Unpopular opinions

Frankly my opinion of the gen 5 sprites is as simple as "never bothered me back then so they weren't atrocious on principle" and in fact they felt like a breath of fresh air. Even replaying BW1 many years later didn't make me hate them or anything, I disliked them a lot more in the sequels, which could be because what ScraftyIsTheBest is saying, you can't convince me the Emboar sprite for example looks bad.

I think their main problem, as someone who used to do a lot of Fakemon reusing gen 5 sprites, is that most parts of the body were animated separately and that ended in some Pokemon moving too much, which is specially noticeable when they picked up older sprites and tried to give them unnatural puppet-like moves. A case-by-case custom animation for every Pokemon was probably too demanding so I get while only the newer ones look better, specially considering BW1's approach to the regional Pokedex.

It isn't really that different from a lot of pre-SV models looking pretty bad except on newer mons that were literally designed with them in mind (trough even then, I would argue a lot of them looked way worse because of these incredibly awkward flying stances, I will never understand why they made Xatu fly) or not having custom animations like Blastoise used to lack. I don't understand why people see them as either aberrations or the peak of Pokemon because I can't see how they are any of the two. It's the same as when someone tries to argue 2d is what Pokemon should have stayed like but someone else points out it looks pixelated out of the console.
 
The flying ones get me cuz they DO have idle standing and stand attacking anims

It's for Amie

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Even the leaks show GF oddly prioritizing Sky Battles early in dev, despite having these. Why Sun Moon never used it baffles me, and the fact SV uses it *specifically* for Pokedex images and if a mon spawns in, only to switch to flying for the rest of the time baffles me more
 
The flying ones get me cuz they DO have idle standing and stand attacking anims

It's for Amie

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Even the leaks show GF oddly prioritizing Sky Battles early in dev, despite having these. Why Sun Moon never used it baffles me, and the fact SV uses it *specifically* for Pokedex images and if a mon spawns in, only to switch to flying for the rest of the time baffles me more
I will concede on Xatu and Skarmory but Eelektross' idle is absolutely hysterical and beautiful and people who hate on it are joyless and miserable
 
Many Pokemon fans would be much happier if they weren't so fixated on what's 'optimal' for their Pokemon. STAB on the lower offense isn't a cruel joke played on the likes of Flareon and Crawdaunt, it's an intentional way to round out a Pokemon's offensive competencies without succumbing to the 'biggest number' creep of later gens.
Until you realize a lot of these mons sucked or were working incredibly hard just to offset that blatant flaw.
Gen 5 sprites are either basic movements or janky and anybody who says that they're “timeless” are lying.
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Me getting ready to bash Gen 5's ugly ahh sprites.

Let's start with the obvious, thank you, they DO look janky af.

But let's remember why. The reason is simple, there's a technical issue with them. These sprites aren't animated in the traditional sense of having frames to convey movement, they also have a disgusting stretching filter on top of everything. So all the vibing they do is straight up stretching and moving the sprite instead of animating it.

And if we're being real, the 3D models themselves aren't unsalvageable as people say. They need idle animations (and some real color saturation).

For example, here's Hitmontop.
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Better than all the A-pose mons we got like Lucario, innit? That's really all it takes.
 
Until you realize a lot of these mons sucked or were working incredibly hard just to offset that blatant flaw.
I'm still convinced the people who decide the stats and the people who decide the learnsets and movepool are often different people. Game Freak continues to give mons interesting or diverse TM selections for a stat that is not even remotely suited for it.

I'm also so glad the series has progressively moved away from the "who cares about STAB" style learnsets

Oh boy another playthru of an early gen where a lot of mons typing is purely defensive and they just use the same strong physical moves everyone else does, I sure am so much happier.
For example, here's Hitmontop.
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shoutout to the japanese hitmontop meme that always gets stuck in my head whenever I see its animation
 
The flying ones get me cuz they DO have idle standing and stand attacking anims

It's for Amie

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View attachment 734084

View attachment 734087

Even the leaks show GF oddly prioritizing Sky Battles early in dev, despite having these. Why Sun Moon never used it baffles me, and the fact SV uses it *specifically* for Pokedex images and if a mon spawns in, only to switch to flying for the rest of the time baffles me more
EXACTLY! I have been saying it for years, trough for some reason people lately are defending both it and Sky battles. You have the models right there just please use it, I doubt there is something avoiding it except stubborness.

And if we're being real, the 3D models themselves aren't unsalvageable as people say. They need idle animations (and some real color saturation).
I was one of the people who complained a lot about the saturation a lot in XY (and people apparently argued the sprites were the opposite and too vibrant, but come on look at Mega Charizard Y's artwork then at its XY model and tell me there is no need for saturation) but I didn't really notice it nearly as much in SV or even SWSH, trough my memory on the last one is foggy. I don't think that's a problem anymore.
 
My hot take is the 3D idle animations are fine.

I don't need them to look super aggressive because I imagine the Pokemon battles to be less like the anime, and more... Turn-based. They're waiting for their command, and generally look more neutral and inquisitive, then get aggressive when attacking and hurt when hit.

That seems normal to me.

I don't need exaggeration but that's because I never envision Pokemon battles as needing to look hyper-active, or masking the turn based battles as just a way of displaying a real time scene.

What I do want is better UI and UX.

edit: SV actually tried to give more Pokemon those more aggro idles in battle and I think they look pretty bad as a full bunch, with some standing out as better.

My favorite Pokemon, Espeon, loses its catty nature and just feels too aggressive and like a generic mammal. Abomasnow they like, turned around to be like "angry" but I think it just looks awkward and displays the design less.

Not every Pokemon is designed for very aggro posing.
 
EXACTLY! I have been saying it for years, trough for some reason people lately are defending both it and Sky battles. You have the models right there just please use it, I doubt there is something avoiding it except stubborness.
Sky battles were a cool concept and we could have done with a lot more thought along those lines. The problem was just* that the player was never focused on them. You generally had exactly 1 mon that could participate and either the trainer was easy, in which case it's essentially just a trainer battle where you're forced to use a specific mon, or it was one of the endgame Sky Battle trainers, in which case your Talonflame gets it's butt kicked by a Rotom or Aerodactyl and there's no reasonable way you can win.

The concept of a battle type which restricts the eligible mons and changes mechanics is cool, and you could easily see battles which only allow mons that can learn Surf, or only mons which resist fire-type moves. And maybe that would work well for a battle frontier setting or similar. It's just that an in-game team is always going to have trouble with that sort of thing, and I wish there was a way to make it work.

*okay also there's no excuse for the idle animations
 
i think id want idle animation breaks more than id like them to change the current idle animations. you could have your standing mons, with them doing a more interesting animation a bit more often. all mons have one and sv also gave them all a look-around universal idle, but i think one more idle with a bit more frequent cycling would be perfect
 
My hot take is the 3D idle animations are fine.

I don't need them to look super aggressive because I imagine the Pokemon battles to be less like the anime, and more... Turn-based. They're waiting for their command, and generally look more neutral and inquisitive, then get aggressive when attacking and hurt when hit.

That seems normal to me.

I don't need exaggeration but that's because I never envision Pokemon battles as needing to look hyper-active, or masking the turn based battles as just a way of displaying a real time scene.

What I do want is better UI and UX.

edit: SV actually tried to give more Pokemon those more aggro idles in battle and I think they look pretty bad as a full bunch, with some standing out as better.

My favorite Pokemon, Espeon, loses its catty nature and just feels too aggressive and like a generic mammal. Abomasnow they like, turned around to be like "angry" but I think it just looks awkward and displays the design less.

Not every Pokemon is designed for very aggro posing.
They don't need to be all aggro, but especially fighting types not putting *any* guard up is bewildering.

Apparently, Espeon lost its great idle pose too, so you should understand where I'm coming from. All these mons are literally just standing there in the most neutral pose possible for the most part.

Where's the personality, the passion, the ferociousness, the calmness, anything!?
 
And if we're being real, the 3D models themselves aren't unsalvageable as people say. They need idle animations (and some real color saturation).
Tbh I thought it was understood that the fandom's main issue with the 3D transition was the animations and not the models themselves. I cannot recall a single instance of people complaining about model quality outside faded colors like you mention, but that's a texturing issue if anything.

As an aside, it's entirely possible that the reason the 3D models have very subdued idle animations in battle (outside of the obvious "they weren't given enough time to animate over 600 Pokémon for Gen 6") is due to performance issues. The Gen 6 and Gen 7 games already don't run well during battle because iirc the Pokémon models are super high poly, so minimizing animation when you have 2+ mons on screen probably helped prevent the games from tanking frames even further.
 
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I think a lot of people's concerns they expressed at Sword/Shield are valid but I feel like the big reason the reaction was more intense in general was we went from 40 dollar games to 60 dollar games, and iirc the increase from 3DS to Switch was a lot more intense in other currencies.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the concerns people had about how the pokemon and environments looked in Sword/Shield, those complaints probably would've happened anyway but the level of intensity I think is directly because of sticker shock. I imagine it's going to be like that for when Gen 10 releases and its 70 or 80.

This kind of thing isn't unique to pokemon either, a lot of games will have the same practices or issues that people generally have problems with but unless there's some sort of catalyst the reaction doesn't get intense enough to be major discourses that break thru to the mainstream gamer.
 
I still think GF are fucking stupid to not use GC/Wii Tier models that already exist (PokePark, PBR), and instead used Xbox360 poly tier models on a 240p screen handheld

Like it's just...why
Because the models used for XY weren't newly created for them (aside from the Gen 6 mons) they were made for Pokedex 3D, a standalone 3DS app where looking at the Pokémon in hi-def HD 3D was the whole point. And then when XY came they just used the models they already had and matched the style with the new ones, it's the same reason they're animated idling in a generic pose rather than a battle ready one.
 
I think a lot of people's concerns they expressed at Sword/Shield are valid but I feel like the big reason the reaction was more intense in general was we went from 40 dollar games to 60 dollar games, and iirc the increase from 3DS to Switch was a lot more intense in other currencies.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the concerns people had about how the pokemon and environments looked in Sword/Shield, those complaints probably would've happened anyway but the level of intensity I think is directly because of sticker shock. I imagine it's going to be like that for when Gen 10 releases and its 70 or 80.

This kind of thing isn't unique to pokemon either, a lot of games will have the same practices or issues that people generally have problems with but unless there's some sort of catalyst the reaction doesn't get intense enough to be major discourses that break thru to the mainstream gamer.
Possibly, but I also thing general trends in fandom towards polarization definitely didn't help. Not only do you have fan backlash that you definitely did have, but you also have the trends towards "This thing is either the best thing ever and you should be shot if you don't agree or it killed my grandma and you should be shot if you don't agree." The environments would have probably been criticized, but without Dexit, the price increase, and general negativity increasing I doubt it would have been that big a deal. I mean you do have some complaints over graphics in L:A, but because the game is better received over all, you really don't hear much about it.
 
They don't need to be all aggro, but especially fighting types not putting *any* guard up is bewildering.

Apparently, Espeon lost its great idle pose too, so you should understand where I'm coming from. All these mons are literally just standing there in the most neutral pose possible for the most part.

Where's the personality, the passion, the ferociousness, the calmness, anything!?
mainly i dont understand because they changed espeon *specifically to be more like what people say they want*, like more aggro

espeon SHOULD stand there

now it looks aggro and like it wants to battle and passionate. and that sucks because it's supposed to be a cat with psychic powers, it shouldn't GAF

if they were to change it they should've changed it to be more like its gen 2 or similar sitting sprites, lean into it being more of a psychic cat

i agree w you that it needs to be case by case but i just ultimately am fine with the status quo. i prefer the more subdued approach in the animations than like

have yall seen

i cant find it oof

there was this person on twitter a few years back who got a lot of dickriding bc they did this delphox battle idle animation where it basically constantly swings its wand from side to side and it's supposed to look more like a gen 5 aggressive animation. and i mean aggro as in like, the animation was like 0.75sec loop total of it swinging back and forth

and i saw so many people say that was better and i dont get it

like i think it looked like shit and when i look at some of the new idles im like "please tell me they didnt see this reception and go 'yeah we do this now'"

it doesnt fit the mon at all
 
sorry to double-post but i was yapping on discord about the TeraLeak stuff and how they're trying to subpoena the guy, and some thoughts on the Discourse I've been seeing, and something I don't really see people talk about

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i wanna add that even if the public reacts positively, it still isn't right. just because pokemon is huge doesn't mean the labor that went into it and the workers discussions should be public

im not saying we shouldnt discuss it, the cat's out of the bag, but that i think people just naturally go "it's awesome that this is public now" when like if we remove the brainrot lens, this must be a fucking nightmare for anyone involved
 
mainly i dont understand because they changed espeon *specifically to be more like what people say they want*, like more aggro

espeon SHOULD stand there

now it looks aggro and like it wants to battle and passionate. and that sucks because it's supposed to be a cat with psychic powers, it shouldn't GAF

if they were to change it they should've changed it to be more like its gen 2 or similar sitting sprites, lean into it being more of a psychic cat

i agree w you that it needs to be case by case but i just ultimately am fine with the status quo. i prefer the more subdued approach in the animations than like

have yall seen

i cant find it oof

there was this person on twitter a few years back who got a lot of dickriding bc they did this delphox battle idle animation where it basically constantly swings its wand from side to side and it's supposed to look more like a gen 5 aggressive animation. and i mean aggro as in like, the animation was like 0.75sec loop total of it swinging back and forth

and i saw so many people say that was better and i dont get it

like i think it looked like shit and when i look at some of the new idles im like "please tell me they didnt see this reception and go 'yeah we do this now'"

it doesnt fit the mon at all
I have to disagree pretty hard with the second example. I would definitely not characterize the Fenniken line as the stoic and reserved kind of mage. Whether the extra movement is working through somatic components or drawing shapes with a sparkler, I feel like it would fit them. At the very least, Delphox should have its weapon out during combat. Braxien at least has a design quirk related to the wand being stowed, Delphox has no such excuse.
 
I have to disagree pretty hard with the second example. I would definitely not characterize the Fenniken line as the stoic and reserved kind of mage. Whether the extra movement is working through somatic components or drawing shapes with a sparkler, I feel like it would fit them. At the very least, Delphox should have its weapon out during combat. Braxien at least has a design quirk related to the wand being stowed, Delphox has no such excuse.
i didnt say delphox's idle is good i said that fanmade examples of what people say they want are way worse
 
Because the models used for XY weren't newly created for them (aside from the Gen 6 mons) they were made for Pokedex 3D, a standalone 3DS app where looking at the Pokémon in hi-def HD 3D was the whole point. And then when XY came they just used the models they already had and matched the style with the new ones, it's the same reason they're animated idling in a generic pose rather than a battle ready one.
This is somewhat false. We have direct rips from both games to compare. They both are based on a higher poly CG model for baking normal maps, but are ultimately different for UVs and varying on mon, mesh detail. XY also applies deformation on high poly meshes for smoke/certain fire effects, while Pokedex 3D simply uses 2D particles. Note how dumb this'll be later

For the times the meshes are nearly identical (Swampert here) both have the same poly count and pose as both use the same sculpt, but the bone hierarchies are different, with XY (right) having a lot more extraneous bone end tips for IK anim assisting, while Pokedex 3D Pro focuses on extra bones being setup for the camera origin. Textures oddly have completely different UVs

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We even have some Maya sculpt files in the leak for XY meshes before they retopo'd as lower poly models

Skinning even differs for mons with the same mesh, so many anims are different. Some straight up retargeted from Stadium because 1 dev was from Stadium-Colo dev (Misaki Nakaoka, for Charmeleon and Bayleef especially)

Do note that the devs that made these models for Pokedex 3D Pro and XY are the same (Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd., contracted by Creatures Inc and GF). They had shifted workflow and experiences per game (some are from PokePark Dev, others newly for 3D Pro/XY). I noticed XY generally resizes claws/teeth to be bigger so that it's more visible for the low res screen, even for mons with identical poly count, while 3D Pro doesn't care as you can zoom in easily

3D Pro
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XY (note, paw size is the same, but claws aren't)
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Meowth's whiskers are also thicker for XY than Pokedex 3D Pro. Incidentally, he's one of the few models in 3D Pro that's lower poly ignoring fire and smoke fx than XY (5.6K vs 5.8K)

He also has multiple versions in the leaks for XY builds
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And this all ignores that GF could've simply used more optimized models for a battle sim with Triple battles, reserving the higher poly models only for Pokedex/Summary Screen. 6 Moltres' straight up crashes the system (because the fire is a high poly deformation object instead of optimized particles, ahhhh)

Side Note: the leaks showed that shifting to coloring textures to be like Sugi's desaturated art was a mid dev change. They initially had more saturated textures for Gen 1-3 mons

Cept Entei, bitch is the only HGSS mon for art that's well saturated, and the XY model retains that
 
This is somewhat false. We have direct rips from both games to compare. They both are based on a higher poly CG model for baking normal maps, but are ultimately different for UVs and varying on mon, mesh detail. XY also applies deformation on high poly meshes for smoke/certain fire effects, while Pokedex 3D simply uses 2D particles. Note how dumb this'll be later

For the times the meshes are nearly identical (Swampert here) both have the same poly count and pose as both use the same sculpt, but the bone hierarchies are different, with XY (right) having a lot more extraneous bone end tips for IK anim assisting, while Pokedex 3D Pro focuses on extra bones being setup for the camera origin. Textures oddly have completely different UVs

View attachment 734334

We even have some Maya sculpt files in the leak for XY meshes before they retopo'd as lower poly models

Skinning even differs for mons with the same mesh, so many anims are different. Some straight up retargeted from Stadium because 1 dev was from Stadium-Colo dev (Misaki Nakaoka, for Charmeleon and Bayleef especially)

Do note that the devs that made these models for Pokedex 3D Pro and XY are the same (Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd., contracted by Creatures Inc and GF). They had shifted workflow and experiences per game (some are from PokePark Dev, others newly for 3D Pro/XY). I noticed XY generally resizes claws/teeth to be bigger so that it's more visible for the low res screen, even for mons with identical poly count, while 3D Pro doesn't care as you can zoom in easily

3D Pro
View attachment 734341

XY (note, paw size is the same, but claws aren't)
View attachment 734342

Meowth's whiskers are also thicker for XY than Pokedex 3D Pro. Incidentally, he's one of the few models in 3D Pro that's lower poly ignoring fire and smoke fx than XY (5.6K vs 5.8K)

He also has multiple versions in the leaks for XY builds
View attachment 734343
View attachment 734344

And this all ignores that GF could've simply used more optimized models for a battle sim with Triple battles, reserving the higher poly models only for Pokedex/Summary Screen. 6 Moltres' straight up crashes the system (because the fire is a high poly deformation object instead of optimized particles, ahhhh)

Side Note: the leaks showed that shifting to coloring textures to be like Sugi's desaturated art was a mid dev change. They initially had more saturated textures for Gen 1-3 mons

Cept Entei, bitch is the only HGSS mon for art that's well saturated, and the XY model retains that
can we talk about the pokemon mystery dungeon 3D models and how they look really fucking weird with their shaders in rescue team dx
 
GTI/SMD and the higher poly RTDX models are likely based on the same CG sculpt used for Pokedex 3D Pro. Here is Swampert's (RTDX on Left, Pro on Right). Had to repose 3D Pro heavily, but it's eerily similar for mesh shape, outside of RTDX's better lower jaw, and bigger teeth for 3D

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UVs are again different
can we talk about the pokemon mystery dungeon 3D models and how they look really fucking weird with their shaders in rescue team dx

The texturing style for actual char models is nearly identical to PokePark-3D Pro, the shit shader RTDX uses is its own problem. Shame cuz I do like the mesh tiles dungeons use

If I had to guess, these sculpts existed around after PBR in the middle of Gen 4, properly credited to Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd. for PokePark to debut them. Then Chunsoft used these for refs to make low poly retopos for GTI then Super, and again for RTDX, while Creatures had Imagica make new revisions for XY on models. The 3D Pro models would be reused for Smash 4 Trophies, halting the use of Stadium-Colo models in Smash Bros
 
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