Unpopular opinions

[Sixfortyfive]

I've mentioned this before, but my ultimate wishlist item for a future mainline game is to just merge the Pokemon League and the Battle Frontier into a singular concept.

- Gyms are based around different gameplay styles instead of different elemental types. One functions like the Pyramid, another functions like the Hall, etc. Also come up with some new styles to fill out 8 different, unique gyms.

- On the first playthrough, they all function under normal in-game rules: items allowed, levels are preset and stay intact for the player, Shift/Set options work as normal. In the post-game, they convert over to traditional Frontier rules: level 50, no items, focus on streak/rank, etc.

- The Elite Four gets replaced by the modern equivalent of the Dome, which functions more or less as VGC Tournament Simulator in post-game rematches (either bring 6 pick 3 for singles or bring 6 pick 4 for doubles), and with the first run through of it in the story being a culmination tournament that features some important NPCs you've met over the course of the game.

I remember my first playthrough of the Frontier feeling like it was kind of structurally redundant in the first place, going off to beat a new set of gym leaders frontier brains to collect a new set of badges medals. Really think that you could kill two birds with one stone here, and it'd actually come off as kind of a fresh take on the formula despite also literally being just another rehash of existing concepts lol.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I've mentioned this before, but my ultimate wishlist item for a future mainline game is to just merge the Pokemon League and the Battle Frontier into a singular concept.

- Gyms are based around different gameplay styles instead of different elemental types. One functions like the Pyramid, another functions like the Hall, etc. Also come up with some new styles to fill out 8 different, unique gyms.

- On the first playthrough, they all function under normal in-game rules: items allowed, levels are preset and stay intact for the player, Shift/Set options work as normal. In the post-game, they convert over to traditional Frontier rules: level 50, no items, focus on streak/rank, etc.

- The Elite Four gets replaced by the modern equivalent of the Dome, which functions more or less as VGC Tournament Simulator in post-game rematches (either bring 6 pick 3 for singles or bring 6 pick 4 for doubles), and with the first run through of it in the story being a culmination tournament that features some important NPCs you've met over the course of the game.

I remember my first playthrough of the Frontier feeling like it was kind of structurally redundant in the first place, going off to beat a new set of gym leaders frontier brains to collect a new set of badges medals. Really think that you could kill two birds with one stone here, and it'd actually come off as kind of a fresh take on the formula despite also literally being just another rehash of existing concepts lol.

I was actually thinking something similar to this the other day.

The Dome-style elimination tree is used in the Indigo League anime and I've always wanted to see something similar. It'd feel much more "live" to have a roster of elite trainers you face more or less at random.

That said, I think the Frontier being separate from the League works in the games it's in. It's explicitly a much harder format and is the endgame challenge - when Emerald was still in development I remember a leak calling the Frontier "a new set of gyms with two ranks of badges" and that's how I often think of it still.

What would be neat is having something like the Battle Tents again. They were a lot of fun in Emerald and felt very unlike anything that'd come before - later games have some roadside facilities like Inverse Battles but I found it really cool that they had "practice modes" for the Palace, Arena, and Factory.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

For real tho, I get that everyone hates the Palace and that's perfectly fair. Look at the broader picture tho.

Battle Tower - Absolute CLASSIC. BDSP had a great one with the Gym Leaders showing up, and SwSh's was bashed for being worse than the standard. Hasn't really been missing in most 3D games, so it hardly counts.

Battle Factory - Another classic, great gateway for the rest, and just a ton of fun with crazy variance to keep anyone on their toes.

Battle Dome - Underrated gem, I really wish it was closer to VGC/Stadium settings instead of Take 3, Pick 2 in Singles and whatever in Doubles, I'm going off memory here. Apparently, it was one of the easiest, but I'd guess it's because you had so much information. Fair enough, I guess. Still really fun and it was interesting to see the other brackets. My personal favorite tied with the Factory.

Battle Pyramid - Very unique facility, great idea, and I'd really wish to see it back in an expanded, more interesting format.

Battle Pike - Also underrated, but it was great. I'm still mad they had wild Milotic, but I couldn't catch one.

Battle Arena - An interesting facility because it requires a different team composition, but it only really shines at higher streaks. Early streaks kind of break the gimmick because you can easily 2~3HKO a Jigglypuff lmao.

Battle Palace - I think everyone agrees this place is a hellhole, designed by the same people that made DP's Great Marsh. Probably programmed by Masuda himself. Fuck this place with a rusty rake.


Gen 4's Frontier was aggressively mid, but the Castle was really fun, the Hall was boring, but not that bad, and the Arcade might as well be russian roulette, but your opponent gets the first 4 shots.


And it says a lot I remember all of these without checking Bulbapedia for how they work. (I barely remember the Hall tho, I only remember it's 1v1 and there were ranks based on types)

A lot of people like to ding the Frontier by saying "half of the facilities were gimmicky wastes of time," but even if I were to accept that as true: (1) even most of those "gimmicks" were enjoyable enough to warrant one gold medal / gold print playthrough, which is a pretty substantial amount of "content" in and of itself, and (2) that leaves the other half of the facilities being pretty well thought out activities with a lot of replay value.

Even for the parts that were rather lacking in depth, like the Battle Hall, I found it somewhat amusing just to dick around with by seeing how many wins I could rack up with a Magikarp or some crap.

I've let my NSO subscription lapse, so I'm not really playing SV at all at the moment. Would be nice to have some more substantial single-player content again.

 

[Karxrida]

Because I've been assuming the latter(people upset with Battle Tree being boring), but maybe there's a bunch of fans who really want Battle Pike specifically to come back?

The Battle Pike has a degree of similarity with Roguelikes with being a harsh challenge that involves a lot of luck but still requires player input and legit skill to beat as to not be completely unfair. I can see people liking it for that.

 

[pokemon4eva]

I literally know people irl that have never touched Emerald and only like the *concept* of the Frontier and threw a tantrum about how ORAS was the worst thing ever for not having it, arguing that even HGSS did (even trough it was a copypaste of Platinum). One of them still argues ORAS is worse than BDSP because of it.

That being said, I don't think Game Freak handled it well either. The excuse they gave was genuinely stupid and the game kind of rubs it in your face with it being "under construction" which obviously never led anywhere. Then SM keeps alluding with Anabelle that there is a world with the Frontier in Hoenn...

Personally, I had hype for it...when Emerald was my first ever third version. Playing trough it was painful as a child, and boring as an adult oncd I needed to get the Ribbon Master done. The novelty in most of them quickly wears off excluding Factory, and you always get screwed in all of them by luck anyways. I prefer BW2's postgame by a mile, trough still respect the Frontier for what they are and still think Battle Factories should always been a thing (looking at you SV, how could LA have one but not you when your second DLC is literally about battling)

Eternal Reverie the Battle Palace, pretty much. You have to manage a currency in order to keep your streak. Cool addition, although I don't like when the game launches multiple opponents at you, not with this battle system.

Battle Pike - Also underrated, but it was great. I'm still mad they had wild Milotic, but I couldn't catch one.

Yeah same, and it's possible to find them shiny too...Ironically, the hall of wild Pokemon is a good pick since you can just run away and it's a free room clear.

The Battle Pike has a degree of similarity with Roguelikes with being a harsh challenge that involves a lot of luck but still requires player input and legit skill to beat as to not be completely unfair. I can see people liking it for that.

The Pyramid has more similarities with Roguelikes imo, having to explore randomized layouts with a randomized itempool as your only resource to clear the floors. You could get lucky and get sth like a Choice Band, or sth unreliable like Brightpowder. It's surprisingly generous that it lets you keep your items in between runs, but then again, starting with an empty bag every 10 floors would make this too brutal for my tastes...

 

[DrrT]

Eternal Reverie the Battle Palace, pretty much. You have to manage a currency in order to keep your streak. Cool addition, although I don't like when the game launches multiple opponents at you, not with this battle system.

It is pretty bullshit the first time you don't know what each "title" leads to because suddenly you are can get thrown two or three cover legendaries without any kind of warning or build up. But it's just very fun and I can't srgue against that. I have literally seen people that would never touch competitive or other battle factories with a stick enjoy it. Probably because the game allows you to use dumb stuff like maxed Legend Plate Arceus and it still doesn't guarantee you victory.

LA's battle system is definetly not made for it yet they still went the extra step to add it in a free update. It just makes it more baffling to me The Indigo Disk didn't get anything, after finally getting some genuinely fun and interesting double battles in-game. It's just odd to have the setting of a literal academy focused on battling specifically and somehow try to cater for people who want more challenguing in-game trainers but then don't do the obvious thong of giving these players a battle factory. Sure, I still keep playing Scarlet because of the raids but we can have both, just look at SWSH.

I do still believe that when most people ask for the Frontier they are just asking for more actual postgame which is fair but it's also true many think the 'Frontier' label has more weight than it actually does.

Just makes that one infamous interview untold leagues more baffling. It wasn't a sloppy bit of improv because they couldn't admit they ran out of time, so what the heck...?

I'm convinced by now Masuda either used to make up shit on interviews for no real reason or in some weird logic he tried to do "damage control" but ended up making things worse. Like when talking about Dexit. Maybe on his head it sounded better, maybe he thought admitting they never planned to add the Frontier to begin with would be worse received? I have no idea. But it's impossible there was not someone reading/watching these interviews and not facepalming. Imagine working on the remake of a game you love and when asked about the lack of a fan loved feature a higher up just makes up some bullshit that gets fans mad. Seriously, what is wrong with some vague statement of "it didn't make the cut/we decided against it" and call it a day?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

There's also the issue of consumers being insufferable about reading into things that were never said.

Like, if you saw the "under construction" Battle Frontier display piece in ORAS and immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was a DLC tease and not just a little reference for in-universe lore... then that's on you. The developers didn't "trick" or "troll" you; you read into something that was never there in the first place. And if you ever hassled a developer or community manager about it, then you should be given a shock collar and administered a jolt of electricity every single time you do something like that until that unhinged behavior is trained out of you.

It's actually kind of wild how entitled some people can be. I have seen instances when, for example, during the run up to an event like E3 or a Nintendo Direct, a publisher will make an announcement ahead of time about certain franchises that will not be featured, and the reason why they do this is because there is an extremely unhinged vocal minority of "fans" who will whip themselves into a frenzy ahead of time with expectations of announcements that have no basis in reality, only for that fantasy to be exposed as ungrounded once the event comes and goes, but those fans will just stir up a social media shitstorm about it anyway because they think it's the publisher's fault that they didn't deliver on promises that were never made in the first place.

On a broader tangent, I don't know why any developer even conducts making-of interviews in this day and age tbh. You get way more people with axes to grind about what was "stolen" from the audience than those who are generally curious about the development process. If you've ever followed communities who get really into digging through development builds of old games you'll notice a subset of those fans who get feral about how things were originally "intended" to be and who set out to "restore the original vision" through romhacks or whatever, never pausing for a moment to consider that sometimes things get changed or cut for a reason.

Conversation is a two-way street. A speaker can only be held responsible for what they say. They should not also be held responsible for what you fail to understand.

 

[Yung Dramps]

On a broader tangent, I don't know why any developer even conducts making-of interviews in this day and age tbh. You get way more people with axes to grind about what was "stolen" from the audience than those who are generally curious about the development process. If you've ever followed communities who get really into digging through development builds of old games you'll notice a subset of those fans who get feral about how things were originally "intended" to be and who set out to "restore the original vision" through romhacks or whatever, never pausing for a moment to consider that sometimes things get changed or cut for a reason.

One of the things I'm most bitter about post-SWSH meltdown is how developer press tours for mainline Pokemon have absolutely ground to a screeching halt. Other than thankful remarks when the games are featured in yearly Famitsu polls you basically hear nothing from the people behind them anymore. Look at BW prerelease where you had Masuda and co. sharing concept art & funny anecdotes like how Frillish's designer was upset it was retyped to Ghost. Now we can't even get a Legends Z-A demonstration at the Switch 2 games treehouse.

It was a necessary change for all the reasons you said. Doesn't mean I can't be grumpy about it.

 

[Perriechu]

Battle Frontier topic: I'm actually happy it's never returned, I was one of those salty girls when it came to ORAS but it's subsided as we've moved forward.

The PWT, however, is absolutely the best "facility" they've done. Alongside the BDSP battle tower. This is what they need to replicate going forward IMO (but they won't lol)

The PWT gives the opportunity to showcase returning trainers and allows the actual game to focus on new content with the PWT allowing a throwback element, as well as being able to see upgraded designs / teams for older characters (and allows them to market the DLC with something like.. woah Cynthia is returning!)

But at a base level, a game should have a battle tower that encompasses the content within the game. SV having the Ace Tourney was a nice change, because rematching bosses is a selling point, but there being no way to cycle through doubles (or even practice for VGC) was a huge miss for SV.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Battle Frontier topic: I'm actually happy it's never returned

Happy? Ain't no way bruh

The PWT, however, is absolutely the best "facility" they've done.

*Checks thread title*

I'mma keep it a stack with you, the PWT was MID.

Plain 3v3 is just too short for me. I like the concept, but the execution needed some spice. As it stands, it's a telegraphed Battle Tower with actual characters. I'd like to see them interact more, maybe use an improved version of the Battle Dome tournament style so we see the leaders duking it out too.

 

[Just A Seaking]

But at a base level, a game should have a battle tower that encompasses the content within the game. SV having the Ace Tourney was a nice change, because rematching bosses is a selling point, but there being no way to cycle through doubles (or even practice for VGC) was a huge miss for SV.

I think the simplest answer is that VGC is intended to be the post-game. There's no way to cycle through doubles or practice for VGC because VGC itself is meant to be the practice. This is the real reason that the Battle Frontier has never returned, I think - with VGC, all of the competitive post-game content is maintained via online features, and doesn't require additional development time beyond basic implementation of online. By contrast, the Battle Frontier requires a lot more work - designing/implementing assets, making/balancing enemy teams, coming up with gimmick concepts - whereas VGC is largely self-sustaining other than Regulation changes. Even if you're not interested in VGC, there's also Raids for co-op play. Unlike VGC, this isn't really self-sustaining since 7* raids are custom made to keep interest around, but there's certainly a lot less work put into them than with even a Battle Tower equivalent.

Frankly, I don't expect even the Battle Tower to ever return. VGC (and I guess Battle Spot? That's still around, right?) are meant to fill that post-game battling void, with Raids either supplementing VGC with the resources they provide or substituting it as post-game content for people who aren't interested in Raids. I'm not a fan for a number of reasons - I hate Raids, and the Battle Frontier has survived past the DS's servers going online whereas VGC won't - but I can see the merit in allocating that development time and effort elsewhere.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think the simplest answer is that VGC is intended to be the post-game. There's no way to cycle through doubles or practice for VGC because VGC itself is meant to be the practice. This is the real reason that the Battle Frontier has never returned, I think - with VGC, all of the competitive post-game content is maintained via online features, and doesn't require additional development time beyond basic implementation of online. By contrast, the Battle Frontier requires a lot more work - designing/implementing assets, making/balancing enemy teams, coming up with gimmick concepts - whereas VGC is largely self-sustaining other than Regulation changes. Even if you're not interested in VGC, there's also Raids for co-op play. Unlike VGC, this isn't really self-sustaining since 7* raids are custom made to keep interest around, but there's certainly a lot less work put into them than with even a Battle Tower equivalent.

Frankly, I don't expect even the Battle Tower to ever return. VGC (and I guess Battle Spot? That's still around, right?) are meant to fill that post-game battling void, with Raids either supplementing VGC with the resources they provide or substituting it as post-game content for people who aren't interested in Raids. I'm not a fan for a number of reasons - I hate Raids, and the Battle Frontier has survived past the DS's servers going online whereas VGC won't - but I can see the merit in allocating that development time and effort elsewhere.

I could make a whole essay about how bad of an idea this is.

Tbh, it's not entirely incorrect. It's really the old dusty "Battle online, trade with your friends, get the whole dex" and Raids.

Raids are objectively a huge part of post-game content moving forward, there's a reason we're still getting 7-Star Raids in SV.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I think the simplest answer is that VGC is intended to be the post-game. There's no way to cycle through doubles or practice for VGC because VGC itself is meant to be the practice. This is the real reason that the Battle Frontier has never returned, I think - with VGC, all of the competitive post-game content is maintained via online features, and doesn't require additional development time beyond basic implementation of online. By contrast, the Battle Frontier requires a lot more work - designing/implementing assets, making/balancing enemy teams, coming up with gimmick concepts - whereas VGC is largely self-sustaining other than Regulation changes. Even if you're not interested in VGC, there's also Raids for co-op play. Unlike VGC, this isn't really self-sustaining since 7* raids are custom made to keep interest around, but there's certainly a lot less work put into them than with even a Battle Tower equivalent.

Frankly, I don't expect even the Battle Tower to ever return. VGC (and I guess Battle Spot? That's still around, right?) are meant to fill that post-game battling void, with Raids either supplementing VGC with the resources they provide or substituting it as post-game content for people who aren't interested in Raids. I'm not a fan for a number of reasons - I hate Raids, and the Battle Frontier has survived past the DS's servers going online whereas VGC won't - but I can see the merit in allocating that development time and effort elsewhere.

See, I agree with every word here.

But as somebody who doesn't feel like paying for an online subscription all of the time, I think it's lame that all of this stuff is locked behind a paywall now.

It's why I've played more 3rd/4th gen in the past year than SV.

 

[Worldie]

See, I agree with every word here.

But as somebody who doesn't feel like paying for an online subscription all of the time, I think it's lame that all of this stuff is locked behind a paywall now.

It's why I've played more 3rd/4th gen in the past year than SV.

The raids are not locked behind NSO.
You receive tera raid updates even without it as long as you have internet.

The only limitation is that you are forced to do them solo with AI or local coop

 

[WinterArcanine]

View attachment 736282
Happy? Ain't no way bruh


*Checks thread title*

I'mma keep it a stack with you, the PWT was MID.

Plain 3v3 is just too short for me. I like the concept, but the execution needed some spice. As it stands, it's a telegraphed Battle Tower with actual characters. I'd like to see them interact more, maybe use an improved version of the Battle Dome tournament style so we see the leaders duking it out too

Almost all the battle facilities limit your pokemon to 3 in singles and 4 for doubles though. At least the PWT has the triples option as well to use all six

IMO it's my favorite battle facility since fighting actual gym leaders, champions, etc is really cool, and besides that it functions very similarily to other battle facilities, minus streaks.

 

[Bakugames]

ill be honest idc that much abt post game being battle centric. why would i fight npcs when i can ladder climb with people that have brains. i much prefer theyd add more side stories, post game plots and minigames etc

 

[Worldie]

ill be honest idc that much abt post game being battle centric. why would i fight npcs when i can ladder climb with people that have brains. i much prefer theyd add more side stories, post game plots and minigames etc

I'll be a boring person and just state the obvious:
All of those require development time for "one off" content that's played then abandoned, in a series that's already struggling to deliver functional games on time. Forget it, it's a miracle we even get any kind of postgame stories via patches now.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

The raids are not locked behind NSO.
You receive tera raid updates even without it as long as you have internet.

The only limitation is that you are forced to do them solo with AI or local coop

You get the basic daily raids built into the game, but I'm actually not sure if you get the event raids (7* and such) because you can't access the online mode at all.

Either way, I do not consider raids to be very worthwhile. It's the sort of low-effort content-treadmill slop that a "live service" game fills out just to keep you on the daily grind and get those engagement metrics up. I'm kind of over that.

 

[Bakugames]

I'll be a boring person and just state the obvious:

I dont care about the obvious lol i still want it

 

[Worldie]

You get the basic daily raids built into the game, but I'm actually not sure if you get the event raids (7* and such) because you can't access the online mode at all.

You get everything as long as you unlocked them, including 7*.

I dont care about the obvious lol i still want it

Unfortunately for you, capitalism doesn't care of what you want, they care of what's worth investing in.
Sorry to burst your bubble with cold harsh reality checks

 

[Sixfortyfive]

You get everything as long as you unlocked them, including 7*.

How? I've only ever seen those spawn in the past after connecting to the news portal, which wipes the current map of its normal raids and gives you a new set, including timed events like 7*. Never seen those crop up without connecting online.

 

[AztecCroc]

How? I've only ever seen those spawn in the past after connecting to the news portal, which wipes the current map of its normal raids and gives you a new set, including timed events like 7*. Never seen those crop up without connecting online.

You can connect online to get the Poke Portal News without actually having NSO and also to get Mystery Gifts, you just can't actually use the online battle/trade features. It was the same for SWSH. You have to have actually unlocked the ability to do 6 star raids in order for the 7 stars to appear though.

 

[Bakugames]

Unfortunately for you, capitalism doesn't care of what you want, they care of what's worth investing in.
Sorry to burst your bubble with cold harsh reality checks

lol im aware. still want it though

 

[Worldie]

How? I've only ever seen those spawn in the past after connecting to the news portal, which wipes the current map of its normal raids and gives you a new set, including timed events like 7*. Never seen those crop up without connecting online.

You can connect online to get the Poke Portal News without actually having NSO and also to get Mystery Gifts, you just can't actually use the online battle/trade features. It was the same for SWSH. You have to have actually unlocked the ability to do 6 star raids in order for the 7 stars to appear though.

Correct.

Contrarly to popular belief, NSO isn't required to access internet on the Switch.
Only to access certain internet services, aka mostly, multiplayer features for paid games.
Es, you don't actually need NSO to use Pokemon Home, nor to play Pokemon Unite (and other F2P games like Fortnite or Master Duel), but you do need it to play Splatoon online.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

You can connect online to get the Poke Portal News without actually having NSO and also to get Mystery Gifts, you just can't actually use the online battle/trade features. It was the same for SWSH. You have to have actually unlocked the ability to do 6 star raids in order for the 7 stars to appear though.

You know, I was going go be a real smartass in response to this. Pulled out the Switch with every intention to clip and share how this actually works in practice. If you try to "Connect to Internet" via either the main menu or the Mystery Gift menu, you just get stopped cold with an NSO purchase screen and it kicks you back to the menu if you decline. Doesn't pull up the news. Doesn't download raid/outbreak updates.

BUT. Just to be thorough, I went into the Mystery Gift submenu and clicked "Check Poke Portal News" specifically. That downloads the most recent raid/outbreak updates. It still doesn't actually let me read any details on exactly what got downloaded--the news updates themselves are nowhere to be seen--but the content itself does still get distributed this way; the map got updated with the usual glowy raid icons.

Still seems suboptimal that I'd have to actually pull up an external website or the Pokemon Home mobile app just to read the actual news updates on what's being distributed in SV, but I suppose it's better than nothing, and I wouldn't have checked this thoroughly without being prompted to, so thanks.