Good god can we stop talking about dropping Ubers for one fucking week or is that impossible for everyone here
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I think you know the answer to that, lol
My reasoning would be contradictory pre-SV OU, but with the Terastal mechanic making it so that every mon has many more sets with different counterplay, it is true since Solgaleo would have a number of viable sets, all of which need to be accounted for, including the potential Tera Types.
The idea of a pokemon with the stat spread, typing, move pool, and ability combined of solgaleo would remotely not be broken in ou boggles the mind. The only remotely sane reason it would enter ones mind is because of how bad it is in ubers, the irony of it being it's fusion that mostly rededicates it is not lost lol.
For something like lugia terra immediately makes it straight up busted by giving it a type to hide behind, and a potentially better stab while it's massive defences, access to recovery and calm mind just set up it's middle wing finger at the out metagame XD.
girantina-a just is as insane idea as the others as the idea of a rest talk set with those beefy defences and passible offences again just rolls over most of out lol
Crowned just proved having a better typing and stats from the get go made it the better of the two zamaenta's in the metagames they find themselves
For something like lugia terra immediately makes it straight up busted by giving it a type to hide behind, and a potentially better stab while it's massive defences, access to recovery and calm mind just set up it's middle wing finger at the out metagame XD.
girantina-a just is as insane idea as the others as the idea of a rest talk set with those beefy defences and passible offences again just rolls over most of out lol
Crowned just proved having a better typing and stats from the get go made it the better of the two zamaenta's in the metagames they find themselves
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It also doesn’t help that Lugia can also run Curse sets for becoming a pain in the ass fo take down physically and Giratina-A can run bulky versions of Pult’s utility sets except with something like Calm Mind or Rest replacing U-Turn. Maybe even Earth Power if it wants to have some coverage for Steels and Fire-types. There’s really no reason to drop any of the current Ubers to OU.
I'm a little skeptical that CM + Recover Lugia will be acceptable in OU but I am also skeptical that Curse would be viable. It just seems inferior and very matchup fishy. It has a decent physical movepool and attack stat so it's possible but even still I think it would be worse than simply using Bulk Up Tusk.
In theory Giratina doesn't necessarily need Draco, right? It's a nuke but forces a Mon that wants to sit on the field to leave the field unless your opponent lets you keep CMing, and Shadow Ball + Aura Sphere is perfect coverage already.
Also I'd say the meta is not in a terrible state BECAUSE the two suspects failed, not in spite of
God.
I will be deleting any posts regarding further discussion of dropping ubers down to OU. Yes, that means lugia, solgaleo, giratina??? ffs
I already made a post on palafin here, please stop comparing this mon to waterpon. As if we need two of those.
Further topics not up for debate: a stored power ban to free magearna? lmao
We have enough ubers in this tier as is
Friendly reminder that an unserious one-off "free x uber" tour would prove absolutely nothing about how healthy that mon would be in the tier. It has also proven nothing in the past. For example, free darkrai slots in last year's OUPL fooled many into thinking it would be totally fine. Then it started using hypnosis like I said it would, months before it was even legal, and we had to ban sleep as a result.
Good topics to discuss: DD kyurem has been rising in popularity, and sets like tb fire/elec have been tearing teams up. I've seen tera elec kyurem dd twice in front of araquanid and 6-0, on 3 separate occasions, involving the same 2 players
Enamorus has fallen off quite a bit in usage. Specs stellar blast is an excellent set on webs, but I think there's a lot more room for exploration than just that and scarf. Floating above webs and soft checking id zama+tusk are also good qualities, but my favorite is probably being able to switch in and threaten standard eq/ruination ting-lu multiple times, limiting the amount of health your team loses trying to take down the ubermoose.
Lets post smarter kiddos
I will be deleting any posts regarding further discussion of dropping ubers down to OU. Yes, that means lugia, solgaleo, giratina??? ffs
I already made a post on palafin here, please stop comparing this mon to waterpon. As if we need two of those.
Further topics not up for debate: a stored power ban to free magearna? lmao
We have enough ubers in this tier as is
Friendly reminder that an unserious one-off "free x uber" tour would prove absolutely nothing about how healthy that mon would be in the tier. It has also proven nothing in the past. For example, free darkrai slots in last year's OUPL fooled many into thinking it would be totally fine. Then it started using hypnosis like I said it would, months before it was even legal, and we had to ban sleep as a result.
Good topics to discuss: DD kyurem has been rising in popularity, and sets like tb fire/elec have been tearing teams up. I've seen tera elec kyurem dd twice in front of araquanid and 6-0, on 3 separate occasions, involving the same 2 players
Enamorus has fallen off quite a bit in usage. Specs stellar blast is an excellent set on webs, but I think there's a lot more room for exploration than just that and scarf. Floating above webs and soft checking id zama+tusk are also good qualities, but my favorite is probably being able to switch in and threaten standard eq/ruination ting-lu multiple times, limiting the amount of health your team loses trying to take down the ubermoose.
Lets post smarter kiddos
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Real question is how long will it be before we are ran over by Okidogi’s meteoric rise from RU and have to ban it to Ubers
I was thumbing through Finch's tournament sets/teams on his SCL post and this is the one struck out to me. I believe Gren (the mod) had a similar idea of turning Darkrai into a beefier disrupting 'mon rather than the standard fast attacker it usual is. Might help bring it back into the limelight by showing its deeper pool of options available to it (or at least jumpscare someone when Darkrai lives a hit and then cripples the foe with Wisp)
First of all, thank you.Good topics to discuss: DD kyurem has been rising in popularity, and sets like tb fire/elec have been tearing teams up. I've seen tera elec kyurem dd twice in front of araquanid and 6-0, on 3 separate occasions, involving the same 2 players
Second, I just want to make the point that the DD (or QD in the case of Volc) sets are likely where a potential problem is going to lie with future mons. This is because of the way certain speed boosting setup sweepers can abuse Tera to get to +2 stats makes them inherently more threatening. A lot of these sweepers could come in, essentially force a switch to get up a free DD, and then brute force a second 1 with Tera. Not to mention double STAB or extra STAB.
Not every DD mon. It's just an increased chance because of how Tera mechanics work. If Kyurem does get another suspect, it would likely be because of the DD sets and not Sub/Tect.
I wanted to talk about Araquanid, which is a mon that has been rising up in viability lately, and seems to outclass ribombee now (multiple people have said that its better then bee, including Finchinator).
Araquanid @ Custap Berry
Ability: Water Bubble
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Sticky Web
- Surf
- Endure
- Pounce
This is the set that I've been running, though endeavour and mirror coat are options as well. Surf is able to hit so many things in the tier for big damage due to water bubble being a busted ability, and hits pokemon such as Lando and Tusk a lot harder. Endure means it can always get off the custap berry so even something like bolt (pray to god it isn't taunt bolt) can't stop you. Pounce means that waterpon can't switch in easily and can stop mons that try to setup before Araquanid lays webs and try to swep the team from there, as the lowered speed is killer. It's access to custap berry is unique, as it can usually survive one hit from most attackers (with only a few extremely powerful mons threatening an OHKO) and thus, doesn't need focus sash and can get off another powerful attack.
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 160-190 (47 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 344-408 (101.1 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (only common attack that can OHKO it)
240 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 240-284 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
88 SpA Never-Melt Ice Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 192-228 (56.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 296-350 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (LMAOOO, Kyurem can't even OHKO it reliably)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 336-396 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (roaring moon does have to worry about pounce, which does a sizeable chunk to it)
Araquanid @ Custap Berry
Ability: Water Bubble
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Sticky Web
- Surf
- Endure
- Pounce
This is the set that I've been running, though endeavour and mirror coat are options as well. Surf is able to hit so many things in the tier for big damage due to water bubble being a busted ability, and hits pokemon such as Lando and Tusk a lot harder. Endure means it can always get off the custap berry so even something like bolt (pray to god it isn't taunt bolt) can't stop you. Pounce means that waterpon can't switch in easily and can stop mons that try to setup before Araquanid lays webs and try to swep the team from there, as the lowered speed is killer. It's access to custap berry is unique, as it can usually survive one hit from most attackers (with only a few extremely powerful mons threatening an OHKO) and thus, doesn't need focus sash and can get off another powerful attack.
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 160-190 (47 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 344-408 (101.1 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (only common attack that can OHKO it)
240 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 240-284 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
88 SpA Never-Melt Ice Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 192-228 (56.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 296-350 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (LMAOOO, Kyurem can't even OHKO it reliably)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Araquanid: 336-396 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (roaring moon does have to worry about pounce, which does a sizeable chunk to it)
Physical is a lot better than Special, mostly because of Leech Life. You're facing down Deoxys-Speed, Samurott-Hisui, and Ogerpon often, which makes having the added longevity really nice when you're dealing with them on top of Great Tusk (which is extremely often), and also because Leech Life hits harder in general considering Araquanid's Attack stat is a good margin higher than its Special Attack stat. The added Physical strength also matters when hitting frailer resistances like Dragapult which get nastily chunked by Liquidation; in fact this specific interaction is why Custap + Endure is leagues better than any other option imo, since chip damage into Webs-resilient Pokemon like Dragapult can make a big difference for the structure in the long run. The main utility of Special sets comes in dodging Rocky Helmet damage and Intimidate which is something that isn't really a major deal when your main job is to get Sticky Web up and buffer hazard removal options.
I +1 the camp of people saying Araquanid is better than Ribombee as a Sticky Web setter. Being able to potentially get them up several times in the game while also uniquely resisting the combination of Headlong Rush + Ice Spinner is a huge deal considering how predictable Air Balloon Gholdengo is on Webs. It's definitely given a breath of fresh air for the composition on top of all of the crazy cool options the structure has, such as Meteor Beam Glimmora and Specs Enamorus. Having this leverage really rewards creativity, I think Araquanid is a reason why that's become more feasible to have lately. For instance I’ve been using Tera Water SD Zarude with it, and it’s super gnarly due to its status resilience and the general strength/bulk it possesses.
Respectfully, I have to disagree. I think hitting Tusk for much larger damage is really, really big, as it means that it can't get off a suicide spin if it wants to.
216+ SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 564-666 (152 - 179.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216+ SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Great Tusk: 141-166 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It also does better into Corviknight, who is a common pokemon that will try to get off webs (yes, gholdengo can stop it, but corv will just u-turn out and get in a scary sweeper, and if you don't have ghold, then it will just defog for free).
216+ SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 195-229 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
216+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 136-162 (34 - 40.6%) -- 49.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If its specially defensive corviknight, then liquidation does more to it. However, that means pokemon such as Bulk Up Great Tusk do a lot better into Corviknight.
Finally, it also means glimmora cannot get up Toxic Spikes, which while Web Teams do commonly have Glimmora or Iron Moth, is something that can be annoying.
I can still see the merits of physical though, so I don't think its a simple "one set is better then the other" and is a lot more nuanced.
I'll second this, Araquanid allows for a lot more creative in the builder. I've been using Critdra (somebody dared me to okay) with Clear Smog which can be pretty great against defensive teams and Ceruledge, who can drop shadow sneak and run CC, which hits Hamurott, Garganacl, Raging Bolt (booster means you can't use poltergeist), Roaring Moon and Ting Lu a lot harder. It also can act as an out of webs wincon with sash+weak armour.
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Hey, its Scarlet and Violet's second birthday! While I don't have a thread quite like last year's, I did want to revisit a much smaller post I made about a year ago about the Titans of OU so far.
For those who don't know, at the end of Generation 8 a series of articles were released discussing each SS metagames' "Titans" or the top 10 most important or iconic Pokemon over the history of those tiers. I really like this concept so last year I sorted the Pokemon of SV OU into three tiers based on how strong I considered their case was to be considered a Titan of the metagame at this point in time. So I'm going to do that again with an extra DLC and another year of metagame development under SV OU's belt.
So to start in tier 1 so to speak, I have the Pokemon that I would consider 99.9% likely to be included. This includes the same 5 that I had in this tier last year and with one new addition in Zamazenta.
Great Tusk
Kingambit
Gholdengo
Iron Valiant
Dragapult
Zamazenta
Each of these Pokemon have been right around or at the very top of the metagame for a significant proportion of SV OU's lifespan (if not all of it). All six of these mons have excelled in every variation of SV OU we've had so far and at the moment seem likely to remain strong picks for the rest of this metagame's time as the current gen.
For the next tier I have pretty much every other Pokemon I think has would deserve serious consideration to fill out the rest of the top 10, though these cases are definitely not all equal I do think they are a clear step up from the tier below. Each of these Pokemon have been very powerful and influential across the different DLC and Home metagames, but for various reasons I don't feel comfortable putting them in the 99% bracket though some are probably in the 90% bracket :P.
Cinderace
Darkrai
Dragonite
Garganacl
Glimmora
Gliscor
Iron Moth
Kyurem
Landorus-Therian
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Samurott-Hisui
Slowking-Galar
Ting-Lu
This final tier of Pokemon is made up of good Pokemon who have almost zero chance of being included. Though they have been good picks in their own right at some point, they haven't held the highest level of strength or had the consistency (or legality) to be included above.
Alomomola
Amoonguss
Baxcalibur
Blissey
Clefable
Clodsire
Corviknight
Deoxys-Speed
Dondozo
Enamorus
Gouging Fire
Hatterene
Heatran
Iron Crown
Iron Treads
Meowscarada
Moltres
Pelipper
Primarina
Rillaboom
Skarmory
Skeledirge
Sneasler
Torkoal
Ursaluna
Volcarona
Walking Wake
Weavile
Zapdos
- - -
So those would be my groupings for the best Pokemon in OU over the past two years, but what do you think? What would you choose for the Top 10 Titans of OU so far?
Or if you want to just give your thoughts on the current snapshot of the metagame you can post here in the Personal Viability Rankings thread or if you want to read a bit about how the first year of SV OU developed you can read my thread here.
For those who don't know, at the end of Generation 8 a series of articles were released discussing each SS metagames' "Titans" or the top 10 most important or iconic Pokemon over the history of those tiers. I really like this concept so last year I sorted the Pokemon of SV OU into three tiers based on how strong I considered their case was to be considered a Titan of the metagame at this point in time. So I'm going to do that again with an extra DLC and another year of metagame development under SV OU's belt.
- - -
So to start in tier 1 so to speak, I have the Pokemon that I would consider 99.9% likely to be included. This includes the same 5 that I had in this tier last year and with one new addition in Zamazenta.
For the next tier I have pretty much every other Pokemon I think has would deserve serious consideration to fill out the rest of the top 10, though these cases are definitely not all equal I do think they are a clear step up from the tier below. Each of these Pokemon have been very powerful and influential across the different DLC and Home metagames, but for various reasons I don't feel comfortable putting them in the 99% bracket though some are probably in the 90% bracket :P.
This final tier of Pokemon is made up of good Pokemon who have almost zero chance of being included. Though they have been good picks in their own right at some point, they haven't held the highest level of strength or had the consistency (or legality) to be included above.
- - -
So those would be my groupings for the best Pokemon in OU over the past two years, but what do you think? What would you choose for the Top 10 Titans of OU so far?
Or if you want to just give your thoughts on the current snapshot of the metagame you can post here in the Personal Viability Rankings thread or if you want to read a bit about how the first year of SV OU developed you can read my thread here.
This is the OU tier; by definition, any mon here isn't an uber, not anymore and not currently, and I feel disgusted that someone could hold such a misinformed opinion of what the mons in a tier are, and yet also be a moderator of a forum about said tiers. Yes, there is always the path that a mon will get banned to ubers in the future, but at no point is a mon an uber if it is in OU. Not Kyurem, Gliscor, Kingambit, Great Tusk, Gholdengo, not any of them are uber. Not yet, and depending on community surveys, polling, and suspect votes, potentially not ever, though I do agree that one should never say never. Some mons are more equal than others, like the ones I mentioned prior, and I do agree that they can be powerful, sometimes exceptionally so. However, absolutely none of them, without exception, are uber.
yeah bro...I know. It's just a figure of speech you took literally.
Definitely feel surf>liquidation on araquanid. not proc'ing toxic debris, ohkos on lando-t+great tusk, not triggering helmets which can kill you after you endure+custap or hold sash are all very significant benefits. That's not to say that utility bug moves can't be run simultaneously though. You can go surf+uninvested pounce/lunge/whatever with quiet nature and still spam speed or attack drops vs a roaring moon or kyurem that tries to dd on you, and this still hinders waterpon a fair amount.
Tera has just been banned in National Dex.
While there are some notable differences with OU, I think it would be very interesting to see how the metagame evolves without this mechanic.
While there are some notable differences with OU, I think it would be very interesting to see how the metagame evolves without this mechanic.
Played for the first time in awhile today. Did some youtuber make a video or something? Why are the 1600/1700's filled with Greninja's and Rocky Helmet Ghold's? I encountered 5 and 6 of each respectively. I don't remember the ladder having such influx of these.
Rocky Helmet gholdengo has been a real set people use for months now even during gouging meta as a great anti-offense set beating all zama sets etc, and Greninja while uncommon, is probably a top 3 pokemon againts pure offense with battle bond or scarf, so in the 1500-1600 offense has been getting used more for one reason or another, and these players you face have caught a lucky break againts them using those anti-offense mons.
I really like Araquanid both as a web enabler and a Pokemon in general. While Ribombee has some flexibility in its moves (Psychic Noise, Skill Swap, Pounce…) I think that Araquanid is a lot more customizable and for that reason I prefer it. Physical or Special, Mirror Coat, Endeavor… It has good utility and can easily webs + trade.
I do always prefer special with Mirror Coat tbh since it gives you an awesome matchup vs Special Kyurem, Specs Pult and with Surf you’re amazing vs Tusk or Corv.
However I can see how physical has its merit. You can tank hits from Waterpon, Meowscarada, Weavile, Regular Ogerpon, DeoS or Darkrai and heal back with Leech Life which is huge imo. Also RMoon can’t setup safely in your face
Both versions being able to deal with Iron Moth is awesome too. If Araq still had Magic Coat, I think it would be better than Ribombee. From my point of view they’re equal and while webs is not my favourite style to play, I appreciate its pressence in the tier. Also, Araq can lowkey be a good Pokemon in the midgame, perhaps even exploring boots sets since it can deal with hazard stack team mons like Cinderace, Ting Lu or Glowking with physical sets has some potential
I do always prefer special with Mirror Coat tbh since it gives you an awesome matchup vs Special Kyurem, Specs Pult and with Surf you’re amazing vs Tusk or Corv.
However I can see how physical has its merit. You can tank hits from Waterpon, Meowscarada, Weavile, Regular Ogerpon, DeoS or Darkrai and heal back with Leech Life which is huge imo. Also RMoon can’t setup safely in your face
Both versions being able to deal with Iron Moth is awesome too. If Araq still had Magic Coat, I think it would be better than Ribombee. From my point of view they’re equal and while webs is not my favourite style to play, I appreciate its pressence in the tier. Also, Araq can lowkey be a good Pokemon in the midgame, perhaps even exploring boots sets since it can deal with hazard stack team mons like Cinderace, Ting Lu or Glowking with physical sets has some potential
Thank you for the reply! I play a lot more SPA mons so I must have managed to miss Ghold's during my time playing. Greninja is the real outlier to me when it comes to this, as I barely saw the Mon very much outside of a few rain teams. so seeing it used more readily has been quite strange to me.
I totally agree with you. Tinkaton is now on the meta, iron crown too and roar moltres walls it perfectly, we didn't have them in the meta before. Ting-Lu counters it too. We have add more strong priority users now. Encore and phazers ruins bulky spathra sets so easily. I think we should give spathra a chance in the new meta, i just can't see why spath is more borderline than kyurem or gliscor to handle, honestly.
I'd say Slowking-Galar surely has to be a top ten mon? The guy has been one of the most common supporting pieces throughout all of gen 9. I don't know if it fits the definition of most influential exactly but I personally think he should be up there.
Ogerpon-Wellspring should definitely be up there, I think the magnitude of pressure that it applies to teams has been approximately equivalent to all the ones in the top 6.
Well that is...interesting. I am not sure whether the metagame will be affected positively by this but it will be interesting for sure.
Welp tera got banned in natdex ou, separate meta but interesting to see how that plays out
If it goes well it could change this tier’s trajectory but as it stands it does not matter in the current moment
However if it goes well (Which it is looking like, it might bring back discussion here and in other tiers on potential action)
If it goes well it could change this tier’s trajectory but as it stands it does not matter in the current moment
However if it goes well (Which it is looking like, it might bring back discussion here and in other tiers on potential action)