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OU DPP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Excal
- Start date
If getting rid of Machamp won't solve the paraspam issue in one fell stroke, perhaps the tier should look into removing Thunder Wave. The main difference from future generations where it's not as broken (but still very good) is that it can paralyze electric types, limiting counterplay quite a bit. Pokemon like Starmie getting Thunder Wave compounds with this, forcing teams without the blobs to take paralysis on a Pokemon that it cripples. Thunder Wave isn't really a one Pokemon issue either, it's a greater issue with how the move functions in the generation.
Curious, if machamp for some reason doesnt get banned, how long owuld it take till rachi has any form of action taken against it?
Or what next? Assuming action may have to come after rachi is banned. Since this is an old gen im curious how fast action may happen
Or what next? Assuming action may have to come after rachi is banned. Since this is an old gen im curious how fast action may happen
I think the next time we can expect any action in this tier is post-SPL. I don’t have the insider knowledge but it makes sense they don’t want to disturb the meta too much during one of their biggest tournaments. It isn’t an urgent matter, maybe if it were currgen but it’s safer not to risk messing with the tier now instead of doing it in the off-season where higher level play has less stakes. Based on survey results, I’d probably say Jirachi is next to be suspected. And a few others believe Thunder Wave should be restricted like Freeze Clause and Sleep Clause. Maybe that’s another option they will explore.
I think what makes Jirachi's situation more complex than Machamp is that Machamp was basically only good for No Guard Dynamic Punch, whereas Jirachi is a staple on so many teams because of its versatility. Sets that take advantage of Serene Grace Iron Head and Body Slam are the most common, but Jirachi can also run special sets and wish sets. It can fill all sorts of different niches needed in a team. Jirachi is probably next up on the chopping block to get suspected, and it will be interesting to see if it gets to stay.
with regards to the "what's next on the chopping block" and "what can we change after spl" remember that it's not a certain that anything changes, actually. there might
maybe be support for jira or thunder wave but there's a large amount of people who are pretty happy with DPP as it is.
maybe be support for jira or thunder wave but there's a large amount of people who are pretty happy with DPP as it is.
This is true. DPP is a very old metagame, so changes made to it happen pretty infrequently. The format has had a long time to settle in and get rid of anything that would warrant a ban. I personally think if they were to do another suspect test, it’d be Jirachi because of Serene Grace + Iron Head/Body Press. However, I’ve used Jirachi on a number of my teams in the past to fill many different roles, and the same goes for pretty much anyone who’s made a DPP team. Jirachi is such a staple mon that it can comfortably fit onto almost any archetype. I would say it’s pretty far from broken or meta-ruining. Jirachi just a really good Pokemon, so I doubt a hypothetical suspect test would go anywhere. The Machamp ban has certainly turned some eyes onto the DPP meta, and it will be interesting to see if that affects the frequency of suspect tests.
i personally think, as a newer player, Jirachi does warrant a ban, because there are so many freaking threats in the meta that aren't rachi so the fact that my skarmory can get cheesed just like that, the i i get 5-0ed by a random Gyrados or something, makes Rachi feel unhealthy to me at least
Hey everyone.
I'd like to conduct some independant research on my own to help with my own theories surrounding the Gen 4 meta. I've started a survey a bit more in-depth than the survey given out at the end of SPL, but without trying to step on the toes of that survey. I would like anyone who sees this post to please fill out the survey to your best ability.
- - JoshSketch's Gen 4 OU Survey - -
I'd like to conduct some independant research on my own to help with my own theories surrounding the Gen 4 meta. I've started a survey a bit more in-depth than the survey given out at the end of SPL, but without trying to step on the toes of that survey. I would like anyone who sees this post to please fill out the survey to your best ability.
- - JoshSketch's Gen 4 OU Survey - -
Is there a place in the meta for "slow" scarf sets?
For example, Infernape can run 108 speed EVs to outrun everything up to Heatran and go 252+ Atk/148 SpA (or whatever mix is needed - this is just an example). Obviously you miss out on scarf base 100s in this case, but the ability to go +attack nature and still outspeed everything unboosted seems like it could be useful on some setups.
If you give up on outspeeding +1s and opposing scarves, you can drop the EVs way down. Zapdos can run 24 speed EVs and outspeed Starmie and below.
Some potential users of mixed slow scarf:
Are these slower spreads ever used in practice? Has anyone tried and/or got an informed opinion on this style of spread?
For example, Infernape can run 108 speed EVs to outrun everything up to Heatran and go 252+ Atk/148 SpA (or whatever mix is needed - this is just an example). Obviously you miss out on scarf base 100s in this case, but the ability to go +attack nature and still outspeed everything unboosted seems like it could be useful on some setups.
If you give up on outspeeding +1s and opposing scarves, you can drop the EVs way down. Zapdos can run 24 speed EVs and outspeed Starmie and below.
Some potential users of mixed slow scarf:
- Infernape - appreciates extra damage on special moves / not dying to flare blitz
- Blaziken - slower speed, but higher base attacks could make it a useful slow scarf (if you don't mind losing u-turn, close combat...)
- Azelf - is powering up explosion useful?
- Zapdos - 252+ thunderbolts with a bit extra bulk (probably just strictly worse than using specs)
- Staraptor - official analysis says 56HP/252+Atk/200Spe - could go all the way down to 152HP/104Spe if you only need to outspeed adamant gyara
Electivire (lol)
Are these slower spreads ever used in practice? Has anyone tried and/or got an informed opinion on this style of spread?
jirachi and uxie can run scarf sets slow as 263 speed because they want to trick lock something turn 1
probably togekiss can do something similar
-Azelf typically caps at 308 Spd to Trick Lock something in order to lock Stealth Rock leads into an undesirable spot, Aero for instance hates Choice Scarf.
-I’ve seen Scarf Ape used, not necessarily the best since Ape wants Anti-DD options such as Rotom, Shuca Meta, or Flygon.
-Not a fan of Scarf Zap bc Rocks, Specs is better to fry Sp Def Heatran or Tyranitar with your Thunderbolt (Thunder was used with T-bolt, but that was against Machamp)
-Scarf Gallade is kinda interesting, Lady Bug used it against BKC during the SPL, worth a try so long as you have solid answers to Clef teams
Thanks (and to Blåhaj Blast)!
Trick-lock is a nice example. What does Gallade use the extra speed EVs for if running a slow scarf? Just +Atk and better able to tank special attacks?
People do use slow scarf sets. You may not see players talk about it because as soon you become known to drop speed you may face players who will try to go for speed ties against you. I know examples of players dropping speed to 264 / 288 / 300 / 330 speed to gain an additionnal offensive pivot during the early/mid game. Pokemon like Jirachi, Rotom and Latias appreciate having more bulk, as they often have to stomach 1 or 2 hits for their team in order to grab momentum back. You could also drop speed on Scarf Heatran to 264, although it's a bit riskier because Scarf Heatran duels occasionnaly happen.
To give you a few examples for Jirachi:
TrickLead (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SpD / 112 Spe
Careful Nature
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Iron Head
Scarf 4 Attacks (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 104 HP / 248 Atk / 8 SpD / 148 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch
Scarf Fire Punch Off (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick
- U-turn