But just to change topics before someone brings up luxuray..
I think STAB should be removed from the games.
I think STAB should be removed from the games.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
for any VGC knowers was Cress very strong in Gen 4-6 VGC because I don't know if it being Psychic/Fairy would've made it broken or not
I think another issue regarding Psychic's capabilities stems from its intended offensive role: generally speaking, Psychic types are meant to be the trapmasters of Pokemon. You look through the pool of Psychic moves, a lot of their best tools are built around set-ups. Moves like Psyshock, Psychic Noise and Future Sight are specifically designed to disrupt enemy options and bypass potential answers in ways nothing else can (barring some signature moves). You also see this is in a lot of the type's status moves, as Psychic puts a particular emphasis on sacrificing turns to make your allies more threatening. Unfortunately, this emphasis means that Psychic types nowadays are innately harder to use than most other types.
When you give people the choice between high execution set-ups or a powerhouse that can just blow through the opponent, most people will naturally gravitate towards the latter. The easier a Pokemon is to use, the easier it is to get optimal usage out of it. It also doesn't help that Psychic is lacking certain traits to make optimal use of this strategy. Compare it to Dark, the other type that leans a lot into this style of gameplay: Dark has a better defensive profile overall and its offensive tools are more immediately threatening (meaning you don't have to rely on getting a 1-2 punch as much).
Psychic Terrain + Expanding Force is the one obvious exception, granting VGC Psychics an option for ungabunga offense. But while it’s good for Psychic to have this option, I would be disappointed if Psychic leans more in this direction. Normal and Dragon already fill the roll of “brute force offense” since they need high power options to make up for not scoring SE hits; pushing Psychic into this role would diminish the type’s identity. Paradoxically, I fear stuff like EForce and Calyrex might actually hurt Psychic as a whole by being good enough that Game Freak doesn’t think the type needs any buffs.
When you give people the choice between high execution set-ups or a powerhouse that can just blow through the opponent, most people will naturally gravitate towards the latter. The easier a Pokemon is to use, the easier it is to get optimal usage out of it. It also doesn't help that Psychic is lacking certain traits to make optimal use of this strategy. Compare it to Dark, the other type that leans a lot into this style of gameplay: Dark has a better defensive profile overall and its offensive tools are more immediately threatening (meaning you don't have to rely on getting a 1-2 punch as much).
Psychic Terrain + Expanding Force is the one obvious exception, granting VGC Psychics an option for ungabunga offense. But while it’s good for Psychic to have this option, I would be disappointed if Psychic leans more in this direction. Normal and Dragon already fill the roll of “brute force offense” since they need high power options to make up for not scoring SE hits; pushing Psychic into this role would diminish the type’s identity. Paradoxically, I fear stuff like EForce and Calyrex might actually hurt Psychic as a whole by being good enough that Game Freak doesn’t think the type needs any buffs.
Imo, the only types in need of a buff are Ice and Bug. Psychic may be on par with them as a type, but Psychic Pokemon are just so much better than Bug and Ice Pokemon. Look at OU, UU, RU, and probably the rest of the usage based tiers and you'll see that Psychic has a respectable presence, where Bug and Ice usually don't. It just doesn't really matter that Psychic is a weak type for Smogon tiers. And in game it doesn't really matter either.
Why?
I mean, the flaws with Ice and Bug mostly come from how Gamefreak like to build them rather than an inherent issue with the types themselves. Whenever they actually build Ice types like they do other offensive types like Fire and Electric (at least decently fast and strong in one attack stat) they're generally good, the problem is that they like building Ice types as slow, "bulky", mixed attackers or sometimes as just worse Rock types.
Bugs are more hampered by the fact that 90% of them are made deliberately bad on purpose, and any Bugs lucky enough to not get saddled with a BST lower than a mid-stage starter tends to do pretty well in competitive, at least in their original gen.
yea actually now that you mention it that is backwards isnt it. hm.
I think the bug discussion on here is very fair. There are good bugs, but they'd all benefit from NOT being bugs lol. However I would say there is at least one other significant bug attack-bug buzz.
Sub can be annoying, esp with leech seed(looking at 4x bug weak wo chien.) ofc that can tera(ugh,) and there are non weak leeches sometimes like whim and steela, but it's a reasonable move imo.
Edit: love frosmoth, but the type no bueno. Ice is in with bug for issues. I do like ice for sheer cold immunity. In some ways, depending on meta ofc, that's worth more than all bug gets. Yeah bad defensive type, but you're better off eating a big hit than an instant ohko risk with some bulky ices.
Cress was one of the best Trick Room setters in the game, if not the best. It's the C in CHALK.
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I think it's both, and the fact that the types suck limits GF's design space. Ice really only has one good archetype and Bug, like Psychic, requires that the Pokemon be above average in terms of stats/movepool/etc. in order to perform well. The difference between Bug and Psychic, as you say, is that Bugs are designed to be weak. Make more Bugs like they make Psychics and the problem goes away. The same can't really be said for Ice though, because it's essentially limited to a glass cannon role. Buffing the types would be the most effective way to give them more of a presence.
Side note, if they buff Bug and Ice, Grass would absolutely need a buff too, since it's already borderline and is weak to both of those types.
Its hard to explain but Stab feels like more of a hinderance then a benefit since because of how good a 50% atk buff is just for being the same type as the attack, it limits a pokemons options for what they can do in battle or how well they can do their job. (Thats not even mentioning how it gives dual types a general advantage.)
Removing STAB does literally nothing to address this. A system without STAB would put more emphasis on the defensive aspects of a Pokémon's typing, and the best defensive Pokémon are either dual-typed or fat pink blobs.
I think the reason Bug might not have been buffed and is considered one of the worst types (if not the worst) is that maybe it isn't so popular that GF would care about it. I believe they have earned the reputation of being the early-mon that you would always ditch after the warm-up, and unless there has been a major voice about it, it might not change.
For example, Thundurus (Incarnate) form in VGC was a menace, as its Prankster ability gave it the opportunity to spam Thunder Wave + Swagger against its opponents in Gen 5 (didn't help that electric mons were not immune to Paralysis), and that Thundurus was fast and strong. It wouldn't be a coincidence that GF nerfed him by reducing the accuracy to 90%, paralysis speed drop was halved, and Dark Types were immune to status moves set by Prankster. Or how in Gen 5, dragons were a problem since they were too powerful via Outrage + Draco Meteor, and that it had super effective coverage to deal with the frail ice types or passive steel types. That's why GF also dropped the Fairy types to combat the overwhelming fairies. Not saying the changes were perfect: Thundurus' viability in VGC dropped, and that Fairy types may be too powerful (i.e, Xerneas), but the point is to show how Pokémon can be buffed/nerfed if it becomes a problem.
And that's where the problems with bugs are, because I believe they aren't that popular:
Compared to other weak types like Rock and Poison, they get buffed (at least in theory), as the former gets a special defense boost in Sandstorm, whereas the latter are one of the few types that can resist Fairy attacks, get a near-exclusive move in Toxic (and never miss), and absorb Toxic Spikes.
I think if GF wants to buff bug Pokémon, the casual fandom (not competitive, sadly) would need to care about them more. They don't necessarily have to be as popular as Lucario, Charizard, or Mewtwo, but at least popular enough that GF could buff them.
For example, Thundurus (Incarnate) form in VGC was a menace, as its Prankster ability gave it the opportunity to spam Thunder Wave + Swagger against its opponents in Gen 5 (didn't help that electric mons were not immune to Paralysis), and that Thundurus was fast and strong. It wouldn't be a coincidence that GF nerfed him by reducing the accuracy to 90%, paralysis speed drop was halved, and Dark Types were immune to status moves set by Prankster. Or how in Gen 5, dragons were a problem since they were too powerful via Outrage + Draco Meteor, and that it had super effective coverage to deal with the frail ice types or passive steel types. That's why GF also dropped the Fairy types to combat the overwhelming fairies. Not saying the changes were perfect: Thundurus' viability in VGC dropped, and that Fairy types may be too powerful (i.e, Xerneas), but the point is to show how Pokémon can be buffed/nerfed if it becomes a problem.
And that's where the problems with bugs are, because I believe they aren't that popular:
- Pinsir and Scyther - Cool-looking single-stage bugs in Gen 1, but unfortunately, they don't even get a Bug-type move.
- Scizor - One of the most unique Pokémon due to its Steel/Bug typing, but I feel it's more remembered for being a Steel type due to how new the type was and Bullet Punch.
- Heracross - Perhaps not as popular, but it's known for its friendly nature and is a counterpart to Pinsir.
- Ledian - Is a joke
- Shedinja - At least it's unique for its ability - Wonder Guard?
- Volcarona - The Ace Pokémon of Alder, the Unova Champion. However, it might be known more for its fire type, due to how its Pokedex mentions its closeness to the Sun.
- Golisopod - Definitely a popular bug type thanks to ya boi Guzma
Compared to other weak types like Rock and Poison, they get buffed (at least in theory), as the former gets a special defense boost in Sandstorm, whereas the latter are one of the few types that can resist Fairy attacks, get a near-exclusive move in Toxic (and never miss), and absorb Toxic Spikes.
I think if GF wants to buff bug Pokémon, the casual fandom (not competitive, sadly) would need to care about them more. They don't necessarily have to be as popular as Lucario, Charizard, or Mewtwo, but at least popular enough that GF could buff them.
Ice not resisting Flying and Ground is bullshit. Not resisting Dragon even more bullshit. Just having the boon to resist Ground and Dragon would be amazing. Though I can see it harming Flying in practice...
Honestly Flying is in a rough position. Grass and Bug aren't offensive powerhouses to worry about Defensively, and Electric/Rock are common enough to where Flying defensively isn't that good
Honestly Flying is in a rough position. Grass and Bug aren't offensive powerhouses to worry about Defensively, and Electric/Rock are common enough to where Flying defensively isn't that good
I kind of like that Flying is weighted enough towards offense that it can simultaneously be a great help to some mons while also being a needed limitation of others based on movepool differences. If anything, it's a little disappointing that the gimmick mechanics often just end up giving Landorus/Salamence/Gyarados/etc. better Flying STAB.
Types don't automatically resist whatever they're super effective on. Why would Ice resist Ground or Flying from a thematic standpoint?
I think Ice should gain resistances to Water, Fairy, and maybe Dragon. Water resists Ice, presumably because water's high thermal mass makes it highly resistant to temperature changes. Do you know what other material has this property? Water, when it's frozen. I think the resistance should be made mutual. Fairy and Dragon don't need strong flavor justifications (they don't for a lot of their type matchups), but the former would be a pretty significant buff for Ice at the expense of another top 3 type and the latter is an option if the first two buffs aren't enough. I think a flavor argument could be made for a Bug resist, but Bug doesn't need the hit, or an Electric resist, but I'd only consider that if the first three didn't pan out.
Ice should resist Electric if anything. It makes for a very poor conductor irl.
some people just want to watch the world burn it seems
Have you ever run an ice cube under water? Even when it's not boiling hot it still wears it down almost instantly.*
Ice's lack of resists probably arises from the perception of ice being a substance that's brittle and easy to shatter. I do think it's odd that Ice doesn't resist Dragon, though, when it's stated that Dragons abhor cold temperatures - interestingly this is only something that started being emphasised as a trait around the time of BW, with Druddigon's dex entries noting that it absorbs sunlight and needs to be warm to be active and Iris having a weird phobia of Ice Pokemon and cold things in the anime. Ice resisting Dragon would have been an interesting alternate route to take instead of introducing Fairy, as it would have actually given the plethora of bulky Ice-types something of a niche - but it ultimately probably wouldn't have been enough to nerf Dragon completely hence the introduction of Fairy instead.
*your choice of username makes all of this feel quite ironic
My toxic trait is thinking Ice-Types shouldn’t be buffed in the type chart and that doing so would only make the rich richer, so to speak. On one hand you’ve got the super fast and strong Ice-Types like Weavile, Iron Bundle, Chien-Pao, etc. who are “balanced out” by their poor defensive profile and giving them extra resistances might have negative effects on the metagame; on the other hand you have the myriad of bulky Ice-Types who are designed as such with Ice’s poor defensive properties in mind and giving those extra resistances would make them noticeably more difficult to defeat than they were designed to while retaining Ice’s decent offensive matchups.
Such is the issue with buffing and nerfing Types nowadays. Power creep has gotten to the point where even the worst Types have multiple strong Pokémon and moves available, and the extra utility with typings often overshadows their unweighted matchups- for example, Flying seems like it would have been nerfed in Gen 2 thanks to gaining a new resist in Steel, but the benefit of being immune to Spikes almost always makes up for that, specifically pre-Stealth Rock. If those Flying-Types had the Spikes immunity and didn’t have to worry about Steel- oh, hi, Magnet Pull Magneton!- they would be even more widespread.
Such is the issue with buffing and nerfing Types nowadays. Power creep has gotten to the point where even the worst Types have multiple strong Pokémon and moves available, and the extra utility with typings often overshadows their unweighted matchups- for example, Flying seems like it would have been nerfed in Gen 2 thanks to gaining a new resist in Steel, but the benefit of being immune to Spikes almost always makes up for that, specifically pre-Stealth Rock. If those Flying-Types had the Spikes immunity and didn’t have to worry about Steel- oh, hi, Magnet Pull Magneton!- they would be even more widespread.
Only 30% of the time, though
See I'd understand this idea if they didn't continue to make big "sturdy" or fat Ice types that are supposed to LOOK bulky as much as be so in their stat line like Glalie, Regice (these things don't look fragile despite their Phys Def in practice), Walrein, Avalugg, Cloyster, and Abomasnow.
If this is their mentality, they suck at designing Pokemon for it because of the bulky ones. If this is NOT their mentality, they suck at designing for what they intend instead because the offensive ones fit that image better and are still half the Ices.
Eh, type identity =/= individual Pokemon designs. I'm fairly sure there are several Fire Pokemon who have Pokedex entries detailing how the flames on their bodies burn at a tempature hot enough that any water would evaporate well before it touched them and yet they're still weak to Water.
In the case of Ice, as Bdt mentioned, the continued "bulky glacier" archetype is one that exists likely because it's a contradiction: Ice is a crap defensive type, yet we still keep getting defensive Ice-types.
And I'm not even sure there are that many genuinely offensively-inclined Ice-types, because a truly optimised one would be staggeringly good. Generally speaking, the ones with superb offensive stats tend to be slow, like Mamoswine or Frosmoth or Crabominable or Baxcalibur. Glaceon, for instance, can't fully get away from its essential nature as an Ice-type because it has immense Special Attack AND physical Defence. Even Weavile, which is just about the most optimised non-legendary Ice-type sweeper, isn't as good as it could be due to having largely rubbish abilities (and it also doesn't learn a lot of really powerful attacks - hey, there's the downside of being part-Dark). Imagine Weavile with Sharpness or Tough Claws as its ability and a few more physical moves with over 100 base power. Or imagine Crabominable with base 110 speed.