If only it was a real tier with any rep in tours :[
I like the high level of competition that official tiers bring, very tough to recreate outside of cg ou
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I like the high level of competition that official tiers bring, very tough to recreate outside of cg ou
I never said that, looks like the point went right over your head. My point is all playstyles should be atleast decent
Srn, don't give up on the meta changing for the better. Kyurem would've been banned last time if not for a joke vote even in spite of the cheating. Many people also thought after the Archaludon ban that there would be no further bans, and we got two more of those instead in Volcarona and Gouging Fire. That defeatist attitude won't get us anywhere.
my favorite Rillaboom set, Grassy Glide/Wood Hammer/Knock Off/High Horsepower/Low Kick/ U-Turn
Gestures to tournament games.
Some variation of balance is the top style in most tiers, so when that isn't true it seems like balance is bad, but that isn't the case. It's fine. People can, have, and do climb the ladder with all team styles, and all styles show up in tournaments.
yeah, 4mss is such an issue for that thing. especially since sd is nigh impossible to fit compared to oger
You cannot tell me with a straight face balance is remotely as viable as it was in past generations
I think the main issue isnt that balance is bad, tourney results show thats far from the case, but rather that trying to make balance feels so incredibly difficult because you have to account for so many threats. You CAN make good balance teams, but usually there will be some powerful pokemon that destroys it. Take for example the CTC Keldeo+Sinistcha team. That is absolutely ruined by pivot waterpon+spikes, as it knocks both of its answers and u-turns on them every time, allowing for hazard chip to accrue.
The goal should probably be to reduce the amount of threats in the tier to make it so creating defensive teams doesn't feel nearly as annoying. This is primarily why I'm heavily ban on waterpon, as it is one of the most constrictive forces for defensive teams (I might even go as far to say its more constraining for said teams then gambit, but that's probably a hot take)
No team can truly, or frankly should be, able to handle every combination of threats in the metagame - good teams like CTC’s Sinis + Keldeo balance necessarily lose to something good, otherwise they would dominate the meta. Them losing to something that is prominent in the metagame is not an indicator of how good a team is, considering the reality is that not every top threat can be stopped by one team.
What I more meant was, if its losing to something incredibly common (pivot waterpon, which is considered its best set) with just a little bit of support (spikes, which you can sometimes struggle to not fit on teams since so many good mons get them), then that's concerning for making teams if they already struggle to cover other threats. No team should be able to cover everything, I agree, but they should probably have some leeway in playing around the matchup. Rn, it doesn't feel like that, it feels like there are a lot of autolose matchups.
Did you plan to get outplayed every turn?
It's also highly unlikely Rillaboom fits all 3 of those in the same set. This is what scouting is for. Furthermore, CB gets locked in while other sets lack that same sort of power. Rillaboom's speed tier is also slow, so as long as you safely get in faster mons that resist GG you are probably good.
I'm mostly with you on Tera, but the biggest problem with the hazard/boots issue is Ceaseless Edge. Mon's like Ghold are a red herring. Removing Ceaseless Edge/Hamurott would streamline hazard counterplay with fast Taunt or Hatt. Moving Ghold just allows Corv to Defog a bit more comfortably.
I don't agree that Ting-Lu is that hard to beat for HO, either, especially if your teams didn't have to prepare for CE. It has a lot of natural weaknesses, including the most spammable move U-turn, and if it burns Tera then that is probably good for the opponent. Taunt basically cripples it. Encore can also cripple it.
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Ting-Lu is a part of that, it's a crazy spike stacker on offense. Srn's post on it in the viability rankings is an excellent analysis of the ways it warps the tier and every archetype around itself. I'm not convinced it should be banned but I was interested enough in it being looked into to write it in. I do feel like Samurott-H isn't a far cry from it though. Xavgb's criticisms of what both bring to the tier from like over a year ago still ring true imo
This was given up on the day Volcarona was banned sadly
Any Tourney players wanna explain what makes SV OU enjoyable? I seriously try to give this tier a chance, but I end up not having fun. Though I’ve seen several prominent members of this community state how they actually enjoy the metagame, and even think it’s in a fairly good place.
So for those grinding tourneys what makes SV OU fun/competitive? Also just for fun if you could change something about the tier what would it be?
So for those grinding tourneys what makes SV OU fun/competitive? Also just for fun if you could change something about the tier what would it be?
I am a bit flabbergasted by these survey results, i defo expected terablast to have way more support, well i guess the forum discussions really do not reflect reality, it happens, as i have said a couple of times i don't like current sv, but seing the survey results even i am confused to where the tier will go from here, i guess kyurem will get suspected a third time (please, do it fast, there is no point in waiting more, i know you guys said you will wait a bit for forum discussion, but i personally think it's just gonna be a waste of time, you just gotta make the call if you wanna suspect kyurem or terablast) i don't remeber exactly what the survey asked since for some reason they don't write the exact question in the survey results, but i think, it's becauseit was asked how broken do you think terablast is, and well, it's not like it's broken, it doesn't win every game alone, it's just annoying and unhealty, that is why i think if a suspect actually did go up most ppl would vote ban on it (but i cannot know that) to be strictly speaking tho, terblast is not the problem of the tier, the problem is tera LOL, but i have lost hope on it getting banned, it's not even on surveys anymore, just like darkrai! lol
The thing is, we are at a roadblock, and the council needs to make a decision. Do you suspect Kyurem and keep banning every single broken mon in the meta (Ogerpon and probably, if both of them get banned, Glisgor), or do you suspect Terablast and, after that, Volcarona?
Let's say we take the first road, and we end up banning all 3 mons I have nommed, we might end up in a Ting-lu infested meta, in which it's insanely strong and broken, full of bo and balance, maybe resembling ss ou (but this would be worst-case scenario + tbh I like ss ou a lot + this is just a guess)
Let's say we take the second road, and Terablast gets banned and we test Volcorona, here 2 things can happen, the first thing is that Volcorona is broken anyway, and it has to get banned, resolving nothing since just banning Terablast is NOT gonna make this meta better. The second one is that it gets unbanned, but from here I honestly can't predict where the meta would go, it's not as straightforward, but I think it would be better than what we have now, but as always I can't say for certain, and the only way to know if no Terablast Volcarona is broken, is to test it.
In the case where Terablast is banned, probably nothing would change and Kyurem and Ogerpon would need to get banned, I don't think nerfing offensive DD Kyurem would be enough for it to be not ban-worthy. But well, some people already think that current Kyurem is fine seeing survey results, so you never know.
In any case, I think it's the council that needs to decide on where they want the tier to go, and I'd like for this decision to come purely from the council uninfluenced by the survey. Maybe it was better when Abr did whatever he wanted in sm ou LOL.
Well, it's mostly because I want this decision to be at least pondered upon, without following blindly the survey. I will admit tho, that if the decision was up solely to me, I'd suspect Kyurem and call it a day, it's prob the easiest and safest choice but, I do not know if it's the right one, because we are genuinely at a crossroad, to me at least, for the tier.
In any case, I hope y'all take the decision you think is the best for the future of SV ou so that this tier may be fun even with Tera still in it, gl to everyone.
+ ban tera yahaha
The thing is, we are at a roadblock, and the council needs to make a decision. Do you suspect Kyurem and keep banning every single broken mon in the meta (Ogerpon and probably, if both of them get banned, Glisgor), or do you suspect Terablast and, after that, Volcarona?
Let's say we take the first road, and we end up banning all 3 mons I have nommed, we might end up in a Ting-lu infested meta, in which it's insanely strong and broken, full of bo and balance, maybe resembling ss ou (but this would be worst-case scenario + tbh I like ss ou a lot + this is just a guess)
Let's say we take the second road, and Terablast gets banned and we test Volcorona, here 2 things can happen, the first thing is that Volcorona is broken anyway, and it has to get banned, resolving nothing since just banning Terablast is NOT gonna make this meta better. The second one is that it gets unbanned, but from here I honestly can't predict where the meta would go, it's not as straightforward, but I think it would be better than what we have now, but as always I can't say for certain, and the only way to know if no Terablast Volcarona is broken, is to test it.
In the case where Terablast is banned, probably nothing would change and Kyurem and Ogerpon would need to get banned, I don't think nerfing offensive DD Kyurem would be enough for it to be not ban-worthy. But well, some people already think that current Kyurem is fine seeing survey results, so you never know.
In any case, I think it's the council that needs to decide on where they want the tier to go, and I'd like for this decision to come purely from the council uninfluenced by the survey. Maybe it was better when Abr did whatever he wanted in sm ou LOL.
Well, it's mostly because I want this decision to be at least pondered upon, without following blindly the survey. I will admit tho, that if the decision was up solely to me, I'd suspect Kyurem and call it a day, it's prob the easiest and safest choice but, I do not know if it's the right one, because we are genuinely at a crossroad, to me at least, for the tier.
In any case, I hope y'all take the decision you think is the best for the future of SV ou so that this tier may be fun even with Tera still in it, gl to everyone.
+ ban tera yahaha
I have no idea. no clue man.
Interesting to see support for Kyurem again. Subtect is still pretty annoying, as is specs (and I’m pretty sure scarf appeared in SPL w1). Strangely, haven’t seen DD around much. I think Zama usage has been up recently, though, which would account for that. Anyway, I’d say to suspect Kyurem first because banning Tera Blast still leaves mixed DD and subtect.
Not to be a data scientist on main but I think part of the reason why there is such dissatisfaction with the survey is that the way we do surveys is counter intuitive. Meta enjoyment, balance, and and pokemon worthiness are all qualitative data, but we use quantitative data sets in order to quantify it. Sure it could be said that numerical values could just be shorthand, but numerical values also likely mean different things to different people due to how numbers being used in qualitative formats such as reviews for games or how painful something is, leading to personal differences in how something like a 3 or 6 or 8 really means to said person. I think for things that are banworthy especially things should be restructured. Maybe like "This Pokemon isn't Banworthy." This Pokemon Should Be discussed" "This Pokemon should be suspected" and "This Pokemon should be banned" are a good metric to measure it. A community average of 3 point something really doesn't tell us as much as it should, as 3, being a middle option, could be selected by many voters who are just unsure and want to pick a safe option, giving us a number that people just kinda get mad at rather than direction for tier improvement. Sorry if this is kinda nothing I'm typing this on my lunch break at work lol
SV OU is in trouble.
SV OU is a very contentious tier that for the lack of a better word has "mixed" reception in regards to the tiering done so far. Although mostly everyone agrees the tier has a lot of work to be done and is lacking in enjoyability, people still struggle to agree on any singular point beyond a slight majority at best. The point of this post is to attempt to explain the tiers real issues and hopefully unifies at least some people in order to net any sort of tiering progress.
Also I truly do believe SV OU has potential to be the best format, it's not boring and it's genuinely fun to play when not taking it too seriously and that's the hallmark of a tier that has potential to be something great. This is why I am so passionate about fixing the gigantic issue SV OU faces, because I know as someone whos played for 12 years, I know this tier can be SO MUCH more.
A deep look into the nature of SV OU
SV OU prides itself on it's high set variance, which is complimented by it being the most top heavy OU of any modern generation and it's not very close either. This isn't a bad thing inherently though, it's a unique difference compared to other generations that doesn't exactly cause problems on its own. Having a short list of Pokemon viable for OU play usually comes at the cost of enjoyability for both spectators and players, but with dynamic sets for every Pokemon this issue sort of solves itself although not completely. Of course this set variety comes from the Tera mechanic, and set variety can be a good thing but as we all know it always depends on how effective each set is. Pokemon Like Landorus-Therian in the past have had a long list of viable sets however each don't either strain the metagame nor overcentralize. There's still other options for defoggers in SM OU, that are as good as Landorus-Therian and the same can be said for almost every other role it has too.
This is where the cracks begin to show as SV OU fails at this aspect of set variety miserably. Pokemon have a large variety of unique sets that each require their own specific counter play, and these sets as a collective either strain the metagame too much or are too centralizing (the centralizing part is pretty blatant given how top heavy this generation is). Now this wouldn't be a problem as we've had problematic Pokemon like that before such as Volcarona or Gouging Fire, where there's 1 or 2 Pokemon with a long list of highly effective sets that all do their own thing. Usually you just ban those individually broken Pokemon and call it a day, however what happens when it's more than 1 or 2 or even 5 Pokemon with high set variance with each being extremely effective and meta centralizing? Well this is what it looks like, in no particular order.
The issue of threat saturation and high set variance
Each of these Pokemon has a large variety of highly effective sets that are BOTH highly effective and centralizing, straining the metagame greatly as well as reducing Pokemon creativity. For the sake of this post I'm going to be ignoring centralization from here on out since I believe it to be the lesser of the 2 issues, but I did want to note it as I have seen post saying "its the same pokemon xd", the answer is OU Pokemon do nearly everything the best by far and it's not close at all in Gen 9. Anyways looking at this list, each of these Pokemon has tons of highly effective sets, each requiring their own different counter play and each set can then be wildly exaggerated by the Tera mechanic. It's because of this that it's no surprise that building teams is widely said to be "ass" by the community, along with gameplay feeling not particularly great either all due to the metagame strain from these 17 Pokemon. This is further backed by the decreased ladder activity, along with the resounding 6/10 enjoyment per the recent survey. Keep in mind surveys are always biased in favor of the metagame being "more fun" / Pokemon being "more balanced" than they actually are, because the people who QUIT OU from either not enjoying the metagame or from X Pokemon they think are broken, aren't there to vote on the issues! A biased 6 is a terrible score and I hope this clears up any doubt that the metagame isn't largely seen as a failure at the moment. This isn't to doom post but to force the player base to truly realize the gravity of the situation and to act on it when given the next chance.
Answering Counterpoints
So now that we know there's definitely a problem with SV OU, and I have listed the problem very blatantly we have to address the elephant in the room. The people who don't actually think metagame strain from high set variance is the issue, and here's my general stance on it. There is no individually broken Pokemon, there is no Pokemon in this list above that on their own can even semi-reliably win games. In fact it's this reason why it's so difficult to decide on a Pokemon to ban to begin with, everyone has their own biases and beliefs based upon their own understanding of the game as well as their own personal experiences. Balance player Pinkacross is going to say ban Ogerpon-Wellspring, more often than Roaring Moon while a decent amount of players believe banning Roaring Moon is the answer! The proof for my point that the meta is strained from too high set variance from the tiers threats, is in the fact that nobody can agree on a Pokemon to ban despite people pointing fingers at 10 different Pokemon LOL. Every single one of these Pokemon plays a key role in making the metagame as strained as it feels, everyone knows the feeling of building a team for hours just to love to 5 different pokemon of 10% usage because of "that 1 set can really mess me up". People bring teams to tournaments that lose to metagame staples because there is no better alternative, because the tier is strained to hell and back and outplaying the shit matchups very hard rather than building functional teams is the only thing you can do. I am not saying a team has to beat everything, but I don't even think any SV OU team beats 75% of the metagame which is extremely pathetic because 75% is a low fucking bar.
What routes can we take and how does Democracy work?
Well ok then, what's the solution to the issue of threat saturation, too much high variance whatever you want to call it? There's 2 solutions but only 1 is possible, and I think you know which they are. The first solution is to ban Tera, and this simplifies a shit ton of stuff however this is simply not possible as it's not popular enough. The other solution is to cut down the amount of relevant meta threats to reduce the symptoms of metagame strain like how RU tier was able to do. How Democracy works is you have to go with the flow of whatever is most popular that roughly represents the changes you want to see. For example Kamala in my opinion has a bad viewpoint that we should continue to rely on drilling, but that's the best we are gonna get rather than some miscellaneous 3rd party representative you like who's never going to get the votes to be elected to begin with. I know this seems like a weird tangent but it's the exact same here, just because you think Tera gone would be a good idea doesn't mean you solely only care for Tera at all cost. You simply have to take what life gives you and go from there when it comes to a vote. Democracy for competitive Pokemon is not perfect, however issues are exacerbated by the player base not understanding that you can't get what you want always in a democratic system. The fact of the matter is a Tera ban is widely unpopular, and anyone focusing on banning Tera is making a strategically dumb decision when the other option of banning Pokemon is far more feasible/possible. Again with Democracy you have to take what you can get, whatever is not popular enough by the majority is usually not worth pursuing. Shouting 'ban x unpopular thing' is pointless and all it does is divide people from focusing on the other more pressing issues with significantly more popularity behind them (Kyurem, sort of Ogerpon-Wellspring in this instance).
What do we ban?
So now that we know the issue of the metagame is strain from high threat saturation / high set variance, what Pokemon do we ban? The community can't even get to agree on a ban of a single Pokemon so why would this work? Well the reason the community can't agree on a Pokemon ban is because they don't understand that suspect test happen for different reasons. There's a difference between a suspect test on a Pokemon because the Pokemon is individually broken, compared to a suspect test on a Pokemon who makes the metagame unhealthy. It's this difference that's key. When suspect testing Kyurem you aren't arguing that it's broken on an individual basis, you should instead be arguing how it adds to the metagames strain. This was the major issue with the last Kyurem suspect test as CTC and other players were able to make good points in favor of Kyurem not being broken, with everyone completely misinterpreting the suspect test original reason. This isn't too shocking as it's rare to ban a Pokemon that isn't broken individually, we are used to stuff like Pheremosa or Genesect just nuking everything and going yep ban it. However with Pokemon that are unhealthy in more ambiguous ways like Dugtrio, player bases are historically very poor at gauging if these Pokemon/mechanics should stay in the tier. This is because players struggle to understand how a strategy or Pokemon effect the game outside of a vacuum, it's either 'pokemon auto win on its own or it must be fine xd' and we see this old ass issue popping up again right now. People are saying ban Kyurem or Ogerpon or Moon or Ting-Lu, then someone says well it's not broken and that's the key problem that person saying it's not broken on it's own is missing the overall effect the Pokemon has on the game. Very clearly the combination of Kyurem + Darkrai + Glisco + Roaring Moon + Gholdengo + Ogerpon-Wellspring etc etc is too troubling for the tier, when you put it like THAT it's far easier to quantify for even the non-qualified player base to get the message.
Whats the gameplan for SV OU Tiering then?
My opinion as someone whos played for 12 years and has topped numerous ladders in Gen 9 and Gen 8, someone who is very very knowledgeable on how this tiering shit goes is this. Kyurem is going to get tested per the survey and general community sentiment / close prior suspects. We as a community need to realize that Kyurem is the only thing that can EVER get a 60% vote as everything else in the metagame is too divisive to act on (AKA know how democracy fucking works PLEASE). We as a community need to recognize the issue with the tier is high set variance and threat saturation. We as a community need to understand Tera will never be banned during current gen OU. We as a community need to do as other tiers have like UU and RU and limit the threat amount in order to account for the high set variance from tera that's straining the tier. We as a community need to stop thinking of suspect test as "is x pokemon broken in a vacuum" and instead acknowledge that unique situations involving metagame health also exist. If we cannot ban Kyurem in this up and coming suspect test, there will not be any more tiering progress for the rest of the metagame as nothing in the past 8 months besides Kyurem is even actable on, we need to take this 1 chance we have and realize the real problems this tier faces.
SV OU is a very contentious tier that for the lack of a better word has "mixed" reception in regards to the tiering done so far. Although mostly everyone agrees the tier has a lot of work to be done and is lacking in enjoyability, people still struggle to agree on any singular point beyond a slight majority at best. The point of this post is to attempt to explain the tiers real issues and hopefully unifies at least some people in order to net any sort of tiering progress.
Also I truly do believe SV OU has potential to be the best format, it's not boring and it's genuinely fun to play when not taking it too seriously and that's the hallmark of a tier that has potential to be something great. This is why I am so passionate about fixing the gigantic issue SV OU faces, because I know as someone whos played for 12 years, I know this tier can be SO MUCH more.
A deep look into the nature of SV OU
SV OU prides itself on it's high set variance, which is complimented by it being the most top heavy OU of any modern generation and it's not very close either. This isn't a bad thing inherently though, it's a unique difference compared to other generations that doesn't exactly cause problems on its own. Having a short list of Pokemon viable for OU play usually comes at the cost of enjoyability for both spectators and players, but with dynamic sets for every Pokemon this issue sort of solves itself although not completely. Of course this set variety comes from the Tera mechanic, and set variety can be a good thing but as we all know it always depends on how effective each set is. Pokemon Like Landorus-Therian in the past have had a long list of viable sets however each don't either strain the metagame nor overcentralize. There's still other options for defoggers in SM OU, that are as good as Landorus-Therian and the same can be said for almost every other role it has too.
This is where the cracks begin to show as SV OU fails at this aspect of set variety miserably. Pokemon have a large variety of unique sets that each require their own specific counter play, and these sets as a collective either strain the metagame too much or are too centralizing (the centralizing part is pretty blatant given how top heavy this generation is). Now this wouldn't be a problem as we've had problematic Pokemon like that before such as Volcarona or Gouging Fire, where there's 1 or 2 Pokemon with a long list of highly effective sets that all do their own thing. Usually you just ban those individually broken Pokemon and call it a day, however what happens when it's more than 1 or 2 or even 5 Pokemon with high set variance with each being extremely effective and meta centralizing? Well this is what it looks like, in no particular order.
The issue of threat saturation and high set variance
Each of these Pokemon has a large variety of highly effective sets that are BOTH highly effective and centralizing, straining the metagame greatly as well as reducing Pokemon creativity. For the sake of this post I'm going to be ignoring centralization from here on out since I believe it to be the lesser of the 2 issues, but I did want to note it as I have seen post saying "its the same pokemon xd", the answer is OU Pokemon do nearly everything the best by far and it's not close at all in Gen 9. Anyways looking at this list, each of these Pokemon has tons of highly effective sets, each requiring their own different counter play and each set can then be wildly exaggerated by the Tera mechanic. It's because of this that it's no surprise that building teams is widely said to be "ass" by the community, along with gameplay feeling not particularly great either all due to the metagame strain from these 17 Pokemon. This is further backed by the decreased ladder activity, along with the resounding 6/10 enjoyment per the recent survey. Keep in mind surveys are always biased in favor of the metagame being "more fun" / Pokemon being "more balanced" than they actually are, because the people who QUIT OU from either not enjoying the metagame or from X Pokemon they think are broken, aren't there to vote on the issues! A biased 6 is a terrible score and I hope this clears up any doubt that the metagame isn't largely seen as a failure at the moment. This isn't to doom post but to force the player base to truly realize the gravity of the situation and to act on it when given the next chance.
Answering Counterpoints
So now that we know there's definitely a problem with SV OU, and I have listed the problem very blatantly we have to address the elephant in the room. The people who don't actually think metagame strain from high set variance is the issue, and here's my general stance on it. There is no individually broken Pokemon, there is no Pokemon in this list above that on their own can even semi-reliably win games. In fact it's this reason why it's so difficult to decide on a Pokemon to ban to begin with, everyone has their own biases and beliefs based upon their own understanding of the game as well as their own personal experiences. Balance player Pinkacross is going to say ban Ogerpon-Wellspring, more often than Roaring Moon while a decent amount of players believe banning Roaring Moon is the answer! The proof for my point that the meta is strained from too high set variance from the tiers threats, is in the fact that nobody can agree on a Pokemon to ban despite people pointing fingers at 10 different Pokemon LOL. Every single one of these Pokemon plays a key role in making the metagame as strained as it feels, everyone knows the feeling of building a team for hours just to love to 5 different pokemon of 10% usage because of "that 1 set can really mess me up". People bring teams to tournaments that lose to metagame staples because there is no better alternative, because the tier is strained to hell and back and outplaying the shit matchups very hard rather than building functional teams is the only thing you can do. I am not saying a team has to beat everything, but I don't even think any SV OU team beats 75% of the metagame which is extremely pathetic because 75% is a low fucking bar.
What routes can we take and how does Democracy work?
Well ok then, what's the solution to the issue of threat saturation, too much high variance whatever you want to call it? There's 2 solutions but only 1 is possible, and I think you know which they are. The first solution is to ban Tera, and this simplifies a shit ton of stuff however this is simply not possible as it's not popular enough. The other solution is to cut down the amount of relevant meta threats to reduce the symptoms of metagame strain like how RU tier was able to do. How Democracy works is you have to go with the flow of whatever is most popular that roughly represents the changes you want to see. For example Kamala in my opinion has a bad viewpoint that we should continue to rely on drilling, but that's the best we are gonna get rather than some miscellaneous 3rd party representative you like who's never going to get the votes to be elected to begin with. I know this seems like a weird tangent but it's the exact same here, just because you think Tera gone would be a good idea doesn't mean you solely only care for Tera at all cost. You simply have to take what life gives you and go from there when it comes to a vote. Democracy for competitive Pokemon is not perfect, however issues are exacerbated by the player base not understanding that you can't get what you want always in a democratic system. The fact of the matter is a Tera ban is widely unpopular, and anyone focusing on banning Tera is making a strategically dumb decision when the other option of banning Pokemon is far more feasible/possible. Again with Democracy you have to take what you can get, whatever is not popular enough by the majority is usually not worth pursuing. Shouting 'ban x unpopular thing' is pointless and all it does is divide people from focusing on the other more pressing issues with significantly more popularity behind them (Kyurem, sort of Ogerpon-Wellspring in this instance).
What do we ban?
So now that we know the issue of the metagame is strain from high threat saturation / high set variance, what Pokemon do we ban? The community can't even get to agree on a ban of a single Pokemon so why would this work? Well the reason the community can't agree on a Pokemon ban is because they don't understand that suspect test happen for different reasons. There's a difference between a suspect test on a Pokemon because the Pokemon is individually broken, compared to a suspect test on a Pokemon who makes the metagame unhealthy. It's this difference that's key. When suspect testing Kyurem you aren't arguing that it's broken on an individual basis, you should instead be arguing how it adds to the metagames strain. This was the major issue with the last Kyurem suspect test as CTC and other players were able to make good points in favor of Kyurem not being broken, with everyone completely misinterpreting the suspect test original reason. This isn't too shocking as it's rare to ban a Pokemon that isn't broken individually, we are used to stuff like Pheremosa or Genesect just nuking everything and going yep ban it. However with Pokemon that are unhealthy in more ambiguous ways like Dugtrio, player bases are historically very poor at gauging if these Pokemon/mechanics should stay in the tier. This is because players struggle to understand how a strategy or Pokemon effect the game outside of a vacuum, it's either 'pokemon auto win on its own or it must be fine xd' and we see this old ass issue popping up again right now. People are saying ban Kyurem or Ogerpon or Moon or Ting-Lu, then someone says well it's not broken and that's the key problem that person saying it's not broken on it's own is missing the overall effect the Pokemon has on the game. Very clearly the combination of Kyurem + Darkrai + Glisco + Roaring Moon + Gholdengo + Ogerpon-Wellspring etc etc is too troubling for the tier, when you put it like THAT it's far easier to quantify for even the non-qualified player base to get the message.
Whats the gameplan for SV OU Tiering then?
My opinion as someone whos played for 12 years and has topped numerous ladders in Gen 9 and Gen 8, someone who is very very knowledgeable on how this tiering shit goes is this. Kyurem is going to get tested per the survey and general community sentiment / close prior suspects. We as a community need to realize that Kyurem is the only thing that can EVER get a 60% vote as everything else in the metagame is too divisive to act on (AKA know how democracy fucking works PLEASE). We as a community need to recognize the issue with the tier is high set variance and threat saturation. We as a community need to understand Tera will never be banned during current gen OU. We as a community need to do as other tiers have like UU and RU and limit the threat amount in order to account for the high set variance from tera that's straining the tier. We as a community need to stop thinking of suspect test as "is x pokemon broken in a vacuum" and instead acknowledge that unique situations involving metagame health also exist. If we cannot ban Kyurem in this up and coming suspect test, there will not be any more tiering progress for the rest of the metagame as nothing in the past 8 months besides Kyurem is even actable on, we need to take this 1 chance we have and realize the real problems this tier faces.
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You are correct in averaging data using a 1-5 qualitative scale does not make a ton of sense. It's still a good enough shorthand for the survey's purpose when the 1 and 5 are understood by everyone as "don't ban" and "ban immediately" and the gradient differs by player. There's enough logic in the wisdom of crowds to offset the flaw of averages and generate some signal in an otherwise noisy process.
As for the very good post above this one, if a whole box of Pokemon is considered busted, maybe it's not the Pokemon and the real issue is something else (Tera).
A fairly honest wallbreaker that got the highest amount of support for a test by both the general public, qualified voters, and players duking out in SPL. Truly we Kyurem-haters are firmly in control.
But for real, I'm not about all that Internet negativity, so I'm going to shout out a mon who I think is (a little bit, not a lot) underrated:
Here me out. We all know about that silly "7 fucking ground types meme", but most of those ground types ain't switching into the molten frog with the exception of Ting-Lu who still doesn't want to switch in cuz Magma Storm kinda chunks it. Resistance profile on Heatran is still goated as it was back in all the old gens. But that's not why I think Heatran is worth exploring rn though. Not super in-tune with what's en-vogue but I think the current meta trends (well at least the stuff I've been seeing on ladder) kinda favor Heatran a bit more than you would think. A lot of MFers are not running any real bulky water types (AV Prim got shot outback) and are instead relying on Ting-Lu + Dragonite to do their dirty work checking the fire types. Problem is that those two can be pretty bad into Heatran.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 116 HP / 20 Def / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earth Power
Here's the set I've been running. 120 speed to troll mons that are trying to creep Max Speed Kingambit. Modest Max Special Attack to really blow chunks into anything switching in. 116 HP and 20 Def as the dump stats for extra bulk. Could probably mess around a bit more with the HP and Def but I don't got any targets in mind for that. Tera Flying cuz if I'm wasting Tera on Heatran, then that means I need to be aggressive and am probably trying to burn a Will-O-Wisp/Magma Storm on a Lu, Zama, Dragonite, Roaring Goon, or Tusk who are getting frisky with Ground Type/Fighting moves.
Stealth Rocks is not a real move on Heatran, don't run it. Will-O-Wisp trolls shit like Dragonite and Samurott pretty hard and its not like Ting-Lu wants to switch in either. Wogre can't switch in either cuz it's liable to get OHKOed after Rocks + 1 Layer of Spikes. It's also a pretty half-decent answer to DD Kyurem too, but Kyurem's a clown so you still gotta double up on answers to it anyways.
Alomomola can troll you pretty hard if ur not careful, but I pair this Heatran with Wogre to troll it back. Also its not like it really does all that much to you anyway. Gliscor is always annoying af for Heatran but its not an amazing switch-in so bring mons that abuse Gliscor (like Wogre... go figure). Spikes support from Ting-Lu is also appreciated to mess with switch-ins but you could also fit Spikes on Wogre too if you don't want any fat on the squad.
The reason why you would even want to run Heatran over Iron Moth is cause of Will-O-Wisp and Taunt so if you're trying to use Tera Blast on Heatran you might as well use the faster and stronger Iron Moth over the dude. Obviously Heatran always has to come with the caveat that it is an amazing mon approximately 75% of the time, but I mostly use Heatran as a bulky Will-O-Wisp, Taunt merchant anyway. There is a case to run Cinderace or even Ceruledge in this role, but the froggy has neat attributes to make it worth over them. I'd recommend u give it a whirl but just know that you will get frustrated by it at times.
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Im still hung up on this, not as in I sent that in, but man the war is so over even the reparations have been exchanged, why are you still posted up?
Anyways god is it really between Woger and Kyurem AGAIN? If I had to, i'd go Woger then Kyurem only because Kyu got 2 DNB results already, space it out a bit will ya?
This is an outstanding post. There is an issue with threat saturation rather than individual Pokemon being broken. Given that is the issue, we should target the mons that have the least consistent counterplay between different sets, with the focus being on Kyurem since it's the only mon enough players want to get rid of for any possible change to occur and 'cause of counterplay for the physical, mixed DD, and special sets often differing wildly. As a result, anyone who wants the meta to change should vote "Ban" on Kyurem to ease threat saturation and free up teambuilding.
Trying to drop more Ubers into OU like with the Palafin suspect will only make matters worse, so no to Solgaleo or other shitty Uber Pokemon being tested in OU as that will only make threat saturation worse, and that literally was the reason Palafin stayed banned if you had been paying to the arguments made during that suspect test. Maybe if we reach a point in which balance has been reached, we can consider dropping something, but that is a horrible idea at this time.
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Third Kyurem test is crazy, should never happen but if it does DNB army will pull up and save the tier once again.
I said some weeks ago that the community had to decide whether to increase the power level with the introduction of many UUbers or reduce the power level with the collective ban of 6-10 mons, because we are in an awkward middle ground. No individual mon is broken or too outrageous, and even if Kyurem is banned in the 3rd suspect test, nothing else will.
We whould not be arguing about banning individual pokemon, but a whole group of 10-12, at the same time.
We whould not be arguing about banning individual pokemon, but a whole group of 10-12, at the same time.
literally what is your alternative to improving the tier if the only relatively popular option is to ban kyurem? everything else is considerably less popular for action and it's been this way for the past 8 months
Ok, the "8 fucking ground types" meme is an exaggeration at best. Moth has that weakness and look how far it's going. And it's not like Gliscor and Landorus have ever enjoyed looking at Ice cubes.A fairly honest wallbreaker that got the highest amount of support for a test by both the general public, qualified voters, and players duking out in SPL. Truly we Kyurem-haters are firmly in control.
But for real, I'm not about all that Internet negativity, so I'm going to shout out a mon who I think is (a little bit, not a lot) underrated:
Here me out. We all know about that silly "7 fucking ground types meme", but most of those ground types ain't switching into the molten frog with the exception of Ting-Lu who still doesn't want to switch in cuz Magma Storm kinda chunks it. Resistance profile on Heatran is still goated as it was back in all the old gens. But that's not why I think Heatran is worth exploring rn though. Not super in-tune with what's en-vogue but I think the current meta trends (well at least the stuff I've been seeing on ladder) kinda favor Heatran a bit more than you would think. A lot of MFers are not running any real bulky water types (AV Prim got shot outback) and are instead relying on Ting-Lu + Dragonite to do their dirty work checking the fire types. Problem is that those two can be pretty bad into Heatran.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 116 HP / 20 Def / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earth Power
Here's the set I've been running. 120 speed to troll mons that are trying to creep Max Speed Kingambit. Modest Max Special Attack to really blow chunks into anything switching in. 116 HP and 20 Def as the dump stats for extra bulk. Could probably mess around a bit more with the HP and Def but I don't got any targets in mind for that. Tera Flying cuz if I'm wasting Tera on Heatran, then that means I need to be aggressive and am probably trying to burn a Will-O-Wisp/Magma Storm on a Lu, Zama, Dragonite, Roaring Goon, or Tusk who are getting frisky with Ground Type/Fighting moves.
Stealth Rocks is not a real move on Heatran, don't run it. Will-O-Wisp trolls shit like Dragonite and Samurott pretty hard and its not like Ting-Lu wants to switch in either. Wogre can't switch in either cuz it's liable to get OHKOed after Rocks + 1 Layer of Spikes. It's also a pretty half-decent answer to DD Kyurem too, but Kyurem's a clown so you still gotta double up on answers to it anyways.
Alomomola can troll you pretty hard if ur not careful, but I pair this Heatran with Wogre to troll it back. Also its not like it really does all that much to you anyway. Gliscor is always annoying af for Heatran but its not an amazing switch-in so bring mons that abuse Gliscor (like Wogre... go figure). Spikes support from Ting-Lu is also appreciated to mess with switch-ins but you could also fit Spikes on Wogre too if you don't want any fat on the squad.
The reason why you would even want to run Heatran over Iron Moth is cause of Will-O-Wisp and Taunt so if you're trying to use Tera Blast on Heatran you might as well use the faster and stronger Iron Moth over the dude. Obviously Heatran always has to come with the caveat that it is an amazing mon approximately 75% of the time, but I mostly use Heatran as a bulky Will-O-Wisp, Taunt merchant anyway. There is a case to run Cinderace or even Ceruledge in this role, but the froggy has neat attributes to make it worth over them. I'd recommend u give it a whirl but just know that you will get frustrated by it at times.
Tangent on memes aside, i'll take a mental note on Heatran for sure. Always liked using it on teams as long as it doesn't throw with Magma Storm.
