Why do Prinplup and Empoleon have Tackle as a starting move, while Piplup has Pound as a starting move? It seems intentional as it's been this way in every generation. This is something fans could easily miss because no one would really pay attention to Empoleon's starting moves. This is odd to me, is there some lore reason for Tackle instead of Pound?
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Actually, why does Piplup even have Pound?
Is Pound really that different from Tackle?
For the first four gens it was better Tackle. 5 points stronger, 5 points more accurate. Then Tackle got buffed to 50 BP/100% for a few gens before going down to 40 BP.
Generally it's given to Pokemon they think are cute and would smack you rather than do a full body tackle. There's a few exceptions here & there and ultimately it is all kind of arbitrary especially now that they're the same move but you see it with things like short limbs, small statures or goop.
I honestly feel like this is just because they started off as copy pasted Squirtle lines as seen in the betas and nobody looked back to change it.
I also feel like they don't really care to align past starters with modern learnset design that much until they need to for a relevant game/remake (or appearing in SWSH and getting your learnset messed up with its sorting by raw power order), so you end up with Cyndaquil in SV learning Ember at 10 since Gen 4, Scorbunny still having it at 6 because of the SWSH tutorial, while the starters that showed up in Gen 6+ games get theirs before 5.
What's with the new Scald learnset? Originally, Scald was given to every water type, which sucked and was broken, but was at least consistent. It's a water TM, every water-type gets in. Gen IX rolls around, and they yank the move from all movepools. Again, makes sense, they're desperately trying to fix balance mistakes. And then the DLC drops, and Scald ends up on the moveset of...exclusively bulky mons that want to CroCune. As in, the exact mons that made it such an oppressive annoying move in the first place. Why do Slowbro, Almolamola, and Milotic get Scald, but Blastoise, Kingdra, and Clauncher don't? There's some mons that get it for flavor reasons, sure, but Vaporeon doesn't have flavor beyond "water-type" and it gets the move. Either they still want it to be broken on the stuff that gets it or they fundamentally don't understand why people picked it over Surf.
Glancing at the list I assume they decided they were okay with bulkier Pokemon getting it because they want the ability to spread burn to be their "thing" and don't see it as overwhelming on the ones they decided to give it to. Especially if they saw the mon in question as maybe being weaker.
Which is all to say Toxapex didn't get to keep scald because it aws seen as more problematic, & they went out of their way to remove it from a bunch of the faster Pokemon especially if they saw use, but they're fine with some rando like Alomomola having it as a shtick to embrace on or the lesser used Milotic. Then, as to not just giving it to EVERY bulky type, well, probably just for whatever they deemed as variety. So no on Quagsire, yes on Lanturn and so on.
And then of course they have the Exceptions which get to be fast, strong and have Scald because those are the ones gamefreak deems gets to have more fun.
Which is all to say Toxapex didn't get to keep scald because it aws seen as more problematic, & they went out of their way to remove it from a bunch of the faster Pokemon especially if they saw use, but they're fine with some rando like Alomomola having it as a shtick to embrace on or the lesser used Milotic. Then, as to not just giving it to EVERY bulky type, well, probably just for whatever they deemed as variety. So no on Quagsire, yes on Lanturn and so on.
And then of course they have the Exceptions which get to be fast, strong and have Scald because those are the ones gamefreak deems gets to have more fun.
Slowbro and Slowking would admittedly be weird without Scald from a flavour perspective, since they also get the main forms of fire-type coverage (hopefully Octillery regains Scald when it shows up again). Bulbapedia does also list Kingdra as getting it. Still wierd that half the available gunners don't.
Scald shouldn't exist to begin with, but I'm fine with a restricted distribution.
Next thing you know we get a Ground move with Paralysis chance and an electric move with sleep chance
I'd point that it's more likely that they didn't remove Scald for the reason you think they did.
I think their main aim was the opposite of what your average smogonite thinks: remove it from offensive pokemon while leaving it to defensive ones who want to use it for the burn.
In VGC, Scald was a give on any water type. There was never a reason to use Surf nor Hydro Pump over the guaranteed damage + burn chance, giving rain specifically a edge on the boosted stab over other weathers.
The removal of Scald from things like Pelipper forces a tradeoff: you run HydroPump for damage but risk the accuracy? Muddy Water for the spread dmg but again risk doing 0 dmg? Maybe you rather have the newly distributrd Weather Ball for reliability but lose stab completely if weather is removed!
This is a pretty good design choice I can't disagree with.
Adding it back to most defensive waters (as well as some water types it made sense for thematically) was likely cause it just "works" in their gameplan, they want to survive and deal chip, which Scald perfectly works for as we all know.
As for Toxapex, idk maybe they just hate the pex.
Toxapex lost Scald because of a similar revamp they did with regards to poison. Cut Toxic from almost everything so that it’s no longer the go-to status condition for any non-specialist mon, and instead limit its distribution back to the Poison-Type Pokémon who can make real use of it.
Obviously Pecharunt and the Toxic Chain mons are the thought leaders as far as this revamp is concerned, but you also have Glimmora with both Corrosion and Toxic Debris being centred around the poison status, so they were bearing this in mind for the regular mons too. And Toxapex has Merciless, a signature ability based around the poison status. Poison is supposed to be its whole thing, but thanks to Scald it was a burn fisher instead.
They removed Scald from Toxapex because of their new ideological purity, basically. Toxapex is supposed to be one of the Pokémon giving poison status its identity, it makes poison look bad if it prefers the burn status. So just take the burn status away and now the problem’s “solved”.
The method of which Pound is used is fairly different - while Tackle is just using the general shape of the body, Pound is used with the hands (Poliwag also gets it? I don’t know…)
I always assumed poliwag in particular did the motion with their tail, but I'm not sure if that's a stretch
Poliwag's meant to be using the tail almost assuredly. It's how the anime showed it using Double Slap iirc.
Anyway Pound is generally done as a "smack", and most of the Pokemon that learn the move have little nubs for hands, big fins, dont have bones (Grimer), have weak-looking limbs or generally meant to come across as "cute" or "feminine". The biggest (NFE) outliers are probably Kangaskhan (probably meant as a "light smack" to their child, I guess?), Golett and Timburr. Timburr could be a pun since it's pounding with its big stick but that's dependent on if "pound" is used for similar language in Japanese; Golett...maybe to show it's a gentle giant?
And Regigigas. Which...well looking at its moveset over the years I guess they wanted it to have a weak level 1 stab move in Gen 8. But then L:A, which didn't have Pound, just gave it Tackle so...maybe it's jsut a Slow Start joke. Pound comes off as weaker than something like a full body tackle.
Anyway Pound is generally done as a "smack", and most of the Pokemon that learn the move have little nubs for hands, big fins, dont have bones (Grimer), have weak-looking limbs or generally meant to come across as "cute" or "feminine". The biggest (NFE) outliers are probably Kangaskhan (probably meant as a "light smack" to their child, I guess?), Golett and Timburr. Timburr could be a pun since it's pounding with its big stick but that's dependent on if "pound" is used for similar language in Japanese; Golett...maybe to show it's a gentle giant?
And Regigigas. Which...well looking at its moveset over the years I guess they wanted it to have a weak level 1 stab move in Gen 8. But then L:A, which didn't have Pound, just gave it Tackle so...maybe it's jsut a Slow Start joke. Pound comes off as weaker than something like a full body tackle.
I would guess it's the baby which is doing the pounding.
I don't know if this really fits the thread but it kinda pisses me off that in Gen 9 they removed Mystical Fire from Sylveon's learnset. That move was so cool for it, and arguably a bit iconic of a set- it's literally in Pokemon Unite:
Which often takes some inspiration from competitive sets/moves.
I don't really get the way they handled this. It's not even like they took it off every non-Fire, Gardevoir Mismagius Flutter Mane Enamorus Hatterene all still learn it.
And if you think Sylveon isn't witchy enough, like, why doesn't Espeon get it? Espeon has literally had official promotional artwork and plushies as a Mismagius-Witch:
speaking of which if anyone has a free kidney LMK I want this in my life
Which often takes some inspiration from competitive sets/moves.
I don't really get the way they handled this. It's not even like they took it off every non-Fire, Gardevoir Mismagius Flutter Mane Enamorus Hatterene all still learn it.
And if you think Sylveon isn't witchy enough, like, why doesn't Espeon get it? Espeon has literally had official promotional artwork and plushies as a Mismagius-Witch:
speaking of which if anyone has a free kidney LMK I want this in my life
I think the reason it lost it is pretty simple: it's not a TM anymore.
Flareon also lost the move for the same reason.
& unlike Gardevoir (learns it by Egg Move & level 1), Hatterene (egg move), & Enamorus, they passed on giving Sylveon the [pretty good] fire move by default because they want the Eevees to stick to their type lanes when it comes to level up moves. & eevee doesn't get to have fun "break the typing" egg moves.
Honestly even with the fairy typing backing it up I'm surprised they gave Sylveon the move to begin with. Especially when as you point out Espeon doesn't get to have it, so I dunno not even a case of matching how so many of the fairies, psychics, fires & ghosts learn it.
Now that said double checking all these movesets I do have my own questions like:
-Why does Eevee get to have Trailblaze & Alluring Voice? This gives all the eevees access to those moves when both seem like things that should only be given to Leafeon & Sylveon. Bite's kind of in the same boat but that's a long-standing level up move so you kind of give it a pass; but these two were brand new TMs and stick out a lot in the learnset. (Now granted Alluring Voice is a DLC TM but it does feel like...if you're going to hand out the 80 BP fairy move to everyone why NOT just let it learn Mystical Fire as an egg move)
-Flareon & Glaceon don't "learn" Bite at Level 1 like the other eeveelutions do, instead learning it at 25 like Eeevee does. Kind of weird.
-Likewise, Espeon & Sylveon learn Swift at Eevee's level instead of level 1.
--Which is double weird because the Swift level up slot is used for status/weird moves like Haze, Smog, Thunder Wave and so on. Even with dexit and such there's still plenty of Psychic & Fairy moves that would fit that kind of archetype
AND WHILE I'M HERE when GameFreak were putting together Mismagius' set for L:A did they forget it not only had Mystical Fire since ORAS, but was one of only 3 Pokemon to learn the move before the SWSH TM. It doesn't learn it at all in L:A but Drifloon's line does...and then Drifloon lost it immediately in the transition to SV despite it being a level up move so you can't even lean on the tutor aspect.
Eevee definitely feels like they need to totally rethink it's learnset. Which is something you'd THINK Dexit and the subsequent moveset resets would let them do, but apparently not.
Currently, Eevee learns Dig/Mud Slap, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Double Kick, Tailblaze, Alluring Voice, and Bite(level up). Ground, Ghost, Psychic, Fighting, Grass, Fairy, and Dark. In previous gens, it also got Iron Tail. That makes sense from the perspective of it as a small Normal-type mammal, I'd expect a learnset like that on something like Furret, but it says nothing about Eevee's evolution-focused gimmick. Exactly half the non-normal moves that Eevee learns are of types that it DOESN'T evolve into, and it only gets moves for half it's evolutions.
Eevee IMO should either:
Get exclusively normal-type moves. This means that when it evolves, it's evolution is the purest expression of that type's ability to interact with the world. If we're doing that, we should PROBABLY rework the existing evos design/stats so that they fit with how that type is supposed to function(bulky powder Leafeon, fast offensive Flareon).
Get decent moves of all types it does not evolve into. This lets Eeveeloutions NOT use each other's moves(which I would preserve in the evo's movesets, goodbye Ice Beam Vaporeon or Mystical Fire Sylveon), but would allow some moveset diversity despite that and emphasize the STAB as the thing that differentiates the Eeveeloutions.
Get coverage with 60-85 power for EVERY evolution type. This means that the best moves are still limited to STAB, but Eevee gets to show signs of diversity early on before you evolve it, and the Eeveeloutions can show their relationship to each other.
Any of those options would make Eevee's gimmick a bit more obvious at all stages of it's life, which I think should be the goal. As-is, it's very generic normal early on, which is meh, and then the evolution varies wildly in how much Eevee's preexisting moveset helps.
Also, fun fact: Espeon and Umbreon used to not learn Charm, only Baby Doll Eyes. Charm was added to their lvl 1 moveset in Gen 8, because otherwise due to how the Sylveon priority worked with the new friendship mechanics, it would be impossible to have Charm on an Espeon/Umbreon.
Currently, Eevee learns Dig/Mud Slap, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Double Kick, Tailblaze, Alluring Voice, and Bite(level up). Ground, Ghost, Psychic, Fighting, Grass, Fairy, and Dark. In previous gens, it also got Iron Tail. That makes sense from the perspective of it as a small Normal-type mammal, I'd expect a learnset like that on something like Furret, but it says nothing about Eevee's evolution-focused gimmick. Exactly half the non-normal moves that Eevee learns are of types that it DOESN'T evolve into, and it only gets moves for half it's evolutions.
Eevee IMO should either:
Get exclusively normal-type moves. This means that when it evolves, it's evolution is the purest expression of that type's ability to interact with the world. If we're doing that, we should PROBABLY rework the existing evos design/stats so that they fit with how that type is supposed to function(bulky powder Leafeon, fast offensive Flareon).
Get decent moves of all types it does not evolve into. This lets Eeveeloutions NOT use each other's moves(which I would preserve in the evo's movesets, goodbye Ice Beam Vaporeon or Mystical Fire Sylveon), but would allow some moveset diversity despite that and emphasize the STAB as the thing that differentiates the Eeveeloutions.
Get coverage with 60-85 power for EVERY evolution type. This means that the best moves are still limited to STAB, but Eevee gets to show signs of diversity early on before you evolve it, and the Eeveeloutions can show their relationship to each other.
Any of those options would make Eevee's gimmick a bit more obvious at all stages of it's life, which I think should be the goal. As-is, it's very generic normal early on, which is meh, and then the evolution varies wildly in how much Eevee's preexisting moveset helps.
Also, fun fact: Espeon and Umbreon used to not learn Charm, only Baby Doll Eyes. Charm was added to their lvl 1 moveset in Gen 8, because otherwise due to how the Sylveon priority worked with the new friendship mechanics, it would be impossible to have Charm on an Espeon/Umbreon.