Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Eeveeto]

Magearna is more broken with Specs + Trick than Stored Power sets will ever be. It also has 363467 other sets, while Stored Power is not broken or unhealthy on most other Mons.

Palafin is stupidly broken and one of the worst ideas ever to even consider bringing back. Offensive Water Mons should need Rain (or Sun in the case of Wake) to get broken level of power, we have enough with Waterpon as something that doesn't need Rain to be an enormous threat (personally I think it's more broken than Gliscor, but that's a discussion for another day), we don't need another one.

Rage Fist is fine on Primeape (also on Smeargle, but that Mon shouldn't count to decide about non-Status moves), so Annihilape gotta stay in Ubers forever.

Archaludon without Electro Shot does look fine (for me it was fine even with the move), but that's not how things work. Gotta pray we get Electro Shot Zapdos and Thundurus next gen.

Lugia too is probably fine, but let's get back to that discussion when we don't have like 5 OU Mons to Ban.

 

[UltraSword]

Gotta pray we get Electro Shot Zapdos and Thundurus next gen.

 

[Eeveeto]

View attachment 687326

Parting Shot was a Pangoro line exclusive move in Gen 6. Darkest Lariat was exclusive to Incineroar in Gen 7. Sparkling Aria was exclusive to Primarina in Gen 7 too. There are more examples. I don't think it will happen to Electro Shot, but it's not impossible.

 

[ant4456]

Banning signature moves is cringe, to me it gives the same vibe as banning a (non-forme change) signature ability or something (which is also cringe), literally the epitome of "We need to nerf something for it to be fine in OU" which is the lowest level, most degraded quality of tiering possible.

 

[RainWaiv]

back to this thread after a nice long veteran's day weekend so rapid fire round through the past 2-3 pages or so

I mean we did deal with it for what, 25+ years? We banned it because darkrai made y'all mad.

the real reason sleep was banned was because 1. the blanket solution to not make sleep completely busted went against pretty much every tiering policy and it really should have been banned initially and 2. the result of this was strategic sleep foddering which darkrai was able to completely bypass by having a 40% chance to whiff sleep and have the mon you sent in exclusively to take the status not even do that meaning it can press the button again. all that plus some other hypnosis stuff with ival that was pissing people off led to the rediscovery that altering cartridge mechanics in favor of a slightly more bearable version of sleep was a stupid tiering policy so sleep is now banned (and likely will be for future generations as well)

I never said that Tusk was unhealthy, just that people are exaggerating how healthy it is.

tusk is the literal one singular mon keeping this tier remotely playable. please start posting serious contributions to the thread.

Blissey isn't just "not outright oppresive", it's bad outside of Stall, a playstyle that is niche at best and quite fishy in this tier right now. Purifying Salt doesn't "make Garganacl harder to revenge kill", it just provides a status immunity and ghost resist which bolsters its defensive profile. Curse/Iron Defense are what make it less prone to revenge kills from physical attackers, but it's also vulnerable to Encore, Substitute and strong special breakers as well as Trick users if necessary. It's excellent for sure, but it doesn't even approach the border of slightly oppressive.

Also @ non rain Arch, if you want to make a real argument I'm all ears. Seriously. Pitch what it would do outside of rain that would at all justify its use over other steels.

Since everyone is talking about how stupid the idea that arch would be bad without rain is, i'm going to actually humor you and compare it to a few other steel types (really just the birds+h-goodra)
Arch is a generally great switchin to mons, particularly on balance teams. It has rocks (so do a ton of other mons) but you're sacrificing AV for it and not really much else so weigh that how you want. Sure, it lacks recovery, but it's so absurdly bulky that it's a relative nonissue as it WILL stick around just as long as the other birds. Stamina+better resistance spread (somewhat debatable but not really) than skarm makes it just as good as a physical wall if you choose to run boots, and as stated by others it completely shuts down waterpon. When not limited to "press electro shot and win" it actually has pretty solid set variety between an AV wall that can hit pretty hard, HDB pivot into pretty much any physical attacker in the tier except maybe zama and tusk, or pretty much whatever else you can think of off a mon with arch's absurd stat spread. Corv has the edge over it as an all-purpose wall but tusk is a great physical wall with tons of synergy that functions as a sort of sidegrade to skarm. There's always going to be a better option than arch at any given thing it can do but arch then has the advantage of being able to do everything it can do as well.

sorry this is a somewhat incohesive wall of text but i dont really see how to break it down lol

Lugia too is probably fine, but let's get back to that discussion when we don't have like 5 OU Mons to Ban.

"hey just take dragonite and make it twice as bulky but get rid of its priority surely that will be balanced"

Short follow-up on magearna since that happened midway through writing this post:
Magearna isnt even made broken solely through stored power anyways. it's just one of the factors that makes it hard to deal with. Magearna is bulky enough to set up multiple boosts through shift gear/calm mind and stored power is just one of the ways to capitalize off of it. Magearna also has a 130bp fairy nuke that loves boosting moves. even in gen 7, magearna only really ran SP on CM sets to capitalize off of those boosts since terrain wars were super common and it improved parity with lele (which was also fucking busted). I also feel like if you really want to compare mon's performances between generations, gen 7 is not exactly the best choice since that meta had a ton of bullshit that shouldn't have been allowed to stay (magearna, ash-greninja, lele, etc.)

tl;dr: sleep ban was way more complicated than "it's annoying on darkrai", tusk is keeping this metagame together, arch is good outside of rain, magearna should stay banned.

 

[UltraSword]

"hey just take dragonite and make it twice as bulky but get rid of its priority surely that will be balanced"

Thank you. This is exactly why I said Lugia should stay banned in the ou chat in pokemon showdown but NOOOOO people think lugia having multiscale roost and calm mind would be ok in ou. Finally someone is actually reasonable lol

Edit: I will say though if lugia never got multiscale in gen 5 though it probably would have been ou by like gen 6 or 7 (maybe gen 5 as well but I doubt it)

 

[RainebowValiant]

back to this thread after a nice long veteran's day weekend so rapid fire round through the past 2-3 pages or so

the real reason sleep was banned was because 1. the blanket solution to not make sleep completely busted went against pretty much every tiering policy and it really should have been banned initially and 2. the result of this was strategic sleep foddering which darkrai was able to completely bypass by having a 40% chance to whiff sleep and have the mon you sent in exclusively to take the status not even do that meaning it can press the button again. all that plus some other hypnosis stuff with ival that was pissing people off led to the rediscovery that altering cartridge mechanics in favor of a slightly more bearable version of sleep was a stupid tiering policy so sleep is now banned (and likely will be for future generations as well)

tusk is the literal one singular mon keeping this tier remotely playable. please start posting serious contributions to the thread.

Since everyone is talking about how stupid the idea that arch would be bad without rain is, i'm going to actually humor you and compare it to a few other steel types (really just the birds+h-goodra)
Arch is a generally great switchin to mons, particularly on balance teams. It has rocks (so do a ton of other mons) but you're sacrificing AV for it and not really much else so weigh that how you want. Sure, it lacks recovery, but it's so absurdly bulky that it's a relative nonissue as it WILL stick around just as long as the other birds. Stamina+better resistance spread (somewhat debatable but not really) than skarm makes it just as good as a physical wall if you choose to run boots, and as stated by others it completely shuts down waterpon. When not limited to "press electro shot and win" it actually has pretty solid set variety between an AV wall that can hit pretty hard, HDB pivot into pretty much any physical attacker in the tier except maybe zama and tusk, or pretty much whatever else you can think of off a mon with arch's absurd stat spread. Corv has the edge over it as an all-purpose wall but tusk is a great physical wall with tons of synergy that functions as a sort of sidegrade to skarm. There's always going to be a better option than arch at any given thing it can do but arch then has the advantage of being able to do everything it can do as well.

sorry this is a somewhat incohesive wall of text but i dont really see how to break it down lol

"hey just take dragonite and make it twice as bulky but get rid of its priority surely that will be balanced"

Short follow-up on magearna since that happened midway through writing this post:
Magearna isnt even made broken solely through stored power anyways. it's just one of the factors that makes it hard to deal with. Magearna is bulky enough to set up multiple boosts through shift gear/calm mind and stored power is just one of the ways to capitalize off of it. Magearna also has a 130bp fairy nuke that loves boosting moves. even in gen 7, magearna only really ran SP on CM sets to capitalize off of those boosts since terrain wars were super common and it improved parity with lele (which was also fucking busted). I also feel like if you really want to compare mon's performances between generations, gen 7 is not exactly the best choice since that meta had a ton of bullshit that shouldn't have been allowed to stay (magearna, ash-greninja, lele, etc.)

tl;dr: sleep ban was way more complicated than "it's annoying on darkrai", tusk is keeping this metagame together, arch is good outside of rain, magearna should stay banned.

New favourite smogonposter guys

1) sleep should be banned for the rest of eternity. I love Breloom and Amoonguss but they're necessary casualties and they're great in previous OU metagames so they'll be fine! That being said, I can't stop thinking that at least some of the DNB sleep people are just Amoonguss/Breloom fans.

2) Tusk is extremely healthy not much to say

3) also not much to say, Arch is good outside of rain (don't believe me? Just check monotype. I know it's not that great of a demonstration but honestly I dont care. Play monotype)

4) Magearna is fucked. That mon is if you gave a Kyurem-level breaker spikes, special moxie, way better bulk, the best type in the game, pivoting, shift gear, calm mind, and make it rain.

 

[Bold School]

How does archaludon break stall again? What does it do in the face of IronPress Corv, Amnesia Clodsire, and Toxapex?,

Before you say "omg arch nukes pex" pex takes a Draco and then switches to something that owns arch at -2.

Arch doesn't break stall.

To be fair, Arch does get other Electric moves like Thunderbolt. That could absolutely beat Corv and Pex. And Clod is simply beaten by a non-resistant physical move like EQ. Given that Body Press beats Blissey and Thunderbolt also beats Dozo, a mixed attacking Arch could actually be really good into stall.

 

[RainebowValiant]

To be fair, Arch does get other Electric moves like Thunderbolt. That could absolutely beat Corv and Pex. And Clod is simply beaten by a non-resistant physical move like EQ. Given that Body Press beats Blissey and Thunderbolt also beats Dozo, a mixed attacking Arch could actually be really good into stall.

Draco is necessary on this set for any MU other than stall, right?

EQ or else walled by clod
Tbolt or else walled by pex/corv
Body Press or else walled by blissey or tdark clod
Flash Cannon or else walled by clefable

Can't run Rocks, Twave, or IronPress...

I mean I guess mixed Arch can break stall given the right moveset for the matchup? Giving up all your utility like Twave and Rocks sucks and you can't beat every stall on one moveset but I mean it works?

Also you need HDB for hazards

So you need a specific item, 4 moves that do well into the enemy team, and you can't run utility, for a CHANCE to own a stall team. Idk.

 

[UltraSword]

To be fair, Arch does get other Electric moves like Thunderbolt. That could absolutely beat Corv and Pex. And Clod is simply beaten by a non-resistant physical move like EQ. Given that Body Press beats Blissey and Thunderbolt also beats Dozo, a mixed attacking Arch could actually be really good into stall.

It could even go without draco meteor and replace with flash cannon/heavy slam which not only beat clefable but also while those 2 moves are not as powerful as draco meteor are still good options for stab as steel does hit more things super effectively than dragon

Edit: Also without draco meteor, it is less likely that archaludon is forced out due to special attack drop

 

[RainebowValiant]

It could even go without draco meteor and replace with flash cannon/heavy slam which not only beat clefable but also while those 2 moves are not as powerful as draco meteor are still good options for stab as steel does hit more things super effectively than dragon

Powerful neutral damage is better than mediocre damage that hits two more types super effectively (and is resisted by water)

Draco Meteor is an insane move and outclasses Heavy Slam and Flash Cannon by millions of times. What

 

[UltraSword]

(and is resisted by water)

The thunderbolt from downtown:

No but seriously maybe draco-less archaludon would be worse against everything except stall but it isn't that bad and it does have advantages over a set with draco meteor

 

[RainWaiv]

Draco is necessary on this set for any MU other than stall, right?

EQ or else walled by clod
Tbolt or else walled by pex/corv
Body Press or else walled by blissey or tdark clod
Flash Cannon or else walled by clefable

Can't run Rocks, Twave, or IronPress...

I mean I guess mixed Arch can break stall given the right moveset for the matchup? Giving up all your utility like Twave and Rocks sucks and you can't beat every stall on one moveset but I mean it works?

Also you need HDB for hazards

So you need a specific item, 4 moves that do well into the enemy team, and you can't run utility, for a CHANCE to own a stall team. Idk.

honestly stall is kinda bad right now on account of all the stupid breakers we keep letting into the tier (waterpon, kyurem, etc.) and a mon that can't break through a stall core but is also completely unusable on stall on account of its complete lack of proper recovery (that also does pretty solid into most other archetypes) is really not going to make stall better or worse. Arch is not a stallbreaker. It *WAS* a stallbreaker when it had a 130bp move that gave it a +1 SpA that also was supereffective against half of stall, but (assuming the hypothetical route of electro shot is banned, arch gets retested) now that that is out of the question i don't think stall is the best option.

If this was a thing i might have looked into restochesto for a pseudo second zama? but alas banning electro shot is too complex a ban. shame, i feel this guy would actually be really fun to build with.

 

[EpicGuy321]

if lugia never got multiscale in gen 5 though it probably would have been ou by like gen 6 or 7 (maybe gen 5 as well but I doubt it)

ah yes, 110/130/154 bulk pressure subtectrooster with 110 speed… surely balanced…

Arch is good outside of rain (don't believe me? Just check monotype. I know it's not that great of a demonstration but honestly I dont care. Play monotype)

isn’t a big factor in Arch’s monotype viability the fact that it stops Dragon from hard losing to Fairy and Ice?

 

[Bakugames]

I knoooow im being annoying by only coming in to minimod but I genuinely don't get why you guys decided that the next topic point after arch (which isnt gonna be unbanned) is entertaining someone about banning stored power and unbanning magearna. look me in the eye: not every stupid comment here needs a response. if someone is suggesting something stupid, wait like an hour or two to see if someone else doesn't reply with something to shut them down and move from the discussion.

This thread would be better as one that becomes dormant until people find something good to discuss than one where people need to bring up random topics that have been shot down over and over again just because its inactive, because all these useless discussions completely inflate the page count and make following and reading back a hellhole.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

No, no, I was adding on to someone's comparison between Melmetal and Gliscor. I suggested Melmetal is more similar to SV Kyurem than it is to SV Gliscor.

SS Melmetal is by no means comparable to SV Kyurem, if anything is comparable its baxcalibur + all the set variety kyurem has

ah yes, 110/130/154 bulk pressure subtectrooster with 110 speed… surely balanced…

In a tera meta that shit would never fly lmao, the fact people want to test it in gen 5 makes me laugh because that mon would absolutely dunk on bw ou as lugia's shortcomings were not really that noticable back then

If tera didn't exist I would say maybe but as of right now, no absolutely not since that removes any chance it might have of being reasonable

 

[Bold School]

Draco is necessary on this set for any MU other than stall, right?

EQ or else walled by clod
Tbolt or else walled by pex/corv
Body Press or else walled by blissey or tdark clod
Flash Cannon or else walled by clefable

Can't run Rocks, Twave, or IronPress...

I mean I guess mixed Arch can break stall given the right moveset for the matchup? Giving up all your utility like Twave and Rocks sucks and you can't beat every stall on one moveset but I mean it works?

Also you need HDB for hazards

So you need a specific item, 4 moves that do well into the enemy team, and you can't run utility, for a CHANCE to own a stall team. Idk.

If you want an actual wallbreaker, I was thinking 4 attacks and either LO or PH Meteor Beam. You would want either an item to boost your power or something defensive like lefties or AV to keep yourself around longer.

In general, I don't believe in HDB spam. I especially don't believe in it for a mon that already resists rocks and is immune to T-spikes. That just seems bad to me. Run proper hazard control to mitigate spikes. In general, team support can make up for a lot of shortcomings.

Electric/Steel actually hits a lot at least neutrally besides Electric types, which are mostly hit by EQ. Type combinations that would be resist both like Dragon/Fire Gouging Fire, Fire/Grass Hearthflame, and Grass/Steel Ferrothorn mostly aren't a concern in the current gen 9 OU metagame. This isn't perfect, but it's a pretty decent starting point.

 

[veti]

1750 elo being required for reqs is pretty pointless now that I see it in practice, is there a possibility of 1750 elo requirements being removed next suspect and reverting to 84 in 30 / 80 in 50? Realistically nearly everyone who can get 80% gxe is capable of hitting 1750 elo and suspect laddering isn't a large enough sample size for learning the meta even with going to 1750 esp when a lot of people spam one team esp ho/stall, getting 1750 elo feels like more of a pointless chore.

If reqs must stay more difficult than a GXE requirement raise would be much better imo, smth like 85/30 -> 81/50 would actually make reqs harder.

 

[Avira]

SS Melmetal is by no means comparable to SV Kyurem, if anything is comparable its baxcalibur + all the set variety kyurem has


In a tera meta that shit would never fly lmao, the fact people want to test it in gen 5 makes me laugh because that mon would absolutely dunk on bw ou as lugia's shortcomings were not really that noticable back then

If tera didn't exist I would say maybe but as of right now, no absolutely not since that removes any chance it might have of being reasonable

Nope, not even close. Baxcalibur was insanely broken and was in talks of being suspected even before it gained Scale Shot and Ninetales-Alola returned. It pretty much had 0 defensive checks aside from Bronzong (LO Tera Dragon Glaive Rush 2HKOes Dondozo) and pretty much only had revenge killers, some of which needed to pop a defensive Tera or use an offensive Tera, as effective counterplay.

Baxcalibur had the highest score ever on an OU-tiering (including SS OU as well) survey for a reason. Trying to compare Baxcalibur to Kyurem is either disingenuous or demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what Baxcalibur could actually do as Kyurem's effect on SS or SV OU pales in comparison to Baxcalibur's supremacy. Baxcalibur was much more predictable than Kyurem was but also way more broken with its pure wallbreaking power.

I do agree though that Lugia would've been insanely broken in BW OU. People who thought it'd be okay are high on some insane shit. In general, I agree that Lugia with Tera in SV OU is probably too crazy to deal with even if it thuds into fatter teams as it'd be extremely centralizing and wall so many offensive threats with a good defensive Tera without its dogshit base typing of Psychic/Flying.

Max Speed Lugia calcs:

+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 149-176 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Lugia can easily Tera out of this)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 112-133 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 192-226 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 123-145 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 210-247 (50.4 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 79-94 (18.9 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 231-280 (55.5 - 67.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 258-304 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It'd be hugely centralizing in OU due to its absurd bulk. Although Lugia sucks in Ubers and Ubers UU, it'd be a huge prick to deal with in OU due to the much lower power level. Every team would have to be filled to the brim with wallbreakers, use status, or run sand to not have Lugia be an incredible pain to face. There is no merit to dropping anything that has been previously banned to Ubers this gen back to OU.

And to be on topic, TPP makes a good point that there is very little actual activity in the qualified thread despite there being an outcry from certain badged users that it needed to exist. It seems what it did was cut down people clowning on really bad takes but didn't actively increase activity among badged users in general.

 

[Finchinator]

1750 elo being required for reqs is pretty pointless now that I see it in practice, is there a possibility of 1750 elo requirements being removed next suspect and reverting to 84 in 30 / 80 in 50? Realistically nearly everyone who can get 80% gxe is capable of hitting 1750 elo and suspect laddering isn't a large enough sample size for learning the meta even with going to 1750 esp when a lot of people spam one team esp ho/stall, getting 1750 elo feels like more of a pointless chore.

If reqs must stay more difficult than a GXE requirement raise would be much better imo, smth like 85/30 -> 81/50 would actually make reqs harder.

The old 30-50 game scale made it so that a lot of people hardly played the Pokemon or real team compsotions. A TON of people requested ELO -- read the PR thread among other things. It was more a matter of keeping a GXE component alongside it -- going back feels like a complete non-starter and saying "everyone who does X (getting old reqs) can do Y (hitting 1750)" ignores the point of reqs: qualifying people to vote on a Pokemon -- if they hardly play the tier at a high level or face the suspect in a serious context, then reqs is not doing its job.

Finally -- because apparently it needs to be re-stated in every thread: this is not the place -- this is metagame discussion, not "give my opinion on reqs" discussion, especially when you are badged and should have PR access for when the time comes.

 

[UltraSword]

I do agree though that Lugia would've been insanely broken in BW OU. People who thought it'd be okay are high on some insane shit.

Tbf I said maybe and I meant without multiscale lol. Same for gen 9

 

[Eeveeto]

Tbf I said maybe and I meant without multiscale lol. Same for gen 9

Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.

 

[UltraSword]

Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.

Well I was saying like if lugia didn't get multiscale in gen 5 not that multiscale should be banned lol. I would never ban it anyway because it would make my favorite pokemon dragonite unviable

 

[Sulfurian]

Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.

Most likely lugia would run offensive evs because with multiscale you can afford the loss of some bulk to set up calm mind anyways.

 

[Eeveeto]

Most likely lugia would run offensive evs because with multiscale you can afford the loss of some bulk to set up calm mind anyways.

It definetely would, though with 90 Special Attack it would still need several boosts to start doing actual damage, opponent can use those turns to Status, Knock, Encore or boost itself too. It definetely has the bulk to get the Boosts when the opponent cant immediately stop it, though.