitable, thus why its a bit lower than the other mons, said locks can be overstated though, good Dug teams always account for those and try to make Dug as consistent as possible
16 -
- OffMie is a DEMON vs Offense, please use Surf, you will not regret it, Surf/Ice/Tbolt is great coverage
- Most underrated aspect of OffMie is its emergency spin ability, helps support stuff like Lax/Cune/Cele and Bulky DDTar/AgiMeta
- One of the best MixMence checks, also excellent at picking off Bulky DDTar at 60%s, making it a nice mon to use in Meta as only rock resist Offenses
- Underrated partner is SuitTar for both Aero and being able to chip down Gar into Surf range
- Hydro/IB/Psychic/Spin is a underexplored set maybe, Psychic helps on Gar-weak teams while Hydro keeps the damage vs Skarm, if your team doesnt need the help picking off Bulky DDTar, I can see this being a great pick, mostly for Spikeless Lax teams as well
- I hate DefStar and I will not say anything about it other than its important to cover it in the builder but thats so fkin easy that if u lose to DefStar you should be ashamed of yourself
17 -
- Underrated mon
- DefGon is excellent, I like using Tectless sets as in Tox/EQ/RS/Fire Blast, 3hkoing Skarm with Fire Blast is good enough in my eyes, considering you are not affected by Spikes like Spinless Hydro DefPert, and you keep up pressure vs Skarm with it
- Tect/Tox/EQ/Slide is still fine, Screech>Tox for random lastmons may be cool, great on Superman obviously and on teams where you dont need the Skarm pressure as much and would rather be solid vs Aero
- Pair up with normal resists to help vs Aero, DE spam from Aero can be awnkard otherwise
- Flygon+Dug Spikes is underrated, Flygon is the best mon at helping Dug achieve a state of KO after KO while also not caring too much abt Skarm's Spikes and being solid vs Ttar, Dug helps picking off Meta and CMers who r dangerous
18 -
- Jolt is a great alternative to Zap/Cele on Spikes Offense
- SubPass is its best set, obvious reasons already detailed on Zap
- Jolt is the best at enabling wacky Ttar sets like Mix or CB, but you still use Bulky DD with it most of the time
- Does not need Gengar as ppl like to say it does, playing vs Dol is easier than ppl say it is, especially if u can Sub up on the switchin
- Incredible defensive compression as it checks Zap/Gar/Mie/Cune/Zard in a pinch, it cant reliably switchin into the STAB attacks of Zard or Cune/Mie but it still can pivot on weaker attacks and do its thing
- Spikeless Jolt is underrated, SubPass gives enough upside if you pair it with dangerous breakers and it allows for unique builds thanks to its unique settings of defensive qualities
19 -
- Forre is great.
- Ppl often overhate Forre for the silliest reasons, its a fine pokemon, the defensive compression is good for Bliss teams
- HPBug is able to pressure Spinners much more easily and faster than Skarm does
- Needs SuitTar unfortunately, think Forre+Dol takes suck because they are too passive into Skarm
- Great at resetting the tempo vs Skarm
- Too outplay reliant at times and can be very hard to pilot, high ceiling unfortunately and much less comfortamble to use than Skarm
- SkarmGar can be hellish if you dont play the sequences right
- Zard is underrated in Forre squads, the synergy of those two is insane, though most often Forre squads need MixMence
- The flexibility on Forre builds is a bit low due to the requirements one needs to make Forre worth the effort, which is why its lower in this list, though I think you could rise this up a couple ranks, so 19th is not my definitive opinion
20 -
- Mag is good, Mag teams can be underwhelming
- Mag is useful outside of Skarm, it can switch-in into Gar/Zap semi-reliably and trap Meta, its understated how often that comes up for Mag teams
- I usually prefer building my teams in such a way where I do not need to slot Mag because I prefer having 6 strongmons on Spikeless usually (same deal with Dug, I forgot to mention that)
- Mag Off is still overhated however, its a fine style, especially on the way it enables different Cele/Meta sets and makes Lax even better in Stall MUs
- Mag+Dol kinda sucks, two mons that dont achieve much and often lead to a passive style thats cooked by DDTar or Cele, usable to fish vs Bliss TSS players, esp those who dont Gengar or DDTar often in their Bliss teams
21 -
- Underrated mon again
- Play this shit more aggro and you will not regret it, click Surf/Boom more often than u click Spikes
- Think of Cloy teams as MixOff with the potential to Spike and think of Cloy as another threat rather than a pure Spiker for the above to work better
- Emergency spin is a understated quality, makes sure you can do lots of stuff vs Skarm
- BEST quality is chipping down Skarm for its teammates, Modest Surf hits hard
- Flawed in Spiking, doesnt Spike as well as you would want it to, suffers from not having enough EVs to do its job most of the time
- Focus more on attacking as previously stated, thats how you remedy from Cloy's flaws
- Similar case to Forre where I think this can be ranked higher but not sure currently
22 -
- Yup. Below Cloyster
- I think this guy feels a bit meh, its problems is being outsped by Jira/Cele, softchecked by Skarm, and cooked lategame by MixMence/Zard/Aero, it also is worse vs Stall than ppl say it is, it looks "great" but Stall can handle it via SkarmDug pretty often
- SD Lefties feels meh, I used to think that was the most consistent and best set, but it just has 0 defensive utility and it has problems hitting the field, its still softchecked by all of the above too
- While Hera is the WOAT defensively, it is the GOAT offensively, thus I think Hera is a major player for Spikeless Offenses, as it is a mon which has the OHKO power vs anything, Salac to me is its best set for this exact reason, it has the power of Swarm Megahorn and fixes the Speed issue, pair up with something like RD Zap and go to town
- Megahorn sucks, but ppl overstate that, its much better than Hydro lol, the true problem again is its lack of defense which is why its so low in my list, its defensive utility is TOO LOW and it cant fit on Spikes teams ever too, making it even more limited than ever
- Bulky sets could be good, idt so though as I think its best to make Hera's offensive qualities out of there instead of trying to squeeze defensive niches out of it
- Salac is a deadly mon vs Offense and Defense alike, I think its best with Focus Punch>SD for Skarm, though with Mag, SD is alright, still, I believe Hera is best on 6 strongmons Spikeless teams
23 -
- Milo is alright, I submit
- It is a nice mon, usually outclassed by Suicune offensively and its kinda meh defensively, it does have some great niches at being able to sponge Ttar semi decently and cook Meta/Pert
- Its bulk + Toxic + Recover + Water STAB makes it a deceptively strong threat, be careful or you get cooked by this with a Spike up
- Forre+Milo is underrated, Milo helps to fix a lot of the "Mixed Attacker issue" Forre teams face, imo
- Milo oftentimes needs a spinner unfortunately, and the best fit is Claydol (if you dont want to use Forre), Skarm+Dol Milo is fine, but usually weak to something/can feel wack cuz sandless
- Milo+Mag is cool, maybe I explore it little, maybe its underexplored when Cune+Mag is used by many players
24 -
- I think Claydol is super mediocre
- It does some really good role compression, the problem is its not good offensively at all, it doesnt consist any threat, its passive outside of Boom and its EQ needs lots of investment and even then it STILL can be weak, not to mention needing Psychic for Gar means its pretty much useless vs Zap/Mence outside of Boom, it does a bunch of stuff but it does all of it in a dogshit level
- For that reason, Dol is able to unlock many unique playstyles, and I think thats Dol inherent strenght, its able to unlock many good mons to the next level, but you gotta question, is it worth to use Claydol to unlock those mons potential? Is it worth it to use a mon thats incredibely do nothing by nature for this? For the most consistent and gamewinning playstyles, the answer is no, thats why you barely see Claydol in Cele/Zap Spikes Offenses, but since Bliss's potential can be so absurd without Spikes in the picture, Dol can fit in nicely to enable some Bliss Spikes structures, same reasoning applies to Cune or Lax Spikeless Offense teams, where SpinDol is a "Mag-esque pokemon" in my eyes, fullfilling a support role to defensive decompress Suicune, helping dealing with Ttar/Aero/Zap/Gar while giving the Spin support needed for those two to go to next level
- That is why I truly believe the best Claydols may as well be +SpD or +Def, because in that way, you can use Claydol for its defensive attributes, instead of trying to make it more of a threat artificially with +Atk, its still getting owned by Skarm/Zap/Mence/Cele/etc if it doesnt Boom (which is annoying cuz that means you can never go 2 for 1, which is true of Claydol in general) so taking more hits to get and Spin or just temporarily absorb hits so Cune/Lax/Bliss dont have to take em is good, and being able to take more hits is great for a role like this, which is why +SpD or +Def
25 -
- Quag is great, yes.
- Its good as a Swampert-replacement on Forre teams, its able to dissuade Hydro Pump from Swampert which is key for those squads, as Pert is super annoying for them, its also great at walling down Milo (another annoyance) for those teams and walling down MonoCune, thus you can safely use CMBliss on Quag squads as a Cune safety-net, as well as the fact Quag beats OffPert, a mon that usually uses CMBliss as fodder
- Quag is better at cleaning lategame than Pert is
- Theres only 1 Quag set: Curse/Rest/EQ/IB with Max HP Max Def Relaxed, everything else is dogshit
- Quag's bulk is genuinely underrated, it still does Pert's duties just fine, you will need a bit more pivoting but nothing too crazy, its still as reliable as Swampert
- Squishy specially really shows vs Psychic Meta for example, be careful of other Mixed Attackers as Quag's SpD can be unreliable at times, lacks stats overall
- A bit passive vs Skarm teams at times, run something like Zard with it to make up for this
26 -
- Yes, below QUAGSIRE THE GOAT
- I have beef w this pokemon, it looks really good at first, great bulk, great attacking stats, solid speed and all, but it has a lot of problems, first is that every single offensive mon just creeps for this and it suddenly becomes haywire, its usually the slowest of the fliers and it ONLY fits on the flier slot, which Zard usually does better in Spikes+Ttar because of POINT 2, Molt is super reliant on Gar to break down and be consistent vs Bliss in general, compared to Zard which needs practically very minor support, unlike Zard, it also cant really fit on Spikeless unless you are fine with it being useless vs Bliss teams but unlike Starmie, which provides that emergency spin support even on its useless MUs on spikeless, Molt... doesnt do much noteworthy? Idk, also offenses can usually pivot out and unlike vs Zard, they have the speed advantage, and please, its not like Zard is lacking in power lol, the only times Zard is truly "lacking" is vs Milo on Spikes teams, but thats minor anyway and its not like Molt handles it that better, Molt having the better bulk means its better at checking itself and Zard, which may be a cool defensive niche, while still having the qualities that make Zard so excellent and the Meta pivot, which it arguably does it better than Zard, but its speed and lack of immediate Bliss-breaking tools is a flaw imo
- What really makes this stand out than Zard is Will-O-Wisp IMO, it helps a lot in Sandless TSS at dealing with Lax, it also means its much less of fodder to Ttar than Zard is, its better bulk helps Stallish structures a lot too, also the ability to fit Roar for CelePass, also easily the number 1 enemy to PhysOff, makes for a fine mon in those squads, I usually think they r a bit meh myself, but the problem with Moltres isnt that its a bad mon, far from contrary, its pretty good, but when building, you just want something faster than it in most Spikes Offense because it takes that Flier/Fastmon slot and in Ttar+Bliss TSS, you still want that something fast to help you be able to outplay some MUs more easily
- Wisp+Tox maybe? Would help at breaking down Bliss and being less reliant on Gar+Spike for it maybe... I dont know, I dont really feel I fit this mon in very often, it just doesnt have what im looking for most of the time
- Molt+Dug is underrated, great combo actually, Wisp Molt is able to put Ttar/Lax more easily into Dug range and both fit pretty nicely on Spikes Sandless structures, I think thats the future for Molt imo
- Could be ranked higher, but right now, im super low on it, I think though if I can get Molt+Dug+Spikes working, it could be a very potent mon for said Balanceish/Stallish teams, where they make the best use of its qualities
27 -
- Raikou is actually underrated
- Good mon for Bliss Sandless TSS for its unmatched ability to fuck ZapDug and MixOff alike, incredible at getting random 6-0s and the fact it can lategame check Zap/Gar/Mie/Cune is also great for those Bliss squads as it allows them to play Bliss more recklessly, Spikes also makes Kou's cleaning strat way more consistent, I reccomend Modest
- Great vs El Classico and Zap as special wall type of builds, incredibely anti-meta in this aspect, once again, the great "Oh Fuck" button for Offense teams, as they usually rely on Ttar+Zap to handle the electrics, or Lax, and with Spikes down, Kou goes crazy
- Kou's fits are limited at best... It has Molt syndrome in the sense that it has 0 tools for Bliss and the fact that most often, esp on Spikes Offense, you just want something faster (not trapped by Dug) or bulkier+levitating (not trapped by Dug), see where im going? Zap and Jolt, they also have tools for Bliss in the form of Roar, Toxic, SubPassing for the former and SubPassing for the latter and while Cele is trappable, it switches into Pert and has tools to deal with Bliss in Leech Seed + is not trapped at 100%, thus why Kou kinda just fits on Spikes Balance as a anti-offense pick, its true that CM Modest can burst through statusless Stoss Bliss but those sets usually suck imo, Kou has a 2nd fit in P2 Hyper Offense, which is actually a pretty fine playstyle, use Kou with CelePass to have that support, no Dug, just get Cele in and try to rack up boosts and pass to Kou, can even be Leech 3 Cele + Breakers, thus MU dividing with Kou, P2+Kou is generally a bit underexplored due to being a tricky style to both pilot and build, but its legit
- Kou may have a niche on MixOff or Dug Off, though honestly usually been underwhelmed by it on those teams
28 -
- Good and underrated mon
- Usually fits best on fast tempo Offenses that use this as a Dug Stall measure + can reset the tempo a bit defensively vs Mence and others
- Best set is Recover/Tw/Tox/Tbolt, you need Tbolt to not be Skarm fodder and Twave is usually required to cripple Meta while it is also a fine way to cover DDMence (provided not Refresh), Tox is needed to make it not useless vs Stall imo, also checks Bliss fine so its a cool mon to place in some new age CMPass Cele teams for this reason + the reasons stated above
- Mag+P2 is underexplored, I usually dont like P2+Dug, there are better options + you usually dont want Spikes fodders with P2
- Fitting spinners with P2 is difficult and wack, you should use it as a momentum reverser for CMPass Cele/Seed 3 Cele + Breakers teams imo, those which dont really give much opportunities for Skarm to spike without being dealt insane damage
29 -
- Missy is actually cool
- Being able to utterly demolish Claydol Stall's dreams is utterly insane, it allows for some unique comps
- Fast mons or great cleaners like DDMence, 299 SuperRachi, Raikou are underrated in Missy squads, giving those teams the fastmon allows em to do outplaying in bad MUs
- Bold Zap is great in Missy teams to help em deal with Physical weaknesses
- Missy is like Kou in the sense that it is at its best MU dividing, as it is practically a autowin into Stall
- Missy's flaws come from the fact that its very bad vs Offense, OffPert 3hkoes, DDTar uses it as setup, Meta uses it as entry to get damage, Missy doesnt wall anything really bar Claydol and passive Waters, the ability to be the ultimate spinblocker is usually worth it though, but only on Sandless squads, as Ttar squads would prefer Calm Taunt Giga Gar in such a stallbreaking role
- Dug is good with Missy
30 -
- Yup, im no longer a believer
- I used to like this guy on Spikeless 6 strongmons, but it is just worse DDMence
- It has a good quality in the fact it makes Cune/Milo/Pert total fodders but its better to just damage em up and ready for a DDMence sweep as it is for Gyara as Mence is just a overall better mon
- DD/HPGhost/EQ/Dedge is its best set, being able to bypass OffMie/Gar is Gyara's most redeeming quality compared to Mence bar pivoting vs Meta, which is fine ig, Gyara works very well with Mence
- Needs Magneton lol
This is likely the cutoff for what I consider OU level/worth using atm in the tier, however there are some mons that I could consider to that list but have not done so very deeply, thus the "Uncertainty" rank, as I have not used em much to actually give em a ranking in recent time, they are ordered btw
Uncertain Ranks:
31 -
- Great lead in practice, Recover sets could be cool as Bliss switch-ins, Recover makes it distinct from Hera in the sense that it can come in and in again vs Bliss and Ttar and Recover off the damage (esp vs Bliss's Stoss), pairs well with SubPass Electrics
32 -
- Jynx is really great at opening up games for Dug Off, also makes for a potent Dug weather reset tactic for CuneLax teams, food for thought, maybe even Pert Lead->Jynx sequences could be strong
33 -
- Weezing is cool in the sense it can choose any coverage to pick up any Boom in any target, its Bulk and oftentimes deceptive power allows it to do that, underexplored but because of being Gengar and Metagross's weird cousin, it kinda struggles at fitting into teams because MixMeta does a lot of similar roles, good at enabling AgiMeta on Spikeless teams?
34 -
- Can Twave off Meta/Ttar/Lax and do heavy damage to them, IB Stab is underrated and its able to check Zap/Gar/Mie/Mence/Cele/Cune pretty well, its speed is middling and it can be a issue, maybe Fast Regice sets (199 speed with Modest?! Maybe even Timid with Spikes) could be great, even Bulky sets, its also somewhat of nice support to Lax on its ability to Twave most of Lax's checks and chip em for it? Also helps Lax at not having to deal with Special attacks earlygame and focus on breaking, interesting mon
35 -
- Good tool for AgiPass Zapdos teams to sweep down, its also a fine mon by itself on its ability to check Ttar and be able to do heavy breaking with its EQ stab + Rock Slide + Double Edge coverage, its usually able to trade 1 on 1 with most things, its slowness, lack of lefties hurts though, and usually Wak isnt really that good on those teams, but theres some potential there and good defensive qualities, it can also somewhat pivot into Zapdos once lol, obviously a staple of Ninjask teams lol
36 -
- Ninjask may be legit lol, tbh its a bit fishy but I can genuinely see Mag+Jask as a subtype of Mag Offense that is dangerous, especially with middleman Celebi for the Chain-pass, its a lame style used by lame people but its honestly legit and threatning lol, none of this Sand Attack BS tbh, use Silver Wind+HPRock or ToxTect imo with a Leech Seed mon, I may build a bit with this mon, the lack of defensive qualities + the fact its incredibely meh as a standalone mon makes it a bit unappealing though, also the fact RoarPert/RoarCune/RoarZap/RoarMence tend to fuck it, though its usually outplayable, IceZap sucks for those Jask teams though
Final thoughts:
- I am likely going into a break of ADV OU
- I only ranked mons I think are useful/worth bringing, so yes that means no Breloom, sorry not sorry
- Some mons may enter the Uncertainty list soon, Regirock and Smeargle are some I am considering should enter that territory
- Everything is ordered
- Much thanks for everyone for being supporting, even though this list is ultimately a bit pointless, I had a bit of fun writing it
- Have a nice day.
1 -
- Best mon in the tier by a long shot, even without considering Sand at first
- Best gatekeeper of silly Suicune/Snorlax nonsense
- Bulky DD+Double Edge is its best set, incredible at dealing with waters and providing a defensive safety net vs everything, hard to justify other sets compared to DDTar's Defense and Offense
- Pursuit is highly underrated and misunderstood, best use of Pursuit is actively shitting on Claydol/Starmie, Pursuit Ttar+Skarm/Forre is one of the most difficult combos to spin vs
- I often think the other Ttar sets are massively overrated while Suit and DD's viability is understated, its too hard to justify any other set bar those two often enough, even though all of SubPunch/Mix/4 attacks/CB have upside, they just often dont fit in enough teams or are splashable enough, they also tend to excel in some MUs while being way worse in others compared to the throught excellence in any MU of DD+Double Edge or Pursuit (usually with Brick Break), those sets are just useful in any MU, which is key with such a mon like Ttar, whose best quality is its consistency game to game
2 -
- I thought of other mons to rank at 2, but in my opinion Spikes Offense is the best style and it is at its most consistent with Toxic Skarm
- Skarm is excellent vs any spinner and excellent vs any MU, playing Skarm aggro is best
- HPSteel is underrated, makes for a great safety net vs lots of offenses, allows cute squads with AgiMeta/OffPert as the solo rock resist to exist more comfortambly
- Taunt+Toxic Skarmory is to me the best set in a margin, Gengar/Forre are pressurable and TauntTox is useful in every other situation
- Excellent SuitTtar partner, but DD+Skarm should not be out of consideration, DD can be oftentimes a necessity for its defensive utility in said offensive squads
- Skarm Balances/Stalls are still fine, they can just be a lot more exploitable into opposing Skarm teams funnily enough, thus they can be a bit tricky or weird to use
- Skarm+Dug+Dol kinda sucks, and so does SkarmMag, would say Skarm is at its best without trappers
3 -
- NECESSITY on spikeless offense, oftentimes you just lack the breaking power otherwise
- The best breaker in the entire tier, mash resists are just as important as rock resists
- Mixed is its most splashable set (Mash/Psy/Fire/Boom), very versatile and can pick up many KOes, gets a bunch of damage on Pert and a threat vs TSS in general (bar WishRachi stuff), still a threat in every single MU, even the Rachi TSS ones, easy to slap on any given team given its ability to actually threaten Skarm and softcheck Gar, while still doing the Ttar/Lax/Bliss check duties
- Agility is its best set for the same reasons Bulky DD, the offense and defense is insane, versatility on last move is also great, Slide is a more all in approach which should only be used with Spikes while Boom is the most splashable one which can fit in a lot of offenses or even Spikes Balance alike, Spikes Offense with Zard can also appreciate Agi Boom for its ability to boom waters, basically speaking Agility is like having a 2nd Bulky DDTar while ur Bulky DDTar is great early-mid game, this Meta is excellent mid-late game, its also a much better cleaner, excellent mon for many reasons
- Protect sets are mid, they usually are used in Balance teams that use Meta as their rock resist but honestly those teams are always flawed as hell and Bulky DDTar is excellent vs those, on Offenses that use Meta as their only rock resist, Agility is better for its flexibility and potential to just clean up endgames or be able to clean up MUs that would be hard otherwise, Protect is also a Meta that breaks less than other Metas, which sucks considering Meta is the best breaker of the tier, and unlike AgiSlide, whos upside is being the best cleaner of the tier, Protect's upside seems really unclear to me bar owning Aero which you can do in a myriad of ways
- CB feels mid too (its still miles better than Protect sets), I understand why ppl like it and it can be beastly, but I think Mix has just overall better and undisputed flexibility, the tier is very well prepared for Mash spam and while CB can 1 on 1 vs every mon, the Mag weakness is a great downside, its also Dug weak, and the fact it doesnt heal w Lefties can be a hinderance vs Aero too, it can be really great though and the Boom 5v5 potential at lead is incredible, but theres a lot of ways to bypass CBMeta and i generally prefer the flexibility of Mix, I also feel Mix gets damage on Pert more consistently than CB, whos best use is damaging up Skarm, im not a fan of turning games into 5v5 w Houdini bc I never feel its that huge of a advantage, CB Mash Spam has the chances of just fucking up games though, especially considering Mash raises, its trading ability might be great, maybe deserves a higher eval than what I have right now
- Mash/EQ/Grass/Boom is a set more specific to Mag and some niche Spikeless Offense teams but its severely underrated and beastly, its the best thing vs SkarmPertBliss once Skarm is gone, theres usually 0 good switchins, it booms Zap very consistently and gets a ton of mileage, the only true problem is its splashability and Skarm issue, but on the teams its on, its a incredible set, use it more
- I dont like Toxic/Slide on Mash/EQ/Boom sets anymore, but maybe they have use, who knows, I have been wrong abt shit my entire life, I just think Grass is better most of the time
- I dont like Mashless Mix sets anymore, Mash is the tool that lets u check Ttar/Lax/Bliss and that is usually Meta's job in Offenses, while TP/EQ/Grass can get a lot of surprise booms/kills, it usually isnt worth dropping the unmatched consistency of Mash/Psy/Fire for this upside
4 -
- The Goat. The king of consistency itself
- OffPert is a really great threat vs SkarmBliss, incredible pressure with those deceptively powerful Hydro Pumps
- Great softcheck to many Ttars, Metas, Aeros, Mences, etc
- EndPert is massively underrated, its trading ability is top notch, ability to just tech in random 4th moves is great too, play it like a Snorlax for physical attackers
- People overstate Milo/Cune weakness, Atk invest EQ is great at pressuring with spikes down, Roar is also good on defensive sets
- Curse is still the de facto standard OffPert to me, being able to shit on DefStar is really great and winning lategame vs BoldCune/Lax is also amazing, Focus Punch and Refresh are interesting options, though, food for thought. Protect OffPert is the OffPert to use if its ur only rock resist, thus being the 2nd best OffPert, its nice on some Skarm Offenses, generally I prefer Curse though with Jira/Meta, but Protect can unlock some really great structures
- Defensive sets are good but I generally feel they want Spin of some kind and Spinners suck, Defensive Tect Hydro is outclassed by Tect OffPert imo on Spinless teams, the best Defensive sets usually have a support move like Roar, Toxic, Refresh which makes it have a great upside move that turns some MUs upside down, the Tect/Roar/Surf/Focus set might be ultimately underrated, maybe EQ>Focus is also a tad underrated
- +Atk Pert is perhaps a cool tech for some Curseless sets, not much Atk invest but just a +Atk nature to better pressure Mie/Milo/Cune, especially Sandless, s/o Lew for the tech, it may be good but im not ultimately convinced
5 -
- Mix is its best set, Dclaw/Flame/Grass/Brick does a lot of defensive decompression at once, incredible in Forry squads, Skarm squads also heavily appreciate it, its best quality is also unironically checking any phys attacker bar Meta, offering lots of defensive flexibility in game, can check CMers somewhat but not reliable at this
- Cute techs on Mix are cool, Roar is my favorite to help down with Cune or CelePass MUs, Wish is nice for some Forry squads, going even further in some of the defensive decompression, I think Grass is better though mostly because Mence can be a really good Pert pivot with its unique set of resistances, be careful though with IB on the switchin, that can be a legit play in lots of scenarios
- DD is a threat, ruins Dug squads like nothing else, incredible vs SkarmDug (esp with Brick Break), needs heavy anti Skarm though so its best to use with stuff that gets damage into it, great SuitTar partner and underrated Spikes abuser, Cele is also a nice partner for its ability to damage Skarm, MixMeta is a classical partner for the same reasons too, best used with softchecks to both Gengar and MixMence
- CB sucks, sorry. I just cant understand it, SkarmMag is a meh style that I havent seen in a while and everytime I use it, it sucks heavily, CBMence just doesnt have that good breaking power, its heavily fucked by SuitTar, Meta is a great absorber of it and use it as a way to get in to either do heavy damage or sweep
- Fat wish sets dont have a clear upside tbh, if u want Wish, use it as filler on MixMence, it "checks" Hera till Hera is faster, SDes on switch and slides u to high heaven, honestly I have considered +SpD but you literally only check Zard and nothing else with a fat SpD set, you "can" check Celebi with that but honestly Cele just trucks you with Leech Seed+Psychic SpD drops and you just dont progress enough, its better to just use MixMence 99% of the time
6 -
- I was wondering heavily on the 5th/6th/7th/8th/9th positions but I came to a conclusion I like Jirachi more than the others nowadays
- Super is GREAT. Like legit underrated set, never see ppl mention it that much but Bulky Super's ability to simply burst through Bliss is incredible, its also amazing at trading vs tanks like Ttar/Meta/Lax, Fast Super is a good cleaner with its 299 Spe and incredible power, Dug weak can be ass but Jira makes it work with how threatning it is and how players can never be sure to dug a 100% Jirachi, Super just has that coverage and that potential to burst through any pokemon bar CM Flame Bliss (which kinda sucks), amazing mon
- Mix is also great, im lower on it this time around cuz I think CM is a bit more splashable because I dont really believe on Thunder on Mix sets anymore, Bslam/Fire/Grass/DPunch is a amazing set that ppl genuinely underrate because "MUH DPUNCH IS 50% ACCURACY XD!!" but DP is much more consistent when u realize Bslam makes it a Bliss check in some way, esp vs Twaveless Bliss, Bslam is also a incredible chip tool esp alongside Spikes, Bslam can lure down any flier and ruin it for the rest of the match, its incredible vs Ttar/Meta/Pert/Bliss because of the Fire+Grass coverage paired with 60% Para + DPunch, secret is that with Spikes, you dont need to DPunch Ttar, just HPGrass it down with Spikes, Bslam+HPGrass can also hax down Mie/Milo while Bslam+Dpunch makes it much more consistent vs Bliss, its ability to just BS through its checks via Bslam Hax makes it super threatning, the reason im lower on Mix despite all its amazing qualities, even defenive ones such as pivoting on Meta's Mash or Aero's Slide/Dedge is because Bslam MixRachi is unfortunately very ruined by Gengar, which makes SuitTar almost a necessary partner, or a lot of Gar checks like RestZap+Bliss+Fire (they all appreciate Jirachi's ability to trade into Meta/Ttar/Pert/Lax more immediately than Super) and the fact it wants Spikes for consistency, making it more limited in teams you can fit, dont get mistaken, Mix+SuitTar on Spikes teams is incredibely threatning
- Wish sets always felt a bit meh, they dont make use of Jirachi's best qualities, which are its incredible offensive prowess, but its a solid wall, it can check the dangerous Special attackers like Zap/Mie but honestly, its too status weak and not fast or dangerous enough to make a splash, Wish/Tect/Slam/Fire is alright but its Status weakness is too dire, SubZap can also EV for it which hurts and Slam is worse than Tox vs Ttar/Pert, +Def sets dont really hardcheck anything, while softchecking Meta is a great upside, it often still takes too much damage vs Ttar/Pert/Meta with spikes down, its not fast or dangerous enough again and can get easily exploited by Cune/SubZap, CelePass also uses it as fodder, I used to like Wish 3A more but then I wanted something faster and stronger vs SkarmPert so I went up with Mix instead, Wish sets also have the same issue as Bslam Mix in the sense that they WANT SuitTar a lot of the time and thus are limited in teams they can fit, especially since lots of the team that would like WishRachi also like MixRachi, and I would prefer Mix for its dangerous threat level and speed more, especially since its also more immediate at trading
- 2 move coverage + CM sets are utterly overrated and suck, Sub/CM/IP/Tbolt is easily checked by all the most dangerous mons in the tier (Ttar/Meta/Pert) and Sub/CM/Tbolt/Grass now sucks vs CMCele and Mence, while still being softchecked by Ttar and Meta, you will never have perfect coverage besides maybe Psychic+Water but Water Pulse is never really that dangerous vs most of its targets and doesnt do enough damage without Spikes + walled by Skarm, while PsyFire is walled by Ttar which if the player is careful, will be very difficult to trap with Dug, WishCM is too easily cooked by any status and doesnt have the same danger level as Super and doesnt get as much 6-0 MUs as Sub, 3 move coverage is just better and more consistent at trading and being dangerous in game, I can understand Sub's ability to own Stall but theres better pokemon that are better vs most things in the meta for that, also btw CM 2 attacks Jirachi sucking vs CM Fire Punch Jirachi in the mirror is also a joke, being checked by their own Jirachi may be by far the worst thing which is why I generally consider Fire Punch almost a autoinclude on Jirachis, though experimenting with other sets may work
- CB might be cute, spamming Bslam is def a strat and it could work on Spikeless as a type of OffBeat MixRachi, invest a lot more in SpA if ur using CB and use Fire Punch there, though.
7 -
- Insanity hot take (pun intended)
- Zard is basically MixMence's cousin, it trades ability to defensive decompress vs Ttar/Pert to better deal with CMers/Meta/MixMence/Gengar, incredible in squads that are soft vs those, its also much more potent offensively
- Underrated on Spikes teams, especially defensive Spikes teams like Forre, its ability to pivot into dangerous threats like Gengar is also appreciated, Offense also appreciates it for those same reasons, it can fit on Spikeless much more easily than Mence and be much more threatning/not rely on Spikes to be threatning
- Dclaw is overhated, its ability to hit MixMence and Flygon is great, 1v1ing MixMence is good for a lot of squads that Zard fits on and with Spikes its not that difficult to put Ttar into Zard range, though it is a worry and with SuitTar coming into the forefront again, its a fair worry, still, theres too much hate on Dclaw when its a fine move
- Sub sets trade up Flame/Dclaw/Grass/BeatUp's consistency (best set imo) for a even better TSS and Ttar MU, the ability to negate DDTar setup is amazing, and its still great vs Bliss with Focus Punch, its great for MU dividing squads cuz it almost soloes TSS all by itself, incredibely threatning, pair up with mons that can softcheck MixMence and DDMence better though, as it no longer has the ability to take out Mence from 60%s, it also no longer can almost solo Superman (once Flygon is chipped into Dclaw range, which is easily attainable with Dedge Ttar) so be prepared for that
- Underrated partner is SuitTar cuz Zard+Suit can reliably remove Aero for a lot of partners (Celebi, Jirachi, etc)
8 -
- The best special wall in the game
- I was gonna rank this 5 but it has dissapointed me lately, it being passive vs Skarm/Meta/Ttar/Pert is incredibely bad, and those are some of the dangerous mons to give room for, theres no good solution either, all feel somewhat flawed in how you deal with those mons and those mons are difficult to deal with to begin, instead of offensively outplay like you have to do with Cele/Zap, you are constantly forced to outplay defensively-wise which is never rly great cuz its a sign of being in the backfoot, mainly because the best answers to those mons generally are not offensive (bar Skarm, but Skarm ruins a lot of its offensive answers with Tox), that is one aspect of Bliss thats been bothering me lately
- Tox Fire/Tox Tbolt are the sets I most enjoy, especially since they can pressure Skarm/Meta better and Tox helps vs Pert/Ttar, but it still needs help vs Suicune, which is another difficulty of using Blissey, CM fixes these but BoltBeam lets in Ttar/Meta/Pert too easily, which can turn dire real quick
- TW+Stoss with a spinner is great, but fitting spinners can be real tricky, hazard removal usually sucks imo, but TW+Stoss has enough upside, I like TW/Tox+Stoss, but you need to be careful of Dug/Gar when using this set, TW+IB is still great
- Dug is a worry, tho I believe its a bit overstated, dealing with the tanky phys attackers is usually worse imo
- CM has a great partner in MixRachi, MixRachi lures lots of CM's answers to get chipped with spikes down, if using CMBliss, I reccomend MixRachi/Seed 3 Cele for the ability to overload those dangermons in Ttar/Meta/Pert and also overload Skarm, also SuitTar with Brick Break for the same reasons
- Forre is great at enabling Bliss, as is Spin in general, but I generally like Forre for role compression, Forre with offensive-esque Bliss sets (Tox Fire, Tox Bolt) is underrated, so is CM on those teams
- Generally not a fan of Spikeless Bliss, but have thought about it and have thought of a CMBliss positional approach, I think theres too many roadblocks for that to work though
- 3 attacks may be interesting with lots of Bliss lures, especially since HPGrass is great at limiting Pert
9 -
- I was gonna rank this much higher, but I feel those Zap as special wall Spikes teams are getting worse and worse by the day
- Zap is great, the best Suicune check in the game, it checks about anything that uses special attacks really, Mie/Zap/Mence/Gar/etc, but the problem is it can only really do it once or twice
- Bulky Offensive Zapdos is still great, but I feel the teams have been on a down spiral thanks to various factors, esp SuitTar, which really punishes El Classico (Zap/Skarm/Tar/Gar/Pert/Aero) for example
- Timid Zap is underrated, outspeeding MixMence/Zap/Zard/Jirachi/Celebi is great, heck even tying with them, Roar is a great option as it makes it break Bliss better with Spikes down and also deals with CelePass
- Random techs like Metal Sound (helps vs lastmon/endgame situations vs Blissey), Rain Dance (resets weather for CuneLax) and Protect without Toxic (scouts Aero, deals with Boom Dol/Meta) are underrated and deserve more usage
- SubPass Zap is great, subpassing to Ttar/Meta/etc is a great way to enable threats in Spikes and Spikeless alike, drypassing is mid but passing a Sub is great at making momentum and punishing dishonest builds
- RestZap is a bit middling, its a good set still but it can sometimes fall flat a bit, in Sand it can be very exploitable with Ttar and OffPert, sometimes it gets those MUs where they literally cant touch you, greatest punisher of Status-heavy Spikes teams, the SubTox Rest set is quite cool but im not quite convinced by it, usually I prefer Grass on Rest sets for OffPert, and Metal Sound is a nice tech on RestZap teams since they usually struggle vs Lax/Bliss due to the fact of them being sandless
- Bold is underrated, its a nice way to soft patch Aero/DDMence/Meta, its amazing in Superman squads for its ability to 1v1 Lax with Metal Sound+Tbolt and also help Flygon at dealing with Meta and DDMence, I usually use Rest/MS/Tbolt+Hidden power of choice, usually being Ice for DDMence, but can also be Grass in some squads, it can also be used in some cutesy Meta solo rock resist offenses for this reason, though maybe those like Protect>Rest better
10 -
- Defensive sets suck lmao. They are usually too passive and spike bait, sometimes though they can get that juicy 6-0 MU, I prefer using Recover on Modest sets but even then lately I havent found justifications for doing this
- Leech 3 Attacks is the GOAT. I was a bit down on it then realized why it was good again, its the best trader vs Meta/Ttar/Skarm which is invaluable, its also incredible at enabling AgiSlide Meta and Bulky DDTar, it can check Zap/Gar/Mie, dangerous threats for Offense and pressure down Bliss TSS teams much better than Zap, all of that and its also better at switching into Pert, its underrated in Spikeless or even Bliss teams bc of its ability to trade with dangermons and Skarm, while using Pert as free bait, Celebi is best used when you can rely on it offensively instead of defensively thus why Leech 3 is the GOAT, may get a higher ranking depending on what happens next
- CelePass is good, if not underrated, ppl usually have lots of beef w CelePass (for good reasons, to be fair), the 2 move coverage on CM sucks, doesnt check Gar anymore, and its bad vs fliers, SD sets also have the coverage problem while being terrible vs Skarm, SubSeed is the best Pass set but it has issues with fitting into teams + Skarm still stands, CelePass however is underrated for a couple reasons, its the best way to beat dishonest teambuilding, CMPass is also still good into the dangermons and helps enhance some mons further (Zard/Zap/OffMie/SuitTar/MixMeta/Jirachi, etc), CMPass also still does most of Leech 3 duties or even Super, but it has that unique statpassing upside that lets it punish greedy structures, SubSeed is EXCELLENT, its fast and it subseed stalls literally everything, not only that but SubPass helps at enabling AgiMeta/DDTar/DDMence free setup, and with Recover it still checks Zapdos and others quite well (except Gar), SubPassing to any mon is great, and Cele makes better abuse of Sub than even Zap does thanks to the annoyance of SubSeed and its excellent 328 Speed, vs opposing Cele, passing to Ttar/Meta/Zard/Mence does the trick, you can even try SubPassing to Gengar, which exploits the hell out of Claydol, by being able to SubPass on a Spin, Skarm can be a problem but you can abuse it with Zard/Gar/Zap and etc, even fit on Mag teams and ball, SDPass is mostly on Mag teams but also can similarly punish greedy teams, I have the least experience on this set but I also think you could maybe use it in a similar approach like SubSeed, where you use it with a bunch of Skarm lures or heavy hitters and enjoy the benefits, its interesting, thats for sure
- Super sucks. Its usually outdone by Seed 3 or CMPass as those have better upside imo, its also still usually fucked by the same things except you add Blissey to the list and boosting up changes practically nothing, its a terrible sweeper/cleaner and its not a great breaker compared to Seed 3, and if you want to beat down DefBi teams, CMPass is better at that anyway
- 328 CMPass with Giga+HPElec coverage is a interesting set, food for thought
11 -
- Suicune is king of bullshit.
- Gets a lot of great MUs where it can just flat 6-0, Sub sets are the best because they break Blissey without using passive move Rest
- Rest Modest is fine but usually outclassed by Sub, I think the Calm Rest is hype is a bit meh, its alright at best, but its still getting fucked by usual tactics (Zap, Spikes, DDTar, etc)
- Suicune is at its best when used as just a offensive mon, relying on it defensively leads to structural problems, same deal as Celebi, except Suicune is much worse at defensive duties than Celebi is
- Its more inconsistent than ppl give credit for, it can have the 1 move it needs in the MU and autowin, or dont have it and be useless the rest of the game
- Bold Rest Roar maybe a bit underrated and due a comeback, but the set just kinda sucks tbh
- CroCune has similar issues, its a fine mon and deserves to be explored further thanks to its godlike MU vs TSS but it still has near to 0 defensive utility since if it rests, it can be a bit useless + reliant on stalk rolls + beaten by Cele/Zap/Mence which is bad, still, deserves more usage bc its very threatning by itself and its often less passive/better than Rest IB, still worse than Sub IB though
- OffCune is a bitch and fun ruiner, but is the 2nd most consistent Suicune behind Sub, use Toxic or HPGrass last move, I dont think Roar is usually worth it, especially since Cune doesnt rly fit on Spikes teams
- Cune+Dol is meh, but maybe its better than I thought
12 -
- Yup. Please be mad at Gengar 12th, I enjoy that.
- I often dont like Gar, 75% is obviously a factor but I genuinely believe thats overstated as hell, my true beef with Gar is that its honestly just weak, unstabbed boltbeam is sad, and it often fails to threaten KOes and some of its answers arent even affected by Spikes, because of the fact its not that strong, a lot of things can just stay in and do heavy damage into it, any type of chip makes Gengar's bulk benchmarks pretty mediocre, but without those bulk benchmarks, Gengar is way more inconsistent, Zard/Zap/Mie/Cune/Cele/Ttar/Meta/Pert and others can easily stay in on Gengar and do heavy damage, even if its coverage is super effective, this makes it a bit worse vs Offense than other fliers, not to mention that Pursuit Ttar is super annoying and that because of it you often need a extra ground immune with Gar, as it can never be your only ground immune imo, which makes it harder because that means Gengar fits on some sort of Flex slot instead of flier slot, and sometimes on the Flex slot for TSS ud want something like a steel or another flier, it sucks that its hard to make Gar+Steel (Jira/Meta) work because of this
- That said, Gar's still a potent threat, ESPECIALLY vs Stall, it should not be understated how dangerous Gar is to any stall team, with Wisp+Taunt (its best set), it shits on every single Stall mon, from Bliss/Milo/Cune/Skarm to Dol/Lax/etc, Gar helps keep em up and also burns Dol for your Ttar to go wild and even use it as setup, one quality of Gar is also its ability to check MixMence, a dangerous threat, and when everything is below half, it also starts being a threat to a lot, wisp ruins a lot of stuff! Most things dont want to take a burn longterm which may make things hard for Balance/Stall alike, problem is Offense can usually choose a mon to "sack" and outpressure Gar, putting it into any cleaner's range or using pivots like Zard or Cele
- Best mon at limiting broken ass Snorlax, which could be too broken if wasnt for Gar's existence forcing it to run a otherwise useless move
- I dont like Boom sets, I think Gengar's best quality is shitting on Stall, so I use Taunt for that, I get Boom's flexibility but generally speaking I think Taunt has more value
- Wisp/Taunt/Giga/Tbolt Calm (+SpD, -Atk) is underrated, its the best Gengar can get at fucking up Stall while also beating up Forry teams, excellent MU divider and also a great Swampert switch-in, should be used more, I get the Fat Modest sets but I really like this one
13 -
- The GOAT of Spikeless
- Great breaker, able to damage up Ttar/Meta is amazing, it can also chip Gar for dangerous threats
- Curse/Dedge/Sball/EQ is its best set, its great at breaking down pieces and a monster at beating Fat down, Dedge does about 33% to Skarm while boosted, making it a excellent Skarm lure, EQ helps it trade vs Meta/Ttar and Sball rounds out the set to beatdown Gengar and the odd Misdreavus
- Always pair Lax up with Cele or Zap so you don't rely on Lax to beat special attackers and thus can enjoy it for its breaking prowess
- Underrated partner is OffMie, provides emergency spin+speed to Lax teams, most OffMie checks dont like dealing with Lax either
- Lax+Dol is still solid
- Lax Spikes is underrated, it pairs quite nicely with Cloy for its emergency spin + the fact Cloy can play in a more yolo approach where you just attack and boom, Spikes damage up Lax's best checks (Meta/Ttar) and help it put into +1 boosted attacks damage
- Rest Lax is still a threat, but ultimately inconsistent, always account for this mon or else it will get fucked
- Mag+Lax teams are overhated, they still work fine especially if you have Zap or Cele
- Lax+Dug is maybe underexplored
14 -
- Best revenge killer in the tier
- Good gatekeeper of nonsense, though that quality is overstated
- SuitTar's presence hurts, so does stuff like AgiMeta, SteelSkarm, DDMence and Protect Zap
- Still a great mon with Cele or Zap enabling it, just a bit lower on it this time around since I like stuff like Zard/Mence on those teams and those usually occupy the Aero slot, I also think they are overall better defensively
- Aero locks can suck, but a good builder/player should be able to overcome those
- SubLiechi sucks, its a bad cleaner compared to AgiMeta and doesnt have the throughout excellence of CB
- Spikeless CB Aero is also pretty mediocre, outclassed by DDMence 99% of the time
- Good spikes abuser, still excellent, just feels a bit more flawed than the mons above it due to the nature of CB locks and the fact the meta is always super well prepared for it, even so, it still gets to win games
15 -
- Same deal as Aero
- Trapping Ttar/Meta/Cele/Rachi/etc is SUPER valuable
- Number 1 reason Stall can even work
- Good on offense as well, Dug Off is a overhated archetype
- Dug Spikes should be Spinless and get greedy trying to push gamestates where Dug picks KO after KO
- CB locks and such, with EQ being a super terrible lock makes it very exploitable, thus why its a bit lower than the other mons, said locks can be overstated though, good Dug teams always account for those and try to make Dug as consistent as possible
16 -
- OffMie is a DEMON vs Offense, please use Surf, you will not regret it, Surf/Ice/Tbolt is great coverage
- Most underrated aspect of OffMie is its emergency spin ability, helps support stuff like Lax/Cune/Cele and Bulky DDTar/AgiMeta
- One of the best MixMence checks, also excellent at picking off Bulky DDTar at 60%s, making it a nice mon to use in Meta as only rock resist Offenses
- Underrated partner is SuitTar for both Aero and being able to chip down Gar into Surf range
- Hydro/IB/Psychic/Spin is a underexplored set maybe, Psychic helps on Gar-weak teams while Hydro keeps the damage vs Skarm, if your team doesnt need the help picking off Bulky DDTar, I can see this being a great pick, mostly for Spikeless Lax teams as well
- I hate DefStar and I will not say anything about it other than its important to cover it in the builder but thats so fkin easy that if u lose to DefStar you should be ashamed of yourself
17 -
- Underrated mon
- DefGon is excellent, I like using Tectless sets as in Tox/EQ/RS/Fire Blast, 3hkoing Skarm with Fire Blast is good enough in my eyes, considering you are not affected by Spikes like Spinless Hydro DefPert, and you keep up pressure vs Skarm with it
- Tect/Tox/EQ/Slide is still fine, Screech>Tox for random lastmons may be cool, great on Superman obviously and on teams where you dont need the Skarm pressure as much and would rather be solid vs Aero
- Pair up with normal resists to help vs Aero, DE spam from Aero can be awnkard otherwise
- Flygon+Dug Spikes is underrated, Flygon is the best mon at helping Dug achieve a state of KO after KO while also not caring too much abt Skarm's Spikes and being solid vs Ttar, Dug helps picking off Meta and CMers who r dangerous
18 -
- Jolt is a great alternative to Zap/Cele on Spikes Offense
- SubPass is its best set, obvious reasons already detailed on Zap
- Jolt is the best at enabling wacky Ttar sets like Mix or CB, but you still use Bulky DD with it most of the time
- Does not need Gengar as ppl like to say it does, playing vs Dol is easier than ppl say it is, especially if u can Sub up on the switchin
- Incredible defensive compression as it checks Zap/Gar/Mie/Cune/Zard in a pinch, it cant reliably switchin into the STAB attacks of Zard or Cune/Mie but it still can pivot on weaker attacks and do its thing
- Spikeless Jolt is underrated, SubPass gives enough upside if you pair it with dangerous breakers and it allows for unique builds thanks to its unique settings of defensive qualities
19 -
- Forre is great.
- Ppl often overhate Forre for the silliest reasons, its a fine pokemon, the defensive compression is good for Bliss teams
- HPBug is able to pressure Spinners much more easily and faster than Skarm does
- Needs SuitTar unfortunately, think Forre+Dol takes suck because they are too passive into Skarm
- Great at resetting the tempo vs Skarm
- Too outplay reliant at times and can be very hard to pilot, high ceiling unfortunately and much less comfortamble to use than Skarm
- SkarmGar can be hellish if you dont play the sequences right
- Zard is underrated in Forre squads, the synergy of those two is insane, though most often Forre squads need MixMence
- The flexibility on Forre builds is a bit low due to the requirements one needs to make Forre worth the effort, which is why its lower in this list, though I think you could rise this up a couple ranks, so 19th is not my definitive opinion
20 -
- Mag is good, Mag teams can be underwhelming
- Mag is useful outside of Skarm, it can switch-in into Gar/Zap semi-reliably and trap Meta, its understated how often that comes up for Mag teams
- I usually prefer building my teams in such a way where I do not need to slot Mag because I prefer having 6 strongmons on Spikeless usually (same deal with Dug, I forgot to mention that)
- Mag Off is still overhated however, its a fine style, especially on the way it enables different Cele/Meta sets and makes Lax even better in Stall MUs
- Mag+Dol kinda sucks, two mons that dont achieve much and often lead to a passive style thats cooked by DDTar or Cele, usable to fish vs Bliss TSS players, esp those who dont Gengar or DDTar often in their Bliss teams
21 -
- Underrated mon again
- Play this shit more aggro and you will not regret it, click Surf/Boom more often than u click Spikes
- Think of Cloy teams as MixOff with the potential to Spike and think of Cloy as another threat rather than a pure Spiker for the above to work better
- Emergency spin is a understated quality, makes sure you can do lots of stuff vs Skarm
- BEST quality is chipping down Skarm for its teammates, Modest Surf hits hard
- Flawed in Spiking, doesnt Spike as well as you would want it to, suffers from not having enough EVs to do its job most of the time
- Focus more on attacking as previously stated, thats how you remedy from Cloy's flaws
- Similar case to Forre where I think this can be ranked higher but not sure currently
22 -
- Yup. Below Cloyster
- I think this guy feels a bit meh, its problems is being outsped by Jira/Cele, softchecked by Skarm, and cooked lategame by MixMence/Zard/Aero, it also is worse vs Stall than ppl say it is, it looks "great" but Stall can handle it via SkarmDug pretty often
- SD Lefties feels meh, I used to think that was the most consistent and best set, but it just has 0 defensive utility and it has problems hitting the field, its still softchecked by all of the above too
- While Hera is the WOAT defensively, it is the GOAT offensively, thus I think Hera is a major player for Spikeless Offenses, as it is a mon which has the OHKO power vs anything, Salac to me is its best set for this exact reason, it has the power of Swarm Megahorn and fixes the Speed issue, pair up with something like RD Zap and go to town
- Megahorn sucks, but ppl overstate that, its much better than Hydro lol, the true problem again is its lack of defense which is why its so low in my list, its defensive utility is TOO LOW and it cant fit on Spikes teams ever too, making it even more limited than ever
- Bulky sets could be good, idt so though as I think its best to make Hera's offensive qualities out of there instead of trying to squeeze defensive niches out of it
- Salac is a deadly mon vs Offense and Defense alike, I think its best with Focus Punch>SD for Skarm, though with Mag, SD is alright, still, I believe Hera is best on 6 strongmons Spikeless teams
23 -
- Milo is alright, I submit
- It is a nice mon, usually outclassed by Suicune offensively and its kinda meh defensively, it does have some great niches at being able to sponge Ttar semi decently and cook Meta/Pert
- Its bulk + Toxic + Recover + Water STAB makes it a deceptively strong threat, be careful or you get cooked by this with a Spike up
- Forre+Milo is underrated, Milo helps to fix a lot of the "Mixed Attacker issue" Forre teams face, imo
- Milo oftentimes needs a spinner unfortunately, and the best fit is Claydol (if you dont want to use Forre), Skarm+Dol Milo is fine, but usually weak to something/can feel wack cuz sandless
- Milo+Mag is cool, maybe I explore it little, maybe its underexplored when Cune+Mag is used by many players
24 -
- I think Claydol is super mediocre
- It does some really good role compression, the problem is its not good offensively at all, it doesnt consist any threat, its passive outside of Boom and its EQ needs lots of investment and even then it STILL can be weak, not to mention needing Psychic for Gar means its pretty much useless vs Zap/Mence outside of Boom, it does a bunch of stuff but it does all of it in a dogshit level
- For that reason, Dol is able to unlock many unique playstyles, and I think thats Dol inherent strenght, its able to unlock many good mons to the next level, but you gotta question, is it worth to use Claydol to unlock those mons potential? Is it worth it to use a mon thats incredibely do nothing by nature for this? For the most consistent and gamewinning playstyles, the answer is no, thats why you barely see Claydol in Cele/Zap Spikes Offenses, but since Bliss's potential can be so absurd without Spikes in the picture, Dol can fit in nicely to enable some Bliss Spikes structures, same reasoning applies to Cune or Lax Spikeless Offense teams, where SpinDol is a "Mag-esque pokemon" in my eyes, fullfilling a support role to defensive decompress Suicune, helping dealing with Ttar/Aero/Zap/Gar while giving the Spin support needed for those two to go to next level
- That is why I truly believe the best Claydols may as well be +SpD or +Def, because in that way, you can use Claydol for its defensive attributes, instead of trying to make it more of a threat artificially with +Atk, its still getting owned by Skarm/Zap/Mence/Cele/etc if it doesnt Boom (which is annoying cuz that means you can never go 2 for 1, which is true of Claydol in general) so taking more hits to get and Spin or just temporarily absorb hits so Cune/Lax/Bliss dont have to take em is good, and being able to take more hits is great for a role like this, which is why +SpD or +Def
25 -
- Quag is great, yes.
- Its good as a Swampert-replacement on Forre teams, its able to dissuade Hydro Pump from Swampert which is key for those squads, as Pert is super annoying for them, its also great at walling down Milo (another annoyance) for those teams and walling down MonoCune, thus you can safely use CMBliss on Quag squads as a Cune safety-net, as well as the fact Quag beats OffPert, a mon that usually uses CMBliss as fodder
- Quag is better at cleaning lategame than Pert is
- Theres only 1 Quag set: Curse/Rest/EQ/IB with Max HP Max Def Relaxed, everything else is dogshit
- Quag's bulk is genuinely underrated, it still does Pert's duties just fine, you will need a bit more pivoting but nothing too crazy, its still as reliable as Swampert
- Squishy specially really shows vs Psychic Meta for example, be careful of other Mixed Attackers as Quag's SpD can be unreliable at times, lacks stats overall
- A bit passive vs Skarm teams at times, run something like Zard with it to make up for this
26 -
- Yes, below QUAGSIRE THE GOAT
- I have beef w this pokemon, it looks really good at first, great bulk, great attacking stats, solid speed and all, but it has a lot of problems, first is that every single offensive mon just creeps for this and it suddenly becomes haywire, its usually the slowest of the fliers and it ONLY fits on the flier slot, which Zard usually does better in Spikes+Ttar because of POINT 2, Molt is super reliant on Gar to break down and be consistent vs Bliss in general, compared to Zard which needs practically very minor support, unlike Zard, it also cant really fit on Spikeless unless you are fine with it being useless vs Bliss teams but unlike Starmie, which provides that emergency spin support even on its useless MUs on spikeless, Molt... doesnt do much noteworthy? Idk, also offenses can usually pivot out and unlike vs Zard, they have the speed advantage, and please, its not like Zard is lacking in power lol, the only times Zard is truly "lacking" is vs Milo on Spikes teams, but thats minor anyway and its not like Molt handles it that better, Molt having the better bulk means its better at checking itself and Zard, which may be a cool defensive niche, while still having the qualities that make Zard so excellent and the Meta pivot, which it arguably does it better than Zard, but its speed and lack of immediate Bliss-breaking tools is a flaw imo
- What really makes this stand out than Zard is Will-O-Wisp IMO, it helps a lot in Sandless TSS at dealing with Lax, it also means its much less of fodder to Ttar than Zard is, its better bulk helps Stallish structures a lot too, also the ability to fit Roar for CelePass, also easily the number 1 enemy to PhysOff, makes for a fine mon in those squads, I usually think they r a bit meh myself, but the problem with Moltres isnt that its a bad mon, far from contrary, its pretty good, but when building, you just want something faster than it in most Spikes Offense because it takes that Flier/Fastmon slot and in Ttar+Bliss TSS, you still want that something fast to help you be able to outplay some MUs more easily
- Wisp+Tox maybe? Would help at breaking down Bliss and being less reliant on Gar+Spike for it maybe... I dont know, I dont really feel I fit this mon in very often, it just doesnt have what im looking for most of the time
- Molt+Dug is underrated, great combo actually, Wisp Molt is able to put Ttar/Lax more easily into Dug range and both fit pretty nicely on Spikes Sandless structures, I think thats the future for Molt imo
- Could be ranked higher, but right now, im super low on it, I think though if I can get Molt+Dug+Spikes working, it could be a very potent mon for said Balanceish/Stallish teams, where they make the best use of its qualities
27 -
- Raikou is actually underrated
- Good mon for Bliss Sandless TSS for its unmatched ability to fuck ZapDug and MixOff alike, incredible at getting random 6-0s and the fact it can lategame check Zap/Gar/Mie/Cune is also great for those Bliss squads as it allows them to play Bliss more recklessly, Spikes also makes Kou's cleaning strat way more consistent, I reccomend Modest
- Great vs El Classico and Zap as special wall type of builds, incredibely anti-meta in this aspect, once again, the great "Oh Fuck" button for Offense teams, as they usually rely on Ttar+Zap to handle the electrics, or Lax, and with Spikes down, Kou goes crazy
- Kou's fits are limited at best... It has Molt syndrome in the sense that it has 0 tools for Bliss and the fact that most often, esp on Spikes Offense, you just want something faster (not trapped by Dug) or bulkier+levitating (not trapped by Dug), see where im going? Zap and Jolt, they also have tools for Bliss in the form of Roar, Toxic, SubPassing for the former and SubPassing for the latter and while Cele is trappable, it switches into Pert and has tools to deal with Bliss in Leech Seed + is not trapped at 100%, thus why Kou kinda just fits on Spikes Balance as a anti-offense pick, its true that CM Modest can burst through statusless Stoss Bliss but those sets usually suck imo, Kou has a 2nd fit in P2 Hyper Offense, which is actually a pretty fine playstyle, use Kou with CelePass to have that support, no Dug, just get Cele in and try to rack up boosts and pass to Kou, can even be Leech 3 Cele + Breakers, thus MU dividing with Kou, P2+Kou is generally a bit underexplored due to being a tricky style to both pilot and build, but its legit
- Kou may have a niche on MixOff or Dug Off, though honestly usually been underwhelmed by it on those teams
28 -
- Good and underrated mon
- Usually fits best on fast tempo Offenses that use this as a Dug Stall measure + can reset the tempo a bit defensively vs Mence and others
- Best set is Recover/Tw/Tox/Tbolt, you need Tbolt to not be Skarm fodder and Twave is usually required to cripple Meta while it is also a fine way to cover DDMence (provided not Refresh), Tox is needed to make it not useless vs Stall imo, also checks Bliss fine so its a cool mon to place in some new age CMPass Cele teams for this reason + the reasons stated above
- Mag+P2 is underexplored, I usually dont like P2+Dug, there are better options + you usually dont want Spikes fodders with P2
- Fitting spinners with P2 is difficult and wack, you should use it as a momentum reverser for CMPass Cele/Seed 3 Cele + Breakers teams imo, those which dont really give much opportunities for Skarm to spike without being dealt insane damage
29 -
- Missy is actually cool
- Being able to utterly demolish Claydol Stall's dreams is utterly insane, it allows for some unique comps
- Fast mons or great cleaners like DDMence, 299 SuperRachi, Raikou are underrated in Missy squads, giving those teams the fastmon allows em to do outplaying in bad MUs
- Bold Zap is great in Missy teams to help em deal with Physical weaknesses
- Missy is like Kou in the sense that it is at its best MU dividing, as it is practically a autowin into Stall
- Missy's flaws come from the fact that its very bad vs Offense, OffPert 3hkoes, DDTar uses it as setup, Meta uses it as entry to get damage, Missy doesnt wall anything really bar Claydol and passive Waters, the ability to be the ultimate spinblocker is usually worth it though, but only on Sandless squads, as Ttar squads would prefer Calm Taunt Giga Gar in such a stallbreaking role
- Dug is good with Missy
30 -
- Yup, im no longer a believer
- I used to like this guy on Spikeless 6 strongmons, but it is just worse DDMence
- It has a good quality in the fact it makes Cune/Milo/Pert total fodders but its better to just damage em up and ready for a DDMence sweep as it is for Gyara as Mence is just a overall better mon
- DD/HPGhost/EQ/Dedge is its best set, being able to bypass OffMie/Gar is Gyara's most redeeming quality compared to Mence bar pivoting vs Meta, which is fine ig, Gyara works very well with Mence
- Needs Magneton lol
This is likely the cutoff for what I consider OU level/worth using atm in the tier, however there are some mons that I could consider to that list but have not done so very deeply, thus the "Uncertainty" rank, as I have not used em much to actually give em a ranking in recent time, they are ordered btw
Uncertain Ranks:
31 -
- Great lead in practice, Recover sets could be cool as Bliss switch-ins, Recover makes it distinct from Hera in the sense that it can come in and in again vs Bliss and Ttar and Recover off the damage (esp vs Bliss's Stoss), pairs well with SubPass Electrics
32 -
- Jynx is really great at opening up games for Dug Off, also makes for a potent Dug weather reset tactic for CuneLax teams, food for thought, maybe even Pert Lead->Jynx sequences could be strong
33 -
- Weezing is cool in the sense it can choose any coverage to pick up any Boom in any target, its Bulk and oftentimes deceptive power allows it to do that, underexplored but because of being Gengar and Metagross's weird cousin, it kinda struggles at fitting into teams because MixMeta does a lot of similar roles, good at enabling AgiMeta on Spikeless teams?
34 -
- Can Twave off Meta/Ttar/Lax and do heavy damage to them, IB Stab is underrated and its able to check Zap/Gar/Mie/Mence/Cele/Cune pretty well, its speed is middling and it can be a issue, maybe Fast Regice sets (199 speed with Modest?! Maybe even Timid with Spikes) could be great, even Bulky sets, its also somewhat of nice support to Lax on its ability to Twave most of Lax's checks and chip em for it? Also helps Lax at not having to deal with Special attacks earlygame and focus on breaking, interesting mon
35 -
- Good tool for AgiPass Zapdos teams to sweep down, its also a fine mon by itself on its ability to check Ttar and be able to do heavy breaking with its EQ stab + Rock Slide + Double Edge coverage, its usually able to trade 1 on 1 with most things, its slowness, lack of lefties hurts though, and usually Wak isnt really that good on those teams, but theres some potential there and good defensive qualities, it can also somewhat pivot into Zapdos once lol, obviously a staple of Ninjask teams lol
36 -
- Ninjask may be legit lol, tbh its a bit fishy but I can genuinely see Mag+Jask as a subtype of Mag Offense that is dangerous, especially with middleman Celebi for the Chain-pass, its a lame style used by lame people but its honestly legit and threatning lol, none of this Sand Attack BS tbh, use Silver Wind+HPRock or ToxTect imo with a Leech Seed mon, I may build a bit with this mon, the lack of defensive qualities + the fact its incredibely meh as a standalone mon makes it a bit unappealing though, also the fact RoarPert/RoarCune/RoarZap/RoarMence tend to fuck it, though its usually outplayable, IceZap sucks for those Jask teams though
Final thoughts:
- I am likely going into a break of ADV OU
- I only ranked mons I think are useful/worth bringing, so yes that means no Breloom, sorry not sorry
- Some mons may enter the Uncertainty list soon, Regirock and Smeargle are some I am considering should enter that territory
- Everything is ordered
- Much thanks for everyone for being supporting, even though this list is ultimately a bit pointless, I had a bit of fun writing it
- Have a nice day.
Approved by vapicuno
Hey everyone, going to open submissions for the ADV OU VR for 2024!
If you wish to submit a VR, you have to send me a PM (Smogon or Discord (goldmason)). Should you meet the criteria to feature in the VRs, I will send you a Google Form that you will fill. That's pretty much it!
Here is a clear list of criteria for the VR submission, you must meet at least one of them to be part of the VR update:
Tiermaker link if you wanna post a nice tierlist
Hey everyone, going to open submissions for the ADV OU VR for 2024!
If you wish to submit a VR, you have to send me a PM (Smogon or Discord (goldmason)). Should you meet the criteria to feature in the VRs, I will send you a Google Form that you will fill. That's pretty much it!
Here is a clear list of criteria for the VR submission, you must meet at least one of them to be part of the VR update:
- Made Top8 of ADV Cup
- Played in the most recent Jimvitational (play-ins not included)
- Made Top6 in the last Seasonal or Championship
- Reached 1850 on the ladder in the last 6 months
Tiermaker link if you wanna post a nice tierlist
It's about time for one of these, coming up on my one-year anniversary playing ADV OU. Do note that this viability ranking omits every mon I haven't used in any meaningful capacity. The only ones I think matter are Blaziken and Venusaur.
In text form:
S tier (Metagame Defining)
1. Tyranitar
2. Skarmory
3. Swampert
4. Metagross
A tier (Strong)
5. Salamence
6. Zapdos
7. Gengar
8. Jirachi
9. Blissey
10. Suicune
11. Celebi
12. Aerodactyl
13. Claydol
14. Moltres
15. Snorlax
16. Charizard
B tier (Needs more support, but good overall)
17. Starmie
18. Dugtrio
19. Magneton
20. Flygon
21. Forretress
22. Jolteon
23. Milotic
24. Heracross
25. Medicham
26. Gyarados
=== (this is where I believe OU proper ends) ===
27. Breloom
28. Raikou
29. Cloyster
30. Vaporeon
31. Kingdra
32. Porygon2
33. Ludicolo
34. Smeargle
35. Jynx
36. Regirock
37. Slaking
C Tier (Workable, but rare or hard to justify)
38. Hariyama
39. Marowak
40. Machamp
41. Weezing
42. Registeel
43. Armaldo
44. Regice
45. Alakazam
46. Houndoom
47. Quagsire
48. Glalie
D Tier (only usable on like 2 teams)
49. Scizor
50. Camerupt
51. Misdreavus
52. Steelix
Rather than defend every single placement, I'd prefer to just take a look at a couple of prominent ones.
A) Swampert #3
Compared to Metagross, Zapdos, Salamence, and all the others I've seen top players rank higher, I think Swampert is the most centralizing. It singlehandedly streamlines both teambuilding and lines versus so many opposing matchups. It's the most prevalent mixed attacker in the tier; a cut above Salamence due to its more comprehensive defensive traits.
STAB Hydro Pump + Earthquake is notoriously difficult to switch into, and defensive Pokemon that can do this safely are prized for this ability. Protect hard wins against a ton of physical spam teams where the main goal is to break it. Roar puts you ahead in info wars and against most grounded answers that are spikes weak themselves. For the Surf set, Toxic doesn't land on many permanent targets that like eating Surf but constrains your opponent's ability to switch in and also stop it from healing with Protect. It also wears Natural Cure targets down for cleanup or easier breaking later.
I'd put defpert alone in like the #10 slot, but on offensive sets the sheer amount of different matchups you can blow out of the water with your utility move of choice is mind-boggling. Refresh offpert mauls flier-heavy teams like Superman, Curse takes pressure off of Skarm / Lax by stopping bulky waters, and Focus Punch for things like Jolt / Molt / specoff that need Bliss or Lax out pronto.
Not a big fan of the Mag/Cloy adjacent lose to skarm sets, like EQ + Ice or HP Rock, but this stems from a larger dislike of defensive mag balance anyways.
Swampert is better than Salamence / Meta both because the really good defensive sets offer a ton for anything that can run it, while simultaneously having the option to improve your matchup spread versus certain targets.
B) Moltres > Charizard
This argument stems from skill ceiling. Moltres has a higher potential at top level play despite being restricted to fewer teams, and I place usability slightly ahead of versatility.
Moltres is restrictive, both when fighting it and using it. I find it hard to build with, and have just resorted to stealing teams from top players instead. It can't do too much on offense aside from some Cloy + Molt stuff I like, simply because you struggle to fit both it + enough things that immediately threaten Skarm + Bliss or Bliss + Pert without getting destroyed by fast revenge killers like Aero / Jolt / Offmie (open to any counterexamples here). In return, a bad Moltres matchup is pretty nasty to recover from: something the Hera offenses of the past found out the hard way. The (relatively) recent rise of AeroBi / AeroRachi spikes offense and longer decline of things like Refresh Claydol (and slightly Tox + Tect Skarm) tilt the balance more in Moltres' favor.
Moltres breaks through most of its checks in a more consistent way than Charizard can accomplish alone. Wisp + Sand + Spikes drastically reduces the effective health of Suicune, Milotic, and Blissey. Modest Roar or Timid Overheat rewards punishing conventional lines and doubles to things like Phys / VILTar under spikes to force progress. You don't have to fear bulky waters nearly as often as Charizard does.
Charizard is a lot more polarizing matchup: any team that can't take Focus Punch + FireGrass will almost instantly fold: that said, any team that does this also just loses to Mixmence. It's just a lot better at running away with games than Moltres because of the 50/50s it forces: immediately threatening Blissey is no joke. The downside is it thuds into everything Moltres can eventually wear down or burn, plus some others: Milo / Cune / Defmie, Gyarados, Aero, Mence, Roar Molt, and potentially Defgon. It's not self-sufficient. Any attempt to circumvent some of these matchups fails harder into others: all special variants packing Dclaw or HP Ice + Brick and Beat Up are even more useless into water types, all but mandating boomspam or Zapdos, and no fighting moves enables enemy DD Tar and Lax. You don't, however, need spikes with Zard, though it is appreciated: so its lower potential is spread across a wider variety of teamstyles like mixoff, CM pass, and skarm beatdown.
C) Medicham OU
I'm not sure how controversial this is, but I think the uptick in usage especially from players like SEA + Mana can spread to the larger metagame. Unlike Hera / Loom, you can kinda squint past the physmence weakness with a variety of different tools like White Herb and Bulk Up, and it's gotten more people to speed creep their Zapdos to 285 to outrun it. The banded set's riding the prediction wave that's affected (IMO) more visible Band Tar and Slaking usage, though I don't think Choice Band is the way to go without resorting to wish + Milo defensive structures. The main thing holding it back in my view is what teams people feel okay with using it on: you gotta have pert / meta / defrachi covered with exactly Mag Cune Lax, right? Medi + Zard (or if you're insane, Molt) has more potential than I think people give it at first glance. Make of my limited perspective what you will.
Do not delude yourself into thinking Breloom is still worth its place. Your time is coming.
Hit the qualifications on ladder for the new VR update! I also achieved rank 1 on the ladder! Here are my extremely based takes on the metagame. (Note: I have only been playing adv for 4-5 months...so be nice)
Why
Pert is not as splashable onto defensive teams as I once thought.
Every loom set has huge flaws that have to be made up for by other team members:
Base 70 speed is not fast enough to outspeed common bulky attackers. (Molt and Offcune come to mind).
Good players can often outplay your suit-tar.
Sleep is unreliable even for the user. One turn wake ups can ruin Breloom's day (with decent odds).
Medicham's usage has been very high as of late:
Smeargle is unpredictable and its counters vary based on its moves:
Vs
#1?
- Ultimately came down to what teams I thought were the most consistent.
- Tar is great don't get me wrong, but certain mons like lax, cune, bliss, and rest zap all hate sand.
- Slower paced teams with weather clear are exceptionally good into the current metagame and having a tar on your team ruins it.
- I think spikes are the most effective way to make progress in the tier.
- Skarm is the best spiker by far.
- Its also the only mon immune to all three aspects of TSS.
Why
ranked so low?
Pert is not as splashable onto defensive teams as I once thought.- Spin + Wish support is wanted (But Dol + Pert is hard to make work).
- Makes your team weak into mixed attackers.
- Pert can only handle 1.5-2 physical threats.
- One mon sacs to make pert unable to check the other threats.
- Easy to lure in and cripple.
- Clean entry point for skarm.
- Often needs to run pump for skarm (not good odds to hit multiple pumps in a row).
- Has good coverage for switch-ins but cannot trade due to defensive obligations. (Easy to exploit this)
- Entry point for strong special attackers that offensive teams have shaky answers for.
is Bad!
Every loom set has huge flaws that have to be made up for by other team members:- Sub loom can't fit reliable fighting move + coverage.
- Triple fighting move loom gets stuffed by ghosts and flyers.
- Stun spore doesn't work 1/4 of the time and drops a crucial attacking move
- Dropping mach punch means:
- Suit tar cannot KO dug
- DDTar w/ DE can wreck your team.
Base 70 speed is not fast enough to outspeed common bulky attackers. (Molt and Offcune come to mind).
Good players can often outplay your suit-tar.
Sleep is unreliable even for the user. One turn wake ups can ruin Breloom's day (with decent odds).
+
Could be Argued to be OU
Medicham's usage has been very high as of late:- Gets good natural coverage so you don't have to rely on hidden power.
- Hard to switch into with high attack and good coverage.
- Sits at a awkward speed tier for defensive mons.
- Bulk is just good enough to live most neutral hits from full.
- Harder to revenge kill than other fighters.
Smeargle is unpredictable and its counters vary based on its moves:
- Double status is awesome.
- Wisp/T-wave cripple common revenge killers.
- DD + Encore beats greedy substitutes.
- Encore + DBond is almost guaranteed value.
- DD + BP + Taunt can win at game start.
Can you expand on this a bit. In particular, I don't see how Zapdos is #1 and Blissy is D-tier. I would have thought consistently checking the #1 Pokemon (and checking many sets of the #2) would be worth at least a B ranking.
It's rated roughly on how many times something appears in the tournament team folders in my builder, with a lil bit of poking around. There was 1 bliss team in there and I don't use it.
S tier
Tyranitar
The King of Mons(ters). Sweeping (Dragon Dance), Breaking ( Dragon Dance, Mix, BKC, Band) and Support ( Taunt Toxic, Pursuit, Roar). Tyranitar excels in whichever role it fills. Sand alone is enough to make Tyranitar S tier in my opinion. Negating leftovers helps massively in limiting fat Mons; Choice Band/ Berry Mons can be scouted; and very importantly Speed order can be determined. Overall, Tyranitar is extremely consistent and extremely impactful. Bulky DDTar is my favourite set for sure.
Skarmory
The Utility Mon. Access to Spikes , Phasing and Toxic means that Skarmory can provide great support to its team without having to fear about being too passive. Skarmory's great bulk allows it to act as a stop gap against majority of the tier's threats, allowing you to conserve health on your other defensive Mons. Options such as Taunt and Thief are additional great options that can swing games around. All these great options in combination to being immune to Toxic, Sand and Spikes make Skarmory a long lasting defensive tool.
A tier
The Swiss Army Knife of ADV. Standard Phys Def, Mono Pert ( SurfToxRefreshProtect) and even Curse Pert are all amazing Physically defensive walls that can also make a lot of progress. Offensive Pert ( Modest 4 attacks) , Offensive Substitute, and Endeavour Pert are all lethal offensive sets that punch holes into teams, especially those lacking proper Water resists.
Competitive Perfection. Gengar's typing and ability grant it a ton of entry opportunities. Immunity to Toxic, Fighting Moves, Normal Moves, and Ground moves goes a long way in a tier where said coverage is everywhere. Normal immunity being pivotal in its role as a spinblocker but also allowing for Gengar to eat up opposing Explosions. Toxic Immunity means Gengar can come in freely on Skarmory's lacking Drill Peck, and freely spam Will-o-Wisp. In combination with Spikes and Sand, WoW + Taunt can break any grounded target in the tier. Gengar's amazing offensive stats creates openings for spamming Will-o-Wisp. If you can get Gengar in front of Mons like Salamence and Swampert, you can spam Will-o-Wisp as they will fear being knocked out by super effective coverage. Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Explosion, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis ; Gengar has quite a few tricks up its sleeve. If only Will-o-Wisp was an accurate move..
The Blob. Blissey's insane Special bulk allows it to check all Special threats in the tier lacking recovery. However, its strengths do not stop there. Blissey has a variety of great support moves at its disposal. Toxic, Thunder Wave,Sing and Counter are all great tools to punish any threats that get complacent in front of Blissey. Aromatherapy and Wish are amazing support options to sustain fatter teams. And perhaps my favourite Blissey set, Calm Mind Blissey can be lethal to teams who have let their physical threats fall. In recent times, people have greatly exaggerated Blissey's shortcomings. The truth is, Blissey is one of the most meta defining Mons in the tier and for good reason.
Zapdos hits like an absolute truck , threatening to OHKO and 2HKO the majority of the tier. Its firepower allows it to force switches and generate momentum very quickly. Access to moves like Thunder Wave, Toxic , Baton Pass and Roar allow Zapdos to maintain momentum and forces opponents to stay on their feet. Physical sets ,though real, I feel are a bit gimmicky and generally not worth pursuing. Zapdos is amazing as a defensive Mon too, Specially Defensive Rest sets can shutdown the mixed attackers of the tier as well as prevent Calm Mind sweepers from running away with the game.
The best Mixed Attacker. Salamence's great offensive stats and speed make it a force to be reckoned with. Mixed set is its best set imo. Dragon Claw/ Fire Blast/ HP Grass/ Brick Break allows Mence to hit everything hard. Mixed sets definitely require Spikes support, as without them you will miss out on a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Dragon Dance Mence is an amazing offense stomper but a lot less consistent than the Mixed set. Intimidate is a super clutch ability defensively that can also provide set up opportunities for Mence.
Jirachi pisses a lot of people off and for good reason. The only Mon in the tier with 3 different 6-0 sets. Fear/AstaRachi , Sub Calm Mind and SuperRachi all have matchups where they are absolutely lethal. I'd say Fear/ AstaRachi are its best sets however. A Wish user who heals in sand and spams Burns and Paralysis can be extremely frustrating to play against when you don't have a Mon who can eat up Status. I have Jirachi higher than most because I believe it is unparalleled in its ability to shutdown games. However , its not higher due to the fact it gets crippled by Status and is prone to being trapped.
Offensive powerhouse that is basically unwallable. I would have Metagross higher if not for its slow speed and being prone to being trapped.
B Tier
GOATed Speed Demon. In combination with Spikes, Aero is extremely effective at breaking and sweeping. Unfortunately, a lot of teams in higher level play are built specifically to mitigate the impact of the Rock Attackers in the tier . This of course makes things painful for Aero, who has to choose the correct move for any of the multiple rock resists, to not waste its hard earned entry opportunity. Choice Band of course is its best set, however Substitute Leichi is definitely viable on Hyper Offense Builds and Lefties Aerodactyl can work on Pressure builds. Despite its struggles against fat teams with multiple rock resists, Aero is still strong in most matchups and is still one of the tiers greatest threats to me.
Noob Stomper. That being said, Suicune of course is still strong even against good players. Defensive or Offensive, Suicune can be a difficult Mon to handle due to its amazing bulk. However I have placed Suicune in B tier because its vulnerability to all 3 of Toxic , Sand and Spikes can make it feel hard to get going in a lot of matchups. Even if you manage to remove Mons like Blissey and Celebi to try get your sweep off, you may be met with a Metagross or Snorlax waiting in the back. Great Mon for sure, but this generation provided a lot of tools to help mitigate its impact.
The only good Grass type. Offensive sets ( Leech 3A and CM) are great at making progress ; Defensive sets can be tough to break down and can provide unique utility ( Heal Bell and Perish Song) ; and Baton Pass (SD and CM) sets can shutdown games very quickly. Celebi does all these roles pretty well. However it has some big issues. Celebi can allow in many of the tiers great threats. Mons like Aerodactyl, Salamence, Charizard, and Moltres can come in on potential HP Fire and or Giga Drains with little issue and force Celebi out (being Leech Seeded isn't the worst thing in the world for these threats, especially if Spikes are up they can happily take the chip for the entry opportunity). Celebis lacking Recover are quickly worn down by Spikes. Missing Leech Seed once or twice when Spikes are up can be devastating. Defensive Celebi sets can find themselves hardwalled/ defeated by opposing Celebi. Lastly, Celebi is prone to being trapped by Dugtrio as well as potentially being Pursuit Trapped by Tyranitar and Houndoom.
Number 1 Spinner. Being a Rapid Spinner who is immune to Spikes makes managing Spikes a lot easier. Access to STAB Psychic to fight the tiers premier Spinblocker Gengar, Explosion to not become fodder, and access to Refresh all make Claydol a Mon that can be difficult to dispatch . Claydol can act as a decent check to the Dragon Dancers of the tier too. It's not higher in this list mainly because it has little offensive presence.
Best trapper. Bulky Dug is the crux of most Special Offense. Offensive Dug is a must on V5 builds. Even with 80 Attack, Dugtrio is a massive threat. However Dugtrio can act as a fail point for the teams its on. Free Spikes, Free Substitutes, and Free Dragon Dances are potential issues that Dug teams may run into after Dug has trapped a Mon. Especially on Special Offense, giving a Mon like Salamence free set up could be a death sentence. Ultimately, great offensive Mon that also creates serious defensive deficiencies in a team. Porygon2 trapping it isn't that big a deal , I wouldn't say it affects Dugtrios overall viability.
Starmie's offensive sets without Recover are quite easy to handle. However Offmie with Recover can be a menace. Defensive Starmie can be a pain to dislodge with Offensive teams as you often have to trade or eat a Thunder Wave to take it out. Natural Cure, Recover and Rapid Spin make DefMie a great Support Mon. However being a grounded Spinner isn't great and Defmie can feel a lot worse against fatter teams.
Snorlax is a great Mon with amazing bulk and great Attack, . However, its prone to being worn down by Spikes and hates being Statusd. Once you're able to scout its set, it becomes a managable Mon. Rest sets require a lot of support to function well. Non- rest sets can feel like they get worn down quickly without getting a ton of progress a good portion of the time. However despite its shortcomings, it can still be an insane progress maker. Curse not even required. It can also function as an amazing breaker for your other threats with Focus Punch and Explosion to beatdown down Skarm.
The best Fire type. Great Speed and unwallable coverage ( unless your opponent has milotic lol). Fire move/HP Grass/ Substitute / Focus Punch is my favourite set as it capitalises on Charizard's ability to force switches. The ability to have controlled activation of Blaze is amazing, allowing you to secure KOs usually not achievable. Fire Blast/ HP Ice/ Toxic/ Beat Up is another amazing set, allowing you to cook teams that try use Mence/ Flygon as stop gaps for your Zard. Beat Up being a great way to attack Blissey , however usually you're best off actually clicking Toxic after Blissey first comes in, to punish the Beat Up scout ( just a lil tip for you non savvy folk heh..). Dragon Claw is a legit option but I think its pretty mediocre tbh.
Runner up. Moltres is a strong offensive threat but it loses out on both coverage and Speed to Zard. On certain structures, I do believe that Moltres can be better than Zard due to the notable increase in firepower and bulk. Moltres has its niche and is still great, even if overshadowed by Zard in most situations.
C tier
The Bane of Mixed Attackers. I honestly think Milotic is a great Mon on the defensive teams its used in. Surf/Toxic/Refresh/Recover is a solid set in nearly all matchups. However it requires a lot of support ; Spin Support, Spikes to help it make progress and Blissey + Dug to help fight the CM users. C tier feels a bit harsh but my list is somewhat offensively biased, with Mons who are great at making progress being favoured.
Mid. Tbh I used to hate on Flygon but it definitely has its niche in the tier. Superman's premier Rock Resist. However , when defensively invested, it hits like a wet sponge, which is unfortunate. Offensive Flygon is the definition of mediocre. Sure you might get a win with it once in 15 games, but if we're honest, you could probably win the exact same scenarios using Mence.
Mid. Being able to Spike and Spin on the same Mon is definitely cool, and teams that provide it support ( namely Pursuit Tyranitar) can work super well. However , Forretress has its issues. It can be trapped by Magneton. If its not carrying HP Ghost or Zap Cannon, it provides free entry for Gengar, who also blocks its Rapid Spin. If you carry moves to try punish entries from Gengar, Zapdos and Fire birds, you'll likely end up having a set that can become fodder for DDTtar/Suicune/etc. No matter which move you drop, the impact can be felt.
The Skarmory Killer. Magneton does its role of eliminating Skarmory pretty well. It can dispatch Forretress if it has HP Fire or if sufficient chip is done for Thunderbolt to eliminate. Using Status and Chipping Metagross and Jirachi is also incredibly valuable. Despite executing the trapping role very well, Magneton provides little defensive utility to its team. Taking 40% from attacks it resists, not having leftovers in most cases so it gets worn down by Spikes quickly, not being able to do anything to Blissey, being proned to being trapped by Dug and opposing Magneton ; Magneton can begin to feel like deadweight in a lot of matchups. If you're wondering why Dugtrio can suffer from similar issues but be placed so much higher, its simply because Dugtrio threatens so many more Mons.
Potential Man. If Megahorn consistently hit, Heracross would definitely be higher. The best Fighting type in the tier for sure, but still suffers from unreliability due to inaccurate moves. It's a good enough Mon to justify running Weather Clear to enable its Salac sets, where it can throw off crazy powerful Reversals and Swarm boosted Megahorns.
Zapdos at home. Jolteon's amazing Speed provides it a niche seperate from Zapdos. However , it has the same move options with way less bulk, weaker offensive output and no ground immunity meaning it'll rack up Spikes damage quickly. It also always has to run Baton Pass to avoid getting trapped, constraining its moveset options. I don't think Wish is a game changer by any means.
One Trick Pony. Once you choose a sleep sack, and pivot out into your Fighting Resist/ immunity, you can relax knowing that Breloom has already exerted most of its value. Breloom's bulk ,vulnerability to Spikes, and complete fear of Status make Breloom a very managable Mon. It definitely can pose a threat when its set is not revealed yet. Stun Spore to cripple Mence/ Gars that think its safe to come in post sleep sack is fire af. Sub Leech can be a pain to handle if you don't have a Mon that can eat a Focus Punch. That being said, a common theme with all Breloom sets is 4 moveslot syndrome. Always left feeling like you just need one more move to be able to hit enough things.
The Gambling Pokemon. Especially off lead, if you guess correctly you can start the game with a KO. However , its low bulk, weakness to Spikes and average Speed make getting entry opportunities for it difficult. It is also prone to getting trapped by Dug and Pursuit TTar ( for band sets locked into Shadow Ball or Rock Slide). Salac sets are definitely cool but I do prefer Hera.
Gyarados has solid bulk and the unique niche of being able to use Water types as set up fodder. It's low placement is mainly because it sort of just loses to a lot of the top Mons in the tier. Not a bad Mon by any means, but the metagame is just unkind to it. Taunt, Twave and even Rest are decent options but I don't think they fix the overarching issues with Gyara.
D tier
Smeargle only fits on Hyper Offense due to its frailty and low speed. Super cool Mon though and definitely has viability, not a Mon that can be disregarded. I think my favourite set to see ( not because of how good it is but i just find it funny) is the Belly Drum Explosion set lol
Cancer. I don't think it's broken but it is just super unfun and boring to play against. Definitely a negative presence on the metagame. Unfortunately a real Mon despite my views on it, single handedly gives Marowak a career.
There are more Mons with niches in the tier, but I feel this list covers all the main ones.
Tyranitar
The King of Mons(ters). Sweeping (Dragon Dance), Breaking ( Dragon Dance, Mix, BKC, Band) and Support ( Taunt Toxic, Pursuit, Roar). Tyranitar excels in whichever role it fills. Sand alone is enough to make Tyranitar S tier in my opinion. Negating leftovers helps massively in limiting fat Mons; Choice Band/ Berry Mons can be scouted; and very importantly Speed order can be determined. Overall, Tyranitar is extremely consistent and extremely impactful. Bulky DDTar is my favourite set for sure.
Skarmory
The Utility Mon. Access to Spikes , Phasing and Toxic means that Skarmory can provide great support to its team without having to fear about being too passive. Skarmory's great bulk allows it to act as a stop gap against majority of the tier's threats, allowing you to conserve health on your other defensive Mons. Options such as Taunt and Thief are additional great options that can swing games around. All these great options in combination to being immune to Toxic, Sand and Spikes make Skarmory a long lasting defensive tool.
A tier
The Swiss Army Knife of ADV. Standard Phys Def, Mono Pert ( SurfToxRefreshProtect) and even Curse Pert are all amazing Physically defensive walls that can also make a lot of progress. Offensive Pert ( Modest 4 attacks) , Offensive Substitute, and Endeavour Pert are all lethal offensive sets that punch holes into teams, especially those lacking proper Water resists.
Competitive Perfection. Gengar's typing and ability grant it a ton of entry opportunities. Immunity to Toxic, Fighting Moves, Normal Moves, and Ground moves goes a long way in a tier where said coverage is everywhere. Normal immunity being pivotal in its role as a spinblocker but also allowing for Gengar to eat up opposing Explosions. Toxic Immunity means Gengar can come in freely on Skarmory's lacking Drill Peck, and freely spam Will-o-Wisp. In combination with Spikes and Sand, WoW + Taunt can break any grounded target in the tier. Gengar's amazing offensive stats creates openings for spamming Will-o-Wisp. If you can get Gengar in front of Mons like Salamence and Swampert, you can spam Will-o-Wisp as they will fear being knocked out by super effective coverage. Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Explosion, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis ; Gengar has quite a few tricks up its sleeve. If only Will-o-Wisp was an accurate move..
The Blob. Blissey's insane Special bulk allows it to check all Special threats in the tier lacking recovery. However, its strengths do not stop there. Blissey has a variety of great support moves at its disposal. Toxic, Thunder Wave,Sing and Counter are all great tools to punish any threats that get complacent in front of Blissey. Aromatherapy and Wish are amazing support options to sustain fatter teams. And perhaps my favourite Blissey set, Calm Mind Blissey can be lethal to teams who have let their physical threats fall. In recent times, people have greatly exaggerated Blissey's shortcomings. The truth is, Blissey is one of the most meta defining Mons in the tier and for good reason.
Zapdos hits like an absolute truck , threatening to OHKO and 2HKO the majority of the tier. Its firepower allows it to force switches and generate momentum very quickly. Access to moves like Thunder Wave, Toxic , Baton Pass and Roar allow Zapdos to maintain momentum and forces opponents to stay on their feet. Physical sets ,though real, I feel are a bit gimmicky and generally not worth pursuing. Zapdos is amazing as a defensive Mon too, Specially Defensive Rest sets can shutdown the mixed attackers of the tier as well as prevent Calm Mind sweepers from running away with the game.
The best Mixed Attacker. Salamence's great offensive stats and speed make it a force to be reckoned with. Mixed set is its best set imo. Dragon Claw/ Fire Blast/ HP Grass/ Brick Break allows Mence to hit everything hard. Mixed sets definitely require Spikes support, as without them you will miss out on a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Dragon Dance Mence is an amazing offense stomper but a lot less consistent than the Mixed set. Intimidate is a super clutch ability defensively that can also provide set up opportunities for Mence.
Jirachi pisses a lot of people off and for good reason. The only Mon in the tier with 3 different 6-0 sets. Fear/AstaRachi , Sub Calm Mind and SuperRachi all have matchups where they are absolutely lethal. I'd say Fear/ AstaRachi are its best sets however. A Wish user who heals in sand and spams Burns and Paralysis can be extremely frustrating to play against when you don't have a Mon who can eat up Status. I have Jirachi higher than most because I believe it is unparalleled in its ability to shutdown games. However , its not higher due to the fact it gets crippled by Status and is prone to being trapped.
Offensive powerhouse that is basically unwallable. I would have Metagross higher if not for its slow speed and being prone to being trapped.
B Tier
GOATed Speed Demon. In combination with Spikes, Aero is extremely effective at breaking and sweeping. Unfortunately, a lot of teams in higher level play are built specifically to mitigate the impact of the Rock Attackers in the tier . This of course makes things painful for Aero, who has to choose the correct move for any of the multiple rock resists, to not waste its hard earned entry opportunity. Choice Band of course is its best set, however Substitute Leichi is definitely viable on Hyper Offense Builds and Lefties Aerodactyl can work on Pressure builds. Despite its struggles against fat teams with multiple rock resists, Aero is still strong in most matchups and is still one of the tiers greatest threats to me.
Noob Stomper. That being said, Suicune of course is still strong even against good players. Defensive or Offensive, Suicune can be a difficult Mon to handle due to its amazing bulk. However I have placed Suicune in B tier because its vulnerability to all 3 of Toxic , Sand and Spikes can make it feel hard to get going in a lot of matchups. Even if you manage to remove Mons like Blissey and Celebi to try get your sweep off, you may be met with a Metagross or Snorlax waiting in the back. Great Mon for sure, but this generation provided a lot of tools to help mitigate its impact.
The only good Grass type. Offensive sets ( Leech 3A and CM) are great at making progress ; Defensive sets can be tough to break down and can provide unique utility ( Heal Bell and Perish Song) ; and Baton Pass (SD and CM) sets can shutdown games very quickly. Celebi does all these roles pretty well. However it has some big issues. Celebi can allow in many of the tiers great threats. Mons like Aerodactyl, Salamence, Charizard, and Moltres can come in on potential HP Fire and or Giga Drains with little issue and force Celebi out (being Leech Seeded isn't the worst thing in the world for these threats, especially if Spikes are up they can happily take the chip for the entry opportunity). Celebis lacking Recover are quickly worn down by Spikes. Missing Leech Seed once or twice when Spikes are up can be devastating. Defensive Celebi sets can find themselves hardwalled/ defeated by opposing Celebi. Lastly, Celebi is prone to being trapped by Dugtrio as well as potentially being Pursuit Trapped by Tyranitar and Houndoom.
Number 1 Spinner. Being a Rapid Spinner who is immune to Spikes makes managing Spikes a lot easier. Access to STAB Psychic to fight the tiers premier Spinblocker Gengar, Explosion to not become fodder, and access to Refresh all make Claydol a Mon that can be difficult to dispatch . Claydol can act as a decent check to the Dragon Dancers of the tier too. It's not higher in this list mainly because it has little offensive presence.
Best trapper. Bulky Dug is the crux of most Special Offense. Offensive Dug is a must on V5 builds. Even with 80 Attack, Dugtrio is a massive threat. However Dugtrio can act as a fail point for the teams its on. Free Spikes, Free Substitutes, and Free Dragon Dances are potential issues that Dug teams may run into after Dug has trapped a Mon. Especially on Special Offense, giving a Mon like Salamence free set up could be a death sentence. Ultimately, great offensive Mon that also creates serious defensive deficiencies in a team. Porygon2 trapping it isn't that big a deal , I wouldn't say it affects Dugtrios overall viability.
Starmie's offensive sets without Recover are quite easy to handle. However Offmie with Recover can be a menace. Defensive Starmie can be a pain to dislodge with Offensive teams as you often have to trade or eat a Thunder Wave to take it out. Natural Cure, Recover and Rapid Spin make DefMie a great Support Mon. However being a grounded Spinner isn't great and Defmie can feel a lot worse against fatter teams.
Snorlax is a great Mon with amazing bulk and great Attack, . However, its prone to being worn down by Spikes and hates being Statusd. Once you're able to scout its set, it becomes a managable Mon. Rest sets require a lot of support to function well. Non- rest sets can feel like they get worn down quickly without getting a ton of progress a good portion of the time. However despite its shortcomings, it can still be an insane progress maker. Curse not even required. It can also function as an amazing breaker for your other threats with Focus Punch and Explosion to beatdown down Skarm.
The best Fire type. Great Speed and unwallable coverage ( unless your opponent has milotic lol). Fire move/HP Grass/ Substitute / Focus Punch is my favourite set as it capitalises on Charizard's ability to force switches. The ability to have controlled activation of Blaze is amazing, allowing you to secure KOs usually not achievable. Fire Blast/ HP Ice/ Toxic/ Beat Up is another amazing set, allowing you to cook teams that try use Mence/ Flygon as stop gaps for your Zard. Beat Up being a great way to attack Blissey , however usually you're best off actually clicking Toxic after Blissey first comes in, to punish the Beat Up scout ( just a lil tip for you non savvy folk heh..). Dragon Claw is a legit option but I think its pretty mediocre tbh.
Runner up. Moltres is a strong offensive threat but it loses out on both coverage and Speed to Zard. On certain structures, I do believe that Moltres can be better than Zard due to the notable increase in firepower and bulk. Moltres has its niche and is still great, even if overshadowed by Zard in most situations.
C tier
The Bane of Mixed Attackers. I honestly think Milotic is a great Mon on the defensive teams its used in. Surf/Toxic/Refresh/Recover is a solid set in nearly all matchups. However it requires a lot of support ; Spin Support, Spikes to help it make progress and Blissey + Dug to help fight the CM users. C tier feels a bit harsh but my list is somewhat offensively biased, with Mons who are great at making progress being favoured.
Mid. Tbh I used to hate on Flygon but it definitely has its niche in the tier. Superman's premier Rock Resist. However , when defensively invested, it hits like a wet sponge, which is unfortunate. Offensive Flygon is the definition of mediocre. Sure you might get a win with it once in 15 games, but if we're honest, you could probably win the exact same scenarios using Mence.
Mid. Being able to Spike and Spin on the same Mon is definitely cool, and teams that provide it support ( namely Pursuit Tyranitar) can work super well. However , Forretress has its issues. It can be trapped by Magneton. If its not carrying HP Ghost or Zap Cannon, it provides free entry for Gengar, who also blocks its Rapid Spin. If you carry moves to try punish entries from Gengar, Zapdos and Fire birds, you'll likely end up having a set that can become fodder for DDTtar/Suicune/etc. No matter which move you drop, the impact can be felt.
The Skarmory Killer. Magneton does its role of eliminating Skarmory pretty well. It can dispatch Forretress if it has HP Fire or if sufficient chip is done for Thunderbolt to eliminate. Using Status and Chipping Metagross and Jirachi is also incredibly valuable. Despite executing the trapping role very well, Magneton provides little defensive utility to its team. Taking 40% from attacks it resists, not having leftovers in most cases so it gets worn down by Spikes quickly, not being able to do anything to Blissey, being proned to being trapped by Dug and opposing Magneton ; Magneton can begin to feel like deadweight in a lot of matchups. If you're wondering why Dugtrio can suffer from similar issues but be placed so much higher, its simply because Dugtrio threatens so many more Mons.
Potential Man. If Megahorn consistently hit, Heracross would definitely be higher. The best Fighting type in the tier for sure, but still suffers from unreliability due to inaccurate moves. It's a good enough Mon to justify running Weather Clear to enable its Salac sets, where it can throw off crazy powerful Reversals and Swarm boosted Megahorns.
Zapdos at home. Jolteon's amazing Speed provides it a niche seperate from Zapdos. However , it has the same move options with way less bulk, weaker offensive output and no ground immunity meaning it'll rack up Spikes damage quickly. It also always has to run Baton Pass to avoid getting trapped, constraining its moveset options. I don't think Wish is a game changer by any means.
One Trick Pony. Once you choose a sleep sack, and pivot out into your Fighting Resist/ immunity, you can relax knowing that Breloom has already exerted most of its value. Breloom's bulk ,vulnerability to Spikes, and complete fear of Status make Breloom a very managable Mon. It definitely can pose a threat when its set is not revealed yet. Stun Spore to cripple Mence/ Gars that think its safe to come in post sleep sack is fire af. Sub Leech can be a pain to handle if you don't have a Mon that can eat a Focus Punch. That being said, a common theme with all Breloom sets is 4 moveslot syndrome. Always left feeling like you just need one more move to be able to hit enough things.
The Gambling Pokemon. Especially off lead, if you guess correctly you can start the game with a KO. However , its low bulk, weakness to Spikes and average Speed make getting entry opportunities for it difficult. It is also prone to getting trapped by Dug and Pursuit TTar ( for band sets locked into Shadow Ball or Rock Slide). Salac sets are definitely cool but I do prefer Hera.
Gyarados has solid bulk and the unique niche of being able to use Water types as set up fodder. It's low placement is mainly because it sort of just loses to a lot of the top Mons in the tier. Not a bad Mon by any means, but the metagame is just unkind to it. Taunt, Twave and even Rest are decent options but I don't think they fix the overarching issues with Gyara.
D tier
Smeargle only fits on Hyper Offense due to its frailty and low speed. Super cool Mon though and definitely has viability, not a Mon that can be disregarded. I think my favourite set to see ( not because of how good it is but i just find it funny) is the Belly Drum Explosion set lol
Cancer. I don't think it's broken but it is just super unfun and boring to play against. Definitely a negative presence on the metagame. Unfortunately a real Mon despite my views on it, single handedly gives Marowak a career.
There are more Mons with niches in the tier, but I feel this list covers all the main ones.
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