Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

[pika pal]

The Tapu Bulu thing moreso highlights for me the annoyance that Physical Fairy is still so limited for options because of Play Rough's flavor (ignoring momentarily the mention that it DOES fit Bulu's flavor). Like, Moonblast and Dazzling Gleam can be generic enough "emit energy/light" attacks to the point they frequently show up on non-Fairies, but Play Rough is kind of silly for any Fairy that isn't the "Cute Cuddly" half of the aesthetic, which is odd given the Fair Folk are also tricksters.

This is also to say I find some inclusions weird flavor-wise alongside exclusions: Volbeat/Illumise, Klefki, and the Grimmsnarl line don't strike me as the type to "Play rough" with an opponent (which almost sounds more like Bewear where it obliviously breaks spines by hugging).

 

[R_N]

The Tapu Bulu thing moreso highlights for me the annoyance that Physical Fairy is still so limited for options because of Play Rough's flavor (ignoring momentarily the mention that it DOES fit Bulu's flavor). Like, Moonblast and Dazzling Gleam can be generic enough "emit energy/light" attacks to the point they frequently show up on non-Fairies, but Play Rough is kind of silly for any Fairy that isn't the "Cute Cuddly" half of the aesthetic, which is odd given the Fair Folk are also tricksters.

This is also to say I find some inclusions weird flavor-wise alongside exclusions: Volbeat/Illumise, Klefki, and the Grimmsnarl line don't strike me as the type to "Play rough" with an opponent (which almost sounds more like Bewear where it obliviously breaks spines by hugging).

I don't think Play Rough's (or "Frolic") flavor is limiting at all, honestly.

In terms of fairy types the majority of physical fairies get it regardless of their aesthetics. In terms of non-fairies, I dunno I am looking through this list and there's quite the spread of things here even considering the aesthetic of "this is an animal that probably is jovial enough to frolic either in canon or in real life".

As far as these kind of attacks go, a lot of moves would kill for this kind of spread





Having more physical ones would be nice though, yes. Literally just one early game one would be nice because we're at this point where you get this 90 BP move either around mid-late game (which matches its power range but means your physical attacking fairies just have no real stab) OR you get it bizarrely early (so you've got this comically strong move at a point where most of your options are ~60-ish). Which, Pokemon is an easy game for babies so it doesn't really move the dial either way but it sure is goofy.

 

[Cool Baton]

Why can Nuzleaf learn Hyper Beam? Usually only final stage evolutions can learn that. I know there's exceptions like if they're part of a pseudo legendary line. But I see no reason why Nuzleaf can. Lombre, its counterpart, can't learn it. Nuzleaf can't learn Giga Impact though.

Kirlia learns it too in Gen 3, Munchlax starting Gen 4, Klinklang in Gen 5 (and Klink, despite that line not being pseudolegendary), and so on. I couldn't answer why Nuzleaf and Kirlia of all Pokemon were the first exceptions, but they def started relaxing the "fully-evolved or pseudo-legend" rule for Hyper Beam pretty early on.

 

[AztecCroc]

Kirlia learns it too in Gen 3, Munchlax starting Gen 4, Klinklang in Gen 5 (and Klink, despite that line not being pseudolegendary), and so on. I couldn't answer why Nuzleaf and Kirlia of all Pokemon were the first exceptions, but they def started relaxing the "fully-evolved or pseudo-legend" rule for Hyper Beam pretty early on.

Kirlia doesn't learn it in gen 3, it learns it in gen 9. Munchlax only learns it in LA.

 

[Cool Baton]

Kirlia doesn't learn it in gen 3, it learns it in gen 9. Munchlax only learns it in LA.

Oh my bad, I misread the wiki charts - so not quite as early as I thought.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Noticed earlier that Flareon is the only Eevee family member to learn Endeavour. Wonder why that is. I can see why it's not a particularly fitting move for Espeon or Sylveon but I don't see why, say, Jolteon, Leafeon, and Umbreon couldn't learn it also.

 

[pika pal]

Noticed earlier that Flareon is the only Eevee family member to learn Endeavour. Wonder why that is. I can see why it's not a particularly fitting move for Espeon or Sylveon but I don't see why, say, Jolteon, Leafeon, and Umbreon couldn't learn it also.

Are you talking in terms of flavor or playstyle? Because I agree on the latter that Umbreon is an odd-exclusion (high defense, low HP support tank), but Jolteon I could follow since the Fast-Attacker archetype in Pokemon typically isn't bulky enough to take a shot and survive to do that kind of retaliation effectively.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Are you talking in terms of flavor or playstyle? Because I agree on the latter that Umbreon is an odd-exclusion (high defense, low HP support tank), but Jolteon I could follow since the Fast-Attacker archetype in Pokemon typically isn't bulky enough to take a shot and survive to do that kind of retaliation effectively.

Flavour mainly; even leaving aside TM and tutor compatibility, lots of fast, offensive-inclined and not massively bulky Pokemon learn Endeavour naturally (Raticate, Beedrill, Dodrio, Swellow, Crawdaunt, Rampardos, Hawlucha, Salazzle).

It's not a move that's given much description in terms of how it's actually performed, but the word "endeavour" suggests a considerable amount of exertion and striving rooted in effort, spirit, and determination, which Jolteon - being a swift-moving canine-looking creature noted to have strong changes of mood - definitely evokes. It's more physical in nature (in concept if not literally) and a bit of an undignified move for creatures as composed as Espeon or Sylveon, but I could see Leafeon or Umbreon as capable of pulling it off.

 

[TailGlowVM]

Following Indeedee-F getting Trick Room as a result of a bug that became real, these are the only Psychic-types that do not learn Trick Room (and don't only get Psychic-typing by a forme change, regional variant or paradox and do learn universal TMs):



It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).

 

[R_N]

Following Indeedee-F getting Trick Room as a result of a bug that became real, these are the only Psychic-types that do not learn Trick Room (and don't only get Psychic-typing by a forme change, regional variant or paradox and do learn universal TMs):



It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).

Munkidori in particular feels like Trick Room is right up its alley. Its entire thing is being a jerk that toys with people with psychic power.

 

[Hugin]

Following Indeedee-F getting Trick Room as a result of a bug that became real, these are the only Psychic-types that do not learn Trick Room (and don't only get Psychic-typing by a forme change, regional variant or paradox and do learn universal TMs):



It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).

Metagross I assume is a balance choice. Because you're right, it should learn the move, psychic computer reversing speed for the area fits better than a lot of psychics that can do it already. Even though 70 speed is too fast for reliable Trick Room usage, it wouldn't surprise me if GF was paranoid about giving the Steel/Psychic Pseudolegend an additional tool to use.

 

[WinterArcanine]

Noticed earlier that Flareon is the only Eevee family member to learn Endeavour. Wonder why that is. I can see why it's not a particularly fitting move for Espeon or Sylveon but I don't see why, say, Jolteon, Leafeon, and Umbreon couldn't learn it also.

Similarily, it's the only eeveelution to learn Scary Face.....for some reason. It even has it as a level up move.

...I'm not sure how this is supposed to be scary

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Similarily, it's the only eeveelution to learn Scary Face.....for some reason. It even has it as a level up move.

View attachment 675795
...I'm not sure how this is supposed to be scary

Idk, that one I can rationalise because the Pokedex repeatedly emphasises how much of an absolute weapon Flareon is.


Stadium dex entry: Its fiery breath reaches close to 3,000 degrees. Its body temperature exceeds 1,650 degrees when storing fire inside.

FireRed dex entry: It has a flame bag inside its body. After inhaling deeply, it blows out flames of nearly 3,100 degrees Fahrenheit.

Sun dex entry: When it catches prey or finds berries, it breathes fire on them until they're well done, and then it gobbles them up.

Ultra Sun dex entry: If it inhales deeply, that's a sign it's about to attack. Prepare to be hit by flames of over 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit!


So if I was facing down a Flareon and it made a scary face to me, I think I could definitely find that frightening.

 

[pika pal]

So something that popped up and mildly annoys me looking at Zacian and Zamazenta's level up moves as of Gen 9. Elected for here because I go way too in-depth with this despite a lot of wishlisting/theorizing that follows.

Gen 8 they're reasonable enough, pretty standard "mostly shared/counterpart" moves as duos/trios do (Metal Burst vs Sacred Sword for example as non-STAB Level 1 moves based on Defense/Offense).

In Gen 9, one of their shared moves (Level 44 Laser Focus) was cut due to the move not being ported forward. Zacian gained Noble Roar... but Zamazenta just moved Metal Burst up with no Level 1 Replacement, now meaning it doesn't have a counterpart to one of Zacian's most flavorful moves in Sacred Sword and a mismatched count for Level 1 pool.

Where this becomes oddity for me is that they had options to fit into both spots, whether as alternative replacement for 44 or to move Metal Burst and then change the Level 1 pool.

Sacred Sword could be matched by Body Press (Fighting type DEF-based move again) which it gained from TM anyway, Play Rough (STAB of the other's type that aids with Stat changes against their specialty in Attacker-ignores-DEF or Defender-lowers-ATK), or even something like Psyshield Bash (DEF stat change interaction with a Non-STAB move that hits one of their Primary-type's resistances for SE damage).

Meanwhile Noble Roar could be matched with Screech (Sound based move to cripple the opponent in the user's role stats), Bulk Up (Shoring up a weak spot with a 2 stat change, debuff opponent vs buffing self), or even something reaching like King's Shield (besides in the name, it's a Gen 6 former-signature status move that similarly reduces the opponent's offense), the last of which could stretch to Sacred Sword despite no damage given the obvious Sword/Shield theming Aegislash drew on while having both moves and the series having precedent for keeping old-sigs around even if the original user is Dexited (Chesnaught missed Galar but Maractus and Togedemaru kept the move, similar with Accelgor and Water Shuriken).

It's just such an odd and sloppy oversight to me because these two are a Mascot Legendary duo, which out of all the themed-mon-grouping cases I would have expected to be the one they pay the most attention to parallels/branding, however in-effective (see Zamazenta's nerfs to "match" Zacian's despite a massive disparity in how they played in Singles OR Doubles)

 

[Celever]

So something that popped up and mildly annoys me looking at Zacian and Zamazenta's level up moves as of Gen 9. Elected for here because I go way too in-depth with this despite a lot of wishlisting/theorizing that follows.

Gen 8 they're reasonable enough, pretty standard "mostly shared/counterpart" moves as duos/trios do (Metal Burst vs Sacred Sword for example as non-STAB Level 1 moves based on Defense/Offense).

In Gen 9, one of their shared moves (Level 44 Laser Focus) was cut due to the move not being ported forward. Zacian gained Noble Roar... but Zamazenta just moved Metal Burst up with no Level 1 Replacement, now meaning it doesn't have a counterpart to one of Zacian's most flavorful moves in Sacred Sword and a mismatched count for Level 1 pool.

Where this becomes oddity for me is that they had options to fit into both spots, whether as alternative replacement for 44 or to move Metal Burst and then change the Level 1 pool.

Sacred Sword could be matched by Body Press (Fighting type DEF-based move again) which it gained from TM anyway, Play Rough (STAB of the other's type that aids with Stat changes against their specialty in Attacker-ignores-DEF or Defender-lowers-ATK), or even something like Psyshield Bash (DEF stat change interaction with a Non-STAB move that hits one of their Primary-type's resistances for SE damage).

Meanwhile Noble Roar could be matched with Screech (Sound based move to cripple the opponent in the user's role stats), Bulk Up (Shoring up a weak spot with a 2 stat change, debuff opponent vs buffing self), or even something reaching like King's Shield (besides in the name, it's a Gen 6 former-signature status move that similarly reduces the opponent's offense), the last of which could stretch to Sacred Sword despite no damage given the obvious Sword/Shield theming Aegislash drew on while having both moves and the series having precedent for keeping old-sigs around even if the original user is Dexited (Chesnaught missed Galar but Maractus and Togedemaru kept the move, similar with Accelgor and Water Shuriken).

It's just such an odd and sloppy oversight to me because these two are a Mascot Legendary duo, which out of all the themed-mon-grouping cases I would have expected to be the one they pay the most attention to parallels/branding, however in-effective (see Zamazenta's nerfs to "match" Zacian's despite a massive disparity in how they played in Singles OR Doubles)

I mean I agree with everything in this post, but surely the simplest solution would have been to just, also give Zamazenta Noble Roar, if they shared Laser Focus originally. They’re still both noble dogs lol.

But Body Press by level up is clearly the optimal choice to make because that move was designed for Zamazenta in every way except giving it to it in Gen 8 lol.

 

[Rapti]

It's just such an odd and sloppy oversight to me because these two are a Mascot Legendary duo, which out of all the themed-mon-grouping cases I would have expected to be the one they pay the most attention to parallels/branding, however in-effective (see Zamazenta's nerfs to "match" Zacian's despite a massive disparity in how they played in Singles OR Doubles)

I don't think this is an oversight so much as someone in Gamefreak simply not liking Zamazenta
(they'll take Body Press from Zama's movepool by its next appearance, you can mark words)

 

[Worldie]

I don't think this is an oversight so much as someone in Gamefreak simply not liking Zamazenta
(they'll take Body Press from Zama's movepool by its next appearance, you can mark words)

Not even so much, it's pretty obvious they didn't give it to Zamazenta for balance reasons, probably they were expecting it to be too strong.

(And honestly, judging by its performance so far in VGC this generation, they weren't tecnically wrong)

 

[Yung Dramps]

Not even so much, it's pretty obvious they didn't give it to Zamazenta for balance reasons, probably they were expecting it to be too strong.

(And honestly, judging by its performance so far in VGC this generation, they weren't tecnically wrong)

If this was the actual reason then the entirety of Game Freak's balancing team needs to be fired for pulling this while also deeming SWSH Zacian acceptable

 

[Worldie]

If this was the actual reason then the entirety of Game Freak's balancing team needs to be fired for pulling this while also deeming SWSH Zacian acceptable

Something needed to be strong enough to deal with Calyrex

 

[R_N]

When it comes to balance, there definitely seems to be cases of things where it's less "full integrity of the game" and more "we're fine with THESE being busted in this specific way but not THESE". On a larger scale you have things like Legends or Paradoxes or whatever in comparison to regular mons or Restricteds vs non, on a smaller scale you have things like Kyurem & Black Kyurem just missing the sauce for several generations compared to the other 3 components, the Physical Tapu barely getting fairy moves while Pheromosa gets every move in the world or Zama vs Zacian

 

[Worldie]

There's also the chance they simply predicted something to be balanced by something else and it ended up not working that way, and usually it gets addressed in later generations.

It's a QA issue usually, there's only so much you can test. Maybe they thought Zacian would be fine to be kept in check by the massive prevalence of Intimidate pokemon on top of Steel not exactly being the best offensive type when there's not many fairy types around, and maybe in their testing that worked out, but Pokemon players are millions and more apt to find out ways to exploit pokemon strenght than a dozen QA or a hundred playtesters may (*expecially* if those playstesters aren't proplayers themselves).

The reason I specifically mention this scenario for the Zamazenta oddity vs Zacian is that it's kinda how it went in practice this generation. Restricteds are obviously meant to be powerful, and current gen restricted moreso since they will usually sell more than the old ones, so I would expect Zacian and Zama were designed with comparable power level in mind. While it didn't work out that well last gen, this gen Zacian is severely kept in check by the omnipresence of Intimidate pokemon (all other physical restricted can run Clear Amulet to get around that), meanwhile Zamazenta now armed with Body Press *despite the stat nerfs* dominated a significant chunk of the regulation H tournaments due to being able to completely disregard Intimidate (and in fact have a winning matchup vs Incineroar) while also providing strong team utility via Wide Guard and Coaching.

TLDR: I'm definitely convinced excluding Body Press from Zama was a deliberate balance-related choice. And not a wrong one per se. I don't think there was any favoritism at play, all 3 cover legendaries were clearly designed to be format-warping, but rather they may have overestimated Zacian's limitations in gen 8 specifically (potentially expecting it to be hurt more by the vulnerability to intimidate/burns than it really was).

 

[pika pal]

There's also the chance they simply predicted something to be balanced by something else and it ended up not working that way, and usually it gets addressed in later generations.

It's a QA issue usually, there's only so much you can test. Maybe they thought Zacian would be fine to be kept in check by the massive prevalence of Intimidate pokemon on top of Steel not exactly being the best offensive type when there's not many fairy types around, and maybe in their testing that worked out, but Pokemon players are millions and more apt to find out ways to exploit pokemon strenght than a dozen QA or a hundred playtesters may (*expecially* if those playstesters aren't proplayers themselves).

The reason I specifically mention this scenario for the Zamazenta oddity vs Zacian is that it's kinda how it went in practice this generation. Restricteds are obviously meant to be powerful, and current gen restricted moreso since they will usually sell more than the old ones, so I would expect Zacian and Zama were designed with comparable power level in mind. While it didn't work out that well last gen, this gen Zacian is severely kept in check by the omnipresence of Intimidate pokemon (all other physical restricted can run Clear Amulet to get around that), meanwhile Zamazenta now armed with Body Press *despite the stat nerfs* dominated a significant chunk of the regulation H tournaments due to being able to completely disregard Intimidate (and in fact have a winning matchup vs Incineroar) while also providing strong team utility via Wide Guard and Coaching.

TLDR: I'm definitely convinced excluding Body Press from Zama was a deliberate balance-related choice. And not a wrong one per se. I don't think there was any favoritism at play, all 3 cover legendaries were clearly designed to be format-warping, but rather they may have overestimated Zacian's limitations in gen 8 specifically (potentially expecting it to be hurt more by the vulnerability to intimidate/burns than it really was).

I think the issue with their thinking in Gen 8 if that was the thought process is that only really works if you assume Zacian plays by the same rules as every other mon: Intrepid Sword means you need Intimidate for it to be playing neutral compared to every other Physical attacker, and Steel's Mediocre coverage is more than compensated by Zacian basically punishing you for using the otherwise-game-breaking Mechanic with your Dynamax before it's beaten.

Previous Titans (if they assumed them to still have significant usage even with Zacian taking part of the pie) also heavily come down on burn users because of how offensive the Terrain and Weather styles encourage play to be, making a no-damage turn risky as a momentum sink if that's the intended counterplay to Zacian.

Gen 8 introduced quite a few Pokemon that make me think Gamefreak had only a cursory idea of what VGC was actually like when designing hot-ticket new Pokemon for it, Restricted or otherwise. Besides Zacian, let's not forget Urshifu just passively saying "no" to arguably the most important strategic move in the Doubles format, and Calyrex with two of the best offensive types as 120-130 BP Spread moves coming from either the fastest thing in the game or one of the "fastest" things under Trick Room (with Unnerve to turn off Resistance berries trying to tank one and snipe its low bulk).

 

[Worldie]

Steel's Mediocre coverage is more than compensated by Zacian basically punishing you for using the otherwise-game-breaking Mechanic with your Dynamax before it's beaten.

Tbh, I never considered that a upside, and rather a balancing for "This pokemon cannot Dynamax". It doesn't strictly punish you for Dynamaxing in fact: the move simply does same relative % damage whenever you're maxed or not.

It is possible that they also probably "undersold" how not dynamaxing would be a downside for a offensive pokemon like Zacian (whereas a more defensive one like Zamazenta would likely not opt into Dynamaxing leaving it to the other restricted).

I'm not exactly saying that their thinking was *right* on the "why did they assume Zacian was fine but Zama didn't need that extra oompf", just saying there was some thinking behind it.

(as for Urshifu, it's worth mentioning how in last gen VGC it was actually not that impactful. Breaking Protect is super strong but in a meta where the core gimmick disregards protect anyway it wasnt really that impressive on a mid speed sweeper. It only became a massive issue this generation where you no longer have Dynamax to let you tank those Urshifu hits, made even worse by Tera making those hit sting even harder)

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

We all know Mawile has a weirdly expansive movepool, particularly when it comes to elemental attacks, but what I find strange are some of the specific patterns (or lack thereof), which I've tried to illustrate in this table:

Move Sub-category
"___ Punch"	✘
"___ Fang"
90/100 Beam			✘
110 Attack		✘	✘
Random Utility Attack

Okay so Mawile learns Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, but not Fire Punch. It does learn all three Fangs, though. It learns Flamethrower and Ice Beam, but not Thunderbolt, and it learns Fire Blast, but not Blizzard or Thunder. It also learns exactly one random utility move of each type (Icy Wind, Charge Beam, and Incinerate.

The omissions are so weird to me! With the exception of the last category (which isn't really a thing), every subtype of move has a different set of compatibilities with respect to Mawile. I can't help but respect how arbitrary it all is.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

We all know Mawile has a weirdly expansive movepool, particularly when it comes to elemental attacks, but what I find strange are some of the specific patterns (or lack thereof), which I've tried to illustrate in this table:

Move Sub-category
"___ Punch"	✘
"___ Fang"
90/100 Beam			✘
110 Attack		✘	✘
Random Utility Attack

Okay so Mawile learns Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, but not Fire Punch. It does learn all three Fangs, though. It learns Flamethrower and Ice Beam, but not Thunderbolt, and it learns Fire Blast, but not Blizzard or Thunder. It also learns exactly one random utility move of each type (Icy Wind, Charge Beam, and Incinerate.

The omissions are so weird to me! With the exception of the last category (which isn't really a thing), every subtype of move has a different set of compatibilities with respect to Mawile. I can't help but respect how arbitrary it all is.

I guess fire attacks (and Ice Beam) come from Mawile's jaws - it's how the Adventures manga portrays it, at least - but it's not capable of generating a fiery punch.

As a Steel-type generating electricity and making itself colder aren't so unthinkable, so I guess that explains the punches. Lots of things get Icy Wind so that stands out less; Charge Beam is a little weirder, but I suppose it makes sense as it's a weaker, less aggressive version of Thunderbolt. I'm reminded of the way Reuniclus gets Thunder but not Thunderbolt and vice versa for Gothitelle.