Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

[BlueCookies]

A strategy that is just as effective is IPL's JollyWobb. If your lead Pokemon is at Skarmory's min speed or lower, you've essentially just lost a Pokemon through being PP stalled out of the first move you use. It can also switch in on any of the moves of Pokemon like Swampert, Hippowdon and Forretress and guarantee a kill.

Both strategies have advantages over the other. For instance Alice's strategy will probably never run out of encore PP as it only has to be used probably only 2-3 times per time you bring Wobb in, while IPL's Wobb can go through 4-6 encores against one Pokemon. However IPL's strategy doesn't require the loss of recovery through sandstorm. I mean you could always used Weavile with Alice's strategy if you prefer, but it's probably not recommended.

Overall both strategies are completely broken (and annoying in the case of IPL's :/)

I actually like this startegy more, because it allows Wobbuffet to outspeed most walls(making it sort of like a wall breaker). He used it against me twice, and it is extremely annoying because of how long it takes, even though I still won. One thing I was wondering was, does this strategy still work on wi-fi, meaning that they are forced to struggle from encore instead of picking another move. Because I remember reading somewhere in his rmt(I think it was Obi who posted this) that this strategy only works in Shoddy and not wifi. Both strategies are good though, and I even got to play against alice's cool strategy, but I just think IPL's is better.

 

[X-Act]

Haha, I didn't even know that Wobbuffet learned Tickle!

 

[Bologo]

Here's the problem. All the moderately intelligent players know that Wobbs is Uber material and doesn't belong in the OU metagame. So instead of using him, none of us put him on our teams. Since he's not on all the teams, a particular idiot who runs a particular program we use to battle refuses to ban him back to Ubers. The "data" supports this singular person's decision to unban him to satisfy his own bloated ego.

So we either ALL do this nonsense to each other for a couple of months and have no fun playing Pokemon or we accept the fact that until a *ahem* competitor arises for this particular program, we're all doomed to suffer through retarded matches against the broken blue blob.

What right do you have to complain? I don't see you making a battling engine. That "idiot" is also the one who took his free time to make the program that you use all the time to battle, and that "idiot" is the one who still takes his time to keep it up to date.

If you want to badmouth that "idiot" because he made a decision (which was made by him and a lot of other people), then just find a new program to battle on, seriously. Just because we're on the internet, it doesn't mean you have the right to be such an asshole to people who are taking actual time out of their lives to allow you to play this game.

There hasn't been any evidence of Wobbuffet being broken, and it's very hard to find any evidence if you refuse to use the thing because you still think it's uber. If you want evidence, use the goddamn thing and make your own evidence.

We know it hasn't been on "all" teams. The problem is that it's on near-BL usage, and generally, if people aren't using something so much, that it reaches that point, then there's obviously very little evidence that it could be broken.


Anyways, my way to beat Wobbuffet is, like other people have said, is to not try to counter Wobbuffet, but just be able to have a good chance against the rest of the opponent's team. Wobbuffet has never once given me trouble, and in fact, it usually gets its ass kicked pretty badly.

Tickle sounds pretty cool on Wobba, and it's actually not a bad idea to use Pursuit with it. It seems like it might be a better idea to do this with a Dugtrio at hand instead of Tyranitar so that the opponent is truly screwed against Pursuit, but that's just me. I got Tickle to be edited into the analysis a few months ago, but I didn't think anyone'd actually find any use for it. :P

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Two of those options become null and void due to Encore, and do you really think all wall should carry those two moves to deal with Wob? Like really? That just not......thats just.....just...stupid.

I mean what walls have U-turn or Batton Pass anyway?

If this is a wall killer only, you're right. Otherwise, no. If this is a wall killer, it needs alot of speed Evs wich means his defenses will suck and sweepers can clear the way and the opponent just traded two pokes (wobbuffet and maybe TTar) for two of your walls, or maybe one wall (you must be an idiot to fall for that again).

 

[Aldaron]

Actually arctic, that isn't entirely true, since many of the individuals you refer to as the "premiere smogon members" disagreed with Colin. But that's another story.

As for Wobbuffet, my personal opinion is that it is uber, simply because of its effect on stall teams. They ALL die terribly to it. Wobbuffet pretty much removes one entire strategy from the game, lol.

My official stance on Wobbuffet, however, is that it should remain in limbo until we have decided upon a definition for Uber.

The "overcentralization" buffs keep screaming that "o we have hard evidence," but they still haven't provided me with either a line for a centralized metagame, or quantitative reasoning behind choosing that line.

Until then...

 

[Mekkah]

Here's the problem. All the moderately intelligent players know that Wobbs is Uber material and doesn't belong in the OU metagame. So instead of using him, none of us put him on our teams. Since he's not on all the teams, a particular idiot who runs a particular program we use to battle refuses to ban him back to Ubers. The "data" supports this singular person's decision to unban him to satisfy his own bloated ego.

So we either ALL do this nonsense to each other for a couple of months and have no fun playing Pokemon or we accept the fact that until a *ahem* competitor arises for this particular program, we're all doomed to suffer through retarded matches against the broken blue blob.

Note that Colin does not play Pokemon. Note that Colin merely wrote and administrates the program, mostly to our benefit. Calling him an idiot is not exactly the way to go here.

The main reason Colin is allowing Wobbuffet for testing is because a few of our non-conversatist people (Jump, Obi and AA) asked him to, or at least brought up the issue. So basically, you're calling several of our staff idiots here.

 

[Stallion]

You see, this is why Wobbufett is uber. I am continuously frustrated on shoddy because Colin bases it on usage rather then how well they are used, and although he is doing his best to make it fair, he hasn't really played pokemon. It overcentralises the metagame to the point where every wall will need a Shed Shell or U-Turn, and that just makes pokemon a whole lot less enjoyable.

 

[the_artic_one]

That's why I said "most", not "all". Although "most" might not be quite accurate either so I'll make a concession and change my wording to "a reasonable number".

 

[Aki]

Here's the problem. All the moderately intelligent players know that Wobbs is Uber material and doesn't belong in the OU metagame. So instead of using him, none of us put him on our teams. Since he's not on all the teams, a particular idiot who runs a particular program we use to battle refuses to ban him back to Ubers. The "data" supports this singular person's decision to unban him to satisfy his own bloated ego.

So we either ALL do this nonsense to each other for a couple of months and have no fun playing Pokemon or we accept the fact that until a *ahem* competitor arises for this particular program, we're all doomed to suffer through retarded matches against the broken blue blob.

So we all hop onto Doug's server where wobb is still Uber =D

 

[Mekkah]

You see, this is why Wobbufett is uber. I am continuously frustrated on shoddy because Colin bases it on usage rather then how well they are used, and although he is doing his best to make it fair, he hasn't really played pokemon. It overcentralises the metagame to the point where every wall will need a Shed Shell or U-Turn, and that just makes pokemon a whole lot less enjoyable.

Colin actually showed that the amount of Leftovers on everything hasn't decreased with the addition of Wobbuffet. Sure, this strategy wasn't promoted back then, but I really doubt the amount will decrease considerably.

 

[RaikouLover]

The strategy is not cheap. It's good strategy. Yes, it's frustrating. But deal with it. Most of the "top" players don't even use wob. Even still, wob is not THAT hard to deal with. You just have to sacrifice something. And then, doesn't it mean anything that they essentially wasted a teamslot to destroy your wall? Have a back up plan. Most well prepared teams have more than one way to at least deal with heracross, chomp, lucario, etc.

Originally Posted by Fat Odinwolf

Here's the problem. All the moderately intelligent players know that Wobbs is Uber material and doesn't belong in the OU metagame. So instead of using him, none of us put him on our teams. Since he's not on all the teams, a particular idiot who runs a particular program we use to battle refuses to ban him back to Ubers.

I believe, the number one user on shoddy, doorman... uses Wob as his lead. Either way, your point is moot. If you and all the "intellegent" players disagree with wob, win with him, then he might have to be banned. If you can't, or just don't, then you really have no argument.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Encore will usually end before 6 Tickles, and then Skarmory can pick another move though depending on your set it might not help. If Skarmory predicts Wobbuffet will use this sort of nonsense, he is better off throwing a Brave Bird out and scoring two free STAB hits before dying to Counter. Nothing gets to set up, and this will more or less take Wobbuffet with him. Skarmory could use Toxic to ruin this as well; it's far less extreme than expecting everything to use HP Grass to be able to deal with a water/ground type which, last I checked, we were okay with in RSE.

How does Wobbuffet destroy stall teams? Toxic Spikes anyone?

If Wobbuffet is outspeeding your Skarmory (and not just going first because of priority), that's probably a sign your Skarmory is just plain too slow. Skarmory has base 70 speed and should always run a -satk nature since he'll never use that stat. Wobbuffet needs Jolly nature and 236 EVs to outspeed that which cripples his defensive ability, but Skarmory can just use 24 speed EVs to always outspeed any Wobbuffet. 24 EVs isn't what I'd call a huge investment, especially since that might let Skarmory outspeed a few other slow things anyway.

Bronzong is really the big thing that worries about being outsped by Wobbuffet, but it should be noted that he has the exact same base speed so it's just a question of who is willing to invest more. Bronzong can Explode on Wobbuffet too so if Bronzong can get a turn, Wobbuffet is taken care of.

Also, does anyone have any details about the event where Wobbuffet allegedly got Tickle? It's always possible that never happened and that Tickle Wobbuffet is simply illegal.

If you know something is too good, you would be more intelligent to use it anyway. Refusing to use a Pokemon because of how powerful it is is basically begging to lose every match so you have bigger problems than the ruleset if you're refusing to use Wobbuffet on that basis.

 

[rkatzam]

Encore will usually end before 6 Tickles, and then Skarmory can pick another move though depending on your set it might not help. If Skarmory predicts Wobbuffet will use this sort of nonsense, he is better off throwing a Brave Bird out and scoring two free STAB hits before dying to Counter. Nothing gets to set up, and this will more or less take Wobbuffet with him. Skarmory could use Toxic to ruin this as well; it's far less extreme than expecting everything to use HP Grass to be able to deal with a water/ground type which, last I checked, we were okay with in RSE.

How does Wobbuffet destroy stall teams? Toxic Spikes anyone?

If Wobbuffet is outspeeding your Skarmory (and not just going first because of priority), that's probably a sign your Skarmory is just plain too slow. Skarmory has base 70 speed and should always run a -satk nature since he'll never use that stat. Wobbuffet needs Jolly nature and 236 EVs to outspeed that which cripples his defensive ability, but Skarmory can just use 24 speed EVs to always outspeed any Wobbuffet. 24 EVs isn't what I'd call a huge investment, especially since that might let Skarmory outspeed a few other slow things anyway.

Bronzong is really the big thing that worries about being outsped by Wobbuffet, but it should be noted that he has the exact same base speed so it's just a question of who is willing to invest more. Bronzong can Explode on Wobbuffet too so if Bronzong can get a turn, Wobbuffet is taken care of.

But don't forget Softboiling Blissey, and MANY other slower yet bulky pokemon who can't afford to waste most of their EVs on speed just in case a Wobba appears and threatens to PP stall / struggle them to death. IF that is not "overcentralization", I honestly don't know what IS.

 

[the_artic_one]

Blissey has a higher base speed than wobbuffet and can can kill it with toxic, the rare singbliss can sleep it and ST it to death. A wobbuffet Ev'ed to outspeed blissey will be dead weight after blissey is gone (kinda like dugtrio). Also, adapting something to beat what counters it is not overcentralization, adapting your whole team is.

And is it really so bad to have (near)surefire blissey killer? There are arguments that blissey is overcentralizing to begin with.

 

[Cathy]

It overcentralises the metagame to the point where every wall will need a Shed Shell or U-Turn, and that just makes pokemon a whole lot less enjoyable.

I haven't written the script that will make the item usage data for the whole month (including which pokemon held them) yet, but I can give you some quick results for March 31st. On this day, 476 pokemon held a Shed Shell compared to 4345 holding a Choice Scarf, 6752 holding a Life Orb, and 28412 holding a Leftovers. Most of the Shed Shells were held by Skarmory which presumably held them before Wobbuffet was unbanned as well (though we don't have statistics on items before March). (Note that this includes pokemon that were not sent out, unlike the usage statistics.)

As for move usage, we can directly measure whether that has become more centralised (though U-turn usage has only negligibly increased from 0.30 usages per battle to 0.36 usages per battle or so), I just haven't written the script for it yet.

In any case Wobbuffet has been unbanned for two months now and the metagame has not changed a whole lot.

The "overcentralization" buffs keep screaming that "o we have hard evidence," but they still haven't provided me with either a line for a centralized metagame, or quantitative reasoning behind choosing that line.

The game hasn't become more centralised. No line is required to make this claim. As I've explained in the policy review, lines are indeed required when banning pokemon, but not when unbanning them. Quantitative reasoning has already been given (many times). Over the last few months the number of pokemon comprising the OU tier would have varied from 48->47->47. In other words, it has not been decreasing; in fact it is just the same random fluctuation as ever. This is not what we would expect if the game were actually becoming more centralised.

Wobbuffet has been unbanned two months now and there is still no evidence that it is causing the metagame to become more centralised. I'm not sure what you want here, Aldaron. Two months is a pretty long time and I would really expect that we'd be seeing some evidence of that centralisation by now, but it is just not materialising.

 

[rkatzam]

@the_artic_one

How is he "dead weight"? lol

You basically max his Def and SPD and don't switch him on special attacks. And if you intend for him to outrun Blissey, you still have some left for Sp.Def. That way he can still revenge kill physical pokes and stall slower pokes to death. Toxic/Sing won't do nothing due to Safeguard.

 

[the_artic_one]

Except to use safeguard, you have to be faster/not have your switch predicted.

With all the heavy hitters and enty hazards in d/p, wobba doesn't last quite as long as you'd think (especially without maximal defense investment).

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Blissey has a higher base speed than wobbuffet and can can kill it with toxic, the rare singbliss can sleep it and ST it to death. A wobbuffet Ev'ed to outspeed blissey will be dead weight after blissey is gone (kinda like dugtrio). Also, adapting something to beat what counters it is not overcentralization, adapting your whole team is.

And is it really so bad to have (near)surefire blissey killer? There are arguments that blissey is overcentralizing to begin with.

Except not at all with the strategies being discussed here. How many Blisseys run any speed EVs? Dumping some speed into Wobby totally screws over Blissey since now you can Encore to your hearts content, and Tickle. I'm actually rather surprised no one brought this up earlier, as this strategy is a dead simple way to kill not only Blissey, but most walls in the game. This is much scarier then normal Encore/Mirror Coat/Counter/Set up something else.

Should our walls start EVing in Speed now because we're afraid of using Softboiled, Stealth Rocks, and such? That just opens up our walls against the stronger threats, and replacing all Lefties with Shed Shell is just stupid. Its a one shot "GET ME THE FUCK OUT OF HERE", and you're totally screwed if you don't kill the opposing Wobbufett. Losing lefties and being forced to EV Speed just makes the walls less useful against everything but Wobbufett.

And seriously, usage statistics are weak and should not have any impact of tier placements. It requires hypothesizing, calculations, and testing to do that. Going "LOLUNBANNED" in Shoddy doesn't do much. As a community, we obviously over looked Tickle+Pursuit.

Just one more reason to hate Wobbufett. And using italics makes me look serious.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

AA, I couldn't have said it better myself. Jumpman, your scenario is predicated, at least in part, on your opponent not realizing that Encore is going to go before Whirlwind. In other words, you're assuming your opponent is going to make a particularly amateurish mistake. Granted, the standard Skarmory isn't going to be able to do much other than Brave Bird, but that's the price you pay for your walling moveset. No Pokémon can deal with everything and Skarmory has the option of Taunt.

Wobbuffet makes Blissey useless? How is it centralizing when one of the most-used Pokémon becomes less useful?

As for this Tickle set specifically, has there ever been any talk of just banning event moves on Pokémon? I don't think it would hurt the metagame. The greatest impact would probably be fewer Pokémon with Wish.

 

[the_artic_one]

Tickle is a non-issue outside of shoddy anyway (it's an nyc move apparently).

Blissey would be just as screwed with a t-tar/dugtrio combo and skarm/zong/forretress would be screwed even easier with a magnezone. Also, don't tell me Bliss can't spare the EVs needed to outspeed wobba, it doesn't need any more spd and def ev's are meaningless seeing as you shouldn't be leaving it in on physical attackers anyway.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

AA, I couldn't have said it better myself. Jumpman, your scenario is predicated, at least in part, on your opponent not realizing that Encore is going to go before Whirlwind. AKA, you're assuming your opponent is going to make a particularly amateurish mistake. Granted, the standard Skarmory isn't going to be able to do much other than Brave Bird, but that's the price you pay for your tanking moveset. No Pokémon can deal with everything and Skarmory has the option of Taunt.

Assuming Skarmory is faster. What I've been seeing here is that we're sacrificing some defense EVs to outspeed basically all walls. In this case, you try to set up Stealth Rocks, Wobby comes in. Wobby then encores before Skarmory can even move, forcing it into Stealth Rocks. This works on basically all tanks that run no speed EVs. Wobby won't be nearly as good at the standard Encore+Counter/Mirror Coat, but this is far more dangerous. Are we ready to start calling everyone who uses Stealth Rocks an amateur?

Wobbuffet makes Blissey useless? How is it centralizing when one of the most-used Pokémon becomes less useful?

Not that making Blissey usless is bad, but it is true. Blissey has no hope against this set up as you're not going to be able hurt Wobby much, and the best you could do is predict the switch and Sing or switch yourself to your own Pursuit user. This is also assuming the Pursuit user can OHKO regardless of a switch, as Wobby still runs the risk of Countering back. I could see this set making use of a Focus Sash fairly well.

As for this Tickle set specifically, has there ever been any talk of just banning event moves on Pokémon? I don't think it would hurt the metagame. The greatest impact would probably be fewer Pokémon with Wish.

Banning specific things is a slippery slope. It might work in Shoddy, but is a beast to enforce in game. There is a difference between banning Double Team for everyone, and only on one Pokemon. Then you open the door for all sorts of crap like "Garchomp wouldn't be so bad without Outrage or EQ" and I'm sure we all want to go through all those topics...

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Tickle is a non-issue outside of shoddy anyway (it's an nyc move apparently).

Blissey would be just as screwed with a t-tar/dugtrio combo and skarm/zong/forretress would be screwed even easier with a magnezone. Also, don't tell me Bliss can't spare the EVs needed to outspeed wobba, it doesn't need any more spd and def ev's are meaningless seeing as you shouldn't be leaving it in on physical attackers anyway.

Some people are crazy enough to use Blissey to counter CBchomps with Ice Beam, and can't afford losing and Def or SpAtt. Also, this isn't just a Blissey issue. This effects all the walls in the game. I'd assume using Skarm was an extreme example on how to ruin one of the best Physical walls in the game with little effort. Imagine what this does if you're not Steel or base 140 Def?

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Banning specific things is a slippery slope. It might work in Shoddy, but is a beast to enforce in game. There is a difference between banning Double Team for everyone, and only on one Pokemon. Then you open the door for all sorts of crap like "Garchomp wouldn't be so bad without Outrage or EQ" and I'm sure we all want to go through all those topics...

I wasn't suggesting banning only Tickle Wobbuffet. I fail to see how placing a blanket ban on all event moves is any more specific than banning Double Team and Minimize.

Assuming Skarmory is faster. What I've been seeing here is that we're sacrificing some defense EVs to outspeed basically all walls. In this case, you try to set up Stealth Rocks, Wobby comes in. Wobby then encores before Skarmory can even move, forcing it into Stealth Rocks. This works on basically all tanks that run no speed EVs. Wobby won't be nearly as good at the standard Encore+Counter/Mirror Coat, but this is far more dangerous. Are we ready to start calling everyone who uses Stealth Rocks an amateur?

You sure do like putting words in people's mouths, don't you? Like AA says, you need 24 Speed EVs on Skarmory to outspeed all Wobbuffets without Choice Scarf. If you can't afford 24 EVs, that's your problem.

 

[the_artic_one]

Some people are crazy enough to use Blissey to counter CBchomps with Ice Beam, and can't afford losing and Def or SpAtt. Also, this isn't just a Blissey issue.
Those people deserve to lose.

This effects all the walls in the game. I'd assume using Skarm was an extreme example on how to ruin one of the best Physical walls in the game with little effort. Imagine what this does if you're not Steel or base 140 Def?
Nothing, because you outspeed wobba and take a chunk out of him/status him, dugtrio would be better in that situation.

 

[Carl]

Tickle is a non-issue outside of shoddy anyway (it's an nyc move apparently).

Blissey would be just as screwed with a t-tar/dugtrio combo and skarm/zong/forretress would be screwed even easier with a magnezone. Also, don't tell me Bliss can't spare the EVs needed to outspeed wobba, it doesn't need any more spd and def ev's are meaningless seeing as you shouldn't be leaving it in on physical attackers anyway.

Yep those defense EVs sure are useless.. not. I don't want to get into all the numbers about why Bold + 252 EVs are better since that's been discussed to death here on the forums at different points in time but there's a reason all the sets in smogondex recommend it. It does make a difference.

The thing that makes this Wobbuffet strategy better than say Dugtrio/Tar is that it works on ALL pokemon. You can pull this off with Tyranitar against literally anything that uses a non damaging move. So while you can say "this pokemon can counter Blissey like that too" you can't say the same when it comes to Bronzong or Hippowdon.


As for banning event moves, I wouldn't be against that one bit considering the odds of getting a legit one without someone using an AR to clone it. The biggest downside would be losing Wish Blissey but there's been debates about the legality of Wish+Bold too.