Project Metagame Workshop

Communism (open to other names)

Premise:

Every pokèmon gets a copy of all the items in the party

Details:

Only the item assigned to a specific pokèmon can be removed/tricked. It doesn't affect other pokèmon
Not sure how it will work if multiple berries are used
OU clauses

Possible viable strategies:

-choice offense: choice band, choice scarf, choice specs, assault vest + heavy duty boots/life orb/focus sash/leftovers
- paradox offense: booster energy + offensive or support items
-defensive/bulky offense: leftovers, sitrus berry, heavy duty boots, lum berry, rocky helmet
- stacking weaknesses + super effective move power reducing berries
- item enhancing moves of a certain type + matching plate
- focus sash + custap berry/salac berry/liechi berry + heavy duty boots

bans: king's rock/razor fang
possible bans: weakness policy, scope lens, protect (to make full choice teams playable and avoid passive recovery cheese), choice scarf (if choice teams end up being too strong), focus sash (can provide c), tera clause

Power level of this metagame would be crazy, expecially on the offensive side, but there will be a large number of viable strategies, with item sets being as important as the selection of pokèmon. I would love full choice teams to be viable but not ending up broken or too much matchup reliant.
We already got a similar format in here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sharing-is-caring.3727118/

Vaccimon (Not sure of the name)

Premise

A pokemon develops immunity to moves it got hit by for as long as it stays on the field.

 Explanations
If a pokemon would get hit by a move it already got hit by previously (including status moves) that move does nothing.

If a move doesn't hit (because of an accuracy check or any other reason, the pokemon doesn't get immunity to that move)

Moves that target the user are also affected, this means you won't be able to sword dance twice without switching, because of move immunity.

The immunity is based on the move, not the pokemon using the move, this means that if 2 different pokemons use the same move on the same target the immunity still stands.

It could work in singles, but I think it's way more interesting in doubles.

Bans
  • Moves that force the target to switch.
  • Baton pass
Possible ban
  • :gholdengo: Gholdengo - the innate immunity to status moves combined with the good typing and the possibility to get immunities to even more moves might be too much of a threat.
Viability shift
  • Choice items lose a lot of value being unable to hit the same mon twice.
  • Buffing moves and healing moves that target yourself can only be used once without switching.
  • Defensive mons that can stay on the field for a long time gain a lot of value by amassing immunities to multiple moves.
  • Probably a lot more things...
Questions
How do multi-hit moves work?
The pokemon won't be immune until the move is done resolving.

What about moves that don't target?
Moves like reflect, light screen, spikes, trick room, rain dance, etc. Are unaffected by the immunity rules.

How does redirecting moves work?
Magic bounce will reflect the status move and give immunity to the pokemon that gets hit, not the magic bounce user.

Follow me can only be used once, because it targets the user, but if a move gets redirected to the user of follow me they will get immune to that move too.

How does transfom work?
The pokemon that gets transformed into can no longer be the target of transform.

Transforming into a pokemon that has move immunities does NOT copy those move immunities.

What about moves like outrage?
You probably don't want to use moves that trap you into using them in this OM. A pokemon hit by outrage becomes immune to outrage.

What if I hit a substitute?
The pokemon won't get the immunity, and the substitute cannot get immunities.
This sound like it just promote fat, either stall or bulky set up too much, which usually doesnt end up being all that fun, specially for the average ladder player, as games would take for too long for a casual format.

JOHN MONS

Premise: both players start with a 300 second timer which does not refresh. Every 50 second time interval has passed, ALL of your pokemon's offensive moves deal a cumulative additional 10% more damage. If your timer reaches runs out, you lose the game.

e.g.

start of battle (300-251s timer) : 0% more damage.
250-201s timer: 10% more damage.
200-151s timer: 20% more damage.
150-101s timer: 30% more damage
100-51s timer: 40% more damage.
50-0s timer: 50% more damage.

Banlist: Standard OU clauses and banlist.

Threats and Strategy:

:Kingambit: Last mon Kingambit <50s will have a very respectable 2.25x damage increase.

Protect can help you timeout your opponent.
I dont think this would be possible to code, and doesn't sound fair for users with any degree of lag.


(Sorry, I don't have any funny/cool pictures this time)

Premise :​


Pokémon can replace their item by another that is stored in their first moveslot.

Rules :​

  1. each "item move" has 1 PP and have an offensive category (this is to prevent Assault vest or Taunt to block the move usage) ;
  2. if no item, the move simply gives one to the user ;
  3. one can replace its item with the same ;
  4. replacements are definitive, which means pokémon keep their new item until the end of the battle.

Properties :​


  • Endless Battle Clause
  • Evasion Clause
  • OHKO Clause
  • Sleep Clause : only one foe can be put to sleep per game
  • Species Clause
  • Arena Trap
  • Moody
  • Sand Veil
  • Shadow Tag
  • Snow Cloack
  • Speed Boost
  • Bright Powder
  • Energy Booster
  • Baton Pass
  • Last Respects
  • Revival Blessing
  • Shed Tail
  • Shell Smash
  • Annihilape
  • Arceus (all forms)
  • Calyrex-Ice
  • Calyrex-Shadow
  • Deoxys
  • Deoxys-Attack
  • Deoxys-Speed
  • Espathra
  • Eternatus
  • Flutter Mane
  • Giratina (both forms)
  • Groudon
  • Ho-oh
  • Koraidon
  • Kyogre
  • Kyurem-Black
  • Kyurem-White
  • Lugia
  • Magearna
  • Mewtwo
  • Miraidon
  • Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
  • Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
  • Palafin
  • Rayquaza
  • Shaymin-Sky
  • Spectrier
  • Terapagos
  • Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
  • Urshifu
  • Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
  • Volcarona
  • Zacian
  • Zacian-Crowned
  • Zamazenta-Crowned
  • Zekrom
  • Leppa Berry as "item move" - no stalling
  • Weakness Policy as "item move" if it's also the base item - no easy setups ;)

Q&A :​


Q1 : Can my pokémon change its "knocked off" item ?​
A1 : Yes, or even when it's stolen.​
Q2 : Is my pokémon blocked if it changes choice items ?​
A2 : No, the item property of the "item move" is set back to zero, so that players can choose another move instead. For example, if I click to replace a Choice Band by a Choice Scarf turn 1, I can safely choose any move next turn.​
Q3 : Can I change items meant to transform pokémons (like Ogerpon 's masks) ?​
A3 : Yes, though it can only modify move types, not the pokémon itself.​

Resources and more :​


  • Does it look fun to you ?
  • Do you see potentials mind games around offense-defense switches within this meta ?
  • Does it look compatible with terastalization ?
On approval
None yet
We used to have a format called dual wielding or something like that for multiple items, long story short, there isnt that much item variety in the game for this to be interesting (specially when the better items are way better than everything else, as most are very niche on their use) and is generally not worth giving up on anything for an item.

Another Idea for an OM- Zero Waste!
Any stat that you didn't put EVs into becomes 1, but the base stat gets transferred to the stat with the nature boost. (The stat with the + next to it)

For example, if I had my Pecharunt have 0 attack, defence or special defence evs, with a +Sp.Atk nature, it would have 336 base points added onto its Sp.Atk, at the cost of having 1 in each of its bulks.

Bans- All Uber/AG pokemon, Hoopa Unbound, Shed tail, Last respects, Baton pass, Trick Room, Moody, Shadow Tag, Arena trap

Threats- Iron Valient, Dragapult, Focus Sash (with 1HP), Sturdy (With 1HP),Trick room (with 1 Speed).

Mixed attackers and bulky pokemon would be amazing in this meta, since they can lose their Non Offensive Stat/ bulk respectively and trade it for damage or speed!

While this is similar to Nature swap, you get a boost instead of just trading your stats.
Another thing is that priority moves would be invaluable in this meta, since if your opponent became a glass cannon, you can probably ohko before they move, so maybe priority would be banned (just the attacks to be clear). On the other hand this would be the best conterplay to so many Offensive pokemon.

Please give feedback so that this can become bigger!
Doesnt sound too bad, but the excessive min maxing may end up turning this into a very fat format as offensive mons gets very frail so the even the somewhat passive walls can deal a lot of damage (specially when just two stats is enough to max out, as stats cap at 255 which limits this format a lot).
 
It was built around Min maxing, didn't really consider the 255 cap though. I was imagining passive mons like toxapex would be worse because of all the wall breakers with insane Offensive stats
 
If you were feeling ambitious you could run a 0 def+sp.def focus sash guard swap pokemon, so you tank a hit, then swap your abysmal bulk onto them and get their amazing Defenses in exchange. For example, bronzong could guard swap its bad bulk onto a stall mon, use trick room (If it gets a good read) and gyro ball would clean everything up. It also is immune to Toxic, the most common status move on stall.

Another strat is Endure custap Berry endeavour, with a priority move it kills everything if it runs 1HP, though only works once.

While both of the strategies can work, they are both extremely niche, and against a non-stall team the first one isn't very good
 
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While stall would be viable, garganacl, gholdengo, hatterene, and any Mold Breaker sweeper could absolutely check those kind of (horrendously degenerate) teams.
Any pokemon that is immune to status moves is an insane stallbreaker.
 
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Hey all, I’ve got an idea for a new one I’d like some feedback on. Scrolling through the index, I don’t believe we’ve ever had a Baton Pass OM!

Edit: This premise has been officially submitted for OM consideration. Thanks to everyone who pitched in on Discord, and stay tuned. :)

Relay Race

1. Premise

What if the effects of Baton Pass were applied every time a Pokémon hard switches out?

(To clarify, the effects of Baton Pass activating apply only to manual hard switching. This does not include pivot moves like U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn, Parting Shot, Teleport and Chilly Reception, or the forced switches of Roar, Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, Circle Throw, Red Card, Eject Button and Eject Pack. These moves and items function as they do in standard play, and may prove invaluable at diffusing any number for powerful strategies. A Pokemon fainting will not transfer any stat changes or transferable status effects.)

2. Premise question-answer

Baton Pass is a historically controversial move, to the point where it has been banned in standard play in every Generation since the third. The ability to transfer stat buffs and Substitutes between team members is understandably viewed as game breaking. Metas that permitted BP often contained uncompetitive and lazily built BP chain teams, which would win or lose at team preview, solely dependent on their opponents’ ability to disrupt them.

However, the premise of this OM explores an environment where the effects of Baton Pass are a known constant every time a Pokemon is withdrawn from battle. These mechanics become an anticipated element of the game which can be adequately prepared for, countered and even exploited. You may find Baton Pass a blessing or a hinderance, depending on the situation.

A rundown on the move from the Bulbapedia page states that “Baton Pass switches out the user, passing all temporary stat stage increases and decreases on to the Pokémon that replaces it in battle. Baton Pass also passes some volatile status conditions, namely confusion, getting pumped, escape prevention, Ability suppression, seeding, Curse, Substitute, Ingrain, Power Trick, Heal Block, Embargo, Perish Song, Magnet Rise, and Aqua Ring.”

Now, you may be inclined to think that a BP OM would be brainless. “Just stack stat boosts and sweep!” However, this would be short changing the potential depth of such a format.

Is creating a full boost passing chain team worth it if every member of your team becomes afflicted with Leech Seed? What if the whole team’s ability is suppressed with Gastro Acid? Or is constantly losing 25% of health due to Ghost-type Curse? What if your opponent uses Perish Song? Confusion also becomes much more disruptive as it also cannot be shaken off by manually switching. With this in mind, pivot moves like U-Turn and Volt Turn gain new utility to remove such negative effects, but using them also forfeits any accrued stat raises and places the user back at square one.

Are physical attackers doomed to impotence when Intimidate affects the whole team? Could Contrary or Defiant be effectively used to deter this, or a shared Focus Energy to crit through the drops?

Is Unaware ignoring any kind of opposing stat changes sufficient to defensively contain the strategy? Or will they find themselves still overwhelmed by moves such as Stored Power, Power Trip, Psychic Noise and Heal Block?

Furthermore, if stat boost passing is everywhere, why not try stat debuffing the opponent? Moves like Snarl, Mystical Fire, Fire Lash, Thunderous Kick, Apple Acid’s debuf secondary effects are passed as well and become especially potent when transferred between teammates.

With all this considered, I believe an OM with Baton Pass being a core mechanic could create some wild interactions, inspire creative team building and spur some fun battle scenarios.

3. Clauses

Standard OMs, Sleep Moves Clause

Terastilization may be permitted at the launch of the OM, in order to explore its interactions with the format, and allow the community to decide if it is a good fit.

With the premise of the tier, I see no reason not to allow the move Baton Pass, with use of the move encouraging scouting in the instance of the opponent hard switches, and granting the user a momentum advantage.

Similarly, as Sub passing will be permitted at the launch of the OM, Shed Tail is also not broken, when viewed in this context.

4. Strats

I anticipate an offensive and balance focused OM, with the go to strat being stacking multiple boosts across Pokemon who would otherwise be unable to raise their own stats. Full stall may struggle to make waves due to powerful afflictions such as Heal Block, Leech Seed and Perish Song.

That’s not to say defense on Balance teams won’t have a place, as Unaware becomes very valuable in defusing opposing accrued boosts. Similarly, Phazers with bulk or Sturdy, such as Whirlwind Skarmory or Red Card Mimikyu. Haze itself is also extremely handy, making mons like Unaware Clodsire valuable.

Debuffing the opponent with transferable afflictions like Leech Seed, Curse and Confusion, as well as stat drops, should prove effective, as the effects cannot be removed simply by switching out.

The only way to remove negative afflictions is to use pivot moves, so U-Turn and its clones should have a place in the meta as a “reset button” on many teams.

Ditto may flip the script on stat passing Strats, and abilities like Opportunist and Dancer may be valuable for hoping in to copy anticipated stat boosts.

Magic Bounce is similarly handy, and Magic Guard blocks damaging afflictions such as Curse and Leech Seed.

Speedy Taunt and Encore users will be handy for disrupting strats.

Gastro Acid seems potentially strong, being able to cancel the opponent’s ability for their entire team.

Leech Seed will be very annoying, but counterplay exists in Grass types, Magic Guard, Magic Bounce and Gholdengo.

Ghost-type Curse should prove be very scary. For the cost of sacrificing half one your mon’s HP, you get to chunk 25% of your opponents’ whole teams’ HP, every turn, until one faints.

Aqua Ring and Ingrain may be valuable picks, providing entire teams with passive recovery.

Gholdengo seems like an S-tier mon, being immune to most BP transferable effects, as well as resisting Dragon Tail and immune to Circle Throw and Rapid Spin, who’s speed boosting effect is transferable between teammates. If it is not entirely broken, it would undoubtedly be centralizing to the point it would be near obligatory on every team. However, its presence could prove beneficial for the tier, due to its stabilizing effect.

5. Power Level / Quickbans

The starting power level is equal that of OU.

Following a bit of debate on Discord, the only unanimous Quickban the community deeemed necessary at launch was Speed Boost. Free speed boosts for the whole team, in tandem with Protect and passing other stat boosts, are inherently broken and unhealthy. Prior to ladder testing, this is the only quickban I will strongly advocate for.

Other potentially unhealthy elements discussed worth keeping an eye one will include Intimidate, which will limit physical attackers across the whole opposing team, but also having a degree of counterplay with the Intimidate blocking abilities, as well as Defiant, Competitive and Contrary.

Focus Energy may be one of the most powerful offensive tools, given increased crit chance granting a team the ability to break through offensive debuffs and defensive boosts, and on both sides of the attacking spectrum, no less.

Substitute / Shed Tail may prove problematic, but phazing and sound moves provide counterplay worth exploring.

Stored Power and Power Trip may be overwhelming, due to their compounded damage with shared stat boosts of any kind, making them ideal endgame boost recipients, and especially with their ability to break through Unaware monsters.

Gholdengo, Ditto, and Kommo-O all may need to be assessed. Dengo’s Good as Gold ability blocks nearly all Baton Pass transferable effects and attempts at phazing. Ditto’s Imposter steals the opponent’s boosts for free, while also nullifying stat debuffs. Kommo-O has access to the best omni- boosting move in the format, Clangorous Soul.
 
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5 Moves :pika:

Premise

It's just regular Pokemon but you get to pick 5 moves instead of the usual 4.

Crazy, right? I bet no one thought of this before... xD

Bans and Threats
None to begin with or just stick with the current already banned Pokemon from the format 5 Moves is being made about.

For Example: 5 Moves GEN 9 OU or 5 Moves VGC 2025 Reg G.

Comments/Discussion:

Everyone thought at least once in their lives... "Oh, man! I wish I could fit one more move...". :changry:

:wo: So what if all Pokemon could?
What would happen to the meta? Would it stay the same? Would Pokemon that suffer from the 4-move syndrome finally get a chance to shine? Fun new strategies? Or would it just make the best Pokemon in the meta better and change nothing?

It's really exciting to watch this unfold!

:tyke: I would love for this to be Doubles VGC (Insert current format) and OU (Insert current gen).

It has to be something that keeps up with what's new up to date, otherwise, there is no fun in watching the "new" 5 moves meta evolve compared to the regular 4 moves meta of the popular genres people are already playing.

It can only work if implemented directly into Showdown so people, especially casuals, see it exists and if it stays up to date with current meta-games. This way it wouldn't lose the purpose of discovering what would happen if the Pokemon had one more move slot!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:pip: The best meta-games have very simple ideas behind them... Almost Any Ability, Stabmons, Balanced Hackmons. It's just a cool "what if?".

I was honestly surprised this wasn't implemented before, and if it did and flop I'm pretty sure it's because of one of the reasons I cited above: not in the main site so casual players will play in the ladder or not up to date with current meta-games (no point in playing).

And Why Stop at regular meta-games? 5 moves is just a slightly different category of already existing meta-games.

For example, the "5 Moves" meta-game could be implemented not only to up-to-date current VGC and OU formats but also Almost Any Ability and now popular Alphabet Cup.

Making it super easy to implement! Just copy the balance/bans from what's out there and the starting meta is already set. Let the 5 Moves shake it and scramble what we are already playing!

There is no way this meta-game wouldn't be one of the most fun out there.

TL;DR:
5 Moves meta-game will certainly die when a new format drops, and it needs to be updated somewhat "constantly" to the new Regulation or Gen (or recent favorites "Other Metagames").

Pros: It's easy to implement (5 moves instead of 4), easy to understand and begin playing, easy to balance in the beginning (just copy whatever is allowed in regular formats), and mostly important... sounds like a ton of fun!

Cons: None.

So... why not?

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk! I really wish I could play this and I'm certain there are at least a few of us out there that would love to see this. I will finally get enough coverage on my Infernape... certainly this will be enough to make him meta... r-right?! :worrywhirl:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, if the idea is "too simple", instead of 5 moves to every Pokemon, if the community prefers, it could be only 1 Pokemon in the team that gets the possibility of learning 5 moves, making it more of a guessing game. But that would be just worse V-moves or something. I don't like this.

If I get the answer "we've tried already", or "no one cared", or "It died in gen 5" please please pretty please consider trying again!
 
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5 Moves :pika:

Premise

It's just regular Pokemon but you get to pick 5 moves instead of the usual 4.

Crazy, right? I bet no one thought of this before... xD

Bans and Threats
None to begin with or just stick with the current already banned Pokemon from the format 5 Moves is being made about.

For Example: 5 Moves GEN 9 OU or 5 Moves VGC 2025 Reg G.

Comments/Discussion:

Everyone thought at least once in their lives... "Oh, man! I wish I could fit one more move...". :changry:

:wo: So what if all Pokemon could?
What would happen to the meta? Would it stay the same? Would Pokemon that suffer from the 4-move syndrome finally get a chance to shine? Fun new strategies? Or would it just make the best Pokemon in the meta better and change nothing?

It's really exciting to watch this unfold!

:tyke: I would love for this to be Doubles VGC (Insert current format) and OU (Insert current gen).

It has to be something that keeps up with what's new up to date, otherwise, there is no fun in watching the "new" 5 moves meta evolve compared to the regular 4 moves meta of the popular genres people are already playing.

It can only work if implemented directly into Showdown so people, especially casuals, see it exists and if it stays up to date with current meta-games. This way it wouldn't lose the purpose of discovering what would happen if the Pokemon had one more move slot!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

:pip: The best meta-games have very simple ideas behind them... Almost Any Ability, Stabmons, Balanced Hackmons. It's just a cool "what if?".

I was honestly surprised this wasn't implemented before, and if it did and flop I'm pretty sure it's because of one of the reasons I cited above: not in the main site so casual players will play in the ladder or not up to date with current meta-games (no point in playing).

And Why Stop at regular meta-games? 5 moves is just a slightly different category of already existing meta-games.

For example, the "5 Moves" meta-game could be implemented not only to up-to-date current VGC and OU formats but also Almost Any Ability and now popular Alphabet Cup.

Making it super easy to implement! Just copy the balance/bans from what's out there and the starting meta is already set. Let the 5 Moves shake it and scramble what we are already playing!

There is no way this meta-game wouldn't be one of the most fun out there.

TL;DR:
5 Moves meta-game will certainly die when a new format drops, and it needs to be updated somewhat "constantly" to the new Regulation or Gen (or recent favorites "Other Metagames").

Pros: It's easy to implement (5 moves instead of 4), easy to understand and begin playing, easy to balance in the beginning (just copy whatever is allowed in regular formats), and mostly important... sounds like a ton of fun!

Cons: None.

So... why not?

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk! I really wish I could play this and I'm certain there are at least a few of us out there that would love to see this. I will finally get enough coverage on my Infernape... certainly this will be enough to make him meta... r-right?! :worrywhirl:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, if the idea is "too simple", instead of 5 moves to every Pokemon, if the community prefers, it could be only 1 Pokemon in the team that gets the possibility of learning 5 moves, making it more of a guessing game. But that would be just worse V-moves or something. I don't like this.

If I get the answer "we've tried already", or "no one cared", or "It died in gen 5" please please pretty please consider trying again!
As good of an idea this is, it haves some problems. The main one is that to make it work, you’d have to change sets in import rather than just in the builder.

Another thing is that this doesn’t seem to be that much of a change to anything. I know a couple of Pokemon would be more viable but to me this is just going to end up being OU but they have two of their sets combined.

Most OMs that deal in 5th moves due so on other circumstances. In Gen 8, Broken Record added a 5th move if you had a Technical Record equipped, and it would be the move in the TR that was added. It had a small tradeoff where you now have functionally no item for that 5th move. Force of the Fallen gave a Pokémon up to 9 moves, but those moves had to come from fallen teammates.

As a side tangent I once suggested an OM where you get the last move of the pokemon above you in the builder, and the first move of the pokemon below you in the builder. It was shut down because changing one mon would end up likely changing the entire team and team building would suck. In the end, happy it got denied.

But that is to say that 5th move metagames aren’t somehow dismissed because they’re done and barely even an OM, but because that there’s room for a more inspired one. I’ve tried my hand at that, but I think somewhere in the realm of additional move metagames there’s something out there that will end up being perfect.
 
Another thing is that this doesn’t seem to be that much of a change to anything. I know a couple of Pokemon would be more viable but to me this is just going to end up being OU but they have two of their sets combined.
addressing this specifically, this might just be a natdex thing, but do you have any idea how much I hear the term four move slot syndrome?
 
I understand how 4mss operates. I'm going to find some OU Pokemon to show what I posit would happen in a 5 move OM.

:ss/Great Tusk:
Great Tusk has 5 moves now. It will always use Headlong Rush, Ice Spinner, and Rapid Spin. The thing that separates its sets from one another is the items and final moves. What ends up happening if you have 5 moves is that you combine two or three of its sets. Bulk Up, CC, Knock, Stealth Rocks, and sometimes Head Smash. These are what end up differentiating sets. With 5 moves, you are combining two of its sets, not adding some game altering strategy onto it.

:ss/Cinderace:
This has only one set. What does it do now? Combines variations of that set. It's hardly 4mss, but its still doing the variations of the one thing it does.

:ss/Kingambit:
Literally just runs Low Kick now. Does anyone expect different?

I don't think I'm being clear but this wouldnt really introduce new strategies into mons, just either ingraining them in existing sets more or combining their sets/variations. Looking at a modern OU it's less about finding out what moves are on the Starmie so you know that you know whether your Dnite beats it or not, and more of a "he has a Kingambit so I have a Great Tusk that beats him every time." 4mss goes away, true, but the matchups go virtually unchanged.
 
The thing about this is... we all think we know what might happen. But we have no way of knowing for sure until we play it.

Maybe in OU in fact it won't change that much, but in doubles formats (which is already complex enough with 4 moves), I guarantee you that even if the meta Pokemon don't change, making decisions, plays, reads, will be so much different and fun. It's a new spin on the game.

Just the fact that Protect is now "free" changes so much in the teambuilding alone!

Sure Incineroar in VGC formats will become even more unbearable with Fake Out, Parting Shot and +3 moves to choose from. But we don't know what that means. Maybe it means specific counters will appear, or that it will be banned. Ot it will indeed continue to dominate! The only way to know is to try it out and watch the meta develop!

Getting turns "right" will be tougher, that's for sure.

Same thing for the Low Kick Kingambit, even if "no one expects any different" and it just runs that, how will this impact your turn? Will you switch out? Risk a Sucker Punch? What if your 5th move is a treat as well? How will he respond?

I can't be convinced it will not be fun. Even if it's "basic", the fun of "5 Moves" is in adding complexity.

As for singles OU, I can't say much more because I'm more of a VGC guy, but I would love to see Joey from Pokeaimd try it out for example. The real fun is in top-tier play. Maybe for you and me, it won't change much, but I can guarantee you it will change a lot for the top players of the ladder.

This format may allow shenanigans such as skill swap, and other BS stuff such as baton pass to be able to work since now you can work with one more move.
This means that instead of committing only to one mode or strategy, you may be able to have 2 possible win conditions on the team or Pokemon and possibly 3 where you would have 2. Maybe you get an unexpected Destiny Bond or status condition that changes everything!

This allows for more setup, more disruption, more combos, more interactions, more Pokemon, and finally (obviously) more moves!

Come on, I'm sure it will be fun to at least try it out!

PS: Just the fact this is already creating discussions about what "would" happen, I would argue this proves the point that this 5 Moves metagame is naturally fun and intuitive. You guys already know what moves you would fit in your 5th slot! Isn't that something worth trying out?
Imagine all the Pokemon you could faint with that juicy Low-Kick Kingambit. :pip:

I think we as humans tend to forget that adding what seems like just a slightly 25% increase to the move pool, also means that we are adding 25% complexity to something that is already incredibly complex: the entire Pokemon game. Chaos theory says it will surprise all of us.

-----------------------------------

About the code: I'm sure there is someone out there that can find a workaround to this problem, the community is big enough to have a lot of big brain devs. I'm trusting you guys on that one, I can't help it there ^^'
 
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Almost all OM ideas offer new shenanigans and will be “fun to at least try it out”. However, if the OM does not differ significantly from standard gameplay, then in the long term, it likely will not be that fun, as implied by BandedBodyPress.

Also, your OM idea is arguably a lighter version of Force of the Fallen.
 
Clickmons
This name isn't final, but I want the name to invoke stupidity.

Premise: Status moves are banned.

Changes: Stall is dead.
Crab Rave GIF - Crab Rave Dancing - Discover & Share GIFs
Moves with secondary effects will become a lot more powerful. Kleavor and Hisuian Samurott will be a lot better. Draining attacks could become more useful. Setup would obviously be a lot harder to do. I don't see moves like Power-Up-Punch becoming a problem, but moves like Torch Song very much could.

Potential Bans/Unbans: A lot of the overpowered setup sweepers that got banned would probably be fine. There could be a lot of Unbans. I'm not sure a whole lot would be worthy of a ban, but Glimora I feel is a top contender.
OH FUCK ASSAULT VEST!

Questions:
Should you ban Regenerator? Possibly. It seems a little powerful, but I don't think there are that many Pokemon with Regenerator that could do much in this metagame?
Is this too simple? I don't think so. There are still a bunch of options that all Pokemon have. There are so many different effects of moves that I think things could be very interesting.
 
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Clickmons
This name isn't final, but I want the name to invoke stupidity.

Premise: Status moves are banned.

Changes: Stall is dead.
Crab Rave GIF - Crab Rave Dancing - Discover & Share GIFs
Moves with secondary effects will become a lot more powerful. Kleavor and Hisuian Samurott will be a lot better. Draining attacks could become more useful. Setup would obviously be a lot harder to do. I don't see moves like Power-Up-Punch becoming a problem, but moves like Torch Song very much could.

Potential Bans/Unbans:A lot of the overpowered setup sweepers that got banned would probably be fine. There could be a lot of Unbans. I'm not sure a whole lot would be worthy of a ban, but Glimora I feel is a top contender.

This premise appeals to my ooga booga reptilian brain whose goal in life is click buttons and break stuff. The name is perfect.

However, I also wonder if the premise is too simple. Perhaps it could include status moves in some less accessible or unconventional way? Maybe something akin to Trademarked so each of your Pokemon could have some kind of utility on switch in while also just clicking attacks while they’re in? Maybe that deviates from your concept too much, I dunno….

Regardless. I feel like any mon with Regenerator would immediately be elevated in such a format, as that is the only semblance of defense in such an environment. You might want to consider banning Regenerator, or at least have an ability clause, lest teams simply pack every available Regenerator in order to have any semblance of longevity and simply outlast the opponent in a war of attrition.

Edit: If this premise ever becomes a playable format, can the banner OP please be Annihilape smashing a large red button with a club? I need this in my life.
 
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Almost all OM ideas offer new shenanigans and will be “fun to at least try it out”. However, if the OM does not differ significantly from standard gameplay, then in the long term, it likely will not be that fun, as implied by BandedBodyPress.

Also, your OM idea is arguably a lighter version of Force of the Fallen.

I don't know, I don't see how a 5 move game wouldn't be a general community-appreciated game mode. If you ask both casual and try-hard players I'm almost certain the majority wouldn't oppose having the option to play it.

The name alone "5 Moves (x metagame)" would attract eyes and players in the options tab of showdown.

The only people who would oppose an idea like this are exactly the people who are reading this: the sort that reviews game mode ideas constantly, to be honest.

That's because you guys have other stuff to compare with and heard hundreds of ideas before. So of course 5 moves will sound boring. I never heard of Force of the Fallen, and most Pokemon players probably never will. A 5 Move metagame is inherently good because it's simple to understand and does not deviate too much from standard gameplay. That is the selling point, not its weakness.

Most game modes fail in popularity because they try too hard to differentiate itself apart for the sake of being different instead of giving people what they want. No one wakes up one day and thinks "Oh man, I wish I could play a metagame where the 4th move that my last Pokemon that fainted passes to my new Pokemon, it would be sick!".

People do wish they could fit a 5th move on their Pokemon, though. I really think it will be a disservice to shrug this off. Not to mention smogon/showdown has everything aligned to make this meta-game work: the player base, accessibility, and the interest. It will fail everywhere else.

And again, we keep talking about the future of the game mode without trying it (we can't know), and for that matter, you implied it will be fun in the beginning which is against your own point. So why are people so negative to the point of rejecting what they think will be fun?

I don't know what else to tell you guys doubters. Maybe y'all too scared of my 5 move physical-special mix Infernape
chimchar.png
 
The only people who would oppose an idea like this are exactly the people who are reading this: the sort that reviews game mode ideas constantly, to be honest.

I understand the frustration at having people shoot your idea down, and you’re probably right to say 5 Moves would appeal to casual players, but the OM community is precisely who you have to appeal to and engage with in order to develop a playable OM. Also, you would have to compete with other submissions and pre-established OMs for votes to grant it a OMotM ladder. The premise has to stand on its own merits against others, and statements like this are probably not the best way to advocate for your concept.

I don’t want to dogpile on you, as I don’t even think 5 Moves is a bad idea necessarily, but I do agree with the sentiment that in practice, it probably wouldn’t differentiate itself enough from standard play, except that it would make certain mons more broken, and thus needing to be banned.

Consider this: why did GF originally make 4 moves per pokemon the default? I think it’s because it forces compromises. Creativity often comes from limitations and working around them. Think about set up sweepers like Dragonite: It’s got a great move pool, but it is forced to make choices with its limited 4 moves. It can’t use all of Dragon Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Outrage, Fire Punch and Hurricane, so it will always be walled or revenged by something. If it has five moves off the bat, it just becomes a brain dead game ender that lacks defensive and offensive checks, and doesn’t even need to be cleared for a sweep. Where’s the trade off?

Look at existing OMs like Force of the Fallen and Partners in Crime, both of which have a bit more going on besides their concepts of granting extra moves to mons. Sometimes more simple is better, but I personally rather like that there exists a trade off for extra moves in both of those OMs.

Just spitballing ideas for 5 Moves to offer some constructive feedback: Maybe there could be a different tradeoff for getting their fifth move? Maybe they would need to secure a KO before getting access to it? Maybe they would need to use all of their other four moves first? Maybe they need to forgo their item or ability to get the extra move? Maybe they steal one of the moves of the pokemon they KO?

Edit: Here’s an idea! Maybe your pokemon all have access to five moves, but they only get to use any of them once each time they’re active in battle. Now, that is a nice tradeoff.
 
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Originally approved by The Immortal, Swaggy-G, and others, Thanks to Urkerab for hosting previously
This is a thread for bouncing your OM ideas off the community at large before posting them in the OM Submissions subforum. Anyone is welcome to post in this thread, either to request help with an idea or to offer feedback.

- Please read the Guidelines for posting before posting. As always all Smogon rules apply in this thread.
- Please ensure your submission is not on the list of Commonly Rejected Metagames or a current metagame. It helps us a lot to not have to turn away the same metas over and over.
- As cool as our Submissions Staff are, and as valuable as their input is, please be mindful that they may not be able to give you feedback on your idea immediately. It's alright to ask them if they'll look at the idea, but do not pester them if they cannot do it at that moment.

This is me, your host, and a member of the Submissions Staff! I'll be giving the majority of the feedback here, so don't be shy about approaching me over a concept.
:dewott: KaenSoul

Now it's time to meet our other Submissions Staff! These users are in charge of approving new metagames, and their feedback should be given first priority, as they will be the ones ultimately approving or denying your metagame.

dhelmise - Leader
Giagantic - Leader

Gimmicky - Moderator
berry - Moderator
Ransei - Moderator
Tea Guzzler - Moderator


There are also our Submissions Readers, who are involved in the process of providing suggestions and feedback for new metagames in our Submissions Forum.
:nidoking:berry
:whimsicott:Eli
:zoroark-hisui:Instruct


Guideline for posting:
Main Points:
  1. Workshop submissions are limited to one per week.
    • There is a one week cooldown on posting ideas in the workshop. This is to prevent the rapid-fire spam of undeveloped ideas and instead encourage well-thought-out ideas which can be given the time and attention they need.
  2. Make sure your metagame premise follows our rules
    • Does your metagame idea already exist? Does it follow the general rules of Other Metagames? Have you read our outline for submissions? Make sure to research before posting. (More details on our outline and rules below) NOTE: Other Metagames does not support National Dex formats, so this is not the place to suggest such metagames.
  3. Have you read up on our Submissions guidelines?
    • If the community and/or our submissions team shows interest in your metagame, have you read our Submission rules and OP Format? Most importantly, do you meet the requirements to lead a metagame, and have you considered who will co-lead this metagame with you?

In order to make a preliminary outline of your submission idea, all you need to do is fill out this brief form (subject to change):

Metagame premise:
Potential bans and threats:
Questions for the community:

Some more information on each:
  • Metagame premise. Keep this succinct. In general, the metagames with the simplest changes are the ones that succeed. If you can't describe this in a single sentence (even a long one), you should go back to the drawing board. This includes adding a secondary concept such as National Dex to your meta. Also, you should have a fully formed idea.
    • YES: "Pokemon get access to all of their STAB moves."
    • NO: "I want to do something with STAB moves."
  • Potential bans and threats. This can be pretty brief and should also potentially include sample sets if you have them.
    • YES (this would be part of an answer): "Dragonite will be very powerful and suspect-worthy, given that it can set up using Multiscale and then mega evolve to gain a different ability like Aerilate (insert Dragonite set)."
    • NO: "I think Pokemon that can set up easily would be difficult to beat."
  • Questions for the community. Be specific. Ask the most important questions.
    • YES: "How should I address Pokemon that change form in the middle of a battle?"
    • YES: "Does the name 'Pokemoncansketchonemoveoutsideoftheirnormalmovepool-mons' express the metagame's premise clearly enough? Is it too specific?"
    • NO: "What Pokemon would be good?"
    • NO: "How should I capitalize 'Stabmons'?"

Commonly Rejected Metagame Ideas:
Important:
Other Metagames does not support National Dex formats, any metagame ideas for that would either fall under the National Dex or Pet Mods sections. Make sure that your metagame has a single, mechanically consistent concept!
Common Submissions
STATS
  • Ooh what if we swapped X stat with X stat: No, we have enough of those.
  • Mr Mime For Ubers!: Make all pokemon Uber level in terms of power/bulk.
  • My formula is not complex: OM concepts that use formulas to calculate Pokemon stats. We have a lot of these already.
ABILITIES
  • I Sure Love Ability X: All/Some Pokemon get X ability over their normal abilities. Metas where X = Poison Heal/WonderGuard/Prankster have been rejected.
  • Huge Power is so cool!: All/Some Pokemon get Huge Power (or a Huge Power variant for another stat using rule X).
MOVES
  • STAB moves are the best: You can only use your moves you get STAB in.
  • Hate good moves: Only level up moves allowed/TMs disallowed/only unviable(or "Usually useless moves" from PS builder) moves allowed.
MECHANICS
  • Priority Moves suck!: All moves have the same priority (0).
  • Random: Your Pokemon's moveset/ability/typing is randomized but you get to pick the rest.
  • Zombies: Pokemon don't die upon fainting the first time. Matches can be won by [insert rule here].
  • Ew who switches: Switching is not allowed or hindered in some way.
  • Nice Death: All Pokemon come into the field with Perish Song/Mons faint after X turns.
  • Only 6 pokemon? PLEASE: You can use X (X = 6+n) Pokemon in your team.
  • Hoarding: Pokemon can hold X items (where X = 1+n).
  • I like old gens: Current Pokemon with X Generation's mechanics
  • Inheritance but not: A metagame that is Inheritance with one extra step. Please no more fake Inheritances.
BANS / BUILDING RESTRICTIONS
  • Man I hate these Pokemon: X Pokemon/X Typed Pokemon are banned.
  • Chaining: Primary type of a Pokemon in a slot must be the Secondary type of the Pokemon in the slot before it.
  • Budgetmons: The total base stat in your team must not exceed X/The total value of your team must not exceed X, with individual Pokemon being assigned values like this: [insert rule here].
  • I want to be a Smogon Tier Leader when I grow up: Tiers made up of Underused(/Bad in ubers) Uber pokemon or a usage based tier under ZU. Basically, no usage based tiers.
  • Monocolor: All the Pokemon in your team must share the same Dex color.
  • My in-game team would beat YOUR in-game team: Only X Pokemon allowed, where X is based on an in-game arena or similar.
OTHER / MULTIPLE
  • OM X and Y are so good: Mashing up two OM concepts to pass off as a new one. (Your OM can be similar to another one but it should be a new concept that adds something new or interesting/improves the existing one, assuming the existing one is dead). Check out the OM Mashup Megathread for Mashups of multiple OMs!
  • ABCAB: Pokemon learn moves and abilities that start with the first letter of their names but we have a ton of complex bans to try and balance it!
  • I Know my egg groups!: Pokemon have access to moves/abilities of Pokemon in the same egg group.
(Almost) Everything Else
  • 2v2 Singles: You can use only 2 Pokemon to battle.
  • 6 Mix: Your 6 Pokemon must have their best stat in a different category.
  • 24 Moves: Every move your pokemon have, are shared between the rest of the pokemon, giving all of them 24 moves in total.
  • Abilimash: All abilities starting with the same letter are mashed together.
  • Ability Share: Pokemon that share a common ability gain access to all possible abilities those Pokemon can have.
  • Adaptamons: Only ability that Pokemon can use is Adaptability. Luckily, they all get it too.
  • Allocation Wars: Pokemon EVs determine the base stat. e.g 252 speed EVs = 252 base speed.
  • Alphabet Attributes: Pokemon gain boosts based on the first letter of their name.
  • Alpha Order Mons: Pokemon can only use the first 4 or last 4 moves they learn.
  • AscentMons: Everything learns Dragon Ascent.
  • Ban Bird: All Bird Pokemon are banned. (Flying Type + Bird based pokemon)
  • Chainmons: There are no team building restrictions, but in battle you can only switch to a mon that shares a type.
  • Change-Type Mons: Types change to the Type directly after it alphabetically.
  • Chessmons: Mixed Tier teambuilding based on chess pieces. http://pastebin.com/TKu9u08w
  • ChoicedMons: All Pokemon must be holding a Choice Item.
  • C-M(Classic-Modern) OU: OU with some old mechanics brought back and some newly created ones introduced.
  • Color Catastrophe: Pokemon get new moves based on Dex color.
  • Confidence: KOing a pokemon with Attacks/Special Attacks raises the stat by 1. Being unable to KO lowers the stat by 1.
  • Conversation Parade: Pokemon can learn any move from another Pokemon's movepool as long as they share a type (minus smeargle).
  • Consistency Mons: "Hax Mechanics" are changed to become formulated, rather than random.
  • Crazy Field: A random field effect will activate when a battle starts, and will stay until the end.
  • Custom Stat: You can customize your Pokemon's base stat using moveslots. The stats are calculated using: (Base Power) x 1.5. Your base stat total cannot exceed 720.
  • Deal Back Double: For every super effective hit that a Pokemon takes, they deal double of the damage that they took, to the foe that damaged them.
  • Defeatistmons: All Pokemon get defeatist.
  • Delaymons: All moves work like Doom Desire.
  • Delta Wars: All pokes gets "Delta Stream" like ability on top of their original ability, which nullifies the weaknesses of the poke's secondary type (because of Mega Rayquaza).
  • Dexmons: Pokémon get the moves from the evolutionary lines above and below themselves in the National Pokedex.
  • Direct Contact: Pokemon can only use moves that directly affect their opponent.
  • Duotype: Pokemon in your team must have either Type A or Type B.(A & B are different types)
  • Eggy Stat Boosts: Base stat increases handed out based on egg group.
  • Extremesped: Moves in slot 1 get +2 Priority.
  • Family Values: Doubles Based, your team must have 3 pairs of Pokemon; each pair must have 2 Pokemon from the same evolution change and they must battle together.
  • Feather Cup: Pokemon's Speed stat is replaced by it's weight.
  • Fermentation: All held items take an extra turn to come into effect.
  • Four Boosts: 4 stat ranges get a multiplier. Lower stat ranges = Larger Multiplier.
  • Freedom-Mons: You can teambuild, but battles work like they do in Emerald's Battle Palace.
  • Fully Evolved LC: Fully evolved pokemon can be used in LC, but must be level 5 and are confined to moves they can learn at level 5.
  • Funkymons: Pokemon/Move's typings change based on given chart.
  • Gotta Go Fast: All Pokemon get Speed Boost + Are afflicted with Perish Song when they switch in.
  • Group Eggs-Change: Pokemon can learn any move from it's other members in it's egg group.
  • Hazard Mashup: All hazards are the same type as the primary type of the Pokemon using it.
  • Highblock: Pokemon cannot use their highest stats.
  • Huge Stat: All Pokemon gets a clone of Huge Power that doubles their lowest stat.
  • Illegal Mons: Pokemon can use any moves bar the ones they can normally learn.
  • Intense Gravity: The field is affected by permanent Gravity (the field effect) and is not removable.
  • Interdependence: Slots 1&2, 3&4, 5&6 are linked. If a pokemon from a linked slot (slot 1) dies, so does the Pokemon in the other linked slot (slot 2).
  • Inverted Status: All status effects (with secondary effects) do the opposite of what they normally do.
  • JudgmentMons: Every Pokemon learns Judgment.
  • Leg Up: Pokemon in tiers lower than OU can have more than 4 moves. Lower tier = more slots. The extra slots can be used to use moves that are not in the Pokemon's movepool.
  • Let it evolve: Pokemon with an evolution can evolve midbattle once to that evolution.
  • Lightweights: All pokemon's base speed is recalculated using the formula new speed = 150/([weight]^1/5)
  • Max PP Revision: PP cannot be increased from the base number. AKA no PP Max/PP Up.
  • MewMons: Provided your highest stat is below 150, all your stats reach that same level.
  • Minimons: Only pokemon that are 2'00" feet or lower (0.6m) are allowed.
  • Mixmons: Highest offensive stat become both Attack and Special Attack. Highest defensive stat (not HP) becomes both Defense and Special Defense.
  • Moodymons: All Pokemon have Moody on top of their original ability.
  • Move Bridge: Pokemon can gain access to another Pokemon's ability if they have a move that the other Pokemon can learn in their moveset.
  • No NFE Tier Shift: Lower Tiered Pokemon get boosts to make them OU viabile, however, NFEs do not recieve said boosts.
  • OGmons: You can only use Gen1 Pokemon.
  • Overkill: If an attack does more damage than required to KO a pokemon, the surplus damage turns into a reward for the attacker.
  • Our Final Battle: If one of your pokemon faint, you lose.
  • Plate Expansion: Holding a Plate allows a Pokemon to learn every move of the Plate's corresponding type.
  • Pokemon Chess: Chess Based OM where role is decided based on team slot. There are prerequisites to qualify for a role and each role gets new toys. Player loses if Pokemon in King slot dies.
  • Pokemon Eviolution: Holding eviolite gives base stat boosts. Boosts vary based on base stats.
  • Pokemon Shuffle Showdown: Pokemon Shuffle based metagame.
  • Praise Mimez: All pokemon gain access to Mr. Mime's movepool and abilities.
  • Primal Soul: All Pokemon can become Primal using a "Primal Orb". They get offensive/defensive base stat changes based on shininess.
  • PriorityMons: Every Pokemon gets access to Prankster and every priority move.
  • Rank Shift: Pokemon are boosted based on their position in Tiers' viability rankings.
  • Redistribution: Stats are moved around according to what slot of the team each Pokemon is in.
  • Reverse Sleep Clause: You win if all your Pokemon are asleep but lose if all your opponent's Pokemon have fainted.
  • Sabeteur-mons: You swap teams with the opponent when the battle starts.
  • Secondary Effects Rebound: Moves' secondary effects affect the user of the move.
  • Sharing is Caring (foe edition): Items held Pokemon on the field are shared with the opposing Pokemon, meaning they are both affected by it (life orb on one pokemon means both lose hp when attacking.)
  • Simplemons: All Pokemon have the ability Simple alongside its regular ability.
  • Smogon Bird!: No species clause on Talonflame.
  • SNABmons: Pokemon get STAB boost on status moves that match its typing.
  • Statistical Abilities: Pokemon gain access to abilities of Pokemon with base stat totals equal to its base stat total.
  • Stat Borrow: Pokemon borrow the highest stat from another pokemon in their team and vice versa.
  • Stat Groups: Pokemon get base stat boosts based on their Experience Group.
  • Stat Reversal: Base Stats are flipped: 5 -> 50, 105->501, 30->3
  • Stat Share: There are three pairs on pokemon (Slot 1 + Slot 2, Slot 3 + Slot 4, Slot 5+ Slot 6). Each pair has their stats averaged down, and that becomes the stat spread for both pokemon.
  • Status Attack Switch: Status moves become attacks, and attacks with secondary effects become status moves.
  • Stick With It: All Stat changes and statuses stay even if the Pokemon switch out.
  • Survival Cup: Every team has one Pioneer. The way to win is by defeating the Pioneer. There is no team preview and you can't know who the pioneer is.
  • Switchmons: Every three turns, you are forced to switch out.
  • Take Half: Take half of one stat and add it too another based on Nature.
  • Team Stats: Pokemon in slots 1&2, 3&4, and 5&6 can swap their stats with each other, provided that at least one pokemon in each swappable position is shiny.
  • The Classroom: Little Cup based metagame where your Pokémon are grouped into 5 possible classes based on their highest base stat (disregarding HP): Warrior (Attack), Knight (Defence), Mage (Special Attack), Cleric (Special Defence) and Thief (Speed).
  • The Wobuffet meta: Pokemon have 6 moveslots: 4 moves you pick in the teambuilder + Mirror Coat and Counter.
  • Tiermons: Teams must have one Pokemon from every tier.
  • Time Gears On: You can reset the last 5 turns one time.
  • Trickle Down Stats: Pokemon's stats are passed to the Pokemon below it alphabetically in the Pokedex.
  • Turbo Items: Item effects are doubled.
  • Turns: At the end of ten turns, the one with the most alive Pokemon wins.
  • Typeless Battles: All types are replaced to become Normal type.
  • Type Mix: Dual typed pokes only has weaknesses of secondary typing but resistances and immunities of primary typing.
  • Type Trinity: Pokemon in slots 1-3 must form a type triangle (like Fire Water Grass) and the primary types of the Pokemon from slots 1-3 are added to slots 4-6 in this order: 1->4, 2->5, 3->6.
  • Unawaremons: Every Pokemon gets Unaware on top of its regular ability.
  • Underdogs: Pokemon with base stats below a certain threshold gain unique buffs to compensate.
  • Utility Belt: Pokémon may hold extra items which will be placed in their moveslots. Any moveslots occupied by items will not be able to have a move in them.
  • Weather or not!: Weather related items give the holder the power to summon said weather.

Submissions Guidelines:
The guidelines for OM Submissions can be found here.

Here are some other useful resources! Use these when you submit your OM to make it cleaner and more professional.
The Workshop - Request art here
OM Tiering Guidelines
OP Template

How do you know if your metagame is ready to be submitted?
There's no real rules that dictate exactly when your metagame idea is ready for OM Submissions, but it's recommended that you get feedback from the community first and have a strong idea of what direction you want to take your meta, as far as banlists, co-leader, and premise go. Additionally, a strong tell that your metagame is ready for submissions is if one of our moderators (Isaiah, KaenSoul, Ransei, Giagantic, Tea Guzzler, dhelmise, ) or other submission readers (Eli, iapt, Instruct, berry) like your post, it generally means your metagame has piqued our interest (feedback we give should be given highest priority as well.)

Make sure that you yourself fulfill the requirements to submit a metagame, and keep in mind that a user with more OM experience is likely to be taken more seriously in submissions.
Bro who the hell drawed dis?
 
I don't know, I don't see how a 5 move game wouldn't be a general community-appreciated game mode. If you ask both casual and try-hard players I'm almost certain the majority wouldn't oppose having the option to play it.

The name alone "5 Moves (x metagame)" would attract eyes and players in the options tab of showdown.

The only people who would oppose an idea like this are exactly the people who are reading this: the sort that reviews game mode ideas constantly, to be honest.

That's because you guys have other stuff to compare with and heard hundreds of ideas before. So of course 5 moves will sound boring. I never heard of Force of the Fallen, and most Pokemon players probably never will. A 5 Move metagame is inherently good because it's simple to understand and does not deviate too much from standard gameplay. That is the selling point, not its weakness.

Most game modes fail in popularity because they try too hard to differentiate itself apart for the sake of being different instead of giving people what they want. No one wakes up one day and thinks "Oh man, I wish I could play a metagame where the 4th move that my last Pokemon that fainted passes to my new Pokemon, it would be sick!".

People do wish they could fit a 5th move on their Pokemon, though. I really think it will be a disservice to shrug this off. Not to mention smogon/showdown has everything aligned to make this meta-game work: the player base, accessibility, and the interest. It will fail everywhere else.

And again, we keep talking about the future of the game mode without trying it (we can't know), and for that matter, you implied it will be fun in the beginning which is against your own point. So why are people so negative to the point of rejecting what they think will be fun?

I don't know what else to tell you guys doubters. Maybe y'all too scared of my 5 move physical-special mix Infernape View attachment 717328
5 move would have so many banned monsters like lucario who could just sweep
 
I don't know, I don't see how a 5 move game wouldn't be a general community-appreciated game mode. If you ask both casual and try-hard players I'm almost certain the majority wouldn't oppose having the option to play it.
The problem isn’t whether or not the community opposes playing the metagame, but if the community wants to play the metagame over other OMs.
Also, I'm quite sure the majority wouldn't oppose having the option to play any new metagame, not just 5 Moves. Nonunique argument.

A 5 Move metagame is inherently good because it's simple to understand and does not deviate too much from standard gameplay. That is the selling point, not its weakness.
Simplicity does not always equal a popular/fun format. I don't know what you are trying to say by "inherently good".

Most game modes fail in popularity because they try too hard to differentiate itself apart for the sake of being different instead of giving people what they want. No one wakes up one day and thinks "Oh man, I wish I could play a metagame where the 4th move that my last Pokemon that fainted passes to my new Pokemon, it would be sick!".
…except they do? Force of the Fallen is an OM already. Also, what do you mean by "differentiating itself apart for the sake of being different instead of giving people what they want" when the OM community already uses a nomination and popular voting system to decide the OMOTM?
Furthermore, us users talking here opposing your idea are also part of the "people".

People do wish they could fit a 5th move on their Pokemon, though. I really think it will be a disservice to shrug this off.
False assumption.

And again, we keep talking about the future of the game mode without trying it (we can't know), and for that matter, you implied it will be fun in the beginning which is against your own point. So why are people so negative to the point of rejecting what they think will be fun?
I didn't imply it will be fun; I implied it could be fun. We are being negative towards your idea because it will likely result in gameplay extremely similar to standard tiers, when the entire purpose of designing an OM is to significantly change up one or more aspects of gameplay in an interesting/fun manner.
In addition, you yourself can test your own format and see if it significantly differs from standard play by challenging others to custom games and asking them to use 5 moves per Pokemon.
 

Unsignaturemons :sphearical:

or Forgerymons or something idk, I'm still workshopping the name

Premise: What if every Pokémon could use any signature move or ability of their choice?

Changes: Every Pokémon can add any signature move to their moveset and use any signature ability, in addition to the ones they can already use. By signature move and signature ability, I don't just mean ones that are commonly considered signatures, I mean literally anything that has ever been a signature move or ability, so even Strength and Waterfall would become available to all because in Gen 1, only Goldeen and Seaking could learn Waterfall, and in Gen 7, only Machamp could learn Strength. This would significantly shake up the metagame, and giving Pokémon with bad learnsets and/or abilities a second chance at fame. This wouldn't change how some signature moves fail when used by a Pokémon that's not supposed to be able to use it, such as Aura Wheel, Dark Void, and Hyperspace Fury. Additionally, there would be a clause preventing every Pokémon on a team from using the same signature moves and abilities. Be creative, don't just spam the same thing over and over again!

Potential bans/unbans: I could see many non-legendary ubers getting unbanned, such as Annihilape, Baxcalibur, Flutter Mane, Palafin, and Volcarona. Regigigas and Slaking would have to be banned :( and there would also have to be some move restrictions such as Dragon Energy, Glare (look at Alphabet Cup for why), Shed Tail, Tail Glow, Victory Dance, Wicked Torque, and so on

Questions for the community: Should dexited moves be allowed? Should signature items also be made to work with any Pokémon? If yes to both of those, what about signature Z-Moves and G-Max Moves? Should Terastallization be banned from the get-go?
 

Unsignaturemons :sphearical:

or Forgerymons or something idk, I'm still workshopping the name

Premise: What if every Pokémon could use any signature move or ability of their choice?

Changes: Every Pokémon can add any signature move to their moveset and use any signature ability, in addition to the ones they can already use. By signature move and signature ability, I don't just mean ones that are commonly considered signatures, I mean literally anything that has ever been a signature move or ability, so even Strength and Waterfall would become available to all because in Gen 1, only Goldeen and Seaking could learn Waterfall, and in Gen 7, only Machamp could learn Strength. This would significantly shake up the metagame, and giving Pokémon with bad learnsets and/or abilities a second chance at fame. This wouldn't change how some signature moves fail when used by a Pokémon that's not supposed to be able to use it, such as Aura Wheel, Dark Void, and Hyperspace Fury. Additionally, there would be a clause preventing every Pokémon on a team from using the same signature moves and abilities. Be creative, don't just spam the same thing over and over again!

Potential bans/unbans: I could see many non-legendary ubers getting unbanned, such as Annihilape, Baxcalibur, Flutter Mane, Palafin, and Volcarona. Regigigas and Slaking would have to be banned :( and there would also have to be some move restrictions such as Dragon Energy, Glare (look at Alphabet Cup for why), Shed Tail, Tail Glow, Victory Dance, Wicked Torque, and so on

Questions for the community: Should dexited moves be allowed? Should signature items also be made to work with any Pokémon? If yes to both of those, what about signature Z-Moves and G-Max Moves? Should Terastallization be banned from the get-go?
Answering some of your questions:
  • Ban Terastallization right away (a la Sketchmons and Pokemoves) - there's at least one signature attack for each type, so any Pokemon can gain STAB on any type they want and get that STAB move for themselves.
  • Move restrictions likely have to be even more expansive, and Annihilape likely needs to be re-banned again even with a Rage Fist restriction unless Rage Fist is banned outright - CAP notably had to ban Rage Fist, even though only one more fully evolved Ghost-type (Necturna) learned it in the meta. Also, remember back when Last Respects was signature to Houndstone?
  • Decide early if you want this meta's power level to be closer to Ubers UU or OU. Note that Flutter Mane, one of your unban candidates, has no signature moves and no signature ability, so unless its (rather few) predators are also free, Flutter Mane stocks can only go up.
 
Answering some of your questions:
  • Ban Terastallization right away (a la Sketchmons and Pokemoves) - there's at least one signature attack for each type, so any Pokemon can gain STAB on any type they want and get that STAB move for themselves.
  • Move restrictions likely have to be even more expansive, and Annihilape likely needs to be re-banned again even with a Rage Fist restriction unless Rage Fist is banned outright - CAP notably had to ban Rage Fist, even though only one more fully evolved Ghost-type (Necturna) learned it in the meta. Also, remember back when Last Respects was signature to Houndstone?
  • Decide early if you want this meta's power level to be closer to Ubers UU or OU. Note that Flutter Mane, one of your unban candidates, has no signature moves and no signature ability, so unless its (rather few) predators are also free, Flutter Mane stocks can only go up.
  • I was leaning heavily on the side of banning Tera from the get-go but thought it was worth asking anyway just to be sure
  • Rage Fist would be at the very least restricted due to obvious reasons, so a ban isn't out of the question. Also, no I don't remember back when Last Respects was signature to Houndstone, that must have been during the gap when I wasn't doing anything Pokémon related. Also I'm using Bulbapedia's pages on signature moves and signature abilities to identify what is or isn't signature, and they don't include signature moves from before DLC was released
  • I was thinking OU but I forgot how much of a menace Flutter Mane was when I wrote its name down :woop:
  • You didn't give responses to the parts about dexited signature moves, signature items, and signature Z-moves and G-Max moves. Do you just not have any strong opinions about those? Now that I'm writing this, I think including G-Max moves is a bad idea because I recall that if you make your Pokémon have one and play a custom game it has more than 1 PP, whereas the Z-moves always have 1
Also, thanks for the answers! I will take them into account and I appreciate you taking the time to respond!
 
  • You didn't give responses to the parts about dexited signature moves, signature items, and signature Z-moves and G-Max moves. Do you just not have any strong opinions about those? Now that I'm writing this, I think including G-Max moves is a bad idea because I recall that if you make your Pokémon have one and play a custom game it has more than 1 PP, whereas the Z-moves always have 1
Back then, I hadn't fully decided what to do with dexited moves or signature items, but now that I've had time to think some more, I believe adding dexited moves would start making this meta hybridize with Natdex, which is undesirable (especially since Natdex has its own OMs). Also, freeing signature items increases how complex implementing it is (it is no longer only adding legality checks; we now need to adjust item behaviours) and results in debates about form change-triggering items like Fist Plate and Rusted Sword (add the type changes and stat boosts or not?), so I'm against freeing them. If we do go down that route, ban Light Ball (2x to both offences? Uh oh).
 
PairMons
spoiler 1: know this is probably impossible to code and unbalanced in any case. I just thought it was a cool idea.
spoiler 2: workshopping the name, considering SiblingMons?


Have you, dear reader, ever played the hit game the Binding of Isaac? If so, have you, by some chance, encountered and beaten the hidden Mother boss? And, if such a scenario applies to you, my friend, by some wild coincidence, have you decided to actually use the character you unlocked? If you have, you know the absolute experience that is Jacob & Esau, simultaneously the most torturous and most fun runs you can have with this game. Sadly, as a mac-using troglodyte, I lost access to the game a while ago, which gave me enough trauma to successfully cause 2 braincells to rub together: What if Jacob & Esau but Pokemon?

Premise: you can have 2 Pokemon on the field at once in a singles battle, but you have less control.

Details:
Pairing pokemon happens dynamically through like a tera-like button, each pokemon can only pair with the pokemon in the teamslot next to it, pairing takes up a turn and removes that pokemon from your team, effectively playing a 5v6. You can only pair pokemon once per game.

Pairs work almost exactly like doubles, but with the following changes:
Against a pair, all moves become spread moves, meaning that they hit both pokemon but for 75% damage. This applies like for doubles, for instance using EQ against a pair including a grounded and non-grounded mon will hit the grounded mom for 100% damage. For single-target status moves, the move is used twice, once against each pokemon; yes this means strength sap becomes broken. All attacks from paired pokemon have 75% power.
A pair acts like a single pokemon for all intents and purposes: for example, using u-turn on one will switch both out, and the same for phasing moves. When swapping in from a paired to a single pokemon, it is acted as if the second pokemon has fainted; For example, if you have a pair of pokemon that both use wish, then swap to a single pokemon, the new pokemon will recieve the wish from the pokemon in the first slot (the one that clicked the pair button; jacob). The second wish will simply not land.
If one member of the pair dies, both do.


When choosing moves for a pair, you can only choose the moveslot! This means that if you have:
Great Tusk @ Rocky Helme-------------------------------------Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Jolly Nature------------------------------------------------------Timid Nature
Ability: Protosynthesis------------------------------------------Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe-------------- &&&------------ EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Headlong Rush------------------------------------------------ Encore
- Ice Spinner----------------------------------------------------- Shadow Ball
- Rapid Spin----------------------------------------------------- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock--------------------------------------------------- Calm Mind
paired together, if you wanted to use Headlong Rush with Tusk, you would be forced to use Encore with Valiant
Winners:
:choice_band: :choice_specs::ursaluna::iron_crown:
I think initially the main strategies will be very high powered offensive mons with choice items to try and overload the opponent. However, keep in mind that the 25% move power reduction stays, and that moves hit both pokemon, so if your breakers can't OHKO it's likely they will take significant damage back. In addition, the pairing itself takes a turn, which has obvious downsides for a frail choice-locked mons. I view it sort of like using belly drum: a risky sacrifice that can be very powerful if done properly
:roaring_moon: :landorus_therian:
I think flexibility will be imporatnt in this meta which means you probably won't be running dedicated support pokemon like comfey in case you don't end up pairing them, but I do think that offensive disruptors will become important; pairing roaring moon with something like status pult or landorus-t is an easy way to get free setup. The advantage this has is that it easily wins against the double-band all-out-attacker pairs that are sure to be popular, but it also struggles a lot more with the moveslot restriction.
:ribombee::ting_lu:
Due to the 25% move power reduction and the inherent frailty in having your life linked to your partner's, I predict most pairs are going to opt for boosting items rather than boots, so sticky webs and hazard stack teams will see a rise. I don't thiiiink they'll be broken, especially since Ting-Lu will be really really good otherwise as one of the only pokemon with the raw bulk to phase boosted pairs, but I could be proven wrong.
:whimsicott::zapdos::moltres::skarmory: (Encore, Status and Phasing)
Our traditional anti-cheese becomes even better because it hits both pokemon. This is a good part of the reason I think this meta will be Fine, Actually™ because you've effectively paralyzed/statused/forced hazard chip on 1/3 of your opponent's team at once. Encore especially I think will be REALLY funny because you can encore both pokemon at once no matter what via the moveslot rules
fast iron valiant paired with slow tusk, sets are the same as above
turn 1:
iron valiant uses calm mind and tusk uses rocks
your encore pokemon messes around or whatever idk
turn 2:
iron valiant moves first, uses moonblast
you use encore on the tusk
tusk uses stealth rock
next turn, though ival used moonblast last turn, tusk is trapped in the stealth rock moveslot so ival can only use calm mind
Losers:
:blissey: :dondozo:
There's really no way around it, stall just loses. With abusers able to stack powerful, mixed attacks or a powerful attack and knock off, stall at best barely benefits from pairing and at worst actively loses resources from it; remember that paired pokemon's lives are linked. Stall also gives a lot more free turns for the scary breakers to pair. Don't try.
:expert_belt: :darkrai:
For pokemon like darkrai or iron valiant who are fast but struggle with power, the spread move penalty against paired pokemon really hurts, especially since they are often so frail.
clauses:
ou power level. as for clauses, uhhh idk the standard, idc this won't become a real metagame anyway
Potential Bans:
TBH this is such a crazy idea that I can't really conclusively decide what pokemon should be banned initially. I can see a lot of them being fine or broken depending on meta trends. Pairing seems simultaneously so limiting and so boosting, which I think accomplishes the feeling I wanted to capture here. Here's everything I consider even potentially broken:
sticky web
belly drum
glimmora
dragonite
strangely iron valiant??? for the 1v1 encore disable set?
gholdengo

conclusion:
I'll be honest, much like playing jacob and esau, this OM oscillates between completely nonsensically broken and basically just normal OU in my mind. I don't expect this to really get made, due to coding limitations if nothing else, but I think it's a fun thought experiment. Honestly, I just want to know if this sounds fun to people? Again I oscillate. If you're reading this, let me know any changes, suggestions, or fun sets you think of.
 
PairMons
spoiler 1: know this is probably impossible to code and unbalanced in any case. I just thought it was a cool idea.
spoiler 2: workshopping the name, considering SiblingMons?


Have you, dear reader, ever played the hit game the Binding of Isaac? If so, have you, by some chance, encountered and beaten the hidden Mother boss? And, if such a scenario applies to you, my friend, by some wild coincidence, have you decided to actually use the character you unlocked? If you have, you know the absolute experience that is Jacob & Esau, simultaneously the most torturous and most fun runs you can have with this game. Sadly, as a mac-using troglodyte, I lost access to the game a while ago, which gave me enough trauma to successfully cause 2 braincells to rub together: What if Jacob & Esau but Pokemon?

Premise: you can have 2 Pokemon on the field at once in a singles battle, but you have less control.

Details:
Pairing pokemon happens dynamically through like a tera-like button, each pokemon can only pair with the pokemon in the teamslot next to it, pairing takes up a turn and removes that pokemon from your team, effectively playing a 5v6. You can only pair pokemon once per game.

Pairs work almost exactly like doubles, but with the following changes:
Against a pair, all moves become spread moves, meaning that they hit both pokemon but for 75% damage. This applies like for doubles, for instance using EQ against a pair including a grounded and non-grounded mon will hit the grounded mom for 100% damage. For single-target status moves, the move is used twice, once against each pokemon; yes this means strength sap becomes broken. All attacks from paired pokemon have 75% power.
A pair acts like a single pokemon for all intents and purposes: for example, using u-turn on one will switch both out, and the same for phasing moves. When swapping in from a paired to a single pokemon, it is acted as if the second pokemon has fainted; For example, if you have a pair of pokemon that both use wish, then swap to a single pokemon, the new pokemon will recieve the wish from the pokemon in the first slot (the one that clicked the pair button; jacob). The second wish will simply not land.
If one member of the pair dies, both do.


When choosing moves for a pair, you can only choose the moveslot! This means that if you have:
Great Tusk @ Rocky Helme-------------------------------------Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Jolly Nature------------------------------------------------------Timid Nature
Ability: Protosynthesis------------------------------------------Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe-------------- &&&------------ EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Headlong Rush------------------------------------------------ Encore
- Ice Spinner----------------------------------------------------- Shadow Ball
- Rapid Spin----------------------------------------------------- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock--------------------------------------------------- Calm Mind
paired together, if you wanted to use Headlong Rush with Tusk, you would be forced to use Encore with Valiant
Winners:
:choice_band: :choice_specs::ursaluna::iron_crown:
I think initially the main strategies will be very high powered offensive mons with choice items to try and overload the opponent. However, keep in mind that the 25% move power reduction stays, and that moves hit both pokemon, so if your breakers can't OHKO it's likely they will take significant damage back. In addition, the pairing itself takes a turn, which has obvious downsides for a frail choice-locked mons. I view it sort of like using belly drum: a risky sacrifice that can be very powerful if done properly
:roaring_moon: :landorus_therian:
I think flexibility will be imporatnt in this meta which means you probably won't be running dedicated support pokemon like comfey in case you don't end up pairing them, but I do think that offensive disruptors will become important; pairing roaring moon with something like status pult or landorus-t is an easy way to get free setup. The advantage this has is that it easily wins against the double-band all-out-attacker pairs that are sure to be popular, but it also struggles a lot more with the moveslot restriction.
:ribombee::ting_lu:
Due to the 25% move power reduction and the inherent frailty in having your life linked to your partner's, I predict most pairs are going to opt for boosting items rather than boots, so sticky webs and hazard stack teams will see a rise. I don't thiiiink they'll be broken, especially since Ting-Lu will be really really good otherwise as one of the only pokemon with the raw bulk to phase boosted pairs, but I could be proven wrong.
:whimsicott::zapdos::moltres::skarmory: (Encore, Status and Phasing)
Our traditional anti-cheese becomes even better because it hits both pokemon. This is a good part of the reason I think this meta will be Fine, Actually™ because you've effectively paralyzed/statused/forced hazard chip on 1/3 of your opponent's team at once. Encore especially I think will be REALLY funny because you can encore both pokemon at once no matter what via the moveslot rules
fast iron valiant paired with slow tusk, sets are the same as above
turn 1:
iron valiant uses calm mind and tusk uses rocks
your encore pokemon messes around or whatever idk
turn 2:
iron valiant moves first, uses moonblast
you use encore on the tusk
tusk uses stealth rock
next turn, though ival used moonblast last turn, tusk is trapped in the stealth rock moveslot so ival can only use calm mind
Losers:
:blissey: :dondozo:
There's really no way around it, stall just loses. With abusers able to stack powerful, mixed attacks or a powerful attack and knock off, stall at best barely benefits from pairing and at worst actively loses resources from it; remember that paired pokemon's lives are linked. Stall also gives a lot more free turns for the scary breakers to pair. Don't try.
:expert_belt: :darkrai:
For pokemon like darkrai or iron valiant who are fast but struggle with power, the spread move penalty against paired pokemon really hurts, especially since they are often so frail.
clauses:
ou power level. as for clauses, uhhh idk the standard, idc this won't become a real metagame anyway
Potential Bans:
TBH this is such a crazy idea that I can't really conclusively decide what pokemon should be banned initially. I can see a lot of them being fine or broken depending on meta trends. Pairing seems simultaneously so limiting and so boosting, which I think accomplishes the feeling I wanted to capture here. Here's everything I consider even potentially broken:
sticky web
belly drum
glimmora
dragonite
strangely iron valiant??? for the 1v1 encore disable set?
gholdengo

conclusion:
I'll be honest, much like playing jacob and esau, this OM oscillates between completely nonsensically broken and basically just normal OU in my mind. I don't expect this to really get made, due to coding limitations if nothing else, but I think it's a fun thought experiment. Honestly, I just want to know if this sounds fun to people? Again I oscillate. If you're reading this, let me know any changes, suggestions, or fun sets you think of.
How do Taunt and Assault Vest behave? Do they indeed lock the pair out of clicking buttons, even if the other's move is unaffected?

E.g. say we've got Great Tusk and Iron Valiant lined up like this:

Tusk:
Headlong Rush
Ice Spinner
Bulk Up
Rapid Spin

Valiant:
Calm Mind
Encore
Moonblast
Shadow Ball

If the pair is Taunted, are the first 3 moveslots locked out or are none of them?
If Great Tusk ends up with an Assault Vest, is only Moveslot 3 locked out?

On a related note, do Trick and Switcheroo hit both mons in sequence? If so, is that order affected by mon Speed? (For example, can Clefable Trick Sticky Barb onto Great Tusk only, Trick Sticky Barb onto Great Tusk and then Trick, say, Tusk's Boots onto Iron Valiant, or is it forced to Trick Sticky Barb onto Valiant and then Trick Valiant's, say, lack of item onto Tusk?)
 
How do Taunt and Assault Vest behave? Do they indeed lock the pair out of clicking buttons, even if the other's move is unaffected?

E.g. say we've got Great Tusk and Iron Valiant lined up like this:

Tusk:
Headlong Rush
Ice Spinner
Bulk Up
Rapid Spin

Valiant:
Calm Mind
Encore
Moonblast
Shadow Ball

If the pair is Taunted, are the first 3 moveslots locked out or are none of them?
If Great Tusk ends up with an Assault Vest, is only Moveslot 3 locked out?

On a related note, do Trick and Switcheroo hit both mons in sequence? If so, is that order affected by mon Speed? (For example, can Clefable Trick Sticky Barb onto Great Tusk only, Trick Sticky Barb onto Great Tusk and then Trick, say, Tusk's Boots onto Iron Valiant, or is it forced to Trick Sticky Barb onto Valiant and then Trick Valiant's lack of item onto Tusk?)
I had not thought about that... this is such a mickey mouse idea lmao
For the taunt scenario, I would guess that all 3 moveslots are locked out, by the idea that it works by actually physically clicking both moves?
for trick/switcheroo, I think that it would conceptually default to the slot 1 first, then the slot 2 next, so basically you shift slot 1's item to slot 2 and slot 2's item to yourself. So Clef tricks barb onto tusk gaining boots, then tricks boots onto valiant, gaining nothing and giving valiant boots. Like I said, mickey mouse idea.
The solution might just be make it just that all damaging moves are spread moves rather than all moves in general...I'm definitely realizing after posting this that this idea is much more of a petmod than an OM -_-
 
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