bro’s trying to troll the 2 remaining heatran players in OU
Lati’s best pressure to GKing comes from CM + Psynoise anyways, lets your damage actually stick into fat teams which makes it a rly efficient breaker
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Lati’s best pressure to GKing comes from CM + Psynoise anyways, lets your damage actually stick into fat teams which makes it a rly efficient breaker
tbh even if i see a slightly weaker lati as the gking player, my first thought would be "oh its uninvested cm" not "oh its tera ground ebelt eq"
I like the metagame right now. I don’t really find anything to be too broken, if something’s too bulky just use a breaker and if something’s setting up and threatening to sweep you, you can tera and strike back.
My opinion on Tera Blast is the same, I think it should be banned for being uncompetitive cheese (similar to Glare in Alphabet Cup). I believe Solgaleo
should be unbanned because it would be really funny add to the meta via being Iron Crown 2.0 and checking stuff (please don't run it with Trick Room, you know who you are).
My opinion on Tera Blast is the same, I think it should be banned for being uncompetitive cheese (similar to Glare in Alphabet Cup). I believe Solgaleo
should be unbanned because it would
I have been watching a few spl games this season and I have come away thoroughly unimpressed every single time. It seems like every game I watch both players outsmart themselves in the builder and bring dogshit.
I've been sitting on a take for while that I am now going to share even though I'm aware how hot the take is. The Smogon tournament scene is an old boys club stocked full of washed people because people would rather draft their friends than the best players.
I said this in the OU chat and funnily enough a tour player came and we butted heads and did a beef battle bo3. Not only did I win easily it was an outclassing beatdown the likes of which appeared to be a 1900s vs a 1700s or 1700s vs 1500s. And this was against Leng Loi, someone who is inexplicably 3-0 in spl.
This first game is clear showing of what I mean.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2303972977-6eprxsk9s29xx0vl985mk5802f92xpspw
the first game I brought my ace ladder team and it clearly outclassed Leng's horrendous build. Leng had clear amulet scizor vs pech and landorus. The most useful clear amulet would ever be in a matchup and it still showed that it is a horrible item. This is exactly what I mean by tour players overthinking and bringing dogshit "wow if my opponent has pech clear amulet scizor goes so hard" well it clearly doesn't and is demonstratably a horrible item to use.
this second game was an even more egregious example
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2303977804-ijpfqbrn77sbibnen8e0tgd51pvy2jbpw?p2
Custap Ting lu and Custap Hatterene really? When did tour teams start using worse sets and teams than the 1400s? I am not saying all tournament players are bad, there are a few like Storm Zone that I believe are truly top tier. However, there is significant nepotism endorsed bloat in the tournament scene. SPL is not where you'll find the best players in the current meta game, you will find that in the highest ladder non stall vs non stall.
I've been sitting on a take for while that I am now going to share even though I'm aware how hot the take is. The Smogon tournament scene is an old boys club stocked full of washed people because people would rather draft their friends than the best players.
I said this in the OU chat and funnily enough a tour player came and we butted heads and did a beef battle bo3. Not only did I win easily it was an outclassing beatdown the likes of which appeared to be a 1900s vs a 1700s or 1700s vs 1500s. And this was against Leng Loi, someone who is inexplicably 3-0 in spl.
This first game is clear showing of what I mean.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2303972977-6eprxsk9s29xx0vl985mk5802f92xpspw
the first game I brought my ace ladder team and it clearly outclassed Leng's horrendous build. Leng had clear amulet scizor vs pech and landorus. The most useful clear amulet would ever be in a matchup and it still showed that it is a horrible item. This is exactly what I mean by tour players overthinking and bringing dogshit "wow if my opponent has pech clear amulet scizor goes so hard" well it clearly doesn't and is demonstratably a horrible item to use.
this second game was an even more egregious example
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2303977804-ijpfqbrn77sbibnen8e0tgd51pvy2jbpw?p2
Custap Ting lu and Custap Hatterene really? When did tour teams start using worse sets and teams than the 1400s? I am not saying all tournament players are bad, there are a few like Storm Zone that I believe are truly top tier. However, there is significant nepotism endorsed bloat in the tournament scene. SPL is not where you'll find the best players in the current meta game, you will find that in the highest ladder non stall vs non stall.
It's a common misconception to see the ladder community and tour community as two separate groups when in reality there is tons of overlap.
Tour players like to hide on alts when testing teams to maintain as much of an element of surprise as possible, because unexpected techs can make a big difference in a bo1 format. The same techs are going to whimper out when you fight storm zone for the 4th time on ladder and he's already seen it. So there's definitely a slight difference in the "ladder meta" and "tour meta." Ultimately though, much of high ladder IS SPL.
I know a fair number of active tour players and their respective alts, but obviously for the sake of respect and sportsmanship I'm not going to air them out here. But let's take a look anyway: take a gander at the leaderboards right now and pay attention to the gxe column. Notice something?
You'll never guess which tournament this player is participating in!!! (hint: It's SPL) And we already know that KLAWFSTALL is Ewin, another SPL player.
There's always gonna be some players you could say aren't ready for SPL, and some players who got snubbed and should've been drafted. But if you think that SPL players are bad and ladder is way better, you probably haven't participated in a big team tour and got to see how much SV ladder grinding goes on behind the scenes. SV in particular, you can't be lazy and expect to get consistent wins.
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I think the problem he's referring to is better described as "cteam culture" rather than an "old boys club". I've been helping storm and 3d prepare for spl with teamchoices and practice matches and when 3d sends me initial teams he wants to use some of them outright lose to common archetypes or top tier mons but "he won't bring that" is the initial response. Last week if he went with what he initially wanted to bring he'd have had a tougher time winning than he did with the team he brought. Surprise factor is much more rewarded in a bo1 vs a specific opponent than laddering entirely up on a fresh account. Week 4 I spent about 2 hours helping storm optimize the sand he brought just for it to lose to av body press kyurem (terrible set) but it did its job getting the surprise kill vs a ttar which severely changed the nature of the match.
Because of all these weird and suboptimal techs that are either worse than more conventional options ~80% of the time or will completely fall flat in a high ladder rematch unless its an autowin mu, it's been much harder for me to find teams I'd enjoy using on ladder from these bo1 tours. That isn't to say my teamstealing & enjoyment is their priority, you're supposed to win, but pretending that these niche options are actually super good and consistent vs the meta at large is wrong. I've had more success stealing teams from bo3 smaller tours (s/o finch for "giving" me that scarfrai ting offense of yours) than spl and if someone is looking for more consistent ladder teams I would recommend there or from other gold/silver medal accounts you fight on ladder.
Also, pay attention to the glicko column, the +/- 80 is unbelievably high and means that accounts gxe is wildly "inaccurate" because it's been decay farmed. A legit 95 gxe would be unbelievably impressive but is simply not obtainable in CG ou due to the competitiveness. That is not to say the player is bad at all, as you do have to win consistently to not have it tank, but I don't view decay farming (intentional or unintentional) as a testament of skill.
Because of all these weird and suboptimal techs that are either worse than more conventional options ~80% of the time or will completely fall flat in a high ladder rematch unless its an autowin mu, it's been much harder for me to find teams I'd enjoy using on ladder from these bo1 tours. That isn't to say my teamstealing & enjoyment is their priority, you're supposed to win, but pretending that these niche options are actually super good and consistent vs the meta at large is wrong. I've had more success stealing teams from bo3 smaller tours (s/o finch for "giving" me that scarfrai ting offense of yours) than spl and if someone is looking for more consistent ladder teams I would recommend there or from other gold/silver medal accounts you fight on ladder.
Also, pay attention to the glicko column, the +/- 80 is unbelievably high and means that accounts gxe is wildly "inaccurate" because it's been decay farmed. A legit 95 gxe would be unbelievably impressive but is simply not obtainable in CG ou due to the competitiveness. That is not to say the player is bad at all, as you do have to win consistently to not have it tank, but I don't view decay farming (intentional or unintentional) as a testament of skill.
it's called cooking, absolutely no respect for the sauce. also using a random BO3 with no stakes is really not the best way to prove that SPL players, and more broadly tournament players, are shit lol. you're allowed to think SPL players are shit but there's a notable amount of SPL players that are making their SPL debut, so I don't think you can really claim it's all nepotism and old washed players.
your final comment about high ladder nonstall vs nonstall is really silly. makes sense if you're saying stall isn't viable, that's a defensible take, but it really just sounds like the classic "stall is no skill wah" ridiculous take
There are ample opportunities to get into the tour scene; this post reads as someone who is simply salty about not being able to get into it. I’m not a world-class player, far from it, yet I’ve gotten into tournaments and even started managing them because I worked my way up by winning tours and helping team servers. It’s one thing to ask for help to get up to this level, and it’s a completely different thing to claim that nepotism is the only thing standing in the way of “the best players” getting into SPL.
Let’s be real as well - only the best players get retained or bought. (The best players are those with the best records.) One poor season can indeed ruin a new player’s chances of getting into SPL/SCL/WCoP in the future, but a poor season from an established player with good results can be written off as simply an off year. Bottom line: be a good presence in helping and find individual success instead of complaining.
This sentiment that "ladder players are better than tournament players" pops up once in a while, but then OLT comes around and the majority of players who are able to hit the top of the ladder to qualify are the same players you see regularly compete in tournaments. The ladder is indeed a very valuable practice and testing ground to improve both your playing and building, and this is corroborated by the fact that, as has been mentioned, most tournament players do in fact ladder, albeit on various alts to avoid their teams being scouted. As has also been mentioned, there is something to be said about teams fit for consistent laddering vs. various players, as opposed to a best-of-1 tournament game against a player whose tendencies you have an idea of.
I made OLT in gen 8 and came back from a multi year hiatus for about 4 months. Of course everyone would dismiss any opinion like that as just some bad player salty they weren't drafted. If you are on high ladder you have probably played me before. Any tour players can challenge me if you want to see if I'm a good enough player to be making this kind of claim.
I will fully admit I'm more lurker than someone who's particularly active. But I can't deny that the tera decision is somewhat frustrating at least from an outside perspective. It never really felt like anything was truly tried. Even if behind the scenes things *were* done. They were never clear to anyone publicly. We had a suspect poll close after release back when we had threats like Chi-yu around. Said poll was arguably flawed due to asking people who wanted *any* sort of action to be tested to divide their votes.
Since then the most that was given was more along the lines of vague questions of "How do you feel about tera from 1-10" Which doesn't exactly allow much to be explained or form a conversation. This tier has been full of crazy things people have been willing to test (Bringing down legendaries that are clearly above curve in many ways because they aren't good in ubers). And even banning sleep to preserve them being here instead of the absusers. Yet the conversation for even a test regarding any form of tera restriction was always treated as something that would be inherently harmful. Well how do we know if something would be harmful if we can't even test it on a larger scale?
Whether or not tera should or shouldn't be banned or restricted I feel like the conversation surrounding it was colosally mishandled. Instead of what feels like kicking the can down the road in terms of it until eventually kicking it off a cliff to try and end the conversation.
Even still I do agree heavily with another post that the way bans are looked at has to change to keep up with how gamefreak is designing new pokemon. Weirdo crazy abilities and moves are becoming more normal, and considering stuff like those as things to be banned would likely end up being a smart decision to keep up with the nonsense.
I'm sorry if this all came off abrasive either way
Since then the most that was given was more along the lines of vague questions of "How do you feel about tera from 1-10" Which doesn't exactly allow much to be explained or form a conversation. This tier has been full of crazy things people have been willing to test (Bringing down legendaries that are clearly above curve in many ways because they aren't good in ubers). And even banning sleep to preserve them being here instead of the absusers. Yet the conversation for even a test regarding any form of tera restriction was always treated as something that would be inherently harmful. Well how do we know if something would be harmful if we can't even test it on a larger scale?
Whether or not tera should or shouldn't be banned or restricted I feel like the conversation surrounding it was colosally mishandled. Instead of what feels like kicking the can down the road in terms of it until eventually kicking it off a cliff to try and end the conversation.
Even still I do agree heavily with another post that the way bans are looked at has to change to keep up with how gamefreak is designing new pokemon. Weirdo crazy abilities and moves are becoming more normal, and considering stuff like those as things to be banned would likely end up being a smart decision to keep up with the nonsense.
I'm sorry if this all came off abrasive either way
You can disagree with any decision of course, but this is misinformation from you. Everything we did is public -- the council historically was very private, but we have made sure to share everything publicly and have discussion public throughout this generation. We have had multipe public and badgeholder discussions on the topic alongside bringing it up regularly in metagame discussion and holding tiering surveys. You can disagre with the content or the way they were done, but to say we never "truly tried" or imply things were "behind the scenes" dismisses hundreds of posts, dozens of hours, and numerous openings for tiering action that just were not met with support.
Relevant posts:
- Terastallization Policy Review discussion, #1
- Terastallization Tiering Survey data, #1
- SV OU Terastallization suspect test
- SV OU Terastallization suspect voting
- Terastallization Tiering Survey data, #2
- Terastallization Policy Review discussion, #2
- Terastallization Tiering Survey data, #3
As has been discussed numerous times, this was the only time to do a suspect. If we waited any later, it overlaps with SPL and OST. We did it the moment we had approval and support to get the suspect, which required a PR discussion, survey, and some time to pass first. We were positioned for a second suspect again and made a public thread on it (linked above), but the support was not close to there.
This is simply not true. It never happened. We never gave a "1-10" scale for Tera on any survey this generation. This was only on enjoyment/competitiveness of the metagame. We had multiple separate, specific questions on Tera numerous times (also linked above).
I am fine with people disagreeing, but let's not spread misinformation.
Fair enough. I suppose I was just misremembering/was misinformed. My apologies!
Hard to deny that with those survey results that I do wish further examinations went into the possibility of restrictions. Does feel like with how things were the potential for some kinda restriction could have happened. But oh well, is what it is I suppose.
I appreciate the relatively polite response and apologize for potentially throwing a bit of water on a grease fire.
Hard to deny that with those survey results that I do wish further examinations went into the possibility of restrictions. Does feel like with how things were the potential for some kinda restriction could have happened. But oh well, is what it is I suppose.
I appreciate the relatively polite response and apologize for potentially throwing a bit of water on a grease fire.
Don't think I asked this directly, but what are you guys hoping to see in SV as far as development for mons goes?
Me personally, I couldn't be happier to see Latios get a W or two these days. From Choice Specs, to Scarf, heck, even the Calm Mind sets. I've liked seeing Latios perform well. If Latios has no fans, then i'm dead. 'Till my last breath, i'll be loading up Latios Balance or Bulky Offense
Me personally, I couldn't be happier to see Latios get a W or two these days. From Choice Specs, to Scarf, heck, even the Calm Mind sets. I've liked seeing Latios perform well. If Latios has no fans, then i'm dead. 'Till my last breath, i'll be loading up Latios Balance or Bulky Offense
I hope lower tier mons get explored more and we get a tier with a higher number of mons in it. Mons that I have seen perform strongly in teams and that I think should be OU:
Sinistcha
Tornadus-T
Latios
Okidogi
Okidogi mentioned.
Okidogi @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Guard Dog
Tera Type: Fire / Grass / Dark / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 96 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Taunt / Ice Punch
Posting a set I've been using to very high/fun success at the moment to deal with Pech/Lando/Sini itself. Clear amulet fucking rips on Okidogi as Guard Dog already deals with intimidate, but resisting parting shot and the drop from Strength Sap is amazing. Taunt to punish Roosts/Recovers, and prevent set up from Gambits. Works amazingly well in Grass Terrain but can function fine otherwise long as you can deal with SPA Lando's or Treads ahead of time.
I forgot the additional benefit of being able to massively fuck with stall, Pex can't lower your SPD to kill you and Dozo doesn't appreciate you being around at all
I have an AV set in a team I
Dawg i'm so hoping that Torn-T starts doing things. Good speed tier with Regenerator. I'm more lowkey 'bout it, but i'm secretly interested in how Tornadus fairs in the future
you went 0-3 in swiss buddy all this proves is you know how to ladder but can't buy a win in a tournament setting
another OU fight night for the history books!?!?!?!
anyways, what is your fave hazard setter in OU and why?
Samu and its not even close
The amount of utility and power is amazing on any viable team. Its funny considering that other than scarf sets, it barely uses flip turn, cuz it has so many other options.
Tldr ceaseless edge is a goofy ass move
definitely hamurott
ceaseless is just so absurdly consistent at stacking spikes in front of so much of the metagame it's unreal. If you manage to cleanly get him on the field you're getting at least 2 layers up and there's a nonzero chance he can come in again. Hamu and ghold alone make for by far (in my opinion) the most consistent hstack core in the entire game and it's a core that can fit on pretty much any archetype barring stall. No idea how people prefer ting-lu honestly.
Dang, I never would have expected that....
Okay, so this isn't a one liner, I think my favourite spiker has to be between Ting Lu or Skarmory. Simply because they can set up spikes while walling a large amount of the metagame. Ting Lu on the special side and skarmory on the physical side. Skarmory has some fraud claims thrown around, but I think a double attack set (Brave bird, body press, roost, spikes) could potentially be alright, though you just have to be careful with setup sweepers.
Another mon I'm interested in is spikes Glimmora. Its not used at all since it has rocks and toxic spikes, but I feel it could be used on certain teams, as its a spiker that removes hazards as well. Something like spikes, mortal spin, power gem and earth power could potentially work. You deter corviknight with power gem, gholdengo and kingambit with earth power. Iron crown is the only one that it would really hate, but IDT I've seen Iron Crown on a spikestack team for a while, though even then crown is smacked by e-power.
just ran into someone on ladder running smack down lando-t to tech corv. didn't work on me (since i wasnt running corv lol) but it did let him 1v1 my spikes gliscor pretty handily which I was kind of surprised by. I wasn't running toxic and i could've won if I did have it though but that's such a fringe situation and knock off is just better for the team comp in general.
Yall think this has a shred of viability or should it stay in teambuilder?
Yall think this has a shred of viability or should it stay in teambuilder?