Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

If there is one mon for me that kinda just makes me wonder why in a community that's so used to banning uncompetitive things "how hasn't this been banned", it definitely has to be Gholdengo.

It's not just the best Anti Hazard Removal, it's really the only reason other teams can run any ghost type on their team to Spin Block and why Defog is almost non existent.

Also, with the rise of sticky web teams, I could see this thing causing problems. Once it sets up, there'd no status moves stopping it from running over most teams depending on the coverage moves (no Haze users are stopping this thing 1v1)

I just feel it's too powerful an ability on a mon with such an amazing typing and above average stats
Gholdengo is not and has not been remotely a big problem for a long time. The worst that can be said is it's very good into Balance with its bulky BP sets, but that's it. It is not at all uncompetitive. It is not "why defog is almost nonexistent". Corv can still fog on non Ghold teams, who as goodas it is, is NOT on every team and Corv can still pivot at worst. The reason Defog barely exists is because outside Corv, there is no good defoggers. No, banning Ghold will not make other lower tier Defoggers suddenly become worth using. They're bad for far more reasons than Ghold.

I'm not sure what Webs even relates to here outside Ghold fitting on them, but Webs even with Araq becoming OU, still aren't a particularly dominant or great playstyle. They still have consistency issues and problems into a number of things.
 
We need better arguments from the pro-ban side this time as the quality of discussion was really poor and even many people on the pro-ban side last time agreed that the anti-ban side did better with making their case for why Kyurem should stay.
let's not forget that the pro-ban side technically did win from an ideological standpoint, even after the cheater votes were thrown out. the votes didn't end up reflecting it, but 75 legitimate voters wanted it banned and 50 didn't
 
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So, its pretty much between Kyurem and Waterpon at this point. While Kyurem is more hated, I think that it would have a higher chance to be banned if we Suspect and Ban Waterpon first. While this is often not the right thing to do, some people surely voted Do Not Ban on Kyurem due to it keeping in check some other broken Mons (Waterpon, Gliscor and Raging Bolt for example). Its not even a reliable check to either, but if some of those Mons (starting from Waterpon) are removed, Kyurem is more likely to be banned because of that.
 
personally i think you actually do have some footing to stand on with malignant chain—it's an rng roll that leads to several more rng rolls so there's an inherently uncompetitive element to it—but i don't think it's a problematic part of the meta right now. if we're looking towards rng cheese, let's focus on static and flame body, which i just now realize i totally forgot to write in on the survey but should absolutely be a target for tiering action in the future, especially if we're looking to bring volcarona home after a tb ban
Is the uncompetitive part of Pecharunt coming from Malignant Chain or Poison Puppeteer?
 
The only reason there could be a third kyurem suspect is because a unserious vote, take that as you will.
Don't let LosetoRU and the cheaters from the 2nd test distract you from the fact that Mr. Krabs sold Spongebob's soul for 62 cents...

Ok but seriously. One thing I was shocked to hear was that Ting-Lu of all things was receiving support for a test. Now, I might be looking at the survace level a bit too much, but isn't Ting-Lu a valuable defensive backbone for a lot of teams? I suspect maybe Hazard Stacking teams play a part in that distaste towards it, but i'm genuinely unsure.
 
I feel i have dedicated a lot of time into forcing TB discussion into this thread the past few months and I will do my best not to from here on out. I felt it was going somewhere but I see Kyurem and something else will always mark slightly higher. Tera blast is here to stay this gen.

Despite logically tera blast ban immediately making one of kyurems sets less powerful and it likely leading to redacted also avalible to check kyurem- people would rather keep going at kyurem itself. Okay.

The cringe of a third test may cause us to rotate around towards Woger first and I understand. I'm not even mad people voted for woger by a slight amount more than TB- It is a strong mon. But i think we understand that if and once wogers gone it will likely then result in conversation about gliscor again.. and at some point Kyurem regardless.

I wouldnt be suprised if post gen 9 the few still playing this then ban TB and the resulting meta resembles what we could have instead had a month from now. And I think it would be better.

But this fork in the road has taken tera blast off the table for the generation. I will do my best not to slow down mon ban discussions with any alternate proposals. If I can be disciplined enough I won't post again at all until it's time to haha react the posts in 2026/27 about Tera blast being banned and the resulting unbans.

Take care
 
the problem with a tb ban, policy-wise, is that opposition is coming from both sides of the tera debate. there's no-actioners who don't want anything touched, and there's full-ban people who think anything other than a complete ban on tera is a half-measure that doesn't solve the problems with the mechanic. meanwhile, many of the people who would be open to a tb ban aren't really invested in it—plenty of pro-tera people would probably be fine with axing tb to preserve the rest of the mechanic but are probably not going to mobilize in support of a ban. the only markets you're capturing with the idea of a tera blast ban are:
  • anti-tera people who see any action against tera as a step in the right direction
  • generally-pro-tera people who see tera blast as the only bad aspect of the mechanic
  • people who really want volcarona back
suffice it to say, these demographics don't seem to be big enough to drive a movement

the next step, i think, is to get tera itself on a survey and see what the playerbase thinks of it. it was a dead end the last two surveys it was put on, i myself was pretty smug about that, but since then it's been banned in natdex and that might have shifted some perspectives. only one way to find out
absolutely agree with all of this, blunder said something similar in his palafin vid on wanting to see how many would support a tera ban

Anyway time for kyurem suspect #3 lock in and get it out of here
 
Council lobs us an opportunity to finally do away with Tera blast and somehow we get Kyurem suspect #12 out of it ): please make it stop, this Mon has put up a genuinely pathetic performance in SPL and there is no legitimate reason to view it as a problem at this point
yeah, such a pathetic performance that spl players specifically scored it higher on the survey than the general or qualified playerbase. i'm sure you know better than them though, having never played in a tour at all
 
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Council lobs us an opportunity to finally do away with Tera blast and somehow we get Kyurem suspect #12 out of it ): please make it stop, this Mon has put up a genuinely pathetic performance in SPL and there is no legitimate reason to view it as a problem at this point
See here's my thing: If Kyurem is scoring noticeably higher than Tera Blast, perhaps tat means there IS legitimate reason to consider it a problem by the people playing a the highest level where it's put up the biggest numbers repeatedly. If Tera Blast keeps scoring high after Kyurem gets bonked, I'd be in favor of testing it, but it's also fruitless to clamor for TB on the survey and then reject the survey numbers because they point to other things as higher priority.

Focusing on Tera Blast to reduce the level of things like Kyurem or Kingambit just reminds me of casually running into YGO jokes about banning a bunch of Tuner Monsters instead of a card called Crystron Halqifibrax that was showing up in so many of their degenerate strategies. There's probably more nuance than I sound like, but the focus of the complaints and the element that keeps coming up is the logical one to hit first and it looks silly to dance around it when we don't have a business interest in keeping a piece around regardless of imbalance.
 
I'm seeing so many conflicting takes about SV OU rn that i'm pretty unsure how to take it.

You got some guys going on rants (interesting reads, though) that mention why they think this metagame is falling off or whatever synonym of bad you want to use. It makes me wonder how the survey will turn out, and the tiering action after the fact. Makes me wonder how the gen will end tbh.

To anyone who played or kept up with SS OU when it was current gen, did it have many of these arguments SV OU does? Were people always this up in arms with how lame the tier was, or is it a case of "current gen bad" and people are just getting bored of the tier? I'm actually curious

I think the problem is that nothing is broken, a couple things are borderline overcentralizing or uncompetitive, and there's no widespread agreement on what those things are.

For example:


Is Gholdengo a major contributor to the prominence of hazard stack, or is it a scapegoat for the harsh cutback of Defog distribution? I'm in the latter camp - Corv still sees plenty of use and there's no other broadly OU-viable Defogger, just a couple of niche options, like Talonflame on stall. Further, there's no Rapid Spinners being pushed out of OU by Gholdengo, and the existing Rapid Spinners can all easily run moves to hit the string cheese man. In my eyes, it's a contributing factor, but a very minor one on par with other strong ghosts like Sinistcha and Pecharunt.

But...there's also an argument that a couple of niche Defog options would add up to something meaningful, even if none individually are significant. From this viewpoint, a rise in Corviknight usage is a desirable thing that serves an additional purpose of being a good steel type with recovery, filling Gholdengo's defensive role while offering Defog. Gholdengo's removal also opens up Mortal Spin as a removal tool, which isn't used currently but may see use if the premier spinblocker didn't also shut it down.


Is Kyurem overcentralizing and excessively restricting team building, or does it have adequate answers? On the one hand, Ice/Ground coverage is spectacular and Kyurem has physical, special, and mixed sets, making it very punishing if you misidentify the set - possibly too much so; if Kyurem gets off a free Dragon Dance and has tera available, you're probably going to have to sacrifice something to get a revenge killer in safely. Sub-Tect can be almost equally threatening if Kyurem gets a free Substitute off, and Specs is generally strong if you don't have one of the handful of counters healthy.

On the other hand, any set lacking HDB is immensely vulnerable to hazards and forcing it out once can be enough to leave Kyurem unable to set up on much; two rounds of Stealth Rock and (one layer of) Spikes leaves Kyurem easily killed by neutral attacks, for example. If you do predict them correctly, the setup sets aren't all that scary, and Specs is just a good breaker, not anything overpowered. Counterplay in the builder can be difficult, but counterplay during the games is readily available compared to some of the other top threats in OU; Kyurem requires a fair degree of support, and its relatively low usage reflects that.


Is Kingambit a massively overcentralizing presence that has shaped the tier around itself in an unhealthy manner, or is it shaping the tier around itself in a healthy way? I don't think there's any argument that Kingambit isn't one of the two or three most influential mons in OU, but there's a lot of disagreement over how to look at that influence.

If you view Kingambit as a problem, you look at how every team needs an answer to last-mon Kingambit; if you don't view it as a problem, then you'll point to how Kingambit's slow speed and reliance on Sucker Punch means that it's almost trivial to fit those answers. Both of those statements are objectively true, as well - you'll get reverse swept without a counter, and it's easy to find counters, but how you weight the two truths determines whether you think the mon is a problem.


Lastly, the consensus is that "threat saturation" is one of the tier's largest concerns, but there's no easy choice in what to remove when no single mon (or move, given that Tera Blast is an option, one which I heavily support banning, or mechanic, given that a vocal minority want to remove terastalization altogether) stands out above the rest.
 
But...there's also an argument that a couple of niche Defog options would add up to something meaningful, even if none individually are significant. From this viewpoint, a rise in Corviknight usage is a desirable thing that serves an additional purpose of being a good steel type with recovery, filling Gholdengo's defensive role while offering Defog. Gholdengo's removal also opens up Mortal Spin as a removal tool, which isn't used currently but may see use if the premier spinblocker didn't also shut it down.
I found G-Weezing to be a great Defogger. Powerful fire moves punishes greedy switches, while popping balloons, and Toxic Spikes for free. And so much team utility! Wisp for Gambit, Levitate is a massive boon, Toxic, and hazards on a Defogger of not a bad idea.

I wanna test regular Weezing for teams that are too fairy heavy as is.
 
I wouldn’t be upset if Rilaboom was somehow gone for whatever reason. The amount of bullshit it enables is excruciatingly painful even if it’s not terribly problematic on its own. People cry about how Woger can just mash Ivy Cudgel after Tera but nobody talks about how Rilaboom can do the same thing and with priority.
Zapdos, Moltres, Pecharunt, Corviknight (and most steels for that matter) are all good switchins. Woger on the other hand has quite literally no safe switches
 
Bro watches too much blunder. Also why did so many people put ting-lu on the survey? Isn't offense already dominant enough?

Hazard stack complaints. The reason for concern with Ting-Lu is how easily it can stack up Spikes, while also dealing fairly hefty damage to the opposing team with the combination of Ruination and Earthquake, so it's a super reliable progress maker in two different ways.
 
Zapdos, Moltres, Pecharunt, Corviknight (and most steels for that matter) are all good switchins.
So, only unintuitive fatmons/stallmons. Got it.
Woger on the other hand has quite literally no safe switches
Opposing Woger, Araq, Gunk Shot Cinder, Clefeeble, Kingambit and Dragapult (kind of), Raging Neck, Zamazenta, and of course Rilaboom.
 
So, only unintuitive fatmons/stallmons. Got it.
Moltres sees occasional play on Stall, but saying it's stuck on it and fat teams is crazy. And Zapdos flat out sucks in Stall

Opposing Woger, Araq, Gunk Shot Cinder, Clefeeble, Kingambit and Dragapult (kind of), Raging Neck, Zamazenta, and of course Rilaboom.
Notice how all the listed pokemon are either offensive checks or lose to certain coverage moves Wellspring can and does run
 
Opposing Woger, Araq, Gunk Shot Cinder, Clefeeble, Kingambit and Dragapult (kind of), Raging Neck, Zamazenta, and of course Rilaboom.
Opposing Wogers and Araquanids get blown up by Power Whip, you are never switching in Cinderace on Wellspring, Clefable and Gambit get smashed by Tera Cudgel anyways, Dragapult and Raging Bolt get destroyed by Play Rough (most common coverage move), Zama doesn't want to take it either, and Rillaboom can't really switch in. Let's try thinking before we post next time.
 
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