Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

Interesting how many species weren't able to learn Sludge Bomb via TM in Gen II before Game Freak relented and decided they could in Gen III. The Bulbasaur line, Gastly line, Zubat line, Bellossom, and Octillery all initially didn't get it. Bellossom is a curious case as it's not really a Pokemon suited to "hurling unsanitary sludge" at the foe and literally drops the Poison aspect of its pre-evolution, but Poison moves are a generic Grass thing and they tend to have shitty coverage so whatever.

Even in later gens this happens once or twice. Sandygast and Sneasler are later examples of Pokemon who didn't get it at first but then later did - Sandygast apparently just to match its evolution - as are Zorua and Zoroark (Zoroark, of course, got it as an event move first).
 
Well, I'm pleased that since my last visit to this thread that amongst other changes, Metagross got Heavy Slam, Toxicroak Close Combat (let's be real that one was an oversight), Weezing Gunk Shot and Zamazenta Body Press. I've got one or two questions about some of the new S/V changes though:

:sv/dugtrio: :sv/dugtrio-alola: How do these two use Throat Chop with no hands or appendages?

:sv/zangoose: got Aura Sphere? Why?

:sv/iron_jugulis: Lack of Nasty Plot is a crime, same for Enamorus who's described as "it descends upon those who treat any form of life with disrespect and metes out wrathful, ruthless punishment."

:sv/arbok: :sv/sandaconda: :sv/seviper: If Sceptile, Orthworm and Cyclizar get Shed Tail, why not these reptiles? Obviously you need more than a tail for the move, but snakes shed their skin, and they even have Shed Skin for an ability. (no i'm not demanding shed tail for the dratini line)

:sv/iron_leaves: I don't see why Iron Leaves should get Coaching, a move usually reserved for Fighting-types, and Iron Boulder/Iron Crown don't, alongside three of the four Paradoxes that actually are Fighting-type not learning it.

:sv/iron_boulder: Interestingly, Iron Boulder is the only Rock-type (besides ones that gain the type through a forme change) that doesn't learn Stealth Rock. The Toedscool line and Ursaluna are the only Ground-types that didn't get access to it in S/V as well, so it will be interesting to see if Diggersby and Zygarde get Stealth Rock next time they're in a main game.

I also think that alongside the most-definitely balance-minded Toxic/Knock Off/Scald curbing, the dropping of very specific Pokemon from other old TM compatibility feels random (see for instance: why did only Blastoise and Tentacruel lose Waterfall? Jolteon and Zapdos losing Charge Beam?) but that could go on forever. The one exception to me besides the aforementioned big three is Dual Wingbeat Dragonite, which I suspect was based on the popularity of Tera Normal Extreme Speed sets, but the rest of the losses I can find aren't even close to competitively viable.
 
TailGlowVM said:
I also think that alongside the most-definitely balance-minded Toxic/Knock Off/Scald curbing, the dropping of very specific Pokemon from other old TM compatibility feels random (see for instance: why did only Blastoise and Tentacruel lose Waterfall? Jolteon and Zapdos losing Charge Beam?) but that could go on forever. The one exception to me besides the aforementioned big three is Dual Wingbeat Dragonite, which I suspect was based on the popularity of Tera Normal Extreme Speed sets, but the rest of the losses I can find aren't even close to competitively viable.
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I know we could go on forever but wow the Charge Beam one in particular really is bizarre.
Like Jolteon & Zapdos I...guess, if I squint, I can see it. Like oh, we don't want the fast & strong electric type to get it anymore. we don't want the other strong electric type to get it either. Same with Mewtwo, maybe?
Weird, not like anyone was really using the move, but. Sure. I guess. I can see the shape of a decision

but Wigglytuff? Chansey? The Drifblim line??? Meloetta & Hoopa had better things to do and are banned anyway, why bother....
Dunsparce lost it and its like, you already let it keep Calm Mind, I think any special attacking Dudunsparce spamming Boomburst & hurricane are just going to use that.
 
TailGlowVM said:
How do these two use Throat Chop with no hands or appendages?
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Doesn't require limbs, its Japanese name is Hell Thrust.
TailGlowVM said:
Zangoose got Aura Sphere? Why?
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Zangoose has always been kind of Fighting adjacent, like Darmanitan.
TailGlowVM said:
Lack of Nasty Plot is a crime, same for Enamorus who's described as "it descends upon those who treat any form of life with disrespect and metes out wrathful, ruthless punishment."
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Enamorus is a nature protector, it's the same reason Zygarde doesn't when it's also described like that.
TailGlowVM said:
If Sceptile, Orthworm and Cyclizar get Shed Tail, why not these reptiles? Obviously you need more than a tail for the move, but snakes shed their skin, and they even have Shed Skin for an ability. (no i'm not demanding shed tail for the dratini line)
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Regrowing their tail is not a thing snakes can do. Mega Sceptile meanwhile already had that as an explicit part of its lore and animations.
 
Orthworm is more because of its namesake worm, which is a simple enough organism that they can regenerate proportionally large segments of their body being lost (apparently some could theoretically regenerate a new worm if bisected but that is only a theory rather than observed at this point).

Shedding skin is not the same as what Shed Tail depicts, which is leaving a hardy piece of Biomass large enough to absorb an impact or hit. I don't think Snakes or shedding reptiles can shed their skin as a defense mechanism (more a growth/hygiene necessity), but even in theory they idea would be to slip out of it vs Shed Tail species giving up the tail to escape a hard grasp by a predator.
 
TailGlowVM said:
Jolteon and Zapdos losing Charge Beam?)
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I actually had a theory a while back that Jolteon losing Charge Beam was a flat-out mix-up.
  • Jolteon is the only Eeveelution in ScVi to get False Swipe, despite all of them being hypothetically capable of clawing and scratching at things.
  • Jolteon has never had False Swipe before.
  • False Swipe is TM57 in Paldea.
  • In all other games besides Let's Go and SwSh, TM57 was Charge Beam instead.
  • Jolteon only lost Charge Beam, an Electric move that makes perfect sense for it to learn, in the same gen that it gained False Swipe.
I'm, like, fairly sure that someone wasn't paying attention when they were coding that moveset, and gave it False Swipe rather than Charge Beam. Maybe they were looking at an old list of TM moves for reference or something, or maybe it's just an easy slip for however that gets coded - I'm not a programmer so I can't really say. But it's too big a coincidence IMO.
 
Cool Baton said:
I actually had a theory a while back that Jolteon losing Charge Beam was a flat-out mix-up.
  • Jolteon is the only Eeveelution in ScVi to get False Swipe, despite all of them being hypothetically capable of clawing and scratching at things.
  • Jolteon has never had False Swipe before.
  • False Swipe is TM57 in Paldea.
  • In all other games besides Let's Go and SwSh, TM57 was Charge Beam instead.
  • Jolteon only lost Charge Beam, an Electric move that makes perfect sense for it to learn, in the same gen that it gained False Swipe.
I'm, like, fairly sure that someone wasn't paying attention when they were coding that moveset, and gave it False Swipe rather than Charge Beam. Maybe they were looking at an old list of TM moves for reference or something, or maybe it's just an easy slip for however that gets coded - I'm not a programmer so I can't really say. But it's too big a coincidence IMO.
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That's a good theory and not the first time this has happened considering that time Elgyem/Beheeyem got Steel Wing in Gen 6 likely because it was TM 51, which was Ally Switch in Gen 5.
 
Cool Baton said:
I actually had a theory a while back that Jolteon losing Charge Beam was a flat-out mix-up.
  • Jolteon is the only Eeveelution in ScVi to get False Swipe, despite all of them being hypothetically capable of clawing and scratching at things.
  • Jolteon has never had False Swipe before.
  • False Swipe is TM57 in Paldea.
  • In all other games besides Let's Go and SwSh, TM57 was Charge Beam instead.
  • Jolteon only lost Charge Beam, an Electric move that makes perfect sense for it to learn, in the same gen that it gained False Swipe.
I'm, like, fairly sure that someone wasn't paying attention when they were coding that moveset, and gave it False Swipe rather than Charge Beam. Maybe they were looking at an old list of TM moves for reference or something, or maybe it's just an easy slip for however that gets coded - I'm not a programmer so I can't really say. But it's too big a coincidence IMO.
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I'll note specifically that Leafeon, which gets Arial Ace, Leaf Blade, Swords Dance, and X-Scissor, does not get False Swipe. Jolteon which has no Slashing/Cutting theming does. I think you're right that it's an error, because otherwise that makes no sense.
 
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is how Staraptor gets Struggle Bug as a TM. The only other non-bug to get the move is Mew, who learns all TMs, and the adjacent TMs are Acrobatics, which it does learn, and Psybeam.

Also why does Coballion get Volt Switch? It doesn't really have much to do with Electricity as a whole, the only other two Electric moves it can learn are Thunder Wave and Magnet Rise
 
Ironically, I think Close Combat makes more sense than most of the Fighting moves it does have access to, because I can imagine it using its head, legs, and tail in a scrappy, close-quarters melee.

Generally, I find it weird that Rampardos learns a lot of punching and arm-based attacks, given its design and overall concept. It's a good example of how stats and movepool have to support each other to make sense, because it feels right that Rampardos has such a high Attack stat for its charging attacks and head-based moves, but it feels wrong that, say, its Ice Punch hits so much harder than Hitmonchan's. As I've said often in this thread, I think movepool logic should ask whether a Pokemon would use that move to attack, not just if it could physically execute it.
 
Rampardos isn't really a brawler, though. It punching stuff and using body-based attacks like Iron Tail kind of makes sense even though it's repeatedly stated to use its head as its primary mode of attack. I'd envisage its punches as being more akin to a haymaker than a series of jabs - it's not so far from ramming your head into something to ramming your arm/fist/tail into something.

Where it personally doesn't quite work for me is in moves like Focus Punch (lack of focus =/= lack of intelligence, but it's an overly precision-based move for a Pokemon characterised as having an underdeveloped brain) and in several of the status moves it learns like Pain Split and Spite (again, oddly strategic moves for such a blunt instrument).
 
QuentinQuonce said:
Where it personally doesn't quite work for me is in moves like Focus Punch (lack of focus =/= lack of intelligence, but it's an overly precision-based move for a Pokemon characterised as having an underdeveloped brain) and in several of the status moves it learns like Pain Split and Spite (again, oddly strategic moves for such a blunt instrument).
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Idk I think a move where the user's like "I have to focus all my mental energy on this one action and if anything disrupts me then I become completely immobilised" can quite easily be stupid-coded. It's only really a strategic move from the trainer's perspective imo.
QuentinQuonce said:
it's not so far from ramming your head into something to ramming your arm/fist/tail into something.
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Oooooh I completely disagree haha, but I suppose a lot of Pokemon's movepools would make more sense with this perspective.
 
Girlhero said:
I find it weird that Teddiursa, a cute small bear, can learn Close Combat, but Rampardos, a Pokemon known to like fighting can't.
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Nahhh, Teddiursa has always been ready to throw hands. In Gen 2, it already had Thrash and Fury Swipes by level-up, then viciously-coded moves like Faint Attack and Fury Cutter by TM. It also has learned Fighting moves by TM from the beginning (Rock Smash and DynamicPunch) as well as all the elemental punches. There's also nothing in its game Dex entires to suggest it doesn't like fighting, aside from it taking a sneaky approach to stealing Combee honey, but then I think it's just logical that it doesn't want to deal with an entire swarm of the things.

As for Rampardos, I think other people have spoken to the logic of skipping Close Combat for it more than I can.
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
Idk I think a move where the user's like "I have to focus all my mental energy on this one action and if anything disrupts me then I become completely immobilised" can quite easily be stupid-coded. It's only really a strategic move from the trainer's perspective imo.
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That's true enough. I suppose it's quite similar to the general characterisation of Black Belts the player meets (who in the Hoenn and Sinnoh games are very often portrayed as figures of fun) that are often shown to go to hilariously extreme lengths for their training - there's that one guy in Emerald who mentions having trained in solitude in the mountains for 30 years to perfect a single dance move, and another in the Veilstone Gym who puts his loss down to "not having eaten enough pizza".
 
Tapu Bulu not learning Play Rough even by TR is still baffling, especially since it fits Bulu’s nature described in the Alola Games. Some say it might be for balance, but Bulu was always the least used of the 4 Tapus in VGC, and besides, giving Play Rough Bulu would actually give it a reason to use it over Rillaboom in VGC. Heck, with the Glide nerf, I don’t think giving Grassy Glide is that preposterous either.

#MakeBuluGreatAgain!
 
DreamPrince said:
Tapu Bulu not learning Play Rough even by TR is still baffling, especially since it fits Bulu’s nature described in the Alola Games. Some say it might be for balance, but Bulu was always the least used of the 4 Tapus in VGC, and besides, giving Play Rough Bulu would actually give it a reason to use it over Rillaboom in VGC. Heck, with the Glide nerf, I don’t think giving Grassy Glide is that preposterous either.

#MakeBuluGreatAgain!
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It is odd that it never got Play Rough, though I don't think it really would have been that much of a buff. Grass and Fairy have very poor offensive synergy, and between Bulu's monstrously powerful Grass attacks and ample coverage to hit Grass resists, Play Rough wouldn't really have much of a place.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
It is odd that it never got Play Rough, though I don't think it really would have been that much of a buff. Grass and Fairy have very poor offensive synergy, and between Bulu's monstrously powerful Grass attacks and ample coverage to hit Grass resists, Play Rough wouldn't really have much of a place.
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Disagree, it would allow it hit Dragon types super effectively, which would resist Grass moves, along with being STAB, giving a reason to use it.
 
AztecCroc said:
Stab Play Rough is a lot stronger than non-Stab Rock Slide or Stone Edge.
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True against the likes of Dragonite and Mandibuzz, but Stone Edge is stronger against most other Flying-types, as well as Bug- and especially Fire-types.

Like, Play Rough would still be a buff. More options is more options. I just don't think it would be nearly as impactful a buff as most people seem to think. Keep in mind Bulu commonly runs both Wood Hammer and Horn Leech because its Grass power is just that strong. What's it gonna value more, coverage against a wide variety of Grass resists, or slightly stronger coverage against very specific Grass resists? Fighting, Rock, and Ground coverage are all really hard to pass up on.
 
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I've sometimes wondered if they designed Koko and Bulu as mono-Grass and Electric originally, then thought that Fairy would be a nice secondary typing on Lele and Fini and just tacked it onto the other two for consistency. (There is also datamined code for a scrapped Aqua Terrain in Sun and Moon code, which would make sense on Fini if they intended the Tapus to be monotyped to begin with.)

This may explain why the two didn't learn Moonblast, Play Rough or any Fairy moves at all by levelling up except the Guardians' signature Nature's Madness in their debut generation. In Sword and Shield, Koko got Fairy Wind in its level-up pool giving it a third Fairy move, but Bulu still only has Dazzling Gleam and Nature's Madness.

It could also explain why they gave Tapu Koko more Attack than Special Attack when it nearly always runs a special set. If it didn't have the Fairy STAB as an advantage to special sets then a physical set might have been more appealing in order to use coverage options like Brave Bird, U-turn, Iron Head or Acrobatics.
 
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