Resource ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

[Johnald]

Made a usage/wr-based VR post a bit ago; this one is going to be the opinion piece.
Usage doesn’t always hold water; you have to vary your brings for tours or you will get punished.


has the perfect traits to be hyper-consistent. Pokémon is a game of variance due to secondary effects and critical hits. Blissey can shrug off both. Wish/roma allows you to do the same for your team. TWave prints you tempo.


1 spike is all you need. Sand immune, Spike immune. Skarm is good at maintaining that 1 layer throughout the game.


Initially I had this at #4 below Metagross. But Crunch Tar (either slow with Pursuit or fast with Grass/Fire coverage) has impressed me. DD is hot garbage as a breaker/sweeper; too many things can go wrong. Max HP Tars have a lot of defensive utility. Sand is good for pushing progress. Tar’s biggest issue is that it restricts your own team as well.


King of offense. The value floor is essentially 1 for 1. Boom is a great way to trade down when ahead. Agility is a good wincon. Meteor Mash is a blessing and a curse. Raises can win you the game instantly, while misses can do the opposite.


Best on spikes or Dug teams. Wisp Taunt is one of the best fat breakers (when you hit Wisp). Boom + spikes is great Blissey pressure. The mon is good if Wisp isn’t your only way of pressuring fat.


Probably should put this guy lower. OffPert needs Pump for damage rolls, which is a big downside. MonoPert wants sand for its damage to stick. Surf/Tect/Roar/Toxic is amazing role compression and stops people from cheesing it with Sub/Refresh. Curse 3A/2A is good.


The Swiss army knife of ADV. Consistency often means using spikes. Prediction/reads can only get you so far. Claydol is the one spinner you can rely on to get rid of multiple layers in a reasonable timeframe. Sand immunity + Spike immunity + Boom means the value floor is high. Needs help pressuring Skarmory.


The other good spinner. Matches up better into Skarmory but worse into Gengar. Offensive Starmie demands Blissey or you will be trading down into it. DefMie prints you tempo and cripples switch-ins via TWave. Modest with Recover is good.


Pairs nicely with spikes. Most Dug-weak mons EV to live from full or very close to full. Bulky Dug is meh. Huge amount of skill expression when optimizing this guy.


Suicune is best when it can play the pressure game. Needs a lot of support, but it is one of the best mons to support. A lot of teams rely on spikes + sand to deal with it. If Cune fat stabilizes, get out your tackle box and start fishing.


Not a fan of DD, mainly because MixOff isn’t a good archetype. Mence is the mon you bring to be safe against fighters. Mixed Mence can fall short if it’s your Celebi check, while CB can be awkward to use under sand.


On paper, FearRachi solos physical offense. Your opponent will have to fish for status/crits if you get a good MU. SpDef Jira can thud if it doesn’t get the Body Slam paras. CM variants also need some luck for you to get value.


Leech Recover is amazing at beating bulky setup mons. Not big on the HP Fire sets; I would rather lean into Bi’s strengths and use a different method of dealing with Skarm. Incentivizing Ice Beam when switching into waters is painful.


imo Zap is best with some defensive investment. Being a fast bulky pivot with strong damage output is a powerful combination. Modest w/ HP investment >> SpDef Rest >> Timid.


Good as an offensive spiker or with double spin. Skarm balance teams have adapted ways of pressuring mono-spin Forre.


I used to be a Lax hater. Think I was influenced too much by all of the ladders using Blue offenses. Those teams are not good. Lax is better when supported by a slower gameplan.


Pretty low on my VR. Its win rate in tours is always low. You often need to get a correct prediction/flinch to secure the game; this doesn’t always happen. Aero spikes can thud more often than you would think: getting statused on the switch, not being able to establish spikes, Rock Slide missing, etc.


If people are interested I can keep going, but going to stop there for now.

 

[Mintyfresh756]

View attachment 769072

Made a usage/wr-based VR post a bit ago; this one is going to be the opinion piece.
Usage doesn’t always hold water; you have to vary your brings for tours or you will get punished.


has the perfect traits to be hyper-consistent. Pokémon is a game of variance due to secondary effects and critical hits. Blissey can shrug off both. Wish/roma allows you to do the same for your team. TWave prints you tempo.


1 spike is all you need. Sand immune, Spike immune. Skarm is good at maintaining that 1 layer throughout the game.


Initially I had this at #4 below Metagross. But Crunch Tar (either slow with Pursuit or fast with Grass/Fire coverage) has impressed me. DD is hot garbage as a breaker/sweeper; too many things can go wrong. Max HP Tars have a lot of defensive utility. Sand is good for pushing progress. Tar’s biggest issue is that it restricts your own team as well.


King of offense. The value floor is essentially 1 for 1. Boom is a great way to trade down when ahead. Agility is a good wincon. Meteor Mash is a blessing and a curse. Raises can win you the game instantly, while misses can do the opposite.


Best on spikes or Dug teams. Wisp Taunt is one of the best fat breakers (when you hit Wisp). Boom + spikes is great Blissey pressure. The mon is good if Wisp isn’t your only way of pressuring fat.


Probably should put this guy lower. OffPert needs Pump for damage rolls, which is a big downside. MonoPert wants sand for its damage to stick. Surf/Tect/Roar/Toxic is amazing role compression and stops people from cheesing it with Sub/Refresh. Curse 3A/2A is good.


The Swiss army knife of ADV. Consistency often means using spikes. Prediction/reads can only get you so far. Claydol is the one spinner you can rely on to get rid of multiple layers in a reasonable timeframe. Sand immunity + Spike immunity + Boom means the value floor is high. Needs help pressuring Skarmory.


The other good spinner. Matches up better into Skarmory but worse into Gengar. Offensive Starmie demands Blissey or you will be trading down into it. DefMie prints you tempo and cripples switch-ins via TWave. Modest with Recover is good.


Pairs nicely with spikes. Most Dug-weak mons EV to live from full or very close to full. Bulky Dug is meh. Huge amount of skill expression when optimizing this guy.


Suicune is best when it can play the pressure game. Needs a lot of support, but it is one of the best mons to support. A lot of teams rely on spikes + sand to deal with it. If Cune fat stabilizes, get out your tackle box and start fishing.


Not a fan of DD, mainly because MixOff isn’t a good archetype. Mence is the mon you bring to be safe against fighters. Mixed Mence can fall short if it’s your Celebi check, while CB can be awkward to use under sand.


On paper, FearRachi solos physical offense. Your opponent will have to fish for status/crits if you get a good MU. SpDef Jira can thud if it doesn’t get the Body Slam paras. CM variants also need some luck for you to get value.


Leech Recover is amazing at beating bulky setup mons. Not big on the HP Fire sets; I would rather lean into Bi’s strengths and use a different method of dealing with Skarm. Incentivizing Ice Beam when switching into waters is painful.


imo Zap is best with some defensive investment. Being a fast bulky pivot with strong damage output is a powerful combination. Modest w/ HP investment >> SpDef Rest >> Timid.


Good as an offensive spiker or with double spin. Skarm balance teams have adapted ways of pressuring mono-spin Forre.


I used to be a Lax hater. Think I was influenced too much by all of the ladders using Blue offenses. Those teams are not good. Lax is better when supported by a slower gameplan.


Pretty low on my VR. Its win rate in tours is always low. You often need to get a correct prediction/flinch to secure the game; this doesn’t always happen. Aero spikes can thud more often than you would think: getting statused on the switch, not being able to establish spikes, Rock Slide missing, etc.


If people are interested I can keep going, but going to stop there for now.

Specifically curious about the kingler guest appearance lol

 

[Johnald]

Specifically curious about the kingler guest appearance lol

It's an honorable mention. I hit rank 1 with kingler a few months back

 

[M Dragon]

Some comments on the ranked S, A+ and A mons:

Tyranitar is the king of ADV and will probably always be just because of how good sand is, to the point where some teams main goal is removing sand to work. And not only that, Tyranitar can do a lot of things: pressure Bliss while hitting hard, being one of the best late game set up sweepers, trapping, etc.

Skarmory is the best spiker by far, and spikes are very good. Incredible bulk and utility, even the existance of Magneton doesn't stop it from being one of the best mons in the tier.

Zapdos is an incredible mon, both defensively and offensively, especially when paired with things to remove or pressure special walls like Blissey. It can hit very hard with Thunderbolt, it can status with TWave or Toxic, it can BP to easily keep the offensive tempo of the game. Defensive Rest Zapdos can wall a big number of mixed and special threats in the game, especially if there is no sand. Speedpass ban hasn't really affected it imo, because it had much better sets already.

Metagross used Meteor Mash! Metagross attack raised! and Metagross user auto won the game. That has happened to everybody. Metagross is an offensive rock resist that can easily pressure other teams, but the threat of Explosion is what makes this mon very dangerous: it can remove a key mon of the other team, even standard Skarmory is OHKOd by Explosion if Metagross has CB.

Suicune is one of my "signature" ADV mons. Pressure, CM, huge bulk, Roar... it can be defensive, offensive, and all those sets can work. In fact, a big number of common teams are weak to a well used Suicune. Substitute, Roar, Sleep Talk and Ice Beam (especially modest) are 4 moves that can change what Pokemon can counter Suicune. Counters to defensive Suicune (like Zapdos or Celebi) can lose to more offensive sets, and the opposite is also true. I have used Suicune a lot in my SPL + classic runs last year and I won most of the games where I used it.

Blissey can stop complete playstyles with its incredible special bulk, with a lot of support options for the team, like Wish or Aromatherapy, as well as being able to spread status so it is not a set up fodder. It can even beat physical attackers with Counter, or making them much less dangerous with Thunder Wave.

Swampert the bulky water and bulky ground at the same time, the best counter to the 3 "titans" of ADV: Tyranitar, Metagross and Salamence (unless they run HP Grass). Recently I have been using Refresh Pert in some balanced teams, or even in more offensive teams like my 4x CB team, sometimes paired with Dug to remove Celebi or Starmie, and it has been working very well. Offensive variations of Swampert can also be very effective, with HP + IB + EQ + FPunch.

Gengar is a very versatile Pokemon with very unique roles, and a big number of resistances and immunities, including Rapid Spin. Its speed, power, coverage and support options make it a very dangerous mon. WoW is a very annoying move for physical mons that could try to pressure it, Taunt allows it to block defensive mon attempts to recover or to status it, Dbond allows it to remove a dangerous threat or a spinner, Hypnosis can temporaly disable a threat, and Explosion can remove special walls from the game to support other special threats.

Salamence is the third ADV titan, amazing mon both offensively and defensively, with a big movepool and a lot of options in both sides of the spectrum, it could use a mixed set with Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, HP Grass with physical options like Brick Break or even Rock Slide to hit special walls. Or it could be a physical threat with its huge attack stat and the option of DD. Intimidate is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

Aerodactyl, one of the faces of offensive TSS teams, and especially Superman teams, the fastest viable mon in OU (tied with Jolteon), with the power of Rock Slide on its side. Every ADV player has lost many games to a well timed Rock Slide flinch from Aerodactyl. And thanks to its ability, it takes no recoil from D-E to hit bulky grounds very hard. With spikes and sand immunity, even a 1% Aerodactyl is always a threat and can easily win games.

Dugtrio the hunter, being able to remove some key mons from the game at the cost of giving a free turn to the opponent. Dug is very frail and only has 1 role, but its an unique role and it does it very well. Like 10 years ago I created a bulkier set of Dugtrio that always survived Blissey Ice Beam, which allowed special oriented teams to be more effective. Adamant Dugtrio doesnt outspeed some mons like Starmie, but the extra damage is huge against some mons. Jolly Dugtrio is probably still the most consistent version overall.

Jirachi is another one of those mons that are really good offensive and defensively. Defensive variations can wall a big number of threats, while spreading status (Body Slam 60% para or Toxic) and healing the team with Wish. Offensive variations with Calm Mind can sweep teams and have a lot of options: 101 HP Substitutes to block status and give it free turns, or coverage with Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder(bolt), Psychic or Hp Grass. Serene Grace makes it extra dangerous with the 20% freeze chance and the more likely paras or sp def drops.

And finally, honorable mention to Flygon, another of my "signature" ADV mons. It is one of the 2 mons that can resist eq + rs, it is immune to both sand and spikes, it is a bulky ground not weak to grass (the most common coverage option for electrics and some mixed threats because of how good Swampert it), and it has as a very good speed tier. A lot of teams are unprepared for Flygon and have a lot of problems dealing with it. It is a Pokemon that works better when its usage is lower. I have always liked CB Flygon archetypes, especially when paired with Magneton, it is very good against CMers and balanced teams.




On another note, one of the most influential teams in pokemon history: Superman, is already 20 years old.

In a game dominated by defensive teams (nearly always with skarmbliss), this new kind of TSS took the meta by storm, with a more agressive variation of TSS (Toxic + Spikes + Sandstorm) that instead of trying to win slowly like the TSS teams at the time, could beat both defensive and offensive teams with solid defensive cores, a big number of spikes immunes (the biggest source of damage of classic defensive TSS) and constant pressure with Spikes + Sand + heavy hitters like modest restalk Zapdos or CB Aerodactyl, taking advantage as well of a Netbattle bug at that time, where Substitute blocked Rapid Spin from removing Spikes.

20 years after the creation of this team, variations of Superman are still very popular and is still one of the best and most consistent playstyles in ADV OU. A lot of modern variations have pokemons such as Gengar to block Spin, but the idea is still the same: sand, spikes, spikes immunity and constant pressure.

 

[YubelVT]

View attachment 769085

Some comments on the ranked S, A+ and A mons:

Tyranitar is the king of ADV and will probably always be just because of how good sand is, to the point where some teams main goal is removing sand to work. And not only that, Tyranitar can do a lot of things: pressure Bliss while hitting hard, being one of the best late game set up sweepers, trapping, etc.

Skarmory is the best spiker by far, and spikes are very good. Incredible bulk and utility, even the existance of Magneton doesn't stop it from being one of the best mons in the tier.

Zapdos is an incredible mon, both defensively and offensively, especially when paired with things to remove or pressure special walls like Blissey. It can hit very hard with Thunderbolt, it can status with TWave or Toxic, it can BP to easily keep the offensive tempo of the game. Defensive Rest Zapdos can wall a big number of mixed and special threats in the game, especially if there is no sand. Speedpass ban hasn't really affected it imo, because it had much better sets already.

Metagross used Meteor Mash! Metagross attack raised! and Metagross user auto won the game. That has happened to everybody. Metagross is an offensive rock resist that can easily pressure other teams, but the threat of Explosion is what makes this mon very dangerous: it can remove a key mon of the other team, even standard Skarmory is OHKOd by Explosion if Metagross has CB.

Suicune is one of my "signature" ADV mons. Pressure, CM, huge bulk, Roar... it can be defensive, offensive, and all those sets can work. In fact, a big number of common teams are weak to a well used Suicune. Substitute, Roar, Sleep Talk and Ice Beam (especially modest) are 4 moves that can change what Pokemon can counter Suicune. Counters to defensive Suicune (like Zapdos or Celebi) can lose to more offensive sets, and the opposite is also true. I have used Suicune a lot in my SPL + classic runs last year and I won most of the games where I used it.

Blissey can stop complete playstyles with its incredible special bulk, with a lot of support options for the team, like Wish or Aromatherapy, as well as being able to spread status so it is not a set up fodder. It can even beat physical attackers with Counter, or making them much less dangerous with Thunder Wave.

Swampert the bulky water and bulky ground at the same time, the best counter to the 3 "titans" of ADV: Tyranitar, Metagross and Salamence (unless they run HP Grass). Recently I have been using Refresh Pert in some balanced teams, or even in more offensive teams like my 4x CB team, sometimes paired with Dug to remove Celebi or Starmie, and it has been working very well. Offensive variations of Swampert can also be very effective, with HP + IB + EQ + FPunch.

Gengar is a very versatile Pokemon with very unique roles, and a big number of resistances and immunities, including Rapid Spin. Its speed, power, coverage and support options make it a very dangerous mon. WoW is a very annoying move for physical mons that could try to pressure it, Taunt allows it to block defensive mon attempts to recover or to status it, Dbond allows it to remove a dangerous threat or a spinner, Hypnosis can temporaly disable a threat, and Explosion can remove special walls from the game to support other special threats.

Salamence is the third ADV titan, amazing mon both offensively and defensively, with a big movepool and a lot of options in both sides of the spectrum, it could use a mixed set with Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, HP Grass with physical options like Brick Break or even Rock Slide to hit special walls. Or it could be a physical threat with its huge attack stat and the option of DD. Intimidate is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

Aerodactyl, one of the faces of offensive TSS teams, and especially Superman teams, the fastest viable mon in OU (tied with Jolteon), with the power of Rock Slide on its side. Every ADV player has lost many games to a well timed Rock Slide flinch from Aerodactyl. And thanks to its ability, it takes no recoil from D-E to hit bulky grounds very hard. With spikes and sand immunity, even a 1% Aerodactyl is always a threat and can easily win games.

Dugtrio the hunter, being able to remove some key mons from the game at the cost of giving a free turn to the opponent. Dug is very frail and only has 1 role, but its an unique role and it does it very well. Like 10 years ago I created a bulkier set of Dugtrio that always survived Blissey Ice Beam, which allowed special oriented teams to be more effective. Adamant Dugtrio doesnt outspeed some mons like Starmie, but the extra damage is huge against some mons. Jolly Dugtrio is probably still the most consistent version overall.

Jirachi is another one of those mons that are really good offensive and defensively. Defensive variations can wall a big number of threats, while spreading status (Body Slam 60% para or Toxic) and healing the team with Wish. Offensive variations with Calm Mind can sweep teams and have a lot of options: 101 HP Substitutes to block status and give it free turns, or coverage with Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder(bolt), Psychic or Hp Grass. Serene Grace makes it extra dangerous with the 20% freeze chance and the more likely paras or sp def drops.

And finally, honorable mention to Flygon, another of my "signature" ADV mons. It is one of the 2 mons that can resist eq + rs, it is immune to both sand and spikes, it is a bulky ground not weak to grass (the most common coverage option for electrics and some mixed threats because of how good Swampert it), and it has as a very good speed tier. A lot of teams are unprepared for Flygon and have a lot of problems dealing with it. It is a Pokemon that works better when its usage is lower. I have always liked CB Flygon archetypes, especially when paired with Magneton, it is very good against CMers and balanced teams.




On another note, one of the most influential teams in pokemon history: Superman, is already 20 years old.

In a game dominated by defensive teams (nearly always with skarmbliss), this new kind of TSS took the meta by storm, with a more agressive variation of TSS (Toxic + Spikes + Sandstorm) that instead of trying to win slowly like the TSS teams at the time, could beat both defensive and offensive teams with solid defensive cores, a big number of spikes immunes (the biggest source of damage of classic defensive TSS) and constant pressure with Spikes + Sand + heavy hitters like modest restalk Zapdos or CB Aerodactyl, taking advantage as well of a Netbattle bug at that time, where Substitute blocked Rapid Spin from removing Spikes.

20 years after the creation of this team, variations of Superman are still very popular and is still one of the best and most consistent playstyles in ADV OU. A lot of modern variations have pokemons such as Gengar to block Spin, but the idea is still the same: sand, spikes, spikes immunity and constant pressure.

The cool part of using lead zapdos on every team is that you don’t telegraph jack shit about your team. Also finally, a good player puts zapdos in top 5. He’s the GOAT for a reason

 

[Alextarchoun]

I’ve been playing on Smogon since 2015.
My highest ranking was 8th on Gen 3 OU, like a week ago.

I just found out Smeargle dragon dance baton pass is banned.

I didn’t say anything when sand attack was banned, or when past gen ubers and anything goes were removed from competitive play.

But banning Ninjask baton pass, just destroys the entire concept of the pokemon.

And never do the changes come to ban Tyranitar or Skarmory, not a single thing to limit the most propped up pokemon. Tyranitar and Skarmory are garbage in Ubers. And OU has done every thing possible to keep them active. And its not that they aren’t beatable, they not beatable quickly. And everything that speeds up the game has been removed.

Respectfully, its beyond the pale. I’ve proven to myself that I can be in the top 10 in this broken Gen 3 OU, and with some luck, I can be #1.

But for me, the extreme limitations on the Gen are ruining the fun. Lots of 100+ turn battles, just chipping away at a Skarmory in a sandstorm, always.

I can keep using the exact same team, and depending on 10% outcomes like CRIT, FRZ, Thunderbolt PAR, I’ll either be in the top 100 or the top 10. And to that effect, the game has become a slot machine. There’s no more designing teams. The gen has becoming limited to a point that its not even a meta game. Its a Mega Meta Pokemon game called beat the Tyranitar & Skarmory while not using 95% of the possible strategies.

I don’t understand why you people are so fixated on ruining online competitive Pokemon.

Alright, no minimize, or double team,
But sand attack is one of the first moves to use in Pokémon history.

Alright, only one Pokemon can be put to sleep at a time,
But that Breloom that just put me to sleep is weak to Ninjask, which means at minimum I’ll get to baton pass a speed boost to a pokemon that matches up with whomever was switched in for the breloom,

Including a Pokémon with suction cups.

But now I can’t, which also eliminates Cradlily and Octilerally from competitive play.

WHY. Why keep propping up Skarmory and Tyranitar.
Why allow Celebi and Jirachi but not Mew.
They’re all 600.

Why am I completely un represented. How is it that this entire community disagrees with me. I’m in the minority because I want to use sand attack? No. I’m the silent majority, that just keeps playing, and in the in game chat will agree with the others that Smogon sucks now.

 

[Siglut]

Sand attack isn't banned. And if you're capable of laddering to the top 10 you could've participated in the suspect test and voted against a speedpass ban, like I did. If you aren't good enough to do that, which I suspect is the case, at least recognize that the players making the decision are better than you.

Also, you can still play ubers or anything goes. Nobody is stopping you. There's just no ladder because nobody else wants to play it.

 

[Stox]

crying in the club, welcome back ggfan

 

[Just_Leonardo]

Bait used to be believable bro. They don't make ragebaiters like they used to

 

[ohko by scald]

Sand attack isn't banned. And if you're capable of laddering to the top 10 you could've participated in the suspect test and voted against a speedpass ban, like I did. If you aren't good enough to do that, which I suspect is the case, at least recognize that the players making the decision are better than you.

Also, you can still play ubers or anything goes. Nobody is stopping you. There's just no ladder because nobody else wants to play it.

99% sure it's just a joke

 

[Siglut]

99% sure it's just a joke

He's right about everything though

 

[Just_Leonardo]

Also, you can still play ubers or anything goes. Nobody is stopping you. There's just no ladder because nobody else wants to play it.

Nah let bro cook, we need the Ubers ladder so I can click self destruct with Mewtwo without joining a tour

 

[YubelVT]

I’ve been playing on Smogon since 2015.
My highest ranking was 8th on Gen 3 OU, like a week ago.

I just found out Smeargle dragon dance baton pass is banned.

I didn’t say anything when sand attack was banned, or when past gen ubers and anything goes were removed from competitive play.

But banning Ninjask baton pass, just destroys the entire concept of the pokemon.

And never do the changes come to ban Tyranitar or Skarmory, not a single thing to limit the most propped up pokemon. Tyranitar and Skarmory are garbage in Ubers. And OU has done every thing possible to keep them active. And its not that they aren’t beatable, they not beatable quickly. And everything that speeds up the game has been removed.

Respectfully, its beyond the pale. I’ve proven to myself that I can be in the top 10 in this broken Gen 3 OU, and with some luck, I can be #1.

But for me, the extreme limitations on the Gen are ruining the fun. Lots of 100+ turn battles, just chipping away at a Skarmory in a sandstorm, always.

I can keep using the exact same team, and depending on 10% outcomes like CRIT, FRZ, Thunderbolt PAR, I’ll either be in the top 100 or the top 10. And to that effect, the game has become a slot machine. There’s no more designing teams. The gen has becoming limited to a point that its not even a meta game. Its a Mega Meta Pokemon game called beat the Tyranitar & Skarmory while not using 95% of the possible strategies.

I don’t understand why you people are so fixated on ruining online competitive Pokemon.

Alright, no minimize, or double team,
But sand attack is one of the first moves to use in Pokémon history.

Alright, only one Pokemon can be put to sleep at a time,
But that Breloom that just put me to sleep is weak to Ninjask, which means at minimum I’ll get to baton pass a speed boost to a pokemon that matches up with whomever was switched in for the breloom,

Including a Pokémon with suction cups.

But now I can’t, which also eliminates Cradlily and Octilerally from competitive play.

WHY. Why keep propping up Skarmory and Tyranitar.
Why allow Celebi and Jirachi but not Mew.
They’re all 600.

Why am I completely un represented. How is it that this entire community disagrees with me. I’m in the minority because I want to use sand attack? No. I’m the silent majority, that just keeps playing, and in the in game chat will agree with the others that Smogon sucks now.

>been playing since 2015
>joined today at 1:38 AM

rest in piss ninjask if this happened a year ago I would have unironically launched fireworks

 

[goldmason]

Approved by me

Hello folks! ADV Cup is nearly over, so we're going to open submissions for the ADV OU VR for 2025!

Here is a clear list of criteria for the VR submission, you must meet at least one of them to be part of the VR update:

• Made Top 8 of ADV Cup.
• Played in the most recent Jimvitational (play-ins not included).
• Made Top 4 in the last Seasonal or Championship.
• Reached 1800 on the ladder in the last 6 months (February 28th).

Of course, feel free to post your VR on the forums in this thread, regardless of if you appear in the list or not.

If you wish to submit a VR, follow the instructions below to create a sheet. Afterwards, you must send me a PM (Smogon or Discord (goldmason)) with your qualification from the list above, as well as your completed sheet. Any ladder screenshot must in some way include the date or be dated for the last six months. If you wish to verify your reqs with me first, you may.

If you qualify, we are using a different method to submit VRs this year! And anyone not qualified can use this sheet as well, if you'd like.

Princess Autumn's fantastic VR Sheet

Instructions

• Click on the link above. Click yes to make a copy of the sheet.
• You can either submit your list as text or as a tier maker-esque format:
  • List: Input a Pokémon's name in column E and their rank (S-E) in column B. The list will be assumed to be sorted by ranking order so order them accordingly,
  • Tier Maker: Select the Pokémon's name from the dropdowns in column H-U, the sprite will populate above the name. You are limited to 15 Pokémon in tiers S-D and 45 in E, if you need more, use the text format.
• To be very clear, as vapi also reiterated below, only your rankings matter for the VR. Tiers are purely for aesthetic/to match the tiermaker image generator.

The deadline for submitting your VR is <t:1759118340:F>. You may ladder until then to try and get reqs for the VR.

Old Tiermaker image generator

PS: There is a speedpass suspect going on. If you think your rankings will change depending on the outcome of the suspect, make sure to update your sheet.

Just an update to this: I have been busy as fuck the last 2 weeks; my discord archived my DMs from before the 8th and I want to make sure I didn't miss any submissions. I have:

VR Submissions

OOF_MAXIMA
Zpanther
Spreek
Johnald
Rambode
Endill
McMeghan
Kollin7
Mintyfresh756
HeyYa!_Forte
softshellcrabcakes
SpamOn

If you're not on this list I didn't receive your VR, please poke me again. Thanks!

 

[greenapricotttss]

So I incorporated a simple rule while constructing this VR:
I decided to place no more than 8 Mons per tier, without + or -
D-class however, has 14 for the inclusion of some noteworthy Mons.
Yeah not too important although it clearly nominates Mons for a tier but the cut-offs aren't strict.
Despite any +/- indications anyone at the front of B-class may still be considered B+ (or even A-) and vice versa

a few notes
[S to A is positioned with intent so thats Top10, B-tier has rough placement esp btwn Mie, Aero, Dol
[I chose 8 Mons per tier (A-C) I guess to accentuate how they compare against each other, even Yama in D would be the cut-off for Shitmonsville
[I could have included Machamp, Colo, Maldo, P2, Sableye
[Cloyster should go to the end because it sucks

---

(D/C-)
I have to put Jynx at the top of D because she just might be the premier, #1 shitmon of all time. She lies on the cusp abnormality & viability (definitely leaning towards "wtf are they cooking") with very distinguished traits:
-Lovely Kiss
-95 base Spe, which isn't phenomenal but will certainly punish any 100 Speeder who lacks the faster Nature
-A toolbox of criminal tactics:
Thief on her is soooo good, do you know how many Blissey's lefties I've stolen?! Add Milotic and Metagross to the list, 9/10 this will neuter your oppo's Special tank, just try not to steal a choice band.
Taunt is good against slower CMers, Perish Song can force out the switch-in, Hp Fire can work, lmao why does she get Screens, I feel like you can pull off the most despicable shit if your mind is open. Her appeal comes in the form of opening up opportunities for physical attackers after Kiss. She often lures Milo, Ttar, Gross, Bliss and Forre.

(B-)
Yes that is Raikou in B; if Medi deserves to dragged into OU then this guy may as well too.
I know VRs do not imply definitive OU status but, if you look at most the Mons in B and up are OU
But yeah this guy really gets to work man, operating as a special offensive threat and defensive pivot. Get a nice boost and let those +1 Tbolts drizzle! Coverage is straightforward, often the prominent choice is Sub vs Roar. The latter is supposed to counter Suicune but tread carefully with offensive variants (esp if your Kou is). He really shuffles well with Roar becus his offensive attributes are comparable to Zap, awesome speed control + CM, so with Spikes it gets dicey.
Apprehends Zap quite handily and beats Jolteon in a similar fashion (esp if it lacks Roar). Can beat so many Mons because it's so easy to CM with him. Then he really just hard forces Pert or Flygon, Metagross....Aero, RoarJolt and we hoping this not for the revenge kill lmao. Sub is reeeally good on a forced switch, cancels status from Blissey (and she loses without Stoss). In the right situation it can beat Bliss, she's often chipped anyways. Or with the right support it can use Rest to effectively stall out. To go further, people have been experimenting with more defensive Kou spreads to alleviate some of it's issues and create auspicious outcomes (like there should be some new sauce).

(C-)
In actuality he should at least be in front of Regice but I'm biased, I can't re-position my goat. Anyways, Registeel has proven to be the most useful of the 3 with it's auspicious typing and stellar mixed defenses. Its certainly not bad for all the things it can attempt to do. EVs can be tailored for a wide range of interactions. Spreads T-Wave ez, Counter works like a charm, has no problem going Boom. I even had a friend running Quiet w/ Ice Punch + Hp Grass to kill Mence and a well chipped Pert (don't worry it wasn't max Spa lmao). Should also note that non-TW Magnetons lose pretty easily to TW Registeel with Stoss if they catch it on the switch

(D)
A superbly versatile shitmon whom I'm afraid will lose some viability becus of SpeedPass proceedings. I mean it can still Spore, toss Spikes on anyone slower or a specific threat. Salac has been used to pull off something annoying, passing that +1 was nice sometimes. DDance Smeargle was somewhat popular right before the decision. Every nerf to Baton Pass diminished those kind of antics Smeargle could segue, as before all these restrictions it can take devious to higher levels.

(C)
It's okaaay, yall gassin it up. Don't get me wrong-- it's sorta easy to use Foc Pun because of the immense dmg ranges it threatens with any move.
-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 119-141 (35.9 - 42.5%)
I gave you one, now go do your own calcs. As you can see it puts a dent on standard Mence, mind you this is w/out CB. It can really diminish someone's presence if they take too hard of a hit, so the receiver may have to play a guessing game or stomach the dmg. You can also hit it back, bro needs more protein. (Ideally you'd rather strike 1st) Send out the beefy tank or don't play scared, and if you hit it during Foc Pun that's like a 3 pointer, all net.

(A+)
What's the word with the bird? It's time to be honest folks, Zap is applying big pressure. Top 5!!
I understand many sentiments regarding Zap with SpeedPassing, this just further postulates it's danger level. Not knowing what the Zap in front of you has is problematic, beyond the chosen hidden power. This uncertainty is often where Zap garners momentum and can make great use of support moves (T-Wave, Sub, Toxic, Roar). There literally is not one bad Zapdos set; with intentionality Zap will always leverage it's (possible) assets. For fear of high dmg ranges or getting T-Waved few are compelled to switch into a healthy Zap besides Bliss ofc (but meh). Even then some may run Peck or the rare Hp Fighting to snipe Ttar or outlast oppos with RestTalk (Roar!!) investing in a defense to become a premier switch-in, truly a force to be reckoned with. Goodbye AgilZap </3

(B+)
Its good but sort of overrated due to it's primary usage.
|| a D-edge here, a D-edge there
hidden pwr Bug to keep Celebi away
a D-edge is near, can feel it in the air
This rock slide flinch might ruin your day ||
Its not all that good without CB but liechi can more or less (definitely less) give you the same outcome
Regardless, when the janitor comes around yk what it is
Pressure Aero is worth exploration but is obnoxious

(A)
Honestly I won't even say much. She's #6, has a lot of tools at her disposal, supports the team well by targeting specific threats, is often over-relied on, easily exploitable, vastly obese lmao aigh
Bliss has been doing what she always does & then some but I think the Mons around her are just getting better
Counter is very good, choose your last two wisely. Sing is good & she picks great essential oils.
Oh wait, you thought to come in with 50% on my Skarm, you wanted to Softboil? I have Taunt dear & I'll leave an extra layer for you mkay <3

(B+)
Like I really want to place my guy in A, but lately he been coming up short. Ngl, ModestMie > any other Mie
It reaches these beautifully ideal ranges against Zap, Celebi, Cune where that +SpA nature makes the difference btwn a clean 2hko or contemplating the switch. Oh but one time I Hpumped a lead Ttar and that shit did 90% (I guess it had a lot of HP) then I died to Crunch, like wtf man. I think ModestMie would love spikes (even sand) to secure those possible 2hkos. From what I've heard, ppl are spinning with Mie less and running 3atks, Recov type sets. Claydol is the best spinner imo, Mie can actually force out those Spikers with Tbolt or repeated STAB. Honestly, Im not sure on the consensus of bulkier variants. I hear mixed reviews on BoldMie.
I can say more but if you really be using Starmie you should know it's limitations.

(A)
Okay so for me Cune is tied with Bliss for #6 and funny shit they really do have a relationship in Calm Mind. In fact, CM Bliss is the only reliable one that beats all Suicune if you think about it. If their last Mon (or 2) is Cune using Rest you're not gonna send out Stoss Blissey and expect to win, right? In the 2v2? You need someone that can 3hko (or even 4hko) Cune to level the field or use Roar ofc, really depends. Some ppl are running SpDef Cune to contest Zapdos better, I haven't tried that but I imagine it might clutch some situations. Max HP is pretty swell, being fast is also neat. Max Spe & HP on Modest can be wonderful, being faster than many bulky variants of whoever is great works to position yourself with Sub or keep your boosts with Roar. Having Cune on your team you might ask yourself "How can I support it to open up potential win-cons & what can I run to strengthen certain MUs" Using Suicune requires some good planning to really open the floodgates. Everyone knows when you teambuild ADV you have to be ready for it.

Mag & Dug
They don't feel so delicately placed in a tier to me, they deserve more of a category
maybe they aren't even worth ranking, these MFs are gatekeepers
Mad people giving them A-rank on the VR. I don't respect these two, call me a hater
Neither of them really feel low B-tier, just shitmons with polarizing abilities, when I placed them I noticed something interesante
Dugtrio practically gatekeeps everyone C-tier (to some extent, bar Jolt) limiting their overall potential in the meta, while Mag is after Spikers
(this is not balderdash, its meant to bother anyone and C-Mons feel it the most)
Dug is the equivalent of some guy running up to a person (full speed) saying "Yo run your pockets" then decks the shit out of them
terrible source of income, so much can go wrong
Mag has more going for it but can feel worse, he's built like a flimsy souvenir magnet from 2009 lmao
Takes like ~40% from Zap's Tbolts and I know yo ass don't got lefties
It just has so many bad MUs against big threats & Dug be like "if you not a Flying type -bitch- scrub tha ground" (its a Migos song)


Let us all take a moment of silence for Cubone's mum.
Hit the dance floor once and was suddenly the life of the party
Had real fun with that, I did AgilZap with RoarCune, Hera & Psong Bi
--___
--______
--________
________--
_____--
___--
______--
--___
--_
Interactions with Dug

White are ez pickings
Yellow doesn't benefit enough/as much from Dug antics
Moltres could benefit a lot from Dug, from an offensive perspective
Jolt: boy if you don't get out my face
(ik it needs ≥1 layer)


please spare me any technicalities lmao this is very general

 

[YubelVT]

So I incorporated a simple rule while constructing this VR:
I decided to place no more than 8 Mons per tier, without + or -
D-class however, has 14 for the inclusion of some noteworthy Mons.
Yeah not too important although it clearly nominates Mons for a tier but the cut-offs aren't strict.
Despite any +/- indications anyone at the front of B-class may still be considered B+ (or even A-) and vice versa

View attachment 770463

a few notes
[S to A is positioned with intent so thats Top10, B-tier has rough placement esp btwn Mie, Aero, Dol
[I chose 8 Mons per tier (A-C) I guess to accentuate how they compare against each other, even Yama in D would be the cut-off for Shitmonsville
[I could have included Machamp, Colo, Maldo, P2, Sableye
[Cloyster should go to the end because it sucks

---

(D/C-)
I have to put Jynx at the top of D because she just might be the premier, #1 shitmon of all time. She lies on the cusp abnormality & viability (definitely leaning towards "wtf are they cooking") with very distinguished traits:
-Lovely Kiss
-95 base Spe, which isn't phenomenal but will certainly punish any 100 Speeder who lacks the faster Nature
-A toolbox of criminal tactics:
Thief on her is soooo good, do you know how many Blissey's lefties I've stolen?! Add Milotic and Metagross to the list, 9/10 this will neuter your oppo's Special tank, just try not to steal a choice band.
Taunt is good against slower CMers, Perish Song can force out the switch-in, Hp Fire can work, lmao why does she get Screens, I feel like you can pull off the most despicable shit if your mind is open. Her appeal comes in the form of opening up opportunities for physical attackers after Kiss. She often lures Milo, Ttar, Gross, Bliss and Forre.

(B-)
Yes that is Raikou in B; if Medi deserves to dragged into OU then this guy may as well too.
I know VRs do not imply definitive OU status but, if you look at most the Mons in B and up are OU
But yeah this guy really gets to work man, operating as a special offensive threat and defensive pivot. Get a nice boost and let those +1 Tbolts drizzle! Coverage is straightforward, often the prominent choice is Sub vs Roar. The latter is supposed to counter Suicune but tread carefully with offensive variants (esp if your Kou is). He really shuffles well with Roar becus his offensive attributes are comparable to Zap, awesome speed control + CM, so with Spikes it gets dicey. Apprehends Zap quite handily and beats Jolteon in a similar fashion (esp if it lacks Roar). Can beat so many Mons because it's so easy to CM with him. Then he really just hard forces Pert or Flygon, Metagross ....Aero, RoarJolt and we hoping this not for the revenge kill lmao. Sub is reeeally good on a forced switch, cancels status from Blissey (and she loses without Stoss). In the right situation it can beat Bliss, she's often chipped anyways. Or with the right support it can use Rest to effectively stall out. To go further, people have been experimenting with more defensive Kou spreads to alleviate some of it's issues and create auspicious outcomes (like there should be some new sauce).

(C-)
In actuality he should be in front of Regice but I'm biased, I can't re-position my goat. Anyways, Registeel has proven to be the most useful of the 3 with it's auspicious typing and stellar mixed defenses. It certainly isn't bad for all the things it can attempt to do. EVs can be tailored for a wide range of interactions. Spreads T-Wave ez, Counter works like a charm, has no problem going Boom. I even had a friend running Quiet w/ Ice Punch + Hp Grass to kill Mence and a well chipped Pert (don't worry it wasn't max Spa lmao).

(D)
A superbly versatile shitmon whom I'm afraid will lose some viability becus of SpeedPass proceedings. I mean it can still Spore, toss Spikes on anyone slower or a specific threat. Salac has been used to pull off something annoying, passing that +1 was nice sometimes. DDance Smeargle was somewhat popular right before the decision. Every nerf to Baton Pass diminished those kind of antics Smeargle could segue, as before all these restrictions it can take devious to higher levels.

(C)
It's okaaay, yall gassin it up. Don't get me wrong-- it's sorta easy to use Foc Pun because of the immense dmg ranges it threatens with any move.
-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 119-141 (35.9 - 42.5%)
I gave you one, now go do your own calcs. As you can see it puts a dent on standard Mence, mind you this is w/out CB. It can really diminish someone's presence if they take too hard of a hit, so the receiver may have to play a guessing game or stomach the dmg. You can also hit it back, bro needs more protein. (Ideally you'd rather strike 1st) Send out the beefy tank or don't play scared, and if you hit it during Foc Pun that's like a 3 pointer, all net.

(A+)
What's the word with the bird? It's time to be honest folks, Zap is applying big pressure. Top 5!!
I understand many sentiments regarding Zap with SpeedPassing, this just further postulates it's danger level. Not knowing what the Zap in front of you has is problematic, beyond the chosen hidden power. This uncertainty is often where Zap garners momentum and can make great use of support moves (T-Wave, Sub, Toxic, Roar). There literally is not one bad Zapdos set; with intentionality Zap will always leverage it's (possible) assets. For fear of high dmg ranges or getting T-Waved few are compelled to switch into a healthy Zap besides Bliss ofc (but meh). Even then some may run Peck or the rare Hp Fighting to snipe Ttar or outlast oppos with RestTalk (Roar!!) investing in a defense to become a premier switch-in, truly a force to be reckoned with. Goodbye AgilZap </3

(B+)
Its good but sort of overrated due to it's primary usage.
|| a D-edge here, a D-edge there
hidden pwr Bug to keep Celebi away
a D-edge is near, can feel it in the air
This rock slide flinch might ruin your day ||
Its not all that good without CB but liechi can more or less (definitely less) give you the same outcome
Regardless, when the janitor is around yk what he does
Pressure Aero is worth exploration but is obnoxious

(A)
Honestly I won't even say much. She's #6, has a lot of tools at her disposal, supports the team well by targeting specific threats, is often over-relied on, easily exploitable, vastly obese lmao aigh
Bliss has been doing what she always does & then some but I think the Mons around her are just getting better
Counter is very good, choose your last two wisely. Sing is good & she picks great essential oils.
Oh wait, you thought to come in with 50% on my Skarm, you wanted to Softboil? I have Taunt dear & I'll leave an extra layer for you mkay <3

(B+)
Like I really want to place my guy in A, but lately he been coming up short. Ngl, ModestMie > any other Mie
It reaches these beautifully ideal ranges against Zap, Celebi, Cune where that +SpA nature makes the difference btwn a clean 2hko or contemplating the switch. Oh but one time I Hpumped a lead Ttar and that shit did 90% (I guess it had a lot of HP) then I died to Crunch, like wtf man. I think ModestMie would love spikes (even sand) to secure those possible 2hkos. From what I've heard, ppl are spinning with Mie less and running 3atks, Recov type sets. Claydol is the best spinner imo, Mie can actually force out those Spikers with Tbolt or repeated STAB. Honestly, Im not sure on the consensus of bulkier Starmie. I hear mixed reviews on BoldMie.
I can say more but if you really be using Starmie you should know it's limitations.

(A)
Okay so for me Cune is tied with Bliss for #6 and funny shit they really do have a relationship in Calm Mind. In fact, CM Bliss is the only reliable one that beats all Suicune if you think about it. If their last Mon (or 2) is Cune using Rest you're not gonna send out Stoss Blissey and expect to win, right? In the 2v2? You need someone that can 3hko Cune to level the field or use Roar ofc, really depends. Some ppl are running SpDef Cune to contest Zapdos better, I haven't tried that but I imagine it can provide some staying power. Max HP is pretty swell, being fast is also neat. Max Spe & HP on Modest is actually great, being faster than many bulky variants of whoever is great works to position yourself with Sub or keep your boosts with Roar. Having Cune on your team you might ask yourself "How can I support it to maximize potential win-cons & what can I run to strengthen certain MUs or dismantle particular cores" Using Suicune requires some good planning to really open the floodgates. Everyone knows when you teambuild ADV you have to be ready for it.

Mag & Dug
They don't feel so delicately placed in a tier to me, they deserve more of a category
maybe they aren't even worth ranking, these MFs are gatekeepers
Mad people giving them A-rank on the VR. I don't respect these two, call me a hater
Neither of them really feel low B-tier, just shitmons with polarizing abilities, when I placed them I noticed something interesante
Dugtrio practically gatekeeps everyone C-tier (to some extent, bar Jolt) limiting their overall potential in the meta, while Mag is after Spikers
(this is not balderdash, its meant to bother anyone and C-Mons feel it the most)
Dug is the equivalent of some guy running up to a person (full speed) saying "Yo run your pockets" then decks the shit out of them
terrible source of income, so much can go wrong
Mag has more going for it but can feel worse, once his job is complete (if there was one) its crippling lmao
Bro takes like ~40% from Zap's Tbolts and I know yo ass don't got lefties
It just has so many bad MUs against big threats & Dug be like "if you not a Flying type -bitch- scrub tha ground" (its a Migos song)


Let us all take a moment of silence for Cubone's mum.
Hit the dance floor once and was suddenly the life of the party
Had real fun with that, I did AgilZap with RoarCune, Hera & Psong Bi
--___
--______
--________
________--
_____--
___--
______--
--___
--_
Interactions with Dug
View attachment 770496
White are ez pickings
Yellow doesn't benefit enough/as much from Dug antics
Moltres could benefit a lot from Dug maybe reliant
Jolt: boy if you don't get out my face

please spare me the technicalities lmao this is rather general

all I'm gonna say is t wave counter registeel is better than everything in c tier except heracross

 

[softshellcrabcakes]

This is my first time qualifying for a VR submission, so I'm happy to be here. I'd write up more on all my thoughts, but I'm a bit short on time this month. I still believe in Ninjask.

 

[SpamOn]

VR Submitted:

Pretty Similar to what I wrote a few months back so I won't elaborate on much. A few takes I will give based on what I have been thinking about recently:
-

Tyranitar

Still number 1 for me. Maybe this comes from the perspective of a ladder play, but sand limits so much random cheese. Also, provided you want Sand, you can pretty much always find 4 moves that you want on a Tyranitar for any team. I really recommend people try using less "standard" sets. Sub-Punch can be an absolute nightmare to play around given this things basically learns every coverage move in the game. I also love just using things like bulky MixTar with Pursuit. Pursuit is just an amazing move and at a high level you can get very creative about how you use it and help enable loads of other stuff - Pursuit + Grass for Pert, Pursuit + IB for Mence, Pursuit + Slide for loads of Flyers.

-

Gengar

- Doesn't fit onto a wide breadth of styles, but the teams it does fit onto are amazing. I think uber-bulky Wisp+Taunt Gar should be used more. I see so many fat teams that are fundamentally weak to this and often rely on Dol killing it when it tries to SpinBlock. If you resist the temptation and just spam Wisp+Taunt you can wreak havoc. If not using this, good ol' 3 atks+boom is great.

-

Zapdos

Bit of a Marmite-Mon for a lot of people at the moment it seems. I don't rate it that highly. I really struggle to fit offensive sets onto teams due its lack of a clear defensive niche compared to other flyers. It also thuds into a lot of special walls and so requires support from something like Dug (Special offence) or Gar+Spikes (El Classico) to help remove them. Registeel is also throwing a bit of a spanner in the works here. I am still rating it A out of respect to those teams since it is obviously one of the most powerful mons when the right defensive piece has been removed.
Using it as an enabler of physical attackers like fighters on MixOff or Spikeless balance is valid, but these teams often struggle with natural speed and are weak to fast revenge killers (Aero/Dug/Offmie) and this is where the Agil-Pass ban is hurting it. It is also increasingly competing with Raikou here it seems as an electric type attacker.
One thing I will say is that I think Bolt, Ice, Tox, Protect/Roar is the best set in most cases and the one I try to fit onto teams. At least I don't like Grass + T-Wave in a lot of situations. Blanking into Dol, Bi, Gon isn't worth being able to hit RefPert, and Grass Zap being used as a Pert switch in is often massively awkward anyways.
DefZap isn't really my thing so I won't say too much about it. Definitely valid and strong in the right circumstances, but I think you need to invest in something like weather clear or Aroma to make it reliable at its job which leads to a pretty specific kind of team.

-

Aerodactyl

God tier ladder mon. If you want to make a climb, this thing + Spikes is often the way to go. It is great against random cheese, provides paths to win a lot of games and rewards good players who are able to get an advantage in the early/middle game via getting up Spikes and chipping the relevant walls. Not higher just cause it and its team style, though strong, are often highly telegraphed and prepped for by good players.

-

Moltres

Not a very odd placement, but I think Molt is interesting. It taught me more about teambuilding than any other mon: embrace the inconsistency.
Molt near auto wins some MUs but is hard walled by Blissey (and basically only Blissey). Trying to stack spikes and Roar Bliss multiple times to break through it is not reliable (plus Molt+Gar is too hard to support IMO). Accepting that it won't achieve much offensively in some games and finding other ways to punish Blissey is the best way. This might seem obvious now but I remember struggling with it for so long expecting it to do more than it could. Molt + SubCM Jirachi is good and I am big fan of Molt+CB Tar. With Molt's defensive issues and the time it needs to break through some structures, these teams always seem to have more of a "peaky" MU spread, but I think that is okay sometimes for the upside this mon provides.

-

Fighters

Hera is still the best fighter IMHO. Has a unique defensive profile to allow it to get into the field and is one of the few physical attacks that matches up well into Pert. Megahorn is a crazy move. Sub-Punch is my preferred set and I think it's amazing - consistently gets value and fits well on balance teams with Para and/or Wish support. Not a fan of SD+3atks - it feels like it doesn't have the consistency of Sub-Punch or the immediate power of CB which you would like on a mon which wants to be an early/mid game breaker. Salac sets are ridiculous at times but obviously aren't that consistent.

I probably shouldn't have rated Medi this high, but you will just lose to it in 5 turns once in a while so you have to respect that. Still feel it's a bit over-hyped cause it basically needs to get good value as a lead/on its first entry. A common sequence is Medi vs Bliss/Tar → pivot directly/indirectly to Skarm → Skarm takes a Medi hit make a Spike and gets Mag trapped →Medi never does anything again. It's just so frail and isn't that fast.

I find Breloom to be very inconsistent. A lot of teams will have a way to either blank it or something like a Mence which makes it into a momentum sink after Sporing something. Obviously Spore is a crazy move, but it lacks the targeted progress making that I would like - it is often hard to predict what your opponent will sleep sack and thus hard to offensively gameplan around having Loom vs a lot of other breakers it is competing with. Also, this thing is kinda hurt by the Speed-Pass ban as I think it was one the best/most underrated receivers. Maybe just not one for me.

Machamp has a unique place among the ADV fighters as the Bulk Up set can 1v1 a lot of the typical Fighter checks like MixMence and Skarm and is far less Dug Weak. The main issue is Cross Chop's inaccuracy and PP, which means it is a bit of a lottery mon to ladder with. Champ is also pretty slow, slower than a lot of the things it would like to break through, and so it doesn't feel like it gets many entries before it dies.

As I said in my previous VR, I don't think Yama is that good. A lot of teams with it are too all in and using Yama to break fat, inflexible or have some major defensive hole. There are times it gets quite a few Knock Offs and carries it must be said. Probably best on very fat teams, but there it has serious completion from Armaldo (and Kingler!?).

Unfortunately, Blaziken is very bad. It's a Fire type that is weak to Psychic and so struggles against Bi and Rachi. It's a Fighting type that is weak to some of the tiers common physically defensive Water's. Don't use.

-

Registeel

Very legit and annoying to fight. Perhaps I should have rated it higher but it's hard to say how much of a fad it is. Could definitely be OU in the future.

-

Venusaur

Venu is very underrated. There are so many cool synergies here to exploit given its unique set of tools. Pairs really well with Sub-Liechi Aero, OffGon, SuitTar and is just generally a pest to deal with. Sleep + better defensive typing means I seriously consider it over Leech + 3atks Celebi when I don't think I need Bi's ability to switch into Gengar/Para or am more worried about Dug.

-

Ludicolo

I think this deserves more exploration on both Special and Mixed Offence. Probably the most consistent dedicated weather clearer. I prefer it to Kingdra as it has more mid-game value due to Leech seed and its typing. I feel this is particularly valuable to Special Offence as Leech farms Blissey in some games it helps really enable stuff like SubCM Raikou/Suicune (when building these teams I am always thinking about how to make them more resilient against not getting the correct dug traps). On MixOff, as well as there being things like Bulky DD Mence which really appreciate weather clear, it counter-sweeps against a lot of Aero teams which can otherwise be very threatening.
There is probably also a place for stall Ludicolo as well which I should look into.

 

[L3W]

At the end of their VR posts, everybody says that they don't want to take the time to rank shitmons, so I thought giving them a serious look would be amusing. Since I invested a lot of time into the 4BL challenge this year and seriously considered almost every mon available, I feel uniquely qualified to do a VR including them all, so here it is. I've been playing a lot of ladder and zero tours, so my experiences are based on that. I've also included my OU takes obviously.

General Principles for ranking BLs:

• I rank mons with niches; the Johto starters are all probably better than a lot of mons here but I believe they're completely outclassed so they don't make the cut
• Water type with ice beam and usable special attack = good
• Ghost types are really good fits on spikes
• Levitate/flying type - arguably the best trait a gen3 mon can have, so you think these mons would be ranked higher, but OU takes all the good ones. Most of the BL floaters are actually just awful
• Explosion + good typing makes just about anything viable
• Speed > base 100 + some other usable trait (encore, endeavor, cm, cb + good stab/coverage, boom)
• Low distribution utility moves (spikes, spin, knock off, heal bell, perish song) will get you a spot here
• Because of crocune, water absorb automatically makes just about any mon usable
• if you can beat blissey 1v1 without without booming, you're probably viable

Hope you enjoy the read!

1-36: Boring OU Stuff (with a few hot takes)

1: S Tier

1. - Sand chip etc. Definitely my favorite mon to use. Really versatile in the builder and in the game. Elevates a ton of strategies. All sets are really good for breaking or trading in most games. DD is the single best set for controlling the board. Ttar is so strong and bulky that nothing outside of a select few checks reliably beats it or prevents its setup. This enables offense to design repeatable lines, making it one of the best offense enablers. My favorite set, bulky lefties DD, isn’t as good right now because bliss is running status moves more, but it’s still the most flexible DD set overall because it gets to play the long game and choose when/whether to DD. Also the best dd set against dug stall. I feel like I’m always finding new ways to use tar. I used to hate mixtar, but I’ve come around, especially on lum focus punch variants. Bkc and suit are going strong. I have a moderate cb-dedge addiction.

2-4: A+ Tier

2. - I had Skarm here for a while. Really hard for me to pick between the two. The main argument for pert is that revenge killing is really powerful, the best revenge killers (zap, gar, aero, zard, mixmence to a lesser degree) are tar/aero/dd mence/meta weak, and pert is the only reliable check to them that outputs decent offense itself. If you want to drop pert, you need a really good reason, because doing so usually requires decompressing its role into two mons. Pert works on mixed offense and trapper teams, but it’s at home on spikes. This could be an argument for skarm above pert, but I also value forre, cloy, and smeargle teams, and pert is easily the best water on those. What really pushes pert above skarm for me is the recent upswing of end pert. Extremely good at gaining value and very frustrating to play against.

3. - every adv’ers most powerful weapon and most feared foe. I sometimes find it frustrating to use, though. It’s held back hard by 4MSS. I often feel pigeonholed into running peck + tox so that I can play against all spinners, but that set doesn’t abuse skarm’s broken defensive traits. Peck tect might be the best overall set but it’s weak. Tox tect has the highest upside but the worst downside. Spikes are broken, yes, but skarm (outside of maybe tox+tect or taunt+tox in the right mu’s) doesn’t really generate momentum itself. This is what makes cloy, forre, smeargle, and spikeless strats viable imo. If no other spikers existed, Skarm would easily be ranked #2 or #1.

4. - ranked her #3 last time. She’s still going strong. Really the only thing keeping her in check is the fact that using her means you have to switch in to focus punch.

5-10: A Tier

5. - Too weak to too many high BST moves. Unlike pert it draws fire blast which is a lot harder to switch into. Gets 2hko’ed by dd tar, doesn’t ko it back from full. That said, if you believe in adv offense (I do) you can’t rank metagross outside of the top 5. I think cb sucks if it doesn’t get raises, but agility is amazing team support as are all boom + 3a sets. Tox and tect are nice too.

6. - this is the highest I’ve ever ranked mence. Mixmence spikes balance is a classic team style that I don’t think will ever go away. Works well on spikes offense, too - we’ve seen some good jolt mixmence’s. I realized recently that mixmence is extremely good against most aero teams because they often use pert, they rarely use mons like milotic, suicune and snorlax, and they often come with sand which hurts interim checks like zap, gar and blissey. For this reason I think mixmence might be one of the ways to save spikeless offense post-speedpass ban. Cb and wish tect have obvious issues but they feel unexplored. The recent dd mence explorations are what brings it this high, though. It’s a lot harder to play around mence when it’s making full use of its coverage options. Fly-brick-fire is probably my favorite alternative set, but I used and liked rock-brick-eq (on dragonite lulz but same concept applies) and I think the sub/refresh sets have genuinely useful applications as well. Dd mence is just good enough against dug stall and aero spikes to make spikeless offense worthwhile.

7. - not splashable, but I think dug stall is the single strongest team archetype ADV has to offer. IMO it only consistently sweats against lax, gengar, fighters, and maybe rest zap, but these teams can tech and adapt to any of these matchups. This is why I’m ranking dug so highly, but of course it does more than make blissey and suicune unkillable. Weak boom + dug + special spam offenses seem really promising even if I haven’t used them much, and spikeless aero-dug feels legit as well. Trapping is really powerful. I can’t really put my finger on why, but I feel dug is the single OU with the highest untapped potential.

8. - the older I get, the more I find that I don’t want to play adv without spin. Dol is a really important enabler of defense and offense alike. Can we really say Cune is better than dol if Cune needs dol 90% of the time? Also, if dug stall is the strongest archetype in adv, shouldn’t its anchor be in the top 10? I used to look at claydol solely as a reliable spinner, and that it is, but lately I’ve had claydol’s offensive traits on my mind more. It’s great at trading with tar, gar, celebi, zapdos, and waters. Along with meta, lax, and the regis, it’s also part of the “get out of jail free” club of explosion users that live just about every hit.

9. - I used to be much, much lower on gar. I still don’t use it much, but my opinion on it has completely flipped. Completely unique in what it does. One of the few viable ways to drop spin/spikes control. Great with spikes or dug, but I think spikeless trapless might be able to use it well too.

10. - my favorite bird has dropped in my rankings a bit. Bliss stone walls most sets, and it’s not the ohko machine you want it to be vs offense. Registeel’s newfound place on offense hurts it, but zap is probably the main reason registeel rose to prominence in the first place. Zap dug offense is slowly dying, and rest zap while great isn’t bulky enough to take on molt, off cune, cm jira, blaze zard etc. Sometimes it feels like zap needs a ghost to handle bliss + claydol. It’s still the most flexible spikes-immune that has great offensive & defensive qualities and is useful at all points of a game. DDtar-like in how it matches up so well against so much of the tier 1v1. Because of this amazing mu spread, I think zap can still work on spikeless even without agility pass even though it’s more specific. I’ve been liking sub-tox without bp. Sub pass, tox, twave, dry pass, drill peck, and agility all have their place. I also haven't built rest zap in a while - I wanna give that a whirl again. One of my favorite adv sets.

11-16: A- Tier

11. - the second best spinner. Water typing is great, recovery is great, speed is even better. Modest recover mie is really good. Don’t love how mie takes spikes and sand chip, but it has tools to make up for that. I have starmie ahead of a lot of amazing sweepers and breakers because I value spin extremely highly. I still think the dedicated cleaner offensive sets suck but I can probably be convinced otherwise. Offensive waters are crazy strong in the right matchups, and the new mystic water set has 6-0ed me from lead enough times to convince me that there’s something real to STAB water off of base 115 speed.

12. - speed, power, longevity. He’s got it all. I expect to see more spikeless aero in the future.

13. - I cannot get myself to stop playing lax. He’s heavily flawed, yes, but the upside is a mon that’s impossible to wall long-term and honestly short-term as well. Like it or not, dual trap rest lax is legit. Pursuit opens lax up to run much more dangerous sets, but shadow ball sets are still really good. I tend to prefer lax + spin to lax + mag, but I still think the latter is legit. I actually think blue offense is an all-time great team. Of course it has exploitable flaws, but what team doesn’t? I think collectively we associate the team too much with the sample team warriors who are drawn to it and cloud the ladder.

14. - sometimes jira feels like #1, but here it is at 14. I don’t even think it’s inconsistent or anything. I’m just ranking it this low because I find it hard to fit on teams. It lacks concrete defensive utility outside of annoying cb mons and blocking all of skarm’s utility moves. It’s a rock resist that doesn’t check tyranitar. It’s a special check that loses to twave and sub zapdos and cm’ers. Cm sets are great, but they don’t boost your speed past dug snd aero, and they still have the issue of occupying awkward defensive space. Jira took a small hit with the speed pass ban.

15. - consistently inconsistent. Every set has auto-win matchups and other games where it simply fails to do anything. That said, the upside is definitely there. Usually if you’re dropping pert it’s so that you can fit cune. Cune is one of the few mons that makes spikeless teams worth it. I also think bold cune dug bliss dol spikes has a solid argument for the best team of all time. Cune spike off feels untapped.

16. - also consistently inconsistent. I like all sets, but I hate all sets. Combos I like recently are leech cm recover + dug, leech cm 2a + mag + lax, leech giga fire + aero, cm psy fire bp + dug, cm 3a + wish blissey, and leech perish song + blissey.

17-20: B+ Tier

17. - the top 16 are the mons I consider foundational to OU. Viability takes a huge drop off from A- to B+. As for forre, it offers semi-reliable spiking, spinning, spinner-pressuring, and booming. B+ material.

18. - I like it on spikes and spikeless. Jumpy posted a sub pass set fully bulked out to live hidden powers from opposing electrics which I thought was really cool. Long live Kerts.

19. - acceptable spikes control. I like mag teams, but they all have the same core issue. They use mag.

20. - gotta thank Vapicuno for teaching everyone how to Cloy. It’s the only spiker that actually does damage which is so so so so good.

21-24: B Tier

21. - solidly OU. Amazing typing and bulk. Hard stop to basically anything offensive, and defense isn’t too comfortable against it either. Lots of exploration happening with this guy too. I’m interested in curse + focus punch and curse rest. Luckily, gengar is still around to keep the zoomers in check.

22. - insanely oppressive, but only on one team. I don’t really buy the hypnosis stuff, and cele + milo stuff honestly feels fringe and likely outdone by cune.

23. - been trying Zard spikeless again recently and it feels really mid compared to mence and even gyara builds. I don’t think he’s mixoff’s answer to the speed pass ban. Zard spikes feels stronger. Still a great phys ttar partner for how they mu divide pert vs mono waters.

24. - really good on exactly one team, just like milo, but the one team isn’t as good. As a trade off, gon has a little bit more splashability. I like cb, and mixed/speedy phys lefties sets don’t seem that hard to solve with a little bit of effort. I have yet to put in that effort, though.

25-28: B- Tier

25. - the combination of speed, bulk, and spammable/powerful stab make Hera my pick for the strongest fighter. I hate how it has to run from skarm, but there are ways around that. Fighters generally have a lot of problems though.

26. - I rate offensive waters highly, and this one has a way around blissey to boot. I don’t think the speed pass ban really hurt it much tbh - you can still switch out against lead zapdos or elect to trade damage onto it. Wish tect sets do cool things on fatter teams as well. Water absorb really elevates any mon that gets it.

27. - the gyara slander has gone a bit too far. It’s perfectly usable even if it requires mag most of the time.

28. - I’m not buying into kou yet, and it’s entirely because of one mon. Or rather, three digletts. That said, I think kou offers real value both to mixed and spikes offenses and the ABR kou + bliss spikes fats are very good as well. Glad to see more experimentation with this guy because his natural traits are so good.

29-36: C Tier

29. - that’s right, I’m ranking champ above medicham and breloom. I love fitting as much defense as possible onto my offenses without losing offensive integrity, and champ does this much better than them. Misses notwithstanding, bulk up machamp has the power and bulk to basically guarantee value every single game, which to me makes it better at doing medicham’s job. I don’t mind focus punch 4a either.

30. - great cune partner, glad to see it being used more. Was my best friend during the 4BL challenge. Its main problem is power issues. I think cb and lefties focus punch + spikes are two ways rock has to address this. I think toxic is worth trying on it, too.

31. - meh

32. - I love venu. It has the best defensive utility out of all the sleepers other than blissey, but blissey obviously doesn’t fit on all the teams that want to use sleep. I like spikes and spikeless versions. I recommend prioritizing doing damage over sleep if you can afford to.

33. - don’t use it myself, but I’ve found smear spikes off to be pretty consistently hard to play against.

34. - pretty busted ngl

35. - the lottery mon. Will it be lum, cb or salac? Will it spam focus punch and die to two tar crits? Will it stay in on lead mixmence and 2hko it, or will it die in one to cb or dd? Will it crit? What about reversal medicham with weather clear, is it sub or endure? Higher upside than any other fighter for sure, but the frailty turns me off. As far as fishy leads go, I think starmie is more effective.

36. - really bothers me that this fighter gets ohko’ed by blissey. That said, I respect its potential and have definitely gotten messed up by it before.

D+ tier: these are all legit mons I’d use on high ladder without a second thought

37-53: D+ Tier

37. - one of the best snorlax partners, and it also happens to hard wall a non-negligible portion of the tier. Not OU material, but absolutely worth using.

38. - the best knock off mon imo. SD is great because it both helps against lax and gives you a way to break knock off absorbers faster. A lot of knock off fats really need extra help versus celebi, and maldo provides that.

39. - haven’t figured out how to make regice not feel terrible to play, but I respect it. I’m interested in psych up sets

40. - I’m probably the biggest sceptile advocate. I think endeavor petaya is fantastic. It’s like end pert but it switches in to different targets. I never bother with sub seed or sd sets or anything

41. - really cool combination of traits. Anything that traps gar effectively is always going to have a niche. Being free entry for meta, jira, cm pass cele, meta, and phys mons if it lacks charm is a huge problem for it which is why I don’t think it can ever be OU.

42. - not as good as its ladder popularity would have you think, but I still think it’s legit. Off waters are really good.

43. - worse Kingdra with a little bit more splashability thanks to its typing and access to leech seed. Off waters are really good.

44. - I feel like no game is ever free against this thing. Never used it myself but heal bell is really fun.

45. - if it’s enough for fruhdazi it’s enough for me.

46. - this mon looks like it should be 8-12 places higher since it has levitate, wisp, high defense, toxic immunity and explosion off a solid base attack. I find its boom really hard to click, though. The non-boom versions are probably just asking for focus punch crits and body slam paras.

47. - I’m entertaining the lead wak offense trend for now. We’ll see what becomes of it. Wak as a breaker on balance is probably outdone by mons like ttar and snorlax.

48. - I ran protect sets for 4BL and it was honestly not a bad cune/pert hybrid. Not sure that sort of thing is generally viable over one of those two mons, but since off waters are so good, it worked for me. I think the Salac versions are easily the best still.

49. - never really used it myself, but spinblocking and beating lax in one slot is few and far between

50. - probably a slightly more consistent clops with lower upside

51. - imo heal bell and focus punch set it just enough apart from mence to have a small niche. It can compress fighter check and crocune answer onto stalls which is completely unique. I’m interested in dd + focus punch + hp rock + eq. If you can get drum pass to work, hp ghost + focus punch + eq is great for getting that sweet OHKO on roar cune and skarm.

52. - insanely good matchup vs jolt-special-wall teams which earns it a real niche

53. - sorry BKC

D- tier: it isn’t hard for me to imagine teams where these mons are the optimal choices. Would be happy building with these mons

54-69: D- Tier

54. - ain’t no cloy but it does things

55. - offensive waters are good

56. - makes zapdos teams hate their life at the cost of being genuinely terrible

57. - adamant donphan with paralysis support might be him. The ABR forre phan idea is really cool too. Wishes he was claydol but still might be worth it

58. - I was pleasantly surprised by the number of sweeps I got with this thing during 4BL. I only bothered with CM 3a, but I’m sure encore/knock/recover sets can do things. The big issues are spikes, aero/jolt, ttar (suit or not) and bliss. Worth trying to optimize imo

59. - feels legit, just not in my hands

60. - evil mon. Kinda prone to getting crit by starmie

61. - does cool things on superman. I feel like offensive sets with ice beam + a hidden power + two of bell/tox/roar have potential on spikes because of how well they check pert & cune

62. - has just enough in its toolkit to be useful

63. - off waters are good, remember?

64. - snorlax/machamp fusion can’t be that bad. I have some great replays with this thing

65. - cool pick on superman, can’t see it anywhere else

66. - this mon is so bad, but it is THE correct pick on a few teams

67. - thief + intimidate + fire blast are enough for viability

68. - really solid defensive typing with barely usable stats. Owns all fighters

69. - honestly hydro + crunch + taunt + dedge or ib is a good partner for gengar on spikes offenses. Switches in on claydol psychic & suit tar and forces them out, damages mono waters and prevents them from healing. I think it’s usable.

E tier: these mons technically have irreplaceable niches, but I think optimizing these niches onto workable 6’s is probably not worth it for anything other than bragging rights and boredom

70-89: E Tier

70. - I really think p2 is this bad and that every mon above it has more legitimate use cases. Stonewalling dd birds doesn’t matter when you give free entry to half of the scary mons on the other team that break your other counters. Hax magnet if used as a special wall, no resistances to speak of, can’t really handle status. Magneton and dugtrio have similar defensive limitations as trappers, but they both have far better traits that allow them to be used more generally, including the ability to generate offense. I know 70 is low for p2, but I don’t even remember the last p2 replay I saw. I think most players will rank p2 higher because of legacy reasons and because they haven’t bothered to work this low on the viability chart.

71. - does real things, but it’s probably too reliant on mu and rng

72. - I’ve always wanted to give cb a shot. Intimidate on that speed tier is cool

73. - I know good players have used it, but it’s a niche choice on a decidedly mediocre team style.

74. - niche choice on a decidedly mediocre team style

75. - I don't see why you would ever use any of this mon's sets over one of charizard, camerupt, machamp, heracross or medicham

76. - speed tier + endeavor + liechi/petaya pass makes it conceptually usable

77. - flail + aero speed tier + sand immunity means he can maybe do things

78. - I have no idea what eggy can do, but its innate traits are good enough to imagine a world where he does things

79. - kudos to hclat for figuring this one out. I tried it extensively for 4BL and it was really, really bad as a standalone breaker lol. Decent supplement to aero and tar though

80. - fastest (?) sd user with rock slide and earthquake/brick break? Hyper cutter too? I could see it

81. - would be a full tier higher if dug didn’t exist

82. - off waters are good. This one gets thief and hypnosis, but are you really going to use it over suicune or vaporeon?

83. - don't really know what to make of this mon as I've never used it myself, but I think the few mag lax teams I've seen it on might very well be onto something.

84. - off water with yawn and encore? Is blues onto something…

85. - I actually think early bird kanga has real potential as the only physical attacker/bliss punish that can self-heal and shrug off status without much difficulty. Base 90 attack is pretty rough for it, though

86. - sorry Kollin7

87. - Off. Waters. Are. Good. But this one sucks let’s be real

88. - memento cheese

89. - water absorb + fighting stab is technically a niche even without speed pass

F tier: same description as E tier but somehow even worse. As for anything left off this list, I either forgot it or I truly believe it is 100% outclassed by something else in all scenarios

90-118: F Tier

90. - scizor was probably D-tier before hclat showed the world what it does

91. - mag that mimic’s spikes

92. - maybe 1/50 games you prefer this over kingdra

93. - MVP of a few of my 4BL teams. Has great natural qualities, but it's this low because you really cannot justify it over starmie outside of extremely specific scenarios. It is technically true that starmie doesn’t learn roar or refresh, though, so blastoise at least gets ranked.

94. - achieves calm cune bulk with higher power, access to twave, and a fighting resistance for mix mon checking. These traits are pretty good, but suicune is just straight up better anyway most of the time. Crunch/bug weaknesses and much lower phys bulk are unwelcome

95. - do not fall into the Rhydon trap. It is 26 places lower than sharpedo.

96. - somehow even worse than Rhydon.

97. - perish song + rest nat cure + fighting resist is something that you don’t run into every day

98. - shoutout Johnald

99. - what does this

100. - mon even do

101. - honestly this mon should probably be 40 places higher than this but I choose to ignore its cheese potential

102. - I think using this would actually be fun, but there's no serious argument for its viability

103. - I was thinking Sd + hydro + ice + sludge bomb might barely be usable as a mono pert & milo punish & mixmence/zard answer

104. - speed + cross chop is a thing that this can do

105. - probably a worse linoone/tauros?

106. - probably outspeeds a lot of dd mence which is hilarious

107. - pursuits claydol and has good typing and decent stats

108. - gets cm pass and disruption moves. I've seen Nal pull miracles with this thing

109. - cool typing

110-112. - anything with trick + cb can probably do something

113. - conceivably the most optimal choice for double ghost spikes offense

114. - dragon dance + stab earthquake + somehow usable speed tier

115. - it does indeed pursuit trap claydol

116. - doesn’t have the coverage or power for good SD or CB sets, but you can try anyway

117. - leech seed + flying stab for grass types is actually cool

118. - can cb revenge kill things while resisting fighting?? Maybe mean look + screech + confuse ray + fly? Why did they make crobat so bad????

Entire List

 

[Croba7 King]

Gotta say first and foremost how much I love ADV as do we all, god bless you adv thank you.

Been laddering for a little over a year now and it was my first time hitting 1800+ elo in July but usually more of a 1600ish battler. Definitely had the help of good old rng on my run.

My table is a little more scrambled as I enjoy using shit mons on teams and trying to make them as viable as possible, lots of fun to be had there.
But in general, I believe that fat blob teams and balanced TSS are the best play styles by far and the most consistent. That being said, these are also the play styles that the best players use consistently and I found myself getting bogged down and jaded in mirror matchups quite often which I did not enjoy. On my run to 1800 I used exclusively a variation on a Kerts spikes offense team with a smeargle lead and offensive Jirachi. I have quite a few teams in this style that I enjoy alternating and I've found that while not being the most consistent play style, it really is a fun way to ladder and can result in a lot of faster paced wins + quicker games. Also enjoy balanced TSS, stall, special offense and mixed offense as well though.

Nothing really new to add to the mix but I'll specify on some reasons I put mons where I did.

in S
As an offensive lover I think this thing is f***ing amazing and pretty much always finds value in a game. A lot of offensive teams struggle with breaking common cores sometimes and I love the immediate pressure/flexibility this thing gives me coupled with Gengar explosion usually to pressure skarm/bliss cores.

in A
I just really love this things matchup into other TSS style teams sometimes and the spin/spikes/boom combo is soso nice. I use it with zap cannon to pressure skarm and hit other things on the switch (gar/mie). Also is really good with higher Defense investment and hidden power something (bug for tar/dol steel for tar/aero) sometimes. But mostly run zap cannon for the TSS matchups.

in C
Big big fan. Although I admit it can be inconsistent (sometimes useless) and get some really bad lead matchups occasionally if you lead it. I think the plus side is worth it. Can really start a game off strong with a spore/spike combo. Destiny bond something. Whirlwind out boosters. Explode maybe. I lead some hyper offensive teams with it but just make sure I have a good mence pivot/aero/dug answer. That being said those 3 things still give this style of team trouble usually. But I have to show my guy some love since he was the starter for the only team I've hit 1800 with so far.

in C
Really really good and really really easy to make good viable teams with them. I think these guys are highly underrated but I know a lot of top players like using them and I can see why. Registeel great special wall for offense leaning teams. Regirock great tar/aero/mence answer (cant be the only answer though) on offense teams. Regice can be really good on special offense builds i've found as it can pressure Blissey with the explosion threat.

Shit mons in D
I believe all of these "shit mons" can work on the right team with the right strategy and support. Also great for surprise factor which is important sometimes.

Shittier mons in E
More novelty mons IMO but can work sometimes. Obviously slaking/missy have been used to success before on the right team. Biased in my tenta/bat/duck picks I just like using them rarely cuz they are some of my fav mons.

Happy laddering :)

 

[YubelVT]

Venusaur is high key better than breloom but nobody else is woke enough to agree with me.

 

[Ummbr]

My submitted VR

 

[vapicuno]

For the past few years, I have not participated in VRs, but the speedpass vote has made me realize the following:

By choosing to ban speedpass, much of the new (or returning) generation of players deprioritize the amazing creativity that exists and -- the key part -- the creativity that has *yet to be discovered* in favor of the comfortable, safe, and predictable metagame, where surprises are seen as negatives. I hope that by posting about the way I think about the metagame, I can discourage people from continuing to stifle the metagame in future.

Immediately after the speedpass ban, I sought to see how one could continue innovating with BP while also sampling some trends. Could I compensate for the lack of speed some other way? I built this team, paste here, (with some tweaks from collective input in the ADV community) and reached 1800 to qualify for the VRs. It is unique in that while many offense teams break with slows mons sweep with a fastmon, this team dual uses SubPass to break early game and support the same breakers with Wish as sweepers in the late game with paraspam.

Proof of 1800

My purpose of building this team is twofold:
1. To show that as stifled as it is, BP remains a dynamic part of our metagame that should not be further nerfed. One common rhetoric is "[insert stat here]-pass is a small part of our metagame" - the metagame that you see but not the one it can be. Around the time of this and the previous suspect test, I built teams with new ideas designed to test boundaries of healthy BP strategies. My point is that if I, one person, only had a few days and came up with several new ideas just in response to a suspect test, the collective of teambuilders can really innovate and push the metagame in many interesting directions altogether if we keep an open mind.
2. Because I believe that voters should have skin in the game (in suspects and VRs). I disagree with the idea of voting on BP without even having tried to use BP strats, or writing about mons on VRs without having tried using them.

Even though I have built with Raikou and Registeel in the past, I'd feel dishonest writing about teams I made years ago in different contexts. Now that I have (publicly) built new teams with the trends of the day, Raikou and Registeel with reasonable success, I feel qualified to vote. Now for the VR post.

The larger context:
Three related major shifts happened: the rise of 1) El clasico (/Pixie TSS), 2) Raikou, 3) Registeel. They are related by the attempt to provide more specially defensive coverage without resorting to dedicated special walls, and also their attempt to check each other. This philosophy and the specific mons' influence on the metagame extends beyond these cases - for example, Jolteon provides sp.def coverage while being a good check to Zapdos in clasico-style teams and Raikou teams.

I will explain my VRs in the context of these shifts.

1. El clásico
/ Pixie TSS
Over the years, TSS has evolved from composing of
(2018) mons with well-defined roles (spinblocker, walls, Pursuit) to
(2021) general damage with key defensive backbone (MixMence + Blissey) to
(2025) damage dealing with distributed backbone (special side - Leech3AtkCelebi+Jirachi, clasico Zapdos+Refpert+Aero; physical - Mence+OffPert/Dol).
This distributed backbone also means that some breakers/sweepers that ordinarily cannot break through dedicated walls now perform much better (Raikou, Jolteon, AgiliGross).

2. Raikou
Beyond being a strong exploiter of distributed special backbones, Raikou also
(2020) Outspeeds the slow Dugtrio trend that special offenses adopted, and
(2022) Performs strongly in sandless environments, providing special coverage where Blissey cannot (against other Blissey, Suicune, Celebi) or complementing monoBliss, which is very strong and almost a physical wall.
- Its physical bulk is also impressively allows it to be played more aggressively, especially with the Rest set (a nice revival of an old MDragon RestCune+RestKou team).
- The concept of having a special backbone also applies to spikeless offenses, where Raikou's pure electric type and speed is a huge asset. For example, replacing Zapdos with (or using it with) Raikou on a spikeless offense team improves its matchup notably against Gengar.

3. Registeel
Registeel had sporadically been used on TSS teams (far back from an infamous Sand Veil team by CZ (2017)); also this team of mine (2022) so I do not consider its rise on TSS to be an innovation.
(2023) Rather, its use on spikeless offense (iirc first prominently by BIHI on blue offense) is novel. Looking back, its similarities to Hclat's Sp.Def Magneton is striking - tanking random special attacks and sometimes physical attacks with ease and annoying its checks with status. Well known features of Registeel are 1) defensive prowess which allows compensation with offensive sets on other mons (Endpert Registeel is a zoomer meme by this point), 2) consistent chip with SToss hitting all targets, 3) Boom.

But other underrated aspects also are
A) Registeel's pivoting ability - switch into any Earthquake user on a resisted move (like Metagross), and you force them to face Counter, and they either switch out or go for EQ and trade. This makes getting a flying-type in very safe regardless of whether you actually have Counter.
B) Registeel's ability to trade.

These underrated aspects A & B bring me to my personal experience of using Registeel - Counter and Thunder Wave are staple moves but rather easy to play around. In my team above, I used HP Grass > Counter because I retain the pivoting benefits of looking like I have Counter (and the threat of TWave) while allowing me to trade with Pert, or, after grass is revealed, direct damage/boom to a difficult mon like Skarmory / Blissey. TWave is less droppable, but many spikeless offense teams do not go faster than 328 which makes them really susceptible to Gengar, so Zap Cannon / Thunder are options as well.

Ok, what else has changed?

The BPers:
Zapdos - the above trends + speedpass nerf make the metagame unkind to Zapdos. However, some possible adaptations especially to Zapdos on clasico-style teams are
1) Light Screen, which becomes useful to all mons on distributed sp.def backbone teams; on my way to qualifying for speedpass reqs, I combined that with 4Atks Modest OffGar which was really threatening to spinners.
2) Double-Edge / Hyper Beam which deals with Raikou/Jolteon; DE also has nifty self-KO recovery denial mechanics vs Blissey.
What other ways are there to pass? I want take the opportunity to promote
3) EvilZap or rather the Sub/BP/Rest/Tbolt version of it that watermess helped to make, which provides a very safe way to maintain momentum (to dug) vs these sp.def cores.

Vaporeon - After a few experiments, the easiest path forward to me is Sub/Wish/BP/Surf. Wishpassing is a very good combination with Sub because
1) Even if Vaporeon gets roared out, it can still Wishpass.
2) It self-sustains Vaporeon against targets it subs on such as STossers (and there is more than one in today's metagame).
3) SubPass Vaporeon is naturally paired with bulky breakers (CBMeta, Snorlax, Fighters etc.) that benefit greatly from Wish.

Other stuff

Salamence - Everyone is on the divide and conquer train now. Better KO a Blissey + wipe out virgin 5 while losing to Metagross than doing 70% to everything. I fancy DD/Brick/Refresh/Fly myself in this meta with a prevalence of dedicated stalls (v5), but that set is also very useful against traditional TSS (it beats Skarm/Bliss/Tar, with good EVs survives Ice attacks from Gar/Pert as well, and shrugs off Molt Wisp). I acknowledge offensive Brick sets used now as well.

Jolteon - TSS version of Raikou beneficial for countering the distributed sp.def backbones mentioned above.

Starmie - Again another Pokemon good vs distributed sp.def backbones. Lead Starmie that I believe ABR popularized makes clasico/pixieTSS sweat.

Some personal mentions

Claydol - I find Rock Slide very useful on offensive teams where sometimes spinning is just wasting momentum but you're hard pressed for Zapdos checks. "What if you face Spikes Aero Gar"? Well, most Aerodactyl are CB-locked, so you mostly need to worry about the next fastest sweeper before that (Offmie/Raikou/Jolteon). Those used not to appear too frequently but now have a lot of traction and require alternative solutions.
CBdol, another set I like, is also very useful on teams that are CMRachi/DDTar weak. The key is that you're not sending dol in early game except to pivot, where you're not revealing CB. By the time dol is useful, it's late game, and a strong EQ/Boom is more useful than than spin, or you can spin very predictably knowing how the endgame is going to look like.

Swampert - Pointing out a set from one of my teams, El Cloysico, defensive Pert with Surf/Ice/EQ/Refresh (or Roar over Ice), with enough speed creep for Blissey. This set came from wanting Pert to make progress vs Skarm like RefPert but not wanting to do 6% with Toxic to Blissey while it heals for 50%. This feigns MonoPert and can surprise Blissey with nasty EQs. You only need to surprise Blissey once with EQ - then it needs to heal several times to regain its HP, which is your chance to crit it. If the team is relatively fast paced like El Cloysico, dropping Protect is fine.

Metagross - I think Metagross (CB/Agility) is super good when everyone is using MonoWaters, Mence+Steel/Dol cores, and weak Swamperts.

Snorlax - When used with your favorite new-age additional special check Raikou/Registeel, Counter Snorlax trades incredibly well risk-free.

Cloyster - Two ways to use it.
1) It becomes threatening once Skarm is damaged. Otherwise, weaker than Skarm as a Spiker. Thus target Skarm first (like El Cloysico)
2) Lead Cloyster

Final ranked list, willing to explain on request

Tyranitar
Skarmory
Blissey
Metagross
Swampert
Dugtrio
Gengar
Zapdos
Suicune
Celebi
Snorlax
Claydol
Salamence
Aerodactyl
Jirachi
Starmie
Forretress
Jolteon
Raikou
Registeel
Milotic
Flygon
Charizard
Medicham
Gyarados
Magneton
Moltres
Cloyster
Vaporeon
Heracross
Armaldo
Regirock
Breloom
Misdreavus
Regice
Jynx
Smeargle
Hariyama

 

[Genexys]

First VR :D

(Everything B-tier and above would be my OU cutoff)

Some quick thoughts

-Taunt Gengar is really broken right now in my opinion. Its insane at breaking fat teams as they often rely too much on claydol to trade with it (especially with monobliss teams being pretty popular these days) and is otherwise great into most teams. I also believe Gengar spikes is still the best archetype in the meta. As for OffGar, I still think its great on Dugtrio offense even though players' opinions of it have gone down recently.

-Flygon's speed is a really underrated trait for a rock resist, even on defensive sets where outrunning meta/ttar can make a huge difference.

-Vaporeon is very good at enabling breakers like Hera or Metagross on offense with subpass and can do well on stall teams, where it can pass wishes and sometimes take a hit and BP to dug to trap someone like Metagross (Its high special attack also allows it to always 2hko bulky tar unlike milo/cune).

-Cloyster is pretty great, it's often tough for it to keep spikes up though which is why I like it on teams that dont need the spike as much in some matchups (for example, on special offense you'll want the spike vs, say, a metagross team while vs v5 you would much rather blow up the blissey and trap it). On those teams being able to boom early when the opponent expects a spike is a nice advantage.

-I don't have anything special to say about Regice except that it's pretty great.

(Also, I didn't bother to add most niche mons in here but I will in my submission, piloswine WILL be ranked.)

 

[YubelVT]

ADV Hot take of the day: if you're getting into an endgame position where it's likely going to be decided by an aerodactyl speed tie, regardless of whatever walls each of you have left, just let the speed tie decide it and have the game end like 15 turns earlier. If both of you are playing well, it's gonna come down to that speed tie anyway so just let it happen. This is specifically for endgames, which I know is nebulous and a vague concept, but can generally be agreed upon during games themselves. The amount of games where my opponent does almost anything they can to avoid an aerodactyl speed tie deciding the game only for that to be the deciding factor anyway is too many. I already hate aerodactyl because of how often this speed tie is game determinative, let's just end the game 15 turns early instead of playing out a formality.