OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[Leader of the Rockets]

The specials team... ugh. The fact that many players who use this team do desperate things like put double edge on exeggutor is evidence of the inadequacies of this team.

Just to think out loud, everyone who has used this team understands what I mean. It's like a duct tape solution to the fact that the team lacks physical prowess. It has made me realize something: every time you want to put double edge on Exeggutor, you should probably be asking yourself, "What changes can I make to this team so I don't have to do this?" Double edge on Exeggutor is dumb, and it's always there for a reason you should have fixed. If you want to be wrong, at least put hyper beam. When I topped the ladder last year with Starmie/Chansey/Egg/Snorlax/Tauros/Clefable I used hyper beam on Exeggutor. And yeah, catching Jynx and Alakazam slipping is fun. But even then, c'mon, it's gimmicky. Fun, but gimmicky. Stun spore Mega drain Rest Double Edge Hyper Beam

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Alakazam is way to passive of a lead, it at least accomplishes a few things though, it is able to be a sleep blocker, and it can thunderwave, and it can chase Gengar away....the problem is, it loses you momentum often, and it's easy to exploit Alakazam because of how many things block it, I usually think it can be beaten often by just straight running opp Alakazam out of all of their pp.
It has me asking, how when you take sleep, how it happened? Alakazam invites in most of every sleep you can find......
| 4 | Chansey | 70.11338%
| Sing 26.149%
| 5 | Exeggutor | 69.52545%
Sleep Powder 93.284%
| 7 | Jynx | 26.97140%
Lovely Kiss 99.732%
| 10 | Gengar | 19.70560%
Hypnosis 97.863%
| 16 | Lapras | 3.81146%
Sing 74.183%
| 20 | Victreebel | 1.17970%
Sleep Powder 93.083%
| 21 | Venusaur | 1.02542%
Sleep Powder 71.328%

So here above we have our usage rates for things used above 1% that can sleep something, and their corresponding sleep moves frequency of usage.
Now we will evaluate each one and see if Alakazam is inviting them in or not.
#1. Yes. Does Alakazam invite in Chansey?
So a number percentage of 26% of 70% is added to "I'll start from behind".
#2. Yes. Does Alakazam invite in Exeggutor?
So a number percentage of 93% of 69% is added to "I'll start from behind".
#3. Yes. Does Alakazam invite in Jynx? So a number percentage of 99% of 26% is added to "I'll start from behind".
#4. No. Does Alakazam invite in Gengar? This is where Alakazam has a momentum advantage is this turn 0 spot, where they can gain an advantage, but instead what happens is Gengar will switch and as for Alakazam; they psychic an exeggutor or Chansey, and lose momentum often instead....it should be the case that Alakazam has the advantage enough to say it takes the lions share of Gengars 19% usage rate, but it will just chase Gengar away instead in practice.
#5. No. Does Alakazam invite any of Lapras, Victreebell, or Venusaur?
For the total sum of the last 3 sleepers combined to 6% usage rate in total. Alakazam mostly chases this away and plays counter play to this stuff very well, but this is by far less important because all 3 of this combined is 6% usage.

Leading Alakazam is like saying I want to start from being asleep first frequently, and then catch up later ...

Edit:
(Rounded %'s)
26% of 70 is 18%
93% of 69 is 64%
99% of 26 is 26%
=108%
In knowing Alakazam is easy to exploit, and that if leading with it, how do I counter that I will be facing a possible 108% of mons that counter me with sleep moves for turn 1. Its too big of an undertaking to say out swapping them can make back the difference, for how often I have to be right would be infeasible.

Actually, come to think of it isn't infeasible to out swap them, but it would be like saying in order to lead Alakazam properly would be to use it as a false lead, where you nearly always like 100% be swapping to Jynx turn 0 unless your facing sleep already anyways. It still has me saying it's passive though. But back Jynx isn't common...that's the only good advantage I can see though.

People are gonna be mad at you for using the numbers again :')

 

[Believer of GXE]

People are gonna be mad at you for using the numbers again :')

Idk why... the stupid argument that it's "more complex than that" is infinity. I simplify things and get high tier SPL level relative GXE's.

Idk how to say Alakazam is good to lead with though, it isn't so I'll make my point. Back Alakazam can be good though, I guess. Back Zam is B-Tier and lead Alakazam is like C-Tier imo.

Edit: to further clarify why those numbers are those numbers are what I would personally concern myself with on turn 0 while if choosing to see if Alakazam is a viable lead. My concern is my opponent will get sleep off first, or I'll be making a mistake by paralyzing their Chansey, and blocking myself from getting sleep. But the thing is, opps using Chansey and Exeggutor are every single match, the math of using t-wave and hitting the range of those 2 isn't that favorable for Zam, if I psychic instead, that's nearly the same thing. How do I impose anything on the range of Chansey and Exeggutor specifically if I'm leading with Alakazam? I think the range of those 2 existing is blocking Alakazam from being viable from leading.

 

[bdt2002]

Similar in structure to what I’ve referred to as the Big 5 Leads of ADV OU before (Skarmory, Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, and Zapdos), I do believe there to be a pretty set-in-stone top tier of leads in RBY OU. It seems to me like what some of you have been discussing is how you’d order these leads in terms of viability. I for one would be all for RBY organizing a separate VR just for leads alongside the main VR the whole metagame, but for now I want to just focus on highlighting the groundwork for a Big 6 or Big 7 (don’t even think about it, I know what you’re getting ready to type) Leads of RBY OU and what that might look like.

At the top of my personal lead rankings you have Starmie and Alakazam, both of which sometimes combine for over 50% of weighted lead usage on the ladder and have more than enough tournament results to prove their excellence. If I had to pick which one I think is better as a lead, it’s really close between the two but currently I’m leaning towards Team Starmie though I have gone back and forth plenty of times. The value of a Turn 1 Thunder Wave combined with high Speed and Psychic typing is invaluable, but the one thing that does worry me about these leads is that I have had plenty of games where the opponent’s Chansey is able to come in a little too easily and absorb paralysis for the sake of preventing it from falling asleep or becoming frozen. Lead Zapdos can also be trouble occasionally if you’re not running Rhydon, but you make up for this with favorable matchups against Gengar and Jynx leads and more even matchups against Exeggutor and Jolteon leads depending on each Pokémon’s set.

Gengar, Jynx, Chansey, and the Electrics make up my second tier, and recently I’ve started discovering Exeggutor to also be viable in the lead slot though I don’t see this as much on ladder as the others. Their matchups with each other are can be more varied and it’s here where we start to see the battle between Paralysis leads and Sleep leads. Shoutouts to Exeggutor who can use both and also Explosion, by the way. Gengar and Jynx are the fastest viable sleepers in the tier and similar to my Top 2, I often go back and forth between them a lot. Both hate being paralyzed and Gengar can outspeed Jynx in a head-to-head so I want to lean Gengar here, but Jynx also has Ice/Psychic typing and the more accurate sleep move of the two. That, and you managed to convince me Jynx is, in fact, not a fraudulent Pokémon in this tier like I thought for years. On the other side of the spectrum, Chansey can often appreciate being paralyzed but is much slower and hates being put to sleep. Chansey has access to both Sing and Thunder Wave and matches up the best into the Top 2, but can struggle with the mid-tier leads. Finally, the Electrics, who have the fastest Thunder Wave in Jolteon and Agility Zapdos as well, and Zapdos also has mixed attacking STAB which is nice, but both can struggle with Chansey, are worse sleep absorbers than the fast Psychic-Types and have the added disadvantage of inviting in Rhydon early. I like Zapdos over Jolteon here. How would you guys rank these seven Pokémon (plus Exeggutor)?

 

[Amaranth]

Just to think out loud, everyone who has used this team understands what I mean. It's like a duct tape solution to the fact that the team lacks physical prowess. It has made me realize something: every time you want to put double edge on Exeggutor, you should probably be asking yourself, "What changes can I make to this team so I don't have to do this?" Double edge on Exeggutor is dumb, and it's always there for a reason you should have fixed. If you want to be wrong, at least put hyper beam. When I topped the ladder last year with Starmie/Chansey/Egg/Snorlax/Tauros/Clefable I used hyper beam on Exeggutor. And yeah, catching Jynx and Alakazam slipping is fun. But even then, c'mon, it's gimmicky. Fun, but gimmicky. Stun spore Mega drain Rest Double Edge Hyper Beam

I think this is one of your worst takes yet, normal move Exeggutor is THE Jynx killer. Nothing owns the Jynx match up like a sudden Double-Edge. Of course it's an expensive concession to make, but the idea that normal move egg is "replaceable" is really off to me - it's very uniquely good at pushing sleep past a Jynx trying to accept the Sleep Powder from you, and that's gamebreaking vs. structures like the classic Jynx Mie Don.
Hyper Beam is a bit more flexible, can also help you snipe a Chansey with psydrops/fps for example, but the real point of these moves is the Jynx match up above all

 

[dangerk1d]

Regarding zam lead: most of the time I'd rather have mie, but I think if you have double sleep with exeggutor + sing chansey, it makes twave a lot more tenable because you can target the paralyzed pokemon with egg boom later as they try to block sleep. If you're expecting certain matchups, simplifying the gamestate so early can really magnify your advantage (although it can of course backfire as well)

It's also nice because you get the early offensive potential of a para on chansey. If chansey sings mie lead, chansey is incentivized to catch your incoming sleeper with wave because it's going to be slept anyway. But if it's already paralyzed and taken some big hits from zam, it's more likely to heal, which gives lax a more aggressive start. That wouldn't be worth sleep blocking yourself most of the time, but egg gives you an out to remove chansey later on so you can sleep something else. It's a very aggressive and straightforward approach that I think has it's place.

(I know people also like t1 wave with chanseyless stuff because you can maintain pressure on parad chansey, but I've personally felt giving up the sleep game wasn't worth it. Perhaps a skill issue on my part)

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

I think this is one of your worst takes yet, normal move Exeggutor is THE Jynx killer. Nothing owns the Jynx match up like a sudden Double-Edge. Of course it's an expensive concession to make, but the idea that normal move egg is "replaceable" is really off to me - it's very uniquely good at pushing sleep past a Jynx trying to accept the Sleep Powder from you, and that's gamebreaking vs. structures like the classic Jynx Mie Don.
Hyper Beam is a bit more flexible, can also help you snipe a Chansey with psydrops/fps for example, but the real point of these moves is the Jynx match up above all

"Sudden" double edge. You're relying on them being ignorant. That's why I called it gimmicky. The lack of stun spore on Egg is consequential. You really have to think about that tradeoff. And if I know you have hyper beam over stun spore, or I suspect you might, that's not hard to play around. It's usefulness seems to only come from people lazily assuming you don't have it. And the opponent doesn't even pay much of a price for suspecting you have it and playing cautiously. If there was a high price to pay for playing around it, then the conversation would be different, but there really isn't. Just as a thought experiment, if we all got to see a preview of the opponent's team and moveset before every game, would anyone still use normal move exeggutor? I'm not gonna argue with you that it works against many people. I've used it with a lot of success. My lack of respect for it comes more from people trying to use it on me, and me just never biting, and maybe that is because I used it so much myself.

......The last time I used Jynx mie don (Or Jynx mie Golem) was when I solo'd the Cholaski team on the ladder as Chonasty, and I've been trying to play an opening in my head in which this would work on me and I just don't think you'd get me often with it... I can't imagine this working on me with any regularity.

 

[Believer of GXE]

I did a test years ago to see how important the lead spot is. So what I did was start by leading with metapod, and couldn't break 1500 ELO.
I can break 1500 ELO by having a back Weezing with no Tauros though.

Edit: so why the lead spot is so important is because of small differences that compound over time.
If sleep can be gotten off first, I can work on freezing and critting first before they can, which sometimes happens, freezing is obviously great, and critting leads to mid-game spots for plans often. If I lead with Alakazam I can't accomplish any of this, but it's still way better than metapod because it accomplishes secondary objectives. Such as: blocking sleep, Alakazam is the best thing to take sleep in the game, so it has an okay chance at waking up, it can also outspeed things and paralyze things, all in all it should be in the back if your going to use it. Starmie although better than Alakazam as a lead I feel also is better in the back. Starmie can at least pressure Exeggutor away, and bluff Gengar from coming in. And also freeze possibilities. Starmie is usually more useful to have.

My actual opinion about leading is like it should be only Gengar and Jynx....with some caveats to that.

And then the only true sleep blocking in the game should be to paralyze your own Chansey, because the only other way to block sleep is through irony, where I block sleep by letting myself take sleep. Letting something else take paralyze early game to block instead also isn't good.

I think if the game were solved it would be something like, people only lead with Jynx and Gar, and always block thunderwave if possible with Chansey. Modern day usage rates have it being hard to overcome that simple strategy.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

"Sudden" double edge. You're relying on them being ignorant. That's why I called it gimmicky. The lack of stun spore on Egg is consequential. You really have to think about that tradeoff. And if I know you have hyper beam over stun spore, or I suspect you might, that's not hard to play around. It's usefulness seems to only come from people lazily assuming you don't have it. And the opponent doesn't even pay much of a price for suspecting you have it and playing cautiously. If there was a high price to pay for playing around it, then the conversation would be different, but there really isn't. Just as a thought experiment, if we all got to see a preview of the opponent's team and moveset before every game, would anyone still use normal move exeggutor? I'm not gonna argue with you that it works against many people. I've used it with a lot of success. My lack of respect for it comes more from people trying to use it on me, and me just never biting, and maybe that is because I used it so much myself.

......The last time I used Jynx mie don (Or Jynx mie Golem) was when I solo'd the Cholaski team on the ladder as Chonasty, and I've been trying to play an opening in my head in which this would work on me and I just don't think you'd get me often with it... I can't imagine this working on me with any regularity.

Just wanna add, I'm genuinely surprised at the love for normal move Exeggutor. I didn't even know he had a fan club. I thought the only person who actually thought it was good was GGFan https://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/ggfans-2013-ladder-team.3103/.
Here he says: "What separates my Exeggutor from the others, however, is Hyper Beam as the 4th move. I have picked off many, many paralyzed Jynx and wounded Chanseys with it, ostensibly because of its raw power, but moreso because nobody would see it coming unless they've played me before. And if I felt that they might try and predict it, I could simply act accordingly by using Psychic instead. I love Hyper Beam so much that I'll never go back to Mega Drain and Stun Spore."

And again, he says here, "...because nobody would see it coming..." Moves that work mostly for this reason, I categorize as gimmicky.

 

[Believer of GXE]

And again, he says here, "...because nobody would see it coming..." Moves that work mostly for this reason, I categorize as gimmicky.

So, if I were to use exeggutor, I...wouldn't but, I think hyper beam is good on it, because what is naturally going to block exeggutor? Starmie, Chansey and Alakazam, and other Exeggutors are the most common things that will block exeggutor. 2 or 3 of the 4; hyper beam does quite a lot to. If they are already switching in to block psychic, that's like +17% dmg for the psychic...if they already had chip damage to begin with, that puts them close to hyper beam range, it's hard to exploit psychic+hyper beam+explosion as a range. Hyper beam egg has a chance at taking out Chansey or Alakazam by surprise, which it's only at the cost of its 4th slot. Especially Chansey is useful to take out, but once the cat is out of the bag, the hyper beam is certainly more lackluster, so I see your point that it's easy to play around once it's known, which leads to exeggutor using explosion. from a psychological perspective because hyper beam was a "secret" now that it's exposed, explosion comes quickly.

 

[Amaranth]

And again, he says here, "...because nobody would see it coming..." Moves that work mostly for this reason, I categorize as gimmicky.

It's not about "seeing it coming", every top player knows that normal move Egg exists. It's a matter of opportunity cost playing around it. You say it's effortless to scout it, but is it really? Say that you have a paralyzed Jynx and everything else healthy, your Chansey is clicking Soft-Boiled, Exeggutor comes in. Are you willing to stay and risk Sleep Powder, when you have a safe option instead? Obviously Jynx is the safe move, then ok some of the time you will soulread your opponent and do something else covering Double Edge or double switches, but not often at all (or you will lose to all the times I'm *not* bringing Double-Edge.)

In just this RBYPL:

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 4    | [Exeggutor]             |  715 |  74.48% |  49.23% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Psychic                 |  527 |  73.71% |  49.43% |
| 2    | Sleep Powder            |  397 |  55.52% |  51.64% |
| 3    | Explosion               |  231 |  32.31% |  55.19% |
| 4    | Stun Spore              |  221 |  30.91% |  47.51% |
| 5    | Mega Drain              |   66 |   9.23% |  51.52% |
| 6    | Rest                    |   62 |   8.67% |  46.77% |
| 7    | Hyper Beam              |   44 |   6.15% |  63.64% |
| 8    | Double-Edge             |   10 |   1.40% |  80.00% |
| 9    | Egg Bomb                |    2 |   0.28% |   0.00% |

Why are we playing around these moves with <10% frequency? It's just not worth it risking the game to play around something that just isn't even there most of the time.

I am sure it's different on ladder, we're not playing the exact same metagame. The scouting element is a big deal: if I don't bring any normal move Eggy 90%+ of the time, people are going to see that while researching my games, and they're not going to worsen their odds vs. my teams to cover a move that isn't there. So then it will just hit, even if everyone obviously knows that these moves are theoretically viable.
This is not rare in tournament play, and I think it's part of optimal RBY OU play. There are many moves that are good only because people not only don't play around them, but outright shouldn't play around them, provided they've scouted you correctly. You can do a similar thing with Counter Chansey for example.
This is a fundamental difference of Ladder play vs. Tournament play. For me it's absolutely obvious that these "bad" moves have a place in the metagame, because if I don't bring them at all, then my opponents will have complete safety with their Jynx, and in turn that will give them an advantage when I bring the "good" moves (because they can just play around those, instead of having to play around everything). In ladder, people still have to respect your "bad" moves, even if you never use them, because they don't know you specifically. So you lose way less by never bringing them.

 

[Believer of GXE]

This is a fundamental difference of Ladder play vs. Tournament play. For me it's absolutely obvious that these "bad" moves have a place in the metagame, because if I don't bring them at all, then my opponents will have complete safety with their Jynx, and in turn that will give them an advantage when I bring the "good" moves (because they can just play around those, instead of having to play around everything). In ladder, people still have to respect your "bad" moves, even if you never use them, because they don't know you specifically. So you lose way less by never bringing them.

This is what it should be in theory, that I would need a range of sets for things on my team I thought too, but the games development is still very young, you don't actually need a range of sets for your mons yet to top the ladder. Though, it's understood that for the purpose of not being able to be understood that it a range would be needed, and it's kind of funny I can ascertain that isn't the case, but in more developed games, yes it is.
It's possible to spam single teams without ranges and top the ladder still in 2025.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

It's not about "seeing it coming", every top player knows that normal move Egg exists. It's a matter of opportunity cost playing around it. You say it's effortless to scout it, but is it really? Say that you have a paralyzed Jynx and everything else healthy, your Chansey is clicking Soft-Boiled, Exeggutor comes in. Are you willing to stay and risk Sleep Powder, when you have a safe option instead? Obviously Jynx is the safe move, then ok some of the time you will soulread your opponent and do something else covering Double Edge or double switches, but not often at all (or you will lose to all the times I'm *not* bringing Double-Edge.)

In just this RBYPL:

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 4    | [Exeggutor]             |  715 |  74.48% |  49.23% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Psychic                 |  527 |  73.71% |  49.43% |
| 2    | Sleep Powder            |  397 |  55.52% |  51.64% |
| 3    | Explosion               |  231 |  32.31% |  55.19% |
| 4    | Stun Spore              |  221 |  30.91% |  47.51% |
| 5    | Mega Drain              |   66 |   9.23% |  51.52% |
| 6    | Rest                    |   62 |   8.67% |  46.77% |
| 7    | Hyper Beam              |   44 |   6.15% |  63.64% |
| 8    | Double-Edge             |   10 |   1.40% |  80.00% |
| 9    | Egg Bomb                |    2 |   0.28% |   0.00% |

Why are we playing around these moves with <10% frequency? It's just not worth it risking the game to play around something that just isn't even there most of the time.

I am sure it's different on ladder, we're not playing the exact same metagame. The scouting element is a big deal: if I don't bring any normal move Eggy 90%+ of the time, people are going to see that while researching my games, and they're not going to worsen their odds vs. my teams to cover a move that isn't there. So then it will just hit, even if everyone obviously knows that these moves are theoretically viable.
This is not rare in tournament play, and I think it's part of optimal RBY OU play. There are many moves that are good only because people not only don't play around them, but outright shouldn't play around them, provided they've scouted you correctly. You can do a similar thing with Counter Chansey for example.
This is a fundamental difference of Ladder play vs. Tournament play. For me it's absolutely obvious that these "bad" moves have a place in the metagame, because if I don't bring them at all, then my opponents will have complete safety with their Jynx, and in turn that will give them an advantage when I bring the "good" moves (because they can just play around those, instead of having to play around everything). In ladder, people still have to respect your "bad" moves, even if you never use them, because they don't know you specifically. So you lose way less by never bringing them.

That's such a specific scenario though. You have to hope to para my Jynx and not my Chansey. And then if I'm not even using these pokes, which I often don't, then hyper beam Egg loses even more usefulness. I don't disagee with what you're saying about bringing bad moves. But I just don't think there is anything about double edge or hyper beam that makes them particularly exceptional in the "bad moves" category. I do fundamentally agree with you on the benefits of the element of surprise. The element of surprise will always be useful in pokemon, but... my only point would be, when putting those moves on your team, you should understand that is their value. That this is not the most consistent move. This is not a great move. And if one is under the illusion that, "Oh yeah, this is the primary move that should go here; it's the one that makes the most sense," then one is surely wrong. It goes there only if you think it'll surprise your opponent. Not for any sound structural reason. That was my only point. That double edge and hyper beam are often used not for surprise (GGFan said he'd never using anything else), but to lacklusterly cover for structural weakness in a team, and one would be better served playing a team that didn't have those weaknesses to begin with.

 

[violet river]

That's such a specific scenario though. You have to hope to para my Jynx and not my Chansey. And then if I'm not even using these pokes, which I often don't, then hyper beam Egg loses even more usefulness. I don't disagee with what you're saying about bringing bad moves. But I just don't think there is anything about double edge or hyper beam that makes them particularly exceptional in the "bad moves" category. I do fundamentally agree with you on the benefits of the element of surprise. The element of surprise will always be useful in pokemon, but... my only point would be, when putting those moves on your team, you should understand that is their value. That this is not the most consistent move. This is not a great move. And if one is under the illusion that, "Oh yeah, this is the primary move that should go here; it's the one that makes the most sense," then one is surely wrong. It goes there only if you think it'll surprise your opponent. Not for any sound structural reason. That was my only point. That double edge and hyper beam are often used not for surprise (GGFan said he'd never using anything else), but to lacklusterly cover for structural weakness in a team, and one would be better served playing a team that didn't have those weaknesses to begin with.

I don't think that hyper beam being reliant on the opponent not scouting it is particularly reliant on the element of surprise. It's not like, for example, Mega Drain Gengar, that hardly ever comes into play, and only ever works in ultra niche situations where people unwittingly sacrifice their Rhydon to it. Dedge/Hyper Beam Exeggutor dominates a paralyzed Jynx(Jynx being paralyzed is Extremely Common), and for the Jynx player to scout around it, like Amaranth said, they have to make huge concessions for a move you're likely not to have. I think you can reasonably treat normal moves on Exeggutor as landing versus Jynx the majority of the time, and it's moreso that your opponent scouting it would be indicative of the element of surprise. This is especially true of Hyper Beam - if your Double Edge gets scouted, so what? Sleep powder is still a huge threat, and now there's no Jynx in your face.
Tldr: I agree that moves that have their value tied to surprise factor are bad, and I like consistent value, but I view normal moves on Exeggutor as consistently landing into Jynx, and it's far and away the outlier for Jynx to tactfully evade a Double Edge.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

I don't think that hyper beam being reliant on the opponent not scouting it is particularly reliant on the element of surprise. It's not like, for example, Mega Drain Gengar, that hardly ever comes into play, and only ever works in ultra niche situations where people unwittingly sacrifice their Rhydon to it. Dedge/Hyper Beam Exeggutor dominates a paralyzed Jynx(Jynx being paralyzed is Extremely Common), and for the Jynx player to scout around it, like Amaranth said, they have to make huge concessions for a move you're likely not to have. I think you can reasonably treat normal moves on Exeggutor as landing versus Jynx the majority of the time, and it's moreso that your opponent scouting it would be indicative of the element of surprise. This is especially true of Hyper Beam - if your Double Edge gets scouted, so what? Sleep powder is still a huge threat, and now there's no Jynx in your face.
Tldr: I agree that moves that have their value tied to surprise factor are bad, and I like consistent value, but I view normal moves on Exeggutor as consistently landing into Jynx, and it's far and away the outlier for Jynx to tactfully evade a Double Edge.

This is one darn pokemon. Only one. One which your dirty little plan might not even prevail against. Starmie doesn't care about this crap.

 

[violet river]

This is one darn pokemon. Only one. One which your dirty little plan might not even prevail against. Starmie doesn't care about this crap.

It's just a pretty common pokemon, and it's otherwise quite hard to be good into it. People run Gengar lead almost exclusively for the Jynx matchup, despite starting on the back foot versus a lot of other things, because dissuading Jynx is just so valuable. Giving up the moveslot on your Exeggutor when your team would otherwise be quite awful into Jynx is just what you do when you teambuild, in my opinion.

 

[Believer of GXE]

I think the only true correct opening is Jynx, because, if you value sleep more than paralysis, and idk why you wouldn't, sleep clause is a thing. Gengar as mentioned is countered by the two most common leads starmie, and Alakazam, and Jynx being psychic type means it's very similar to those two. fast fire types that would ordinarily counter Jynx, can't because of Alakazam and Starmie usage rates. Zapdos isn't ahead of Jynx, Jolteon isn't really ahead either because of how much more it's risking by getting status. There's no way to counter Jynx with sleep without being far worse off against the total range of things you would face. Gengar is forced out often, creating a problem with the range of opponents he faces. Jynx always, unless it's being directly countered by a fast fire type, or Gengar explosion, or otherwise niche outliers, Jynx always will get that sleep off. Over long stretches of time, Jynx being ice type means I will get an extra freeze that an opponent would of got against me if I hadn't used an ice type. I think Jynx is S-Tier, but idk how to sway any opinions that hard. Its just because it facilitates the early game with purpose exceptionally well. Jynx does taper off in value as the game goes on usually. Getting sleep off first, means chances at freezing, critting etc. I think the game should start off with an idea, like "I'm getting sleep off first, because I value getting that part done". Then branch off from, if I'm using Jynx, what else should I use?

 

[BW PU AAA TD]

I think the only true correct opening is Jynx, because, if you value sleep more than paralysis, and idk why you wouldn't, sleep clause is a thing. Gengar as mentioned is countered by the two most common leads starmie, and Alakazam, and Jynx being psychic type means it's very similar to those two. fast fire types that would ordinarily counter Jynx, can't because of Alakazam and Starmie usage rates. Zapdos isn't ahead of Jynx, Jolteon isn't really ahead either because of how much more it's risking by getting status. There's no way to counter Jynx with sleep without being far worse off against the total range of things you would face. Gengar is forced out often, creating a problem with the range of opponents he faces. Jynx always, unless it's being directly countered by a fast fire type, or Gengar explosion, or otherwise niche outliers, Jynx always will get that sleep off. Over long stretches of time, Jynx being ice type means I will get an extra freeze that an opponent would of got against me if I hadn't used an ice type. I think Jynx is S-Tier, but idk how to sway any opinions that hard. Its just because it facilitates the early game with purpose exceptionally well. Jynx does taper off in value as the game goes on usually. Getting sleep off first, means chances at freezing, critting etc. I think the game should start off with an idea, like "I'm getting sleep off first, because I value getting that part done". Then branch off from, if I'm using Jynx, what else should I use?

This is fundamentally flawed thinking.

To paraphrase, you said "Everyone should always use jynx because its counter lead is countered by 2 of the most popular leads."
People stop using Starmie and Gengar and Zam and start using Jynx -> People start using Gengar and Tauros to counter Jynx -> People start using alakazam and starmie to counter gengar and Tauros, and just sleep sack into jynx -> People start running electrics to Anti-Lead Starmie. ("->" represents meta shifts.)

We are QUITE LITERALLY right back where we are started, which is NOT using jynx 100% of the time.

Also not to be like that, but all of your posts are based on the fundamental misunderstanding that ladder is the peak of competition, and that anything you pull from there is completely transelateable to tournaments. Newsflash, its not. Some people are low on lead jynx so you use gengar very little against them, some people are low on lead gengar so you load more jynx, some people are high on gengar so you load more alakazam, etc. You cant just make general rules like this and then post it in our thread and not get backlash from it. We HAVE a ladder thread for a reason. And you also have to understand that people wont stop loading gengar regardless of its place in the ladder metagame, as its ladder. It will always exist so jynx will always have to worry about it.

 

[Believer of GXE]

This is fundamentally flawed thinking.


To paraphrase, you said "Everyone should always use jynx because its counter lead is countered by 2 of the most popular leads."
.

That's more like icing on the cake, primarily I believe why people should use Jynx is, that a strong starting objective should be to get your own sleep off, and Jynx is the best mon to do that, based off of usage rates, I didn't say everyone had to use it. I'm just saying I think it's S tier.

 

[BW PU AAA TD]

That's more like icing on the cake, primarily I believe why people should use Jynx is, that a strong starting objective should be to get your own sleep off, and Jynx is the best mon to do that, based off of usage rates, I didn't say everyone had to use it. I'm just saying I think it's S tier.

>I think the only true correct opening is Jynx,

Uh huh.

Anyways yeah it was just me oversimplifying its 1 am i apologize for that.

However this is still just absolute air. THE strongest starting objective is to get your own sleep off, and yes jynx is the best mon at doing that, but its facing 2 dedicated sleep sacks both with their own ways of getting off sleep (Hence T1 chansey and T1 exeggutor vs Twave leads is so popular) that twave her to push sleep past her ASAP, Fast electric types that can cheese jynx easily (If Kiss misses or jynx blizzards zapdos can peck -> beam, or just twave and get slept or lead into peck, can also very rarely 2hko with peck, and jolt can pin missile her down + twave hax, and most likely backing exeggutor), and a demon genetically designed to be both a slot machine AND her worst nightmare while also being a sleeper, as well as an ensamble of other leads that She isnt meant to ever see, barring the Bull that will tear her to shreds (Who, suprise! Also has a gameplan for sleep.)

Mons is also just so much more than early game. Majority of the mons in the game Happen to work good in all 3 stages of the game, early, middle, and late. In most cases it is a MIRACLE jynx isnt serverely hindered by the middle game, let alone late. Her dominance in the starting turns of the game is what earned her a B tier spot, but all the mons above her just do more stuff and sometimes more valuable stuff across the course of a game, as well as other mons being able to take her spot on teams to compensate in places she doesnt.

She being the best sleeper does not inherently make her S tier, it just makes her the best sleeper.

 

[Believer of GXE]

Well, when I'm thinking about it, I consider sleep to be near functionally as useful as something like 85% of a KO. Jynx needs do little more than land an LK and a blizzard to meet it's 1:1 requirement.

Edit: what this means is that if each mon achieved it's 1:1 or more purpose, than you win. So Jynx only needs to achieve an LK and like 2-3 blizzards and it's already there.
(Stacking 9% frz chances)
85%+9%'s....you can adjust what you think the sleep to Ko conversation ratio is and add that you would need to land more blizzards to make the 1:1. Such as if you think getting sleep is only half of a KO, than you would do this:
100%-50%=50% so we need to get LK+
6 blizzards (9% each) on average to meet your personal standard of having Jynx achieve your version of its 1:1.

Edit2: this was under the assumption that frz=KO, but obviously it is less than a KO, because frz, blocks frz. So let's say it's 97% of a KO? Idk.

Tldr; So like, my point is it's easy for Jynx to meet it's quotient of usefulness required to win a match, and that is that it provides at least that it captures the equivalent of 1 mon or more before it goes down. If sleep is between 50-85% of a KO than Jynx needs to land between 2-6 blizzards on non ice or ice move blocking targets to meet it's quotient to win,provided that you know that each blizzard is about 9% to freeze. Jynx is likely to land within this 2-6 range of blizzards on average, so Jynx usually will meet quota, or will be close to quota every game, and it's very easy for anyone to play jynx to be either near 1:1 or above 1:1, with not much skill needed, Jynx is simple.

And this is why I think Jynx is S-Tier, is because anyone can play Jynx and have great results.
***(For what its relative turns were when it was in play)!

The questions you have to ask yourself is: What do you believe getting sleep in the match is worth relative to a KO? And what is freeze worth relative to a KO?
If you believe sleep is worth between 50-85% of a KO, and freeze is 90%+ of a KO, than getting LK+2-6 blizzards is the average that Jynx must do to be a self-sustainable winner of games.
......But, its always easy for jynx to come close to this don't you think? All it takes is clicking LK turn 0 gets most of this, and only needing to do a few more things like, landing a few blizzards or even blocking a few blizzards, blocking sleep, or doing damage,

if Jynx lands sleep and does anything else than it already met quota imo.

.....Actually it's as simple as if Jynx lands sleep, and then blocks sleep by taking the opps sleep ATK.... than....it's already near its 1:1 quota.lol.and if that's all it did, it would be good enough to be self sustainably winning games for its own slots sake. Each slot has to make quota, Jynx can easily.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Well, when I'm thinking about it, I consider sleep to be near functionally as useful as something like 85% of a KO. Jynx needs do little more than land an LK and a blizzard to meet it's 1:1 requirement.

Edit: what this means is that if each mon achieved it's 1:1 or more purpose, than you win. So Jynx only needs to achieve an LK and like 2-3 blizzards and it's already there.
(Stacking 9% frz chances)
85%+9%'s....you can adjust what you think the sleep to Ko conversation ratio is and add that you would need to land more blizzards to make the 1:1. Such as if you think getting sleep is only half of a KO, than you would do this:
100%-50%=50% so we need to get LK+
6 blizzards (9% each) on average to meet your personal standard of having Jynx achieve your version of its 1:1.

Edit2: this was under the assumption that frz=KO, but obviously it is less than a KO, because frz, blocks frz. So let's say it's 97% of a KO? Idk.

Tldr; So like, my point is it's easy for Jynx to meet it's quotient of usefulness required to win a match, and that is that it provides at least that it captures the equivalent of 1 mon or more before it goes down. If sleep is between 50-85% of a KO than Jynx needs to land between 2-6 blizzards on non ice or ice move blocking targets to meet it's quotient to win,provided that you know that each blizzard is about 9% to freeze. Jynx is likely to land within this 2-6 range of blizzards on average, so Jynx usually will meet quota, or will be close to quota every game, and it's very easy for anyone to play jynx to be either near 1:1 or above 1:1, with not much skill needed, Jynx is simple.

And this is why I think Jynx is S-Tier, is because anyone can play Jynx and have great results.
***(For what its relative turns were when it was in play)!

The questions you have to ask yourself is: What do you believe getting sleep in the match is worth relative to a KO? And what is freeze worth relative to a KO?
If you believe sleep is worth between 50-85% of a KO, and freeze is 90%+ of a KO, than getting LK+2-6 blizzards is the average that Jynx must do to be a self-sustainable winner of games.
......But, its always easy for jynx to come close to this don't you think? All it takes is clicking LK turn 0 gets most of this, and only needing to do a few more things like, landing a few blizzards or even blocking a few blizzards, blocking sleep, or doing damage,

if Jynx lands sleep and does anything else than it already met quota imo.

.....Actually it's as simple as if Jynx lands sleep, and then blocks sleep by taking sleep, than....it's already near its 1:1 quota.lol.

They’re not any percentage of a ko. 0% of a ko. They are qualitatively different, and different mons have different values when frozen/asleep. For example, frozen gengar can still catch multiple explosions, frozen chansey can’t. I think you should just stop using that framework. The answer is 0%

 

[Believer of GXE]

CC

They’re not any percentage of a ko. 0% of a ko. They are qualitatively different, and different mons have different values when frozen/asleep. For example, frozen gengar can still catch multiple explosions, frozen chansey can’t. I think you should just stop using that framework. The answer is 0%

They can be qualitatively converted to a KO, yes your right that Gengar gets some extra equity,.but it is trivial percentages, like because it's frzn Gengar its 92% of a Ko instead of 97%. These things can absolutely be converted, because I'm just comparing how useful something is.

How useful is freeze relative to a KO?
...are you trying to say this doesn't have an answer?

This is something with an Answer.

Edit: My own personal answer is if I aggregate the sum of all freezes(including Gengar) that the average sum of a freeze is worth over 90% of that of a KO, idk how that's controversial?

Also....there's a thing about catching explosions that frozen Gengars aren't common among that's hard to explain, but opps don't like exploding into ranges that contain frozen Gengars often.

 

[violet river]

They’re not any percentage of a ko. 0% of a ko. They are qualitatively different, and different mons have different values when frozen/asleep. For example, frozen gengar can still catch multiple explosions, frozen chansey can’t. I think you should just stop using that framework. The answer is 0%

It's also important, in my opinion, that just getting a sleep doesn't count as a ko because you could have just got that sleep later. If jynx has to die for the sleep and a blizzard, but an Exeggutor could have sleep powdered and kept a 75% health Exeggutor...is that really a good Jynx?

 

[Believer of GXE]

It's also important, in my opinion, that just getting a sleep doesn't count as a ko because you could have just got that sleep later. If jynx has to die for the sleep and a blizzard, but an Exeggutor could have sleep powdered and kept a 75% health Exeggutor...is that really a good Jynx?

Exeggutor for its own turn 0 relative comparison, already lost way too much equity in the sleep battle vs Jynx and Gengar, and swapping out from starmies.

Wait! Fundamentally this is why (par) Chansey can block sleep early game, and then prevent it from then the entire game, is technically possible. Sleep isn't a KO, but it can be converted to a qualitative relative usefulness quotient.