Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Before we form concrete stuff lets see how things shape around it and if stuff like ogerpon and rilla are sufficient checks to bulk up sets since those are the most potentially problematic
 
RainebowValiant said:
my summarized thoughts

palafin is broken because it's an unwallable breaker that does things into every style, as well as having stupid ass BU sets

forcing every bulky team to run dondozo or mola is insanely limiting

palafin is insanely limiting

we don't need MORE insanely limiting breakers

at least in my opinion
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do NOT say "well CB is bad blah blah blah" yea CB isnt that insane

but having the ability to straight up 2KO dozo in rain makes it broken alone even if it has better shit

more building limitations is bad rn, we already have scor, pon, kyu
 
The best move Choice Band Palafin has isn't Wave Crash, it's Jet Punch.

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kingambit has 100/120 defenses, so this is a really strong revenge priority move. Just about anything else that isn't a resist or an immunity gets chunked hard, while they are enough resists that it's not entirely riskless and does need either prediction or preparation.

This is the reason to run Choice Band, though. All of the downsides are real, but this move into HO is a very helpful tool for assorted balances.
 
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I cooked up a Zamazenta set specifically to counter Palafin (speedcreeps it by 1, lives a 252 Atk Banded Wave Crash + another after Iron Defense), and it works pretty well against every set you might see.
(It loses to 252 Def 252 Atk Adamant Tera Fairy Tera Blast though.)

But low ladder players haven't gotten the memo that Palafin is unbanned (I guess since I missed the first day of the suspect), so I've only gotten to use it once. And of course the set loses performance vs everything else. Maybe it's useful to beat DD Kyu, but normal Zama wins that anyways.

Palafin doesn't seem too busted. Even a +2 CC doesn't always kill certain guys, like Tusk and Garganacl, so sometimes you're forced into killing yourself with wave crash even after setting up. And if you have the wrong tera type, a lot of guys beat you 1v1 (especially Oger-W).
 
Alternator said:
The best move Choice Band Palafin has isn't Wave Crash, it's Jet Punch.

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kingambit has 100/120 defenses, so this is a really strong revenge priority move. Just about anything else that isn't a resist or an immunity gets chunked hard, while they are enough resists that it's not entirely riskless and does need either prediction or preparation.

This is the reason to run Choice Band, though. All of the downsides are real, but this move into HO is a very helpful tool for assorted balances.
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I think what annoying about band Palafin is that it's taking too much chip and being locked into most of its moves just isn't great especially with Tera since most defensive Teras are punishing it.

Boots + Hazard pressure feels more reliable as an anti offense mon + can pick and choose when it can revenge or pivot out. Tera Water Flip turns from 160 attack are great for chip esp when supplanted by a strong defensive core. Not taking hazard chip (which is really annoying for Finn) is also a big bonus. If this mon had Knock off, mon would be absolutely perfect since it can risklessly get rid of helmets / boots, but alas, it needs support for that.

What i like about this mon as a pivot is that it's priority is actually strong & it has good natural speed, giving it fast flips. Actually strong priority makes it feel way more reliable into rai / moth than something like Samu, which doesn't feel quite as potent due to its lower stats in... everything.
 
pixelpenguin said:
banded palafin is literally the Walking Wake Effect or alternatively the Barraskewda theorem. absolutely insane wall breaking power but you lock into water move in front of Wellspring and you feel like absolute shit. 50/50 every turn whether you click water move or predict Ogerpon. it's very much a noobtrap imo, non-choice sets are so much better.
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Almost like wake and pon don’t have priority
 
JackRG said:
Almost like wake and pon don’t have priority
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Speaking of which wake isn't going to be used anyway (I am shocked that it is still ou even more so than meowscarada) but it doesn't sound too bad against non tera dragon/fairy palafin. It obviously resists jet punch and it probably has good enough bulk to survive its coverage moves.
 
I mean yeah. thats what a higher stat does. makes you hit harder. not sure why we're having a revelation that a 160 attack with two boosts on top of it is better than 135 spatk with one/two boosts on top of it
 
Bakugames said:
I mean yeah. thats what a higher stat does. makes you hit harder. not sure why we're having a revelation that a 160 attack with two boosts on top of it is better than 135 spatk with one/two boosts on top of it
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actually, not quite. palafin has 160 attack + rain boost + tera boost + band boost. chi-yu has 135 spa + sun boost + tera boost + specs boost + beads of ruin boost. that one extra boost that chi-yu gets makes a pretty significant difference:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Rain: 239-282 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Sun: 258-304 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

palafin hits almost as hard as specs chi-yu (or banded gouging fire) in sun, and that's a comparison that should definitely be discussed because it's terrifying, but it falls just a little short of those guys
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
actually, not quite. palafin has 160 attack + rain boost + tera boost + band boost. chi-yu has 135 spa + sun boost + tera boost + specs boost + beads of ruin boost. that one extra boost that chi-yu gets makes a pretty significant difference:
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To clarify: this was about specs eterrain miraidon
 
Bakugames said:
To clarify: this was about specs eterrain miraidon
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ah. well then yeah, palafin does hit harder, but we gotta put a really big asterisk on that statement because miraidon has other advantages that make comparing the two not very useful—namely, it sets its own terrain and has base 135 speed. something like chi-yu or gouging fire, which have similar speed tiers to palafin (chi-yu's is exactly the same actually) and require support to set up weather, is a more fair comparison. just comparing big calc numbers without context can be counterproductive—alolan golem can hit harder than any of these clowns by a country mile and it's garbage anyway

needless to say, it's very troubling that comparing palafin with chi-yu and gouging fire is even a fair comparison to make in the first place, but we do have to factor in that we have an extremely splashable water immunity in the tier, while we didn't have an extremely splashable fire immunity to deal with the other guys. that makes banded palafin's nuke moves a lot more of a risky click on average, which is why i don't consider it as important a factor in palafin's likely brokenness as those other two choice sets are
EpicGuy321 said:
Eterrain + Hadron Engine + Specs + Tera. still 4 boosts
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true, but the eterrain boost is much smaller than a weather boost (1.3x vs 1.5x) and that's why specs miraidon doesn't nuke things quite as hard as the big scary calcs that involve weather. also because those calcs for miraidon are usually using a 100-power electro drift while chi-yu's and gouging fire's and palafin's calcs use 120- or 130-power moves (sometimes 110 if you go for fire blast on chi-yu), and that makes a deceptively big difference in damage output
 
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DaddyBuzzwole said:
needless to say, it's very troubling that comparing palafin with chi-yu and gouging fire is even a fair comparison to make in the first place
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tbh this suspect is less about "does palafin hit hard" because that is a solved case: it does, it always will etc. but more about if it can stand the new metagame and how much it may affects its longevity, use case etc. not sure it changed thaaaat much, BU3A seems to have kept a lot of its vantages, but who knows how the meta will adapt
 
TheColorRed said:
chat band palafin in rain hits harder than specs chi yu in sun
and that's not even a good set somehow
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its crazy how palafin actually kinda fell off a bit since launch, to the point we are testing it and that it might stay

Encore waterpon actually sounds like a pretty good answer to its most snowbally set in bulk up, and at least we know that banded while super nuclear isn't even hard to answer shockingly.

Mixed sets seem okay but physical bulk up overall seems best, reminds me of nasty plot darkrai but actually more consistent at snowballing and doesn't just die half the time like darkrai does. (Trick or status spreader darkrai feels the most consistent.)


Maybe Blunder and Joey were onto something with Palafin



Also on a different I hope my name and title get reverted soon since the mystery box will wear off
 
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