Unpopular opinions

[Karxrida]

And if we're being real, the 3D models themselves aren't unsalvageable as people say. They need idle animations (and some real color saturation).

Tbh I thought it was understood that the fandom's main issue with the 3D transition was the animations and not the models themselves. I cannot recall a single instance of people complaining about model quality outside faded colors like you mention, but that's a texturing issue if anything.

As an aside, it's entirely possible that the reason the 3D models have very subdued idle animations in battle (outside of the obvious "they weren't given enough time to animate over 600 Pokémon for Gen 6") is due to performance issues. The Gen 6 and Gen 7 games already don't run well during battle because iirc the Pokémon models are super high poly, so minimizing animation when you have 2+ mons on screen probably helped prevent the games from tanking frames even further.

 

[Sonikku A]

I still think GF are fucking stupid to not use GC/Wii Tier models that already exist (PokePark, PBR), and instead used Xbox360 poly tier models on a 240p screen handheld

Like it's just...why

 

[CynicalGiant]

I think a lot of people's concerns they expressed at Sword/Shield are valid but I feel like the big reason the reaction was more intense in general was we went from 40 dollar games to 60 dollar games, and iirc the increase from 3DS to Switch was a lot more intense in other currencies.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the concerns people had about how the pokemon and environments looked in Sword/Shield, those complaints probably would've happened anyway but the level of intensity I think is directly because of sticker shock. I imagine it's going to be like that for when Gen 10 releases and its 70 or 80.

This kind of thing isn't unique to pokemon either, a lot of games will have the same practices or issues that people generally have problems with but unless there's some sort of catalyst the reaction doesn't get intense enough to be major discourses that break thru to the mainstream gamer.

 

[AztecCroc]

I still think GF are fucking stupid to not use GC/Wii Tier models that already exist (PokePark, PBR), and instead used Xbox360 poly tier models on a 240p screen handheld

Like it's just...why

Because the models used for XY weren't newly created for them (aside from the Gen 6 mons) they were made for Pokedex 3D, a standalone 3DS app where looking at the Pokémon in hi-def HD 3D was the whole point. And then when XY came they just used the models they already had and matched the style with the new ones, it's the same reason they're animated idling in a generic pose rather than a battle ready one.

 

[Mad Ram]

I think a lot of people's concerns they expressed at Sword/Shield are valid but I feel like the big reason the reaction was more intense in general was we went from 40 dollar games to 60 dollar games, and iirc the increase from 3DS to Switch was a lot more intense in other currencies.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the concerns people had about how the pokemon and environments looked in Sword/Shield, those complaints probably would've happened anyway but the level of intensity I think is directly because of sticker shock. I imagine it's going to be like that for when Gen 10 releases and its 70 or 80.

This kind of thing isn't unique to pokemon either, a lot of games will have the same practices or issues that people generally have problems with but unless there's some sort of catalyst the reaction doesn't get intense enough to be major discourses that break thru to the mainstream gamer.

Possibly, but I also thing general trends in fandom towards polarization definitely didn't help. Not only do you have fan backlash that you definitely did have, but you also have the trends towards "This thing is either the best thing ever and you should be shot if you don't agree or it killed my grandma and you should be shot if you don't agree." The environments would have probably been criticized, but without Dexit, the price increase, and general negativity increasing I doubt it would have been that big a deal. I mean you do have some complaints over graphics in L:A, but because the game is better received over all, you really don't hear much about it.

 

[ant4456]

They don't need to be all aggro, but especially fighting types not putting *any* guard up is bewildering.

Apparently, Espeon lost its great idle pose too, so you should understand where I'm coming from. All these mons are literally just standing there in the most neutral pose possible for the most part.

Where's the personality, the passion, the ferociousness, the calmness, anything!?

mainly i dont understand because they changed espeon *specifically to be more like what people say they want*, like more aggro

espeon SHOULD stand there

now it looks aggro and like it wants to battle and passionate. and that sucks because it's supposed to be a cat with psychic powers, it shouldn't GAF

if they were to change it they should've changed it to be more like its gen 2 or similar sitting sprites, lean into it being more of a psychic cat

i agree w you that it needs to be case by case but i just ultimately am fine with the status quo. i prefer the more subdued approach in the animations than like

have yall seen

i cant find it oof

there was this person on twitter a few years back who got a lot of dickriding bc they did this delphox battle idle animation where it basically constantly swings its wand from side to side and it's supposed to look more like a gen 5 aggressive animation. and i mean aggro as in like, the animation was like 0.75sec loop total of it swinging back and forth

and i saw so many people say that was better and i dont get it

like i think it looked like shit and when i look at some of the new idles im like "please tell me they didnt see this reception and go 'yeah we do this now'"

it doesnt fit the mon at all

 

[ant4456]

sorry to double-post but i was yapping on discord about the TeraLeak stuff and how they're trying to subpoena the guy, and some thoughts on the Discourse I've been seeing, and something I don't really see people talk about

i wanna add that even if the public reacts positively, it still isn't right. just because pokemon is huge doesn't mean the labor that went into it and the workers discussions should be public

im not saying we shouldnt discuss it, the cat's out of the bag, but that i think people just naturally go "it's awesome that this is public now" when like if we remove the brainrot lens, this must be a fucking nightmare for anyone involved

 

[Ironmage]

mainly i dont understand because they changed espeon *specifically to be more like what people say they want*, like more aggro

espeon SHOULD stand there

now it looks aggro and like it wants to battle and passionate. and that sucks because it's supposed to be a cat with psychic powers, it shouldn't GAF

if they were to change it they should've changed it to be more like its gen 2 or similar sitting sprites, lean into it being more of a psychic cat

i agree w you that it needs to be case by case but i just ultimately am fine with the status quo. i prefer the more subdued approach in the animations than like

have yall seen

i cant find it oof

there was this person on twitter a few years back who got a lot of dickriding bc they did this delphox battle idle animation where it basically constantly swings its wand from side to side and it's supposed to look more like a gen 5 aggressive animation. and i mean aggro as in like, the animation was like 0.75sec loop total of it swinging back and forth

and i saw so many people say that was better and i dont get it

like i think it looked like shit and when i look at some of the new idles im like "please tell me they didnt see this reception and go 'yeah we do this now'"

it doesnt fit the mon at all

I have to disagree pretty hard with the second example. I would definitely not characterize the Fenniken line as the stoic and reserved kind of mage. Whether the extra movement is working through somatic components or drawing shapes with a sparkler, I feel like it would fit them. At the very least, Delphox should have its weapon out during combat. Braxien at least has a design quirk related to the wand being stowed, Delphox has no such excuse.

 

[ant4456]

I have to disagree pretty hard with the second example. I would definitely not characterize the Fenniken line as the stoic and reserved kind of mage. Whether the extra movement is working through somatic components or drawing shapes with a sparkler, I feel like it would fit them. At the very least, Delphox should have its weapon out during combat. Braxien at least has a design quirk related to the wand being stowed, Delphox has no such excuse.

i didnt say delphox's idle is good i said that fanmade examples of what people say they want are way worse

 

[Bakugames]

delphox should have gotten a broom so it flies around with it. why. because itd be cute

 

[Ironmage]

delphox should have gotten a broom so it flies around with it. why. because itd be cute

Braixen does it with their existing stick in Pokken.

 

[Sonikku A]

Because the models used for XY weren't newly created for them (aside from the Gen 6 mons) they were made for Pokedex 3D, a standalone 3DS app where looking at the Pokémon in hi-def HD 3D was the whole point. And then when XY came they just used the models they already had and matched the style with the new ones, it's the same reason they're animated idling in a generic pose rather than a battle ready one.

This is somewhat false. We have direct rips from both games to compare. They both are based on a higher poly CG model for baking normal maps, but are ultimately different for UVs and varying on mon, mesh detail. XY also applies deformation on high poly meshes for smoke/certain fire effects, while Pokedex 3D simply uses 2D particles. Note how dumb this'll be later

This is long, lemme just...

For the times the meshes are nearly identical (Swampert here) both have the same poly count and pose as both use the same sculpt, but the bone hierarchies are different, with XY (right) having a lot more extraneous bone end tips for IK anim assisting, while Pokedex 3D Pro focuses on extra bones being setup for the camera origin. Textures oddly have completely different UVs

We even have some Maya sculpt files in the leak for XY meshes before they retopo'd as lower poly models

Skinning even differs for mons with the same mesh, so many anims are different. Some straight up retargeted from Stadium because 1 dev was from Stadium-Colo dev (Misaki Nakaoka, for Charmeleon and Bayleef especially)

Do note that the devs that made these models for Pokedex 3D Pro and XY are the same (Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd., contracted by Creatures Inc and GF). They had shifted workflow and experiences per game (some are from PokePark Dev, others newly for 3D Pro/XY). I noticed XY generally resizes claws/teeth to be bigger so that it's more visible for the low res screen, even for mons with identical poly count, while 3D Pro doesn't care as you can zoom in easily

3D Pro

XY (note, paw size is the same, but claws aren't)

Meowth's whiskers are also thicker for XY than Pokedex 3D Pro. Incidentally, he's one of the few models in 3D Pro that's lower poly ignoring fire and smoke fx than XY (5.6K vs 5.8K)

He also has multiple versions in the leaks for XY builds

And this all ignores that GF could've simply used more optimized models for a battle sim with Triple battles, reserving the higher poly models only for Pokedex/Summary Screen. 6 Moltres' straight up crashes the system (because the fire is a high poly deformation object instead of optimized particles, ahhhh)

Side Note: the leaks showed that shifting to coloring textures to be like Sugi's desaturated art was a mid dev change. They initially had more saturated textures for Gen 1-3 mons

Cept Entei, bitch is the only HGSS mon for art that's well saturated, and the XY model retains that

 

[ant4456]

This is somewhat false. We have direct rips from both games to compare. They both are based on a higher poly CG model for baking normal maps, but are ultimately different for UVs and varying on mon, mesh detail. XY also applies deformation on high poly meshes for smoke/certain fire effects, while Pokedex 3D simply uses 2D particles. Note how dumb this'll be later

This is long, lemme just...

For the times the meshes are nearly identical (Swampert here) both have the same poly count and pose as both use the same sculpt, but the bone hierarchies are different, with XY (right) having a lot more extraneous bone end tips for IK anim assisting, while Pokedex 3D Pro focuses on extra bones being setup for the camera origin. Textures oddly have completely different UVs

View attachment 734334

We even have some Maya sculpt files in the leak for XY meshes before they retopo'd as lower poly models

Skinning even differs for mons with the same mesh, so many anims are different. Some straight up retargeted from Stadium because 1 dev was from Stadium-Colo dev (Misaki Nakaoka, for Charmeleon and Bayleef especially)

Do note that the devs that made these models for Pokedex 3D Pro and XY are the same (Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd., contracted by Creatures Inc and GF). They had shifted workflow and experiences per game (some are from PokePark Dev, others newly for 3D Pro/XY). I noticed XY generally resizes claws/teeth to be bigger so that it's more visible for the low res screen, even for mons with identical poly count, while 3D Pro doesn't care as you can zoom in easily

3D Pro
View attachment 734341

XY (note, paw size is the same, but claws aren't)
View attachment 734342

Meowth's whiskers are also thicker for XY than Pokedex 3D Pro. Incidentally, he's one of the few models in 3D Pro that's lower poly ignoring fire and smoke fx than XY (5.6K vs 5.8K)

He also has multiple versions in the leaks for XY builds
View attachment 734343
View attachment 734344

And this all ignores that GF could've simply used more optimized models for a battle sim with Triple battles, reserving the higher poly models only for Pokedex/Summary Screen. 6 Moltres' straight up crashes the system (because the fire is a high poly deformation object instead of optimized particles, ahhhh)

Side Note: the leaks showed that shifting to coloring textures to be like Sugi's desaturated art was a mid dev change. They initially had more saturated textures for Gen 1-3 mons

Cept Entei, bitch is the only HGSS mon for art that's well saturated, and the XY model retains that

can we talk about the pokemon mystery dungeon 3D models and how they look really fucking weird with their shaders in rescue team dx

 

[Sonikku A]

GTI/SMD and the higher poly RTDX models are likely based on the same CG sculpt used for Pokedex 3D Pro. Here is Swampert's (RTDX on Left, Pro on Right). Had to repose 3D Pro heavily, but it's eerily similar for mesh shape, outside of RTDX's better lower jaw, and bigger teeth for 3D

UVs are again different

can we talk about the pokemon mystery dungeon 3D models and how they look really fucking weird with their shaders in rescue team dx

The texturing style for actual char models is nearly identical to PokePark-3D Pro, the shit shader RTDX uses is its own problem. Shame cuz I do like the mesh tiles dungeons use

If I had to guess, these sculpts existed around after PBR in the middle of Gen 4, properly credited to Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd. for PokePark to debut them. Then Chunsoft used these for refs to make low poly retopos for GTI then Super, and again for RTDX, while Creatures had Imagica make new revisions for XY on models. The 3D Pro models would be reused for Smash 4 Trophies, halting the use of Stadium-Colo models in Smash Bros

 

[ant4456]

GTI/SMD and the higher poly RTDX models are likely based on the same CG sculpt used for Pokedex 3D Pro. Here is Swampert's (RTDX on Left, Pro on Right). Had to repose 3D Pro heavily, but it's eerily similar for mesh shape, outside of RTDX's better lower jaw, and bigger teeth for 3D

View attachment 734351

UVs are again different


The texturing style for actual char models is nearly identical to PokePark-3D Pro, the shit shader RTDX uses is its own problem. Shame cuz I do like the mesh tiles dungeons use

If I had to guess, these sculpts existed around after PBR in the middle of Gen 4, properly credited to Imagica Digitalscape Co., Ltd. for PokePark to debut them. Then Chunsoft used these for refs to make low poly retopos for GTI then Super, and again for RTDX, while Creatures had Imagica make new revisions for XY on models. The 3D Pro models would be reused for Smash 4 Trophies, halting the use of Stadium-Colo models in Smash Bros

honestly I thought the PMD models were remade (but of course largely based on the existing ones) kinda like a weird thing halfway of rumble and just the full models

but yeah this makes sense, im just dumb LOL

 

[Sonikku A]

TBF, PBR definitely established this flatter saturated texturing and modeling style for Gen 4/some 1 mons. Some devs there went to Pokepark onwards dev

Rumble models were definitely used for Mystery Dungeon Wiiware, not GTI. It seems to specifically be made for Wiiware limitations, despite reuse on Wii U Rumble

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I still think GF are fucking stupid to not use GC/Wii Tier models that already exist (PokePark, PBR), and instead used Xbox360 poly tier models on a 240p screen handheld

Like it's just...why

Ehh, I get the idea of future-proofing, but ultimately, that's why people went beyond mad about SwSh.

I think a lot of people's concerns they expressed at Sword/Shield are valid but I feel like the big reason the reaction was more intense in general was we went from 40 dollar games to 60 dollar games, and iirc the increase from 3DS to Switch was a lot more intense in other currencies.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the concerns people had about how the pokemon and environments looked in Sword/Shield, those complaints probably would've happened anyway but the level of intensity I think is directly because of sticker shock. I imagine it's going to be like that for when Gen 10 releases and its 70 or 80.

This kind of thing isn't unique to pokemon either, a lot of games will have the same practices or issues that people generally have problems with but unless there's some sort of catalyst the reaction doesn't get intense enough to be major discourses that break thru to the mainstream gamer.

Ironically, I don't think the price tag was the issue.

It was all very symptomatic. They had that disastrous showcase explaining Dexit, and then when they showed the game...

• The Tree.
• Outrageously bad animations across the board.
• The same future-proofed models that were supposed to prevent this from happening to begin with

Then everybody crashed out.

The whole point of Dexit was to divert resources into polishing the game, and SwSh was blatantly not benefiting from any of that.

 

[CynicalGiant]

Ironically, I don't think the price tag was the issue.

I wasn't saying that it was, just that it was what made the controversy louder than it would've otherwise been. Lots of games release with scummy practices or horrendously bad graphics and have discourses that do not leave their communities whatsoever.

 

[tada]

pokemon was better before they turned to the open world playstyle, legends arceus is a horrible game. Gamefreak has forgotten how to make a good pokemon game.

 

[ahro_ss]

I wasn't saying that it was, just that it was what made the controversy louder than it would've otherwise been. Lots of games release with scummy practices or horrendously bad graphics and have discourses that do not leave their communities whatsoever.

pokemon was better before they turned to the open world playstyle, legends arceus is a horrible game. Gamefreak has forgotten how to make a good pokemon game. Now everything looks more like an experiment. Sometimes I even want to go back to simple pleasures like classic slot machines. At such moments I go to spinaway-at - at least there they haven't ruined anything over the years

Totally agree with you. It had its flaws, but the fresh approach was actually pretty fun.

 

[Yung Dramps]

"Legends Arceus is actually bad and overhyped, it only looks decent in comparison to stuff like BDSP"

 

[Ironmage]

"Legends Arceus is actually bad and overhyped, it only looks decent in comparison to stuff like BDSP"
View attachment 734529

I wish I could be that generous to L:A. BDSP is real rough and I know it, but it looked good enough by comparison that I bought it within a couple weeks of L:A coming out.

 

[Mad Ram]

I know it's not exactly an unpopular opinion to say L:A was good, but yeah, it was a really good game and does show that Pokémon can work with an open world, though granted the smaller scale definitely helps there. I mean it can't be too bad a game if some guys rip it off, stick ARK style base building to it, and then get PC untermensch to say Pokémon should change to be more like it.

Really though, I think the big thing with the issues they have with open worlds have to do with the scale and dev time. I mean the Wild Area in SwSh was added mid development because people responded well to wandering Pokémon in Let's Go, so there's only so much you can do for that on such short notice. Add in the short dev cycles that Pokémon games get despite the devs' ambitions growing larger and larger, and you end up getting many of the issues of the main games such as background graphics. Can you work those out and get the game running well? Yes, but not easily when you've got maybe 2 years to do it. And it's not like we haven't known some of the games can be rushed due to poor dev times. The 3DS era itself was pretty guilty of this. Frankly, you can tell there are aspirations of making the games AAA experiences while the production environment is lagging behind leading to what you have now.

 

[CPU]

Legends Arceus is like the opposite of open world though. Extremely strict story progression beats. You're generally free to go back and explore old areas as much as you want in between said beats, and which Pokédex tasks you complete to up your rank is flexible, but I don't see how that differs from choosing what Pokémon to catch or how to battle gym leaders in the main series.

 

[www.NotAFrog.com]

At this point I see more blind hate for gen 1 than blind love. Everyone wants to avoid being a genwunner that they go too far in the other direction.

I think Hoenn is the best looking region. (in GBA graphics too)

The regions haven't been memorable since gen 3. Ask a fan to name the cities from Kanto and then ask them to name them from Sinnoh.

I love seeing Zubats in caves because Crobat is awesome.

If gen 2 didn't have Kanto people wouldn't like it nearly as much.

Wooper for cutest Pokemon.

is this you smallant?