Okay so this initial premise was clearly quite stupid, but I'm enjoying the memes it has spawned
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Okay so this initial premise was clearly quite stupid, but I'm enjoying the memes it has spawned
i woke up and played some more sky on the bus so i have a more elaborate post:
I think id dislike the pmd sky story a lot less if I didnt felt shoved into it. My rule of thumb is that you are allowed to railroad me into your story as long as you have a good story, because i want to experience it and would seek it either way. but pmd skys story is just not that good for me to enjoy being dragged around like that.
objectively, it's probably about the same as rescues plot: rescuers is simpler and smaller, with a few kinks and not much happening, sky is more grandiose but with more flaws, averaging the same enjoyement. but in rescuers, you get to pick when to engage with the story dungeons, which gives agency to the player and lets them space out the story content between main gameplay as they please. the only time they break this is on the fugitive arc, but it makes the whole arc a lot more engaging: you get the agency ripped away from you, and have no choice but to flee and keep going until you prove yourself innocent.
meanwhile, sky feels like im on a time limit at all times: how long do i have before a forced dungeon happens? do i have time to complete missions before they become worthless with a new dungeon unlock? should i grind at the dojo in case? and all of this would maybe be interesting if it was tied to a mechanic that i liked engaging with, but since its all surrounding skys story, i feel shoved back into the script as soon as i start enjoying the base dungeon exploring loop. it makes me feel resentful of the plot
sentry duty does not help. its a fun minigame, but when i feel like im on a time limit, its incredibly annoying to lose a day to forced sentry duty.
Another point is that it makes dungeons less memorable in this game: the story goes by so fast and shoves new dungeons at you that older ones become obsolete and you dont go there as the better jobs appear. I have all early rescuers dungeons memorized because of how i get to take my time there before moving on the story, but i think i spent like one job day at drenched bluff and mt bristle respectively before getting thrown to waterfall cave, who then itself got thrown after 2 job expeditions
I think id dislike the pmd sky story a lot less if I didnt felt shoved into it. My rule of thumb is that you are allowed to railroad me into your story as long as you have a good story, because i want to experience it and would seek it either way. but pmd skys story is just not that good for me to enjoy being dragged around like that.
objectively, it's probably about the same as rescues plot: rescuers is simpler and smaller, with a few kinks and not much happening, sky is more grandiose but with more flaws, averaging the same enjoyement. but in rescuers, you get to pick when to engage with the story dungeons, which gives agency to the player and lets them space out the story content between main gameplay as they please. the only time they break this is on the fugitive arc, but it makes the whole arc a lot more engaging: you get the agency ripped away from you, and have no choice but to flee and keep going until you prove yourself innocent.
meanwhile, sky feels like im on a time limit at all times: how long do i have before a forced dungeon happens? do i have time to complete missions before they become worthless with a new dungeon unlock? should i grind at the dojo in case? and all of this would maybe be interesting if it was tied to a mechanic that i liked engaging with, but since its all surrounding skys story, i feel shoved back into the script as soon as i start enjoying the base dungeon exploring loop. it makes me feel resentful of the plot
sentry duty does not help. its a fun minigame, but when i feel like im on a time limit, its incredibly annoying to lose a day to forced sentry duty.
Another point is that it makes dungeons less memorable in this game: the story goes by so fast and shoves new dungeons at you that older ones become obsolete and you dont go there as the better jobs appear. I have all early rescuers dungeons memorized because of how i get to take my time there before moving on the story, but i think i spent like one job day at drenched bluff and mt bristle respectively before getting thrown to waterfall cave, who then itself got thrown after 2 job expeditions
My unpopular opinion for this thread is that 90% of Pokemon story defenses here (outside of SM and BW) are basically just fanfic. In fact there is a lot of good Pokemon fanfiction that takes a lot of these ideas and actually runs with it.
Too bad most stories in this franchise at their base actually suck and people here put more thought into those games' characters than the original devs
Not only that but most Pokemon game stories before Gen 5 have so few ideas and are vapid content, there as a vehicle to deliver a power fantasy rather than to actually say anything of note. No, Cyrus is not actually interesting or some high IQ theme from the devs, he's some ideas from an era of emo material that sounds cool. And that's all the devs needed/wanted to do. Make it sound cool.
Too bad most stories in this franchise at their base actually suck and people here put more thought into those games' characters than the original devs
Not only that but most Pokemon game stories before Gen 5 have so few ideas and are vapid content, there as a vehicle to deliver a power fantasy rather than to actually say anything of note. No, Cyrus is not actually interesting or some high IQ theme from the devs, he's some ideas from an era of emo material that sounds cool. And that's all the devs needed/wanted to do. Make it sound cool.
See my take here is that it's fine that the Pokemon games have relatively simple stories. They serve the point that they need to in the games. Not every story needs to be some deep piece delving into the human condition. Sometimes simple and fun are all that you need, especially for a game series that is oriented towards children. Would it be nice for the games to go into more detailed and in depth stories? Yes, but treating it as some big failure if it doesn't is missing the point.
Also we've had someone say George Lucas is good with thoughtful and compelling theming, which is usually the point where we can firmly admit we've done something wrong.
Also we've had someone say George Lucas is good with thoughtful and compelling theming, which is usually the point where we can firmly admit we've done something wrong.
Pokémon gameplay loop of catching mons, building a team and exploring a region is so good that a pokémon game don't need a story. One could go even more barebones than gen 1 with only the pokémon league as the plot and the game would be fine.
Playing the Mega Man Zero quadrilogy was an illuminating experience for how I view Pokemon stories because it made me realize that Actually It's All About Vibes And Aura
Obviously whenever the actual words in the textboxes are well-written that's cool and appreciated, but Pokemon is a series of 15-20 hour monster-catching RPGs, not a book series. There are a plethora of other tools you can use in this medium to immerse people and attain the aforementioned Vibes And Aura. People don't like N because of a particularly quotable monologue of his, people like N because he's a handsome mystical puzzle man with a big fuck-off dragon who you fight in a giant castle risen from the earth. People like SV's story because it's based around your cool motorcycle dragon friend and 3 other funny lovable blorbos and at the end you go with them into a big crater with wicked time creatures to fight a robot with Undertale text glitches. Vibes And Aura! On the flip-side, Team Galactic and Flare suck not because of any egregiously bad lines but because they look stupid and their plans are anticlimactically thwarted before the game even ends and you just continue with your journey like nothing happened.
I bring up Mega Man Zero because those games are often considered the best Mega Man stories and some of the best games in the series in general. Why is that? Is it because they have these brilliant beautiful dialogue exchanges and extremely detailed character arcs? No, lol, these are 2-3 hour Game Boy Advance sidescrollers. The key is - say it with me now - Vibes And Aura! Without spoiling too much the setting is cool, the villains are cool and the threats they pose feel real thanks in large part to having some of the sickest setpieces on the hardware.
Here's a tier list if that makes it any easier to understand what I'm saying (probably should've bumped down swsh a slot but the galar gym challenge is pretty high aura while rose's plot is low aura eternatus not-withstanding so it's kind of a borderline case)
Obviously whenever the actual words in the textboxes are well-written that's cool and appreciated, but Pokemon is a series of 15-20 hour monster-catching RPGs, not a book series. There are a plethora of other tools you can use in this medium to immerse people and attain the aforementioned Vibes And Aura. People don't like N because of a particularly quotable monologue of his, people like N because he's a handsome mystical puzzle man with a big fuck-off dragon who you fight in a giant castle risen from the earth. People like SV's story because it's based around your cool motorcycle dragon friend and 3 other funny lovable blorbos and at the end you go with them into a big crater with wicked time creatures to fight a robot with Undertale text glitches. Vibes And Aura! On the flip-side, Team Galactic and Flare suck not because of any egregiously bad lines but because they look stupid and their plans are anticlimactically thwarted before the game even ends and you just continue with your journey like nothing happened.
I bring up Mega Man Zero because those games are often considered the best Mega Man stories and some of the best games in the series in general. Why is that? Is it because they have these brilliant beautiful dialogue exchanges and extremely detailed character arcs? No, lol, these are 2-3 hour Game Boy Advance sidescrollers. The key is - say it with me now - Vibes And Aura! Without spoiling too much the setting is cool, the villains are cool and the threats they pose feel real thanks in large part to having some of the sickest setpieces on the hardware.
Here's a tier list if that makes it any easier to understand what I'm saying (probably should've bumped down swsh a slot but the galar gym challenge is pretty high aura while rose's plot is low aura eternatus not-withstanding so it's kind of a borderline case)
In all this discourse I think this is the take I resonate with most. I know Pokémon’s not Shakespeare, but it still engages the part of my brain that likes storytelling and I still generally come away with cool impressions from the stories and some thoughts and observations that I find meaningful. I haven’t felt much of a reason to even want to expect more than that on this front when I’m already getting more substantial stories from other, non-Pokémon media. Pokémon is fun, low-stakes storytelling that stays in its lane, but I think that also offers flexibility in terms of what you take away from it, and I like that.
I might just have a cold dead heart because I think most Pokemon games would be objectively better if you removed the storytelling
I've always had one major rule when analyzing media: If you do something, do it right. I'd rather you not try something in your game that you don't give a shit to do well at all than to fail and dilute the game. If you remove all of the storybeats from Hoenn games I straight-up have a superior experience, same with Crystal, same with Kanto, same with Platinum.
You say you're gonna get rid of the evil team bases? Yes Please, I'll Eat That Up. Distortion World? Boring slide puzzles that I don't care about.
For me to find something cool I need to take the media seriously, which I just can't take most Pokemon games seriously. Because it doesn't feel like it's taking itself seriously. That's what I think I disagree with with the "aura" argument. I don't feel "aura" when I don't think the writing cares about itself either.
So I don't care about Cyrus. The writer for Cyrus doesn't care. What the fuck are we doing here. I get it you just want to look cool, but I'm not 8 anymore so I don't care. And you can say "well you're not the target demo" and sure, but also when I was that age I thought trains were the coolest shit ever, it's really not that impressive or something to celebrate to do basic shonen shit that satisfies the appetite of pre-teens.
And to make it perfectly clear: I am team "Kids deserve good stories too". And I don't count shit like Kanto/Johto/Hoenn/Sinnoh/Kalos/Galar to be that.
I feel like my equivalent to overall aura when it comes to connecting with a game's story is enjoyable gameplay. It doesn't matter how intense the cutscene is if I'm skipping it/not paying it any attention because I'm desperate for better action, while on the other hand I'll openly accept something contrived if I'm excited about the next level that event leads to. This also means I take a very dim view of boss fights that are heavily scripted with little player agency, just be honest about there being a cutscene there.
View attachment D Rose Lost Loss for words.webp
How many fukkin meds y'all taking to learn a whole-ass writing system out of medicine boxes!?
Each their own, but that would just be boring to me. Like, I could go play Solitaire or Tetris if I just wanted a ruthlessly efficient, plotless game, and sometimes I do. But I don’t ever connect with those games in the same way that I do with Pokémon, because Pokémon has lovable creatures and characters and an adventure with obstacles to overcome. Doesn’t need to be high art (and it never is), but these are adventure RPGs, and I like being immersed in a story that can create situations beyond “catch monster, grind through cave, beat nondescript League-sanctioned boss, repeat.” And I think narrative is important for differentiating those things.
Since we’re here, I also just don’t really have rules for analyzing media. The media is what it is, I take it on those terms, and draw what I can from it. There’s so much media out there in the world; more than any individual could conceivably experience even with a thousand lifetimes. Every single increment of the spectrum of quality has been covered. If a game tries at something and fails, well, it’s got company. But even in those failures, I can usually find something interesting.
Since we're on this topic, we really might as well call it for what it is.
GOOD.
I know I'm not in the minority here when I say that a lot of the formulaic fluff getting cut or at least adjusted was good. By that, I'm explicitly talking about Gyms and Evil Teams.
I'm not a fan of how "Evil" teams are just poor social misfits three times in a row. Yeah, I get it, it worked for Alola, but...
As for the gyms... let's talk about the worst kayfabe storytelling this side of AEW.
XY's "mystery" of Mega Evolution. Sycamore does a good job of sending the kids on a wild goose chase so they can discover the mystery of Mega Evolution and bring back a can of blinker fluid while they're on the way.
You know what doesn't come up in the story until you find out Korrina is somehow the leader of Shalour's gym? Yep, the gyms.
In most games, gyms are just roadblocks you gotta do for one reason or another. It's telling that you can outright skip so many of them until there's a badge check, especially in Gen 1.
So, MAJOR props to Galar for putting respect on Gyms' names. They're this franchise's meat and potatoes gameplay-wise and should have a BIG impact on the journey.
To be fair, there were a bunch of children who would get sick often and my parents had an attitude to stock on medicine "just in case", so we had a lot of medicine in the house. But 3 common medicines are half of the alphabet's letters: tylenol, advil, dorflex. You don't need much, you just need variety.View attachment 716266
How many fukkin meds y'all taking to learn a whole-ass writing system out of medicine boxes!?
And besides that the words have to make sense. I doubt that I ever discovered the letter "w" in braille, it's not really used in portuguese so I had "_ailord", but I knew there is a pokémon named Wailord, it was easy to deduce that first unknown letter.
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Gen 7 and 8 were PEAK for gyms after the weaksauce Kalos ones, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Someone recognized that people were disappointed in Korrina etc and decided to fix that.
"But Alola didn't have gyms," I hear you say. EXACTLY. Alola said "What if we replace the gyms with actual puzzles, that are designed around not leaving in the middle, and end them with a reasonably challenging fight?" And it worked.
Galar then brought back the gyms(I wonder if people complained about the lack of formal enemies etc or if it was always the plan), but Galar said "Well, we're bringing back the big formal fights, people clearly care about those, let's give them something to care about." And everything from the soundtrack to the location to the super-form delivered on that. Yes, they're cheeseable with your own DMax, but they are impressive enough that I don't think most people noticed. And if you ban DMax, good luck. You're going to need it.
There's also the fact that Braille is algorithmic. Sign language or a foreign language, you have to learn everything on it's own. Braille is a pattern.
It's an amusing irony to me that even as post-classic era Pokemon other than Galar has gone out of its way to de-emphasize the Pokemon League relative to other gameplay/story bits they've simultaneously put more effort into contextualizing it on a region-by-region basis. Alola's Island Challenge is a traditional ceremony commemorating an old hero's journey with the League being a new thing, Galar is a big sports league and Paldea's League is an academic certification (note how 3/4 of the E4 and Geeta wear very simple, clean, "professional" outfits).
What does the Pokemon League mean to the people of [region]? How does [region]'s cultural identity permeate into it? These questions and more have only been getting answered consistently since Alola outside of the vague handwavey "it's part of your pokemon trainer coming-of-age ritual" thing. Makes me wonder what Gen 10 will do
What does the Pokemon League mean to the people of [region]? How does [region]'s cultural identity permeate into it? These questions and more have only been getting answered consistently since Alola outside of the vague handwavey "it's part of your pokemon trainer coming-of-age ritual" thing. Makes me wonder what Gen 10 will do
Since you mentioned the Zero series, one example I wanted to bring up last time about how wasted LA's "humans vs Pokemon" angle feels is from that series. I didn't mention it before bc I didn't know if you were familiar with them. So here I present, the Caravaners from Zero 4.
View attachment Caravan.webp
The Caravaners are people from Neo Arcadia, once a paradise for humans, escaping from Weil's tyrannical regime and settling in the life resurging Area Zero. After all the wars in which the humans got caught in the crossfire, they've grown to dislike all reploids, including Zero and the Resistance. Some of them (the younger ones) act timid were Zero meets them, others (the grown ups) are more hostile. Their leader Neige is less prejudiced because she was saved once by a reploid, Craft, and became
At the halfway point of the game, the Caravan is invaded by Weil's forces and Zero goes to the rescue. Craft, now serving Weil, kidnaps Neige after she reveals they used to know each other; and the caravaners are willing to abandon her because of this, despite all the help Neige provided them and that their camp was just saved by the resistance. This was Zero's last straw, he calls them out for their cowardice and goes to rescue Neige himself. The caravaners realize their mistakes and act more open towards Zero from then on, they even start believing again in a world where humans and reploids can live together like they used to in the Classic and X series, which is doubly heartwarming considering that's what happens in the ZX games.
The caravaners are like the Jubilife villagers, both groups are afraid of what the other faction (Reploids and Pokemon) did to them in the past, and feel threatened around them, except it's more clear in Zero 4 that you are not welcome at the start. In Legends Arceus it's kinda hard to believe ppl are feeling threatened about Pokemon no matter how much they say it at the start, when Jubilife Village still behaves like the usual Pokemon world, with professors passionate for investigating Pokemon, clan leaders and wardens respected figures like gym leaders will be in the future, and just how quickly you're given quests to introduce Pokemon to the village.
Now wait a minute...
Well, now I'm getting read like a children's book out here.
Right now, the only thing I'm really missing in Gyms now is some creativity. I need gyms to be at least on par with Emerald Liza and Tate.
Too many gyms are like 2-3 shitmons with the Leader's TM, (It probably isn't good) then an Ace that's as threatening as a Magikarp in Sun.
Gamefreak may think they're cooking, but they got a British recipe book out there. Paldea's highest-level leader had an ALTARIA as an Ace. Not any Altaria btw, TERA ICE ALTARIA, because we can't even have it try to leverage its good typing.
I'm curious now, what recipe book did this come from?
(for context, I'm not saying it's a weak set, in fact it did its job well by stopping cold plenty of people's runs, but I dunno, playing with Double Team feels...dirty)
This is nothing to me after Justy's Sand Veil-Storm + Double Team spamming Ground/Grass mons (in games with limited access to Shock Wave or Aerial Ace) coupled with things like Ingrain and the mentioned Sandstorm to win/recover by Chip