Kirlia learns it too in Gen 3, Munchlax starting Gen 4, Klinklang in Gen 5 (and Klink, despite that line not being pseudolegendary), and so on. I couldn't answer why Nuzleaf and Kirlia of all Pokemon were the first exceptions, but they def started relaxing the "fully-evolved or pseudo-legend" rule for Hyper Beam pretty early on.
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Kirlia doesn't learn it in gen 3, it learns it in gen 9. Munchlax only learns it in LA.
Oh my bad, I misread the wiki charts - so not quite as early as I thought.
Noticed earlier that Flareon is the only Eevee family member to learn Endeavour. Wonder why that is. I can see why it's not a particularly fitting move for Espeon or Sylveon but I don't see why, say, Jolteon, Leafeon, and Umbreon couldn't learn it also.
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Are you talking in terms of flavor or playstyle? Because I agree on the latter that Umbreon is an odd-exclusion (high defense, low HP support tank), but Jolteon I could follow since the Fast-Attacker archetype in Pokemon typically isn't bulky enough to take a shot and survive to do that kind of retaliation effectively.
Flavour mainly; even leaving aside TM and tutor compatibility, lots of fast, offensive-inclined and not massively bulky Pokemon learn Endeavour naturally (Raticate, Beedrill, Dodrio, Swellow, Crawdaunt, Rampardos, Hawlucha, Salazzle).
It's not a move that's given much description in terms of how it's actually performed, but the word "endeavour" suggests a considerable amount of exertion and striving rooted in effort, spirit, and determination, which Jolteon - being a swift-moving canine-looking creature noted to have strong changes of mood - definitely evokes. It's more physical in nature (in concept if not literally) and a bit of an undignified move for creatures as composed as Espeon or Sylveon, but I could see Leafeon or Umbreon as capable of pulling it off.
Following Indeedee-F getting Trick Room as a result of a bug that became real, these are the only Psychic-types that do not learn Trick Room (and don't only get Psychic-typing by a forme change, regional variant or paradox and do learn universal TMs):
It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).
It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).
Munkidori in particular feels like Trick Room is right up its alley. Its entire thing is being a jerk that toys with people with psychic power.Following Indeedee-F getting Trick Room as a result of a bug that became real, these are the only Psychic-types that do not learn Trick Room (and don't only get Psychic-typing by a forme change, regional variant or paradox and do learn universal TMs):
It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).
Metagross I assume is a balance choice. Because you're right, it should learn the move, psychic computer reversing speed for the area fits better than a lot of psychics that can do it already. Even though 70 speed is too fast for reliable Trick Room usage, it wouldn't surprise me if GF was paranoid about giving the Steel/Psychic Pseudolegend an additional tool to use.Following Indeedee-F getting Trick Room as a result of a bug that became real, these are the only Psychic-types that do not learn Trick Room (and don't only get Psychic-typing by a forme change, regional variant or paradox and do learn universal TMs):
It's notable that Bruxish gets Trick Room and Veluza doesn't, and I'm also surprised Metagross doesn't learn it. You'd think a Pokemon with the intelligence of a supercomputer would be capable of working out how to twist the dimensions. Can't think of much that specifically differentiates these from other Psychics (and 'high speed' is not it given Alakazam can learn it amongst others).
Similarily, it's the only eeveelution to learn Scary Face.....for some reason. It even has it as a level up move.
...I'm not sure how this is supposed to be scary
Idk, that one I can rationalise because the Pokedex repeatedly emphasises how much of an absolute weapon Flareon is.
Stadium dex entry: Its fiery breath reaches close to 3,000 degrees. Its body temperature exceeds 1,650 degrees when storing fire inside.
FireRed dex entry: It has a flame bag inside its body. After inhaling deeply, it blows out flames of nearly 3,100 degrees Fahrenheit.
Sun dex entry: When it catches prey or finds berries, it breathes fire on them until they're well done, and then it gobbles them up.
Ultra Sun dex entry: If it inhales deeply, that's a sign it's about to attack. Prepare to be hit by flames of over 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit!
So if I was facing down a Flareon and it made a scary face to me, I think I could definitely find that frightening.
So something that popped up and mildly annoys me looking at Zacian and Zamazenta's level up moves as of Gen 9. Elected for here because I go way too in-depth with this despite a lot of wishlisting/theorizing that follows.
Gen 8 they're reasonable enough, pretty standard "mostly shared/counterpart" moves as duos/trios do (Metal Burst vs Sacred Sword for example as non-STAB Level 1 moves based on Defense/Offense).
In Gen 9, one of their shared moves (Level 44 Laser Focus) was cut due to the move not being ported forward. Zacian gained Noble Roar... but Zamazenta just moved Metal Burst up with no Level 1 Replacement, now meaning it doesn't have a counterpart to one of Zacian's most flavorful moves in Sacred Sword and a mismatched count for Level 1 pool.
Where this becomes oddity for me is that they had options to fit into both spots, whether as alternative replacement for 44 or to move Metal Burst and then change the Level 1 pool.
Sacred Sword could be matched by Body Press (Fighting type DEF-based move again) which it gained from TM anyway, Play Rough (STAB of the other's type that aids with Stat changes against their specialty in Attacker-ignores-DEF or Defender-lowers-ATK), or even something like Psyshield Bash (DEF stat change interaction with a Non-STAB move that hits one of their Primary-type's resistances for SE damage).
Meanwhile Noble Roar could be matched with Screech (Sound based move to cripple the opponent in the user's role stats), Bulk Up (Shoring up a weak spot with a 2 stat change, debuff opponent vs buffing self), or even something reaching like King's Shield (besides in the name, it's a Gen 6 former-signature status move that similarly reduces the opponent's offense), the last of which could stretch to Sacred Sword despite no damage given the obvious Sword/Shield theming Aegislash drew on while having both moves and the series having precedent for keeping old-sigs around even if the original user is Dexited (Chesnaught missed Galar but Maractus and Togedemaru kept the move, similar with Accelgor and Water Shuriken).
It's just such an odd and sloppy oversight to me because these two are a Mascot Legendary duo, which out of all the themed-mon-grouping cases I would have expected to be the one they pay the most attention to parallels/branding, however in-effective (see Zamazenta's nerfs to "match" Zacian's despite a massive disparity in how they played in Singles OR Doubles)
Gen 8 they're reasonable enough, pretty standard "mostly shared/counterpart" moves as duos/trios do (Metal Burst vs Sacred Sword for example as non-STAB Level 1 moves based on Defense/Offense).
In Gen 9, one of their shared moves (Level 44 Laser Focus) was cut due to the move not being ported forward. Zacian gained Noble Roar... but Zamazenta just moved Metal Burst up with no Level 1 Replacement, now meaning it doesn't have a counterpart to one of Zacian's most flavorful moves in Sacred Sword and a mismatched count for Level 1 pool.
Where this becomes oddity for me is that they had options to fit into both spots, whether as alternative replacement for 44 or to move Metal Burst and then change the Level 1 pool.
Sacred Sword could be matched by Body Press (Fighting type DEF-based move again) which it gained from TM anyway, Play Rough (STAB of the other's type that aids with Stat changes against their specialty in Attacker-ignores-DEF or Defender-lowers-ATK), or even something like Psyshield Bash (DEF stat change interaction with a Non-STAB move that hits one of their Primary-type's resistances for SE damage).
Meanwhile Noble Roar could be matched with Screech (Sound based move to cripple the opponent in the user's role stats), Bulk Up (Shoring up a weak spot with a 2 stat change, debuff opponent vs buffing self), or even something reaching like King's Shield (besides in the name, it's a Gen 6 former-signature status move that similarly reduces the opponent's offense), the last of which could stretch to Sacred Sword despite no damage given the obvious Sword/Shield theming Aegislash drew on while having both moves and the series having precedent for keeping old-sigs around even if the original user is Dexited (Chesnaught missed Galar but Maractus and Togedemaru kept the move, similar with Accelgor and Water Shuriken).
It's just such an odd and sloppy oversight to me because these two are a Mascot Legendary duo, which out of all the themed-mon-grouping cases I would have expected to be the one they pay the most attention to parallels/branding, however in-effective (see Zamazenta's nerfs to "match" Zacian's despite a massive disparity in how they played in Singles OR Doubles)
I mean I agree with everything in this post, but surely the simplest solution would have been to just, also give Zamazenta Noble Roar, if they shared Laser Focus originally. They’re still both noble dogs lol.
But Body Press by level up is clearly the optimal choice to make because that move was designed for Zamazenta in every way except giving it to it in Gen 8 lol.
I don't think this is an oversight so much as someone in Gamefreak simply not liking Zamazenta
(they'll take Body Press from Zama's movepool by its next appearance, you can mark words)
Not even so much, it's pretty obvious they didn't give it to Zamazenta for balance reasons, probably they were expecting it to be too strong.
(And honestly, judging by its performance so far in VGC this generation, they weren't tecnically wrong)
If this was the actual reason then the entirety of Game Freak's balancing team needs to be fired for pulling this while also deeming SWSH Zacian acceptable
Something needed to be strong enough to deal with Calyrex
When it comes to balance, there definitely seems to be cases of things where it's less "full integrity of the game" and more "we're fine with THESE being busted in this specific way but not THESE". On a larger scale you have things like Legends or Paradoxes or whatever in comparison to regular mons or Restricteds vs non, on a smaller scale you have things like Kyurem & Black Kyurem just missing the sauce for several generations compared to the other 3 components, the Physical Tapu barely getting fairy moves while Pheromosa gets every move in the world or Zama vs Zacian
There's also the chance they simply predicted something to be balanced by something else and it ended up not working that way, and usually it gets addressed in later generations.
It's a QA issue usually, there's only so much you can test. Maybe they thought Zacian would be fine to be kept in check by the massive prevalence of Intimidate pokemon on top of Steel not exactly being the best offensive type when there's not many fairy types around, and maybe in their testing that worked out, but Pokemon players are millions and more apt to find out ways to exploit pokemon strenght than a dozen QA or a hundred playtesters may (*expecially* if those playstesters aren't proplayers themselves).
The reason I specifically mention this scenario for the Zamazenta oddity vs Zacian is that it's kinda how it went in practice this generation. Restricteds are obviously meant to be powerful, and current gen restricted moreso since they will usually sell more than the old ones, so I would expect Zacian and Zama were designed with comparable power level in mind. While it didn't work out that well last gen, this gen Zacian is severely kept in check by the omnipresence of Intimidate pokemon (all other physical restricted can run Clear Amulet to get around that), meanwhile Zamazenta now armed with Body Press *despite the stat nerfs* dominated a significant chunk of the regulation H tournaments due to being able to completely disregard Intimidate (and in fact have a winning matchup vs Incineroar) while also providing strong team utility via Wide Guard and Coaching.
TLDR: I'm definitely convinced excluding Body Press from Zama was a deliberate balance-related choice. And not a wrong one per se. I don't think there was any favoritism at play, all 3 cover legendaries were clearly designed to be format-warping, but rather they may have overestimated Zacian's limitations in gen 8 specifically (potentially expecting it to be hurt more by the vulnerability to intimidate/burns than it really was).
It's a QA issue usually, there's only so much you can test. Maybe they thought Zacian would be fine to be kept in check by the massive prevalence of Intimidate pokemon on top of Steel not exactly being the best offensive type when there's not many fairy types around, and maybe in their testing that worked out, but Pokemon players are millions and more apt to find out ways to exploit pokemon strenght than a dozen QA or a hundred playtesters may (*expecially* if those playstesters aren't proplayers themselves).
The reason I specifically mention this scenario for the Zamazenta oddity vs Zacian is that it's kinda how it went in practice this generation. Restricteds are obviously meant to be powerful, and current gen restricted moreso since they will usually sell more than the old ones, so I would expect Zacian and Zama were designed with comparable power level in mind. While it didn't work out that well last gen, this gen Zacian is severely kept in check by the omnipresence of Intimidate pokemon (all other physical restricted can run Clear Amulet to get around that), meanwhile Zamazenta now armed with Body Press *despite the stat nerfs* dominated a significant chunk of the regulation H tournaments due to being able to completely disregard Intimidate (and in fact have a winning matchup vs Incineroar) while also providing strong team utility via Wide Guard and Coaching.
TLDR: I'm definitely convinced excluding Body Press from Zama was a deliberate balance-related choice. And not a wrong one per se. I don't think there was any favoritism at play, all 3 cover legendaries were clearly designed to be format-warping, but rather they may have overestimated Zacian's limitations in gen 8 specifically (potentially expecting it to be hurt more by the vulnerability to intimidate/burns than it really was).
I think the issue with their thinking in Gen 8 if that was the thought process is that only really works if you assume Zacian plays by the same rules as every other mon: Intrepid Sword means you need Intimidate for it to be playing neutral compared to every other Physical attacker, and Steel's Mediocre coverage is more than compensated by Zacian basically punishing you for using the otherwise-game-breaking Mechanic with your Dynamax before it's beaten.
Previous Titans (if they assumed them to still have significant usage even with Zacian taking part of the pie) also heavily come down on burn users because of how offensive the Terrain and Weather styles encourage play to be, making a no-damage turn risky as a momentum sink if that's the intended counterplay to Zacian.
Gen 8 introduced quite a few Pokemon that make me think Gamefreak had only a cursory idea of what VGC was actually like when designing hot-ticket new Pokemon for it, Restricted or otherwise. Besides Zacian, let's not forget Urshifu just passively saying "no" to arguably the most important strategic move in the Doubles format, and Calyrex with two of the best offensive types as 120-130 BP Spread moves coming from either the fastest thing in the game or one of the "fastest" things under Trick Room (with Unnerve to turn off Resistance berries trying to tank one and snipe its low bulk).
Tbh, I never considered that a upside, and rather a balancing for "This pokemon cannot Dynamax". It doesn't strictly punish you for Dynamaxing in fact: the move simply does same relative % damage whenever you're maxed or not.
It is possible that they also probably "undersold" how not dynamaxing would be a downside for a offensive pokemon like Zacian (whereas a more defensive one like Zamazenta would likely not opt into Dynamaxing leaving it to the other restricted).
I'm not exactly saying that their thinking was *right* on the "why did they assume Zacian was fine but Zama didn't need that extra oompf", just saying there was some thinking behind it.
(as for Urshifu, it's worth mentioning how in last gen VGC it was actually not that impactful. Breaking Protect is super strong but in a meta where the core gimmick disregards protect anyway it wasnt really that impressive on a mid speed sweeper. It only became a massive issue this generation where you no longer have Dynamax to let you tank those Urshifu hits, made even worse by Tera making those hit sting even harder)
We all know Mawile has a weirdly expansive movepool, particularly when it comes to elemental attacks, but what I find strange are some of the specific patterns (or lack thereof), which I've tried to illustrate in this table:
Okay so Mawile learns Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, but not Fire Punch. It does learn all three Fangs, though. It learns Flamethrower and Ice Beam, but not Thunderbolt, and it learns Fire Blast, but not Blizzard or Thunder. It also learns exactly one random utility move of each type (Icy Wind, Charge Beam, and Incinerate.
The omissions are so weird to me! With the exception of the last category (which isn't really a thing), every subtype of move has a different set of compatibilities with respect to Mawile. I can't help but respect how arbitrary it all is.
| Move Sub-category |  |  |  |
| "___ Punch" | ✘ |  | |
| "___ Fang" | | | |
| 90/100 Beam | | | ✘ |
| 110 Attack | | ✘ | ✘ |
| Random Utility Attack | | | |
Okay so Mawile learns Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, but not Fire Punch. It does learn all three Fangs, though. It learns Flamethrower and Ice Beam, but not Thunderbolt, and it learns Fire Blast, but not Blizzard or Thunder. It also learns exactly one random utility move of each type (Icy Wind, Charge Beam, and Incinerate.
The omissions are so weird to me! With the exception of the last category (which isn't really a thing), every subtype of move has a different set of compatibilities with respect to Mawile. I can't help but respect how arbitrary it all is.
We all know Mawile has a weirdly expansive movepool, particularly when it comes to elemental attacks, but what I find strange are some of the specific patterns (or lack thereof), which I've tried to illustrate in this table:
Move Sub-category "___ Punch" ✘ "___ Fang" 90/100 Beam ✘ 110 Attack ✘ ✘ Random Utility Attack
Okay so Mawile learns Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, but not Fire Punch. It does learn all three Fangs, though. It learns Flamethrower and Ice Beam, but not Thunderbolt, and it learns Fire Blast, but not Blizzard or Thunder. It also learns exactly one random utility move of each type (Icy Wind, Charge Beam, and Incinerate.
The omissions are so weird to me! With the exception of the last category (which isn't really a thing), every subtype of move has a different set of compatibilities with respect to Mawile. I can't help but respect how arbitrary it all is.
I guess fire attacks (and Ice Beam) come from Mawile's jaws - it's how the Adventures manga portrays it, at least - but it's not capable of generating a fiery punch.
As a Steel-type generating electricity and making itself colder aren't so unthinkable, so I guess that explains the punches. Lots of things get Icy Wind so that stands out less; Charge Beam is a little weirder, but I suppose it makes sense as it's a weaker, less aggressive version of Thunderbolt. I'm reminded of the way Reuniclus gets Thunder but not Thunderbolt and vice versa for Gothitelle.
Im trying to figure out the logic behind why almost every Pokémon used to be able to learn toxic. Maybe because it's described as a technique in RBY and FRLG, if I remember correctly. I know the Serebii website describes it as a technique in Gen 1. So maybe it's not the Pokemon emitting the poison themselves, but it's possibly some kind of ninja fighting technique, as sort of described by Koga (again, if I remember right.) Recent gens now have much fewer Pokémon learn toxic from TMs, which probably makes more sense imo.
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I generally took it as a gameplay-first consideration. Passive damage felt like a significant part of how the battle system was designed, so the designers made sure that the player could access it's most basic form regardless of which mons they were using.
For a more in-universe perspective, it's worth remembering that toxicity is all over the map in nature. A lot of spices and the like were supposed to be poisonous defenses before humans decided they taste good (this is why you don't feed your pet chocolate). Even outside of apples containing cyanide, biology is a finely balanced mess with millions of points of failure, so it's absolutely possible to overdose on basic and essential substances like water or oxygen.
High
Poison: self-explanatory
Bug: frequent use of venom
Grass: frequent use of poison
Ghost: Mechanical identity is passive damage
Dark: archetypal dirty fighting
Steel: heavy metal poisoning is a common talking point
Mid:
Dragon: given the prevalence of venomous reptiles, shows up pretty frequently in mythos (e.g. Hydra's blood)
Fire: smoke inhalation
Rock: still several minerals, most notably Sulfur and Asbestos
Water: Tons of prominent aquatic species (e.g. urchins, jellyfish, stingrays, snails), with venom also showing up occasionally elsewhere (e.g. catfish, male platypi)
Normal: defined by high variability and access to aspects of other types
Ground: can share a decent amount with Rock
Fairy: witch's potions
Low:
Psychic: doesn't care for physical things
Fighting: too honourable
Ice: The type of chemistry not happening
Electric: Can definitely lead to corrosion, but doesn't show up as much when talking about biology
Flying: For the record, there are some birds with toxins, but they're rare.
Poison: self-explanatory
Bug: frequent use of venom
Grass: frequent use of poison
Ghost: Mechanical identity is passive damage
Dark: archetypal dirty fighting
Steel: heavy metal poisoning is a common talking point
Mid:
Dragon: given the prevalence of venomous reptiles, shows up pretty frequently in mythos (e.g. Hydra's blood)
Fire: smoke inhalation
Rock: still several minerals, most notably Sulfur and Asbestos
Water: Tons of prominent aquatic species (e.g. urchins, jellyfish, stingrays, snails), with venom also showing up occasionally elsewhere (e.g. catfish, male platypi)
Normal: defined by high variability and access to aspects of other types
Ground: can share a decent amount with Rock
Fairy: witch's potions
Low:
Psychic: doesn't care for physical things
Fighting: too honourable
Ice: The type of chemistry not happening
Electric: Can definitely lead to corrosion, but doesn't show up as much when talking about biology
Flying: For the record, there are some birds with toxins, but they're rare.