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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 2 (Secondary Type)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
Froslass is Ice/Ghost, not Ghost/Ice. He's saying that since main type is Fire and most pokemon don't replaced the main typing upon evolving, we should have the option of switching the types around if new evo wins.
BTW, Steelix break the mold as he's Steel/Ground when Onix was Rock/Ground.
BTW, Steelix break the mold as he's Steel/Ground when Onix was Rock/Ground.
Doesn't anyone else think that there are enough subseeders out there? Why would we design this to be a subseeder that uses STAB flamethrower instead of HP Fire? It would bring anything new. Personally I wouldn't even give this poke leech seed but even if we do, I don't think we should determine its stats based on how it would subseed.
All of these pokemon are already competent users of Leech Seed (though some are better than others:
Jumpluff, Celebi, Roserade, Breloom, Venasaur, Meganium, Sceptile, Torterra, Tangrowth, Ludicolo, Abomasnow and I'm sure there are more.
We don't need another one. We need another good FIRE pokemon. That's why we picked it as the main type.
All of these pokemon are already competent users of Leech Seed (though some are better than others:
Jumpluff, Celebi, Roserade, Breloom, Venasaur, Meganium, Sceptile, Torterra, Tangrowth, Ludicolo, Abomasnow and I'm sure there are more.
We don't need another one. We need another good FIRE pokemon. That's why we picked it as the main type.
FSS's spread is interesting, but I think that the HP just looks artifically low, like we made it that low just so it could be a better subseeder. I think that something along the lines of
75 HP / 70 Attack / 85 Defense / 105 Sp.Atk / 105 Sp.Def / 105 Speed
Would look a bit more natural and have virtually the same usability (I just took 10 from both defenses and dumped it in hp).
To GT: This post isn't a stat spread submission, I'm just making a suggestion on FSS's.
75 HP / 70 Attack / 85 Defense / 105 Sp.Atk / 105 Sp.Def / 105 Speed
Would look a bit more natural and have virtually the same usability (I just took 10 from both defenses and dumped it in hp).
To GT: This post isn't a stat spread submission, I'm just making a suggestion on FSS's.
I can't help all that much with the stats, but if we did want to go ahead and make it a Kingdra-parallel 540 seems logical and most of the spreads have been hovering around that number already, so it wouldn't be too hard to meet.
As for moves, I don't think it should have sleep powder/spore as option. I can't really see a burning plant putting me to sleep. Paralysis, however, makes sense. Maybe stun spore instead of thunder wave?
Also, I think it should have a fighting move available: although most of the rock users wandering around aren't rock type, it would be good for those that are, plus it could help against blissey/clefable. Drain punch comes to mind, since it would fit in with the recovery moves that have shown up on pretty much every moveset we've come up with so far and fits thematically, although it is quite weak. I know most people probably wouldn't use it, but we could throw it in there to add unpredictability and to round out the movepool.
As for moves, I don't think it should have sleep powder/spore as option. I can't really see a burning plant putting me to sleep. Paralysis, however, makes sense. Maybe stun spore instead of thunder wave?
Also, I think it should have a fighting move available: although most of the rock users wandering around aren't rock type, it would be good for those that are, plus it could help against blissey/clefable. Drain punch comes to mind, since it would fit in with the recovery moves that have shown up on pretty much every moveset we've come up with so far and fits thematically, although it is quite weak. I know most people probably wouldn't use it, but we could throw it in there to add unpredictability and to round out the movepool.
Devoninja brings up the most valid point guys; this is a FIRE Pokemon first and foremost; to have its HP low to take advantage of Subseeding and its SECOND type is a bit counterintuitive.
I think the general agreement so far has been to make it bulky, so that it can support the team efficiently with the unique Will-o-wisp + Leech Seed combination, and that it would attack specially (this seems to be common, anyway).
So we can safely assume that Defense, Special Defense and Special Attack with be high, while Attack will be lower.
The main discrepancy is within the HP and Speed stats. I personally don't want to even come close to 105 base speed if we give it Chlorophyll (which it definitely seems like we are going to); in fact, I'd prefer it to be lower than Kingdra's 85 base Speed, possibly as low as 70 base Speed so that it reaches 262 max, and base 110 Pokemon can outspeed it with Scarf in Sun. As much as people claim that Kingdra is "overrated" or whatever in OU, I will personally claim that my experience on Ladder has been decidedly in the opposite. Kingdra is easily the most broken Pokemon in OU in Rain, and much of that is due to its potential to reach such ridiculously high Speed in Rain. Once in Rain, it is really only stopped by Waters and Thunder Wave threats, all of which get hit HARD by Life Orb HP Electric / Draco Meteor or Waterfall (in the case of Blissey).
As for HP, remember guys, this is a FIRE Pokemon first, not a Subseeding Grasser. Don't emphasize a low HP just because you want it to be an efficient one. I seriously recommend a higher HP, with 55 being the absolute lowest I would be willing to consider, though that is still way to low for me.
And I still have issue with this 545 bit; 540 seems to be the more logical choice.
I think the general agreement so far has been to make it bulky, so that it can support the team efficiently with the unique Will-o-wisp + Leech Seed combination, and that it would attack specially (this seems to be common, anyway).
So we can safely assume that Defense, Special Defense and Special Attack with be high, while Attack will be lower.
The main discrepancy is within the HP and Speed stats. I personally don't want to even come close to 105 base speed if we give it Chlorophyll (which it definitely seems like we are going to); in fact, I'd prefer it to be lower than Kingdra's 85 base Speed, possibly as low as 70 base Speed so that it reaches 262 max, and base 110 Pokemon can outspeed it with Scarf in Sun. As much as people claim that Kingdra is "overrated" or whatever in OU, I will personally claim that my experience on Ladder has been decidedly in the opposite. Kingdra is easily the most broken Pokemon in OU in Rain, and much of that is due to its potential to reach such ridiculously high Speed in Rain. Once in Rain, it is really only stopped by Waters and Thunder Wave threats, all of which get hit HARD by Life Orb HP Electric / Draco Meteor or Waterfall (in the case of Blissey).
As for HP, remember guys, this is a FIRE Pokemon first, not a Subseeding Grasser. Don't emphasize a low HP just because you want it to be an efficient one. I seriously recommend a higher HP, with 55 being the absolute lowest I would be willing to consider, though that is still way to low for me.
And I still have issue with this 545 bit; 540 seems to be the more logical choice.
And why not lowering HP? My spread, with only 40 Base HP, still has the same durability as Kingdra, while also having good speed and decent special attacks, so it's not that it can't sweep. And, why a Fire pokémon can't have low HP? Ground pokémon have typically a lot of HP, yet Dugtrio has a measly 35 HP. And Ghost pokémon have typically very low HP, yet Drifblim has 150 HP.
Oh, and if you are worried about its Fire part... Believe me, STAB Flamethrower or Fire Blast makes A WORLD of difference on a subseeder. No longer will Skarmory come to PHaze you away by taking only ~50% damage from Hidden Power Fire and then Roosting the damage. Metagross will also not come on you Grass knot anymore to remove your sub and kill you with Bullet Punch, while also around 50% damage from Hidden Power Fire. No, those counters are totally out, and thanks to the fire type, which implies STAB and good fire moves.
And regarding spreads, I only posted mine because other spreads were being posted, and I didn't want to stay behind. I would have preferred to discuss things more roughly first, because we still have the Style and Build polls ahead before entering the BST threads. But a BST illustrates an idea as well as a bunch of words, I guess.
P.D.: FSS, a 55 base HP pokémon has a minimum 251 HP with 31 IVs, not 221 (that's corresponding to 40 base HP, like the one I proposed). The base 55 HP pokémon needs 20 EVs to get 256 HP, divisible by 16.
Charizard~ 78/84/78/109/85/100
Ninetales~ 73/76/75/81/100/100
Arcanine~ 90/110/80/100/80/95
Rapidash~ 65/100/70/80/80/105
Flareon~ 65/130/60/95/110/65
Typhlosion~ 78/84/78/109/85/100 (Same base stat as freaking Charizard)
Magcargo~ 50/50/120/80/80/30
Houndoom~ 75/90/50/110/80/95
Blaziken~ 80/120/70/110/70/80
Camerupt~ 70/100/70/105/75/40
Torkoal~ 70/85/140/85/70/20
Infernape~ 76/104/71/104/71/108
Magmortar~ 75/95/67/125/95/83
Noticed something weird about them? I seem to see something odd.
The average range of HP in fire types: 72.6 or around 72-73
Ninetales~ 73/76/75/81/100/100
Arcanine~ 90/110/80/100/80/95
Rapidash~ 65/100/70/80/80/105
Flareon~ 65/130/60/95/110/65
Typhlosion~ 78/84/78/109/85/100 (Same base stat as freaking Charizard)
Magcargo~ 50/50/120/80/80/30
Houndoom~ 75/90/50/110/80/95
Blaziken~ 80/120/70/110/70/80
Camerupt~ 70/100/70/105/75/40
Torkoal~ 70/85/140/85/70/20
Infernape~ 76/104/71/104/71/108
Magmortar~ 75/95/67/125/95/83
Noticed something weird about them? I seem to see something odd.
The average range of HP in fire types: 72.6 or around 72-73
Uhh, I'm not sure exactly what you are going on about in your first paragraph Time Mage, lol.
What I mean to say, however, is that "the same durability as Kingdra" is pretty clearly not the impression I am getting from the posters in this thread. People like Karrot, Deck Knight, and I (just to name a few) seem to enjoy the idea of a bulky, not "kingdra durable," Pokemon. This means, unless you are going to make the defense stats really high like 130 each, you're going to have to have a moderate HP spread. As for your "against the grain" examples...ok...lol, that is kinda irrelevant?
As for your second paragraph...again...you're emphasizing the subseeding strategy for this Pokemon? We decided on Fire as the PRIMARY type for this, and are only NOW deciding on Grass as the SECONDARY type. Why should the primary strategy for a Pokemon be based on its secondary type...
Also, regarding your last paragraph, what is the big deal with the "leftovers numbers" I don't understand them. If you really want some sort of an "optimal" HP number, it would always be those "leftovers numbers" + 1, so that you could switch into Spikes more often.
Just to summarize the impressions I am getting from the posters in the thread, in case we are just having a misunderstanding, is that we wish it to be bulky and supportive, having access to moves such as Leech Seed, Will-o-wisp, Lava Plume, Reflect, and Light Screen, and also have at least moderate Speed and Special Attack to be able to take advantage of Chlorophyll (another assumption) in Sun with SunnyBeam. Relatively bulky would imply way higher bulkiness than Kingdra, IMO.
What I mean to say, however, is that "the same durability as Kingdra" is pretty clearly not the impression I am getting from the posters in this thread. People like Karrot, Deck Knight, and I (just to name a few) seem to enjoy the idea of a bulky, not "kingdra durable," Pokemon. This means, unless you are going to make the defense stats really high like 130 each, you're going to have to have a moderate HP spread. As for your "against the grain" examples...ok...lol, that is kinda irrelevant?
As for your second paragraph...again...you're emphasizing the subseeding strategy for this Pokemon? We decided on Fire as the PRIMARY type for this, and are only NOW deciding on Grass as the SECONDARY type. Why should the primary strategy for a Pokemon be based on its secondary type...
Also, regarding your last paragraph, what is the big deal with the "leftovers numbers" I don't understand them. If you really want some sort of an "optimal" HP number, it would always be those "leftovers numbers" + 1, so that you could switch into Spikes more often.
Just to summarize the impressions I am getting from the posters in the thread, in case we are just having a misunderstanding, is that we wish it to be bulky and supportive, having access to moves such as Leech Seed, Will-o-wisp, Lava Plume, Reflect, and Light Screen, and also have at least moderate Speed and Special Attack to be able to take advantage of Chlorophyll (another assumption) in Sun with SunnyBeam. Relatively bulky would imply way higher bulkiness than Kingdra, IMO.
Since No One noticed when I posted these before...
Two Spreads I've made/consider
HP: 110
Attack: 65
Def: 85
SpA: 115
SpD: 95
Speed: 65
535:
The type implies a sunny day pokemon, probably with leaf guard/chlloryphyll
I can see this guy using his good defenses and typing to do several jobs.
Sub-Seed: Substitute, Leech Seed, Ingrain/Grass Knot/Flamethrower/Earth Power (2 of 4)
Double Status Sub-Seed: Leech Seed, Substitute, Will o Wisp, Sleep Powder
Double Status attacker: Will o Wisp, Sleep Powder, Grass Knot, Flamethrower
Sunny Day Abuser: Sunny Day, Synthesis, Solarbeam, Flamethrower (Oh God)
Special Tank: Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice
I think he should be pretty balanced though. Most people will opt for the sub-seed and sunny day sets on this guy, and the sunny day set would be countered by heatran, the sub-seeding set by Celebi or most dragons. If this guy could set-up sweep too, he'd be unstoppable.
Moves I dont think this guy should have: Overheat, Spore (Oh GOD), Ice Beam, T-Bolt, Stat-Boosters besides Swords Dance, Baton Pass, U-turn,
And I'm getting way ahead of this project. Just got carried away, and wanted to share my ideas.
This could be a really interesting HP experiment, lots of drain and recover
You'd have to watch over him angelically though, attacking Blissey with that HP would be suicide.
HP: 55
Attack: 100
Def:100
SpA: 80
SpD: 105
Spe:105
BST: 545
(Yes I realize this is a shameless fusion of my idea with Time mage's design)
Solar Power/Hustle/chloryphyll/leaf guard/whatever @ leftovers/life orb
Substitute, Leech Seed, Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer
Could be scary, and interesting to experiment with HP.
I'm actually getting attached to this idea. Bipedal burning tree, wood hammer, flare blitz, a Close Combat here, Sub-seeder there, maybe a double-status set. A pokemon like this would be FUN to play. Throw in a solarbeam/flareblitz/sunnyday/synthesis set and you've got an unpredictable monster. I consider this to be a good design, trying to reconcile low HP, subseeders, sunnybeamers, physical and special.
Of course, we really are getting ahead of ourselves
Two Spreads I've made/consider
HP: 110
Attack: 65
Def: 85
SpA: 115
SpD: 95
Speed: 65
535:
The type implies a sunny day pokemon, probably with leaf guard/chlloryphyll
I can see this guy using his good defenses and typing to do several jobs.
Sub-Seed: Substitute, Leech Seed, Ingrain/Grass Knot/Flamethrower/Earth Power (2 of 4)
Double Status Sub-Seed: Leech Seed, Substitute, Will o Wisp, Sleep Powder
Double Status attacker: Will o Wisp, Sleep Powder, Grass Knot, Flamethrower
Sunny Day Abuser: Sunny Day, Synthesis, Solarbeam, Flamethrower (Oh God)
Special Tank: Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice
I think he should be pretty balanced though. Most people will opt for the sub-seed and sunny day sets on this guy, and the sunny day set would be countered by heatran, the sub-seeding set by Celebi or most dragons. If this guy could set-up sweep too, he'd be unstoppable.
Moves I dont think this guy should have: Overheat, Spore (Oh GOD), Ice Beam, T-Bolt, Stat-Boosters besides Swords Dance, Baton Pass, U-turn,
And I'm getting way ahead of this project. Just got carried away, and wanted to share my ideas.
This could be a really interesting HP experiment, lots of drain and recover
You'd have to watch over him angelically though, attacking Blissey with that HP would be suicide.
HP: 55
Attack: 100
Def:100
SpA: 80
SpD: 105
Spe:105
BST: 545
(Yes I realize this is a shameless fusion of my idea with Time mage's design)
Solar Power/Hustle/chloryphyll/leaf guard/whatever @ leftovers/life orb
Substitute, Leech Seed, Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer
Could be scary, and interesting to experiment with HP.
I'm actually getting attached to this idea. Bipedal burning tree, wood hammer, flare blitz, a Close Combat here, Sub-seeder there, maybe a double-status set. A pokemon like this would be FUN to play. Throw in a solarbeam/flareblitz/sunnyday/synthesis set and you've got an unpredictable monster. I consider this to be a good design, trying to reconcile low HP, subseeders, sunnybeamers, physical and special.
Of course, we really are getting ahead of ourselves
1. Just because SubSeed is an option, doesn't mean it's the only one. It's just the main one we're focusing on at the moment, because it's specific based on movepool rather than stats or art. Any other strategy will need to have stats or the rest of the movepool known. The rest of the movepool cannot be known until art is known.
2. Fire Pokemon have low ass HP, as GT showed. By giving them bulky defenses, in addition to low HP, it achieves the same basic result as a moderately high spread throughout the three stats. Therefore, if we want bulk we can either go huge hp and moderate-low defenses, moderate-high spread of the three, or low hp and high defenses. This means the end result is the same, and still achieved, while accomplishing a secondary goal of making it a good SubSeeder.
3. As for speed, this is debatable, but it needs to be at least 60, and if we decide to not give it chlorophyl, then it needs at least 101.
2. Fire Pokemon have low ass HP, as GT showed. By giving them bulky defenses, in addition to low HP, it achieves the same basic result as a moderately high spread throughout the three stats. Therefore, if we want bulk we can either go huge hp and moderate-low defenses, moderate-high spread of the three, or low hp and high defenses. This means the end result is the same, and still achieved, while accomplishing a secondary goal of making it a good SubSeeder.
3. As for speed, this is debatable, but it needs to be at least 60, and if we decide to not give it chlorophyl, then it needs at least 101.
I was thinking something more along these lines.
Name: [Lion Pokemon]
Type: Fire/Grass
Stats: Balanced
Attack: Physical
Defense: Special
BS: 103/112/71/73/110/71
BST 540
This pokemon could go two ways with this spread since its two highest stats are Atk and SDef. The difference would be the ability.
Flash Fire set:
Flare Blitz, Substitute, Leech Seed, Ingrain/Wood Hammer/useful attacking type
Attack EVs aren't very necessary for this set. Flare Blitz is already a vicious attack. Put those EVs into HP and Sdef instead. High HP with Leech Seed helps to take full advantage of Flare Blitz/ Wood Hammer. This set makes for a nice alternative to Blissey, sort of like a Hippowdon with high SDef instead.
Chlorophyll set
Flame Wheel/Flare Blitz, Power Whip/ Wood Hammer, Pick two of Sunny Day/Synthesis/useful attacking type
Set up sun either with another pokemon or when you come in, and sweep with the awesome speed. It still isn't as awesomely fast as Swift Swim Kingdra. Recoil moves would be hard to use on this set unless you add in synthesis. In general, most weather inducers aren't going to want to switch into it since grass and fire covers most of them for SE. They still have the ability to predict their way in on the NVE attack type.
quote of me from the previous thread:
I played up the idea of a male's flaming mane as a fearsome sight. The low speed draws form a lion's reputation for lethargy, but I gave the females an opportunity for a boost since real lionesses do the majority of the hunting.
Picture of female:
Name: [Lion Pokemon]
Type: Fire/Grass
Stats: Balanced
Attack: Physical
Defense: Special
BS: 103/112/71/73/110/71
BST 540
This pokemon could go two ways with this spread since its two highest stats are Atk and SDef. The difference would be the ability.
Flash Fire set:
Flare Blitz, Substitute, Leech Seed, Ingrain/Wood Hammer/useful attacking type
Attack EVs aren't very necessary for this set. Flare Blitz is already a vicious attack. Put those EVs into HP and Sdef instead. High HP with Leech Seed helps to take full advantage of Flare Blitz/ Wood Hammer. This set makes for a nice alternative to Blissey, sort of like a Hippowdon with high SDef instead.
Chlorophyll set
Flame Wheel/Flare Blitz, Power Whip/ Wood Hammer, Pick two of Sunny Day/Synthesis/useful attacking type
Set up sun either with another pokemon or when you come in, and sweep with the awesome speed. It still isn't as awesomely fast as Swift Swim Kingdra. Recoil moves would be hard to use on this set unless you add in synthesis. In general, most weather inducers aren't going to want to switch into it since grass and fire covers most of them for SE. They still have the ability to predict their way in on the NVE attack type.
quote of me from the previous thread:
I played up the idea of a male's flaming mane as a fearsome sight. The low speed draws form a lion's reputation for lethargy, but I gave the females an opportunity for a boost since real lionesses do the majority of the hunting.
Picture of female:
i like chronostrike's the most so far, though i'd prefer a higher physical defense....something along the lines of
100/105/80/70/110/75
BST: 540
or
90/110/80/80/105/80
BST: 545
mixed offence is possible, but a heavy emphasis on physical attacking. its just more interesting really. fire especially is a wall breaking type, and with fire and grass together, you have a really good shot against some of the bulkier pokes out there with just your stab moves alone. going special with a fire/grass is just too easy...
100/105/80/70/110/75
BST: 540
or
90/110/80/80/105/80
BST: 545
mixed offence is possible, but a heavy emphasis on physical attacking. its just more interesting really. fire especially is a wall breaking type, and with fire and grass together, you have a really good shot against some of the bulkier pokes out there with just your stab moves alone. going special with a fire/grass is just too easy...
Yea, that is my problem...why are we assuming the main strategy for a Fire / Grass with the INITIAL type as Fire is subseeding...Not only is subseeding already done very well by many other Pokemon (effectively removing the vital "Creativity" factor), but it is an emphasis on the secondary typing. Since we're all into giving this thing Chlorophyll, I think the "main" strategy or whatever we should be focusing on is that as opposed to this subseeding stuff. With Chlorophyll (and its high Speed in Sun), any spread will be an effective subseeder, so I don't even see the purpose of going even further to increase the effectiveness of that particular strategy, especially since we have so many Pokemon that do it effectively and that it is a strategy emphasizing the secondary typing.
Well, I already claimed 55 would be the low end of what I shooting for, but if you look at the average, it is basically 70, which is fine for a start. I just don't agree at all with something like 40 for base HP, as with Stealth Rock weakness + Seismic Tossing, we're seriously hurting a Pokemon just to emphasize some already common strategy that only emphasizes its secondary typing. Also, this is where I would use the "against the grain" card and hope for something new, like a Fire in OU with high HP. The highest we have right now (excluding Entei because it is a never used BL Pokemon) is Heatran at Base 91 HP.
Yea, I agree with you here. I offered 70 if it has Chlorophyll, since this would give it 524 Max Speed in Sun, still enough to outspeed a large majority of the game, but enough so that it is potentially game breaking (Base 110 Speed Pokemon can outspeed with a Scarf).
and still not one mention of my design.
Aldaron: Oh, well. I consider that both types have the exact same importance in a pokémon, so I'll use what I think will be better.
Also SR damage is a percentage, so the amount of HP is irrelevant. And considering that a subseeder worth its salt is behind a substitute when facing Blissey, ST will do exactly 25% damage, no more, no less. And against Blissey, that damage is EASILY recovered through Leech Seed.
But anyway, I'm proposing a spread, and a strategy that works best with that spread. But there are many roles that that spread can fulfill, so it's not limited to just subseeding.
A supporting tanks, as you propose, is an equally valid idea as a subseeder/fast sweeper, as I propose. I'm not claiming my idea is better, but I do declare that my idea in NOT inferior to yours. At all.
Also SR damage is a percentage, so the amount of HP is irrelevant. And considering that a subseeder worth its salt is behind a substitute when facing Blissey, ST will do exactly 25% damage, no more, no less. And against Blissey, that damage is EASILY recovered through Leech Seed.
But anyway, I'm proposing a spread, and a strategy that works best with that spread. But there are many roles that that spread can fulfill, so it's not limited to just subseeding.
A supporting tanks, as you propose, is an equally valid idea as a subseeder/fast sweeper, as I propose. I'm not claiming my idea is better, but I do declare that my idea in NOT inferior to yours. At all.
It's not the main strategy, it's a strategy, and the only one that's possible to focus on at the moment without knowing it's art or stats. I explained in the last post quite well about how designing it's defense spread around subseeding doesn't hurt it anymore for non subseeding sets. The only thing the subseed HP affects is Flame Blitz or whatever it's called, because of recoil damage.
Chlorophyl doesn't really lend itself to subseeding, since subseeding is supposed to take a while which is the opposite of chlorophyl. Why can't the Pokemon have more than one effect strategy? Not every secondary strat needs to be a gimmick.
I don't agree with 40 either, that's too low. 55 seems good for what we were shooting for, 60 even being perfectly fine.
Grass pokemon have low ass HP too but that if you think 70-80 in HP is low.
Yes, it's very debatable. Personally I think something between 60 and 100 will okay.
Grass
if is still allowed voting
i like the idea of a pokemon that can learn will-o wisp and the powders or another status move
if is still allowed voting
i like the idea of a pokemon that can learn will-o wisp and the powders or another status move
I believe the Eeveelutions would break that mold too, but then again, that might be a different story as they are mono-typed.
In any case, I want to see a Fire/Normal type. I'd really like to see a lion pokemon. I suppose Fire/Grass would be okay for a lion design too, but i prefer the Normal typing. Dual Normal types have not much to speak for, as it's only ever been paired with Flying, Psychic, and Water, and I think all of us here would like to show a little more love to the Normal type. I don't really care that it gains Fighting as a weakness, because I see a lion being superiorly powerful with neglected defenses, so of course it would most likely have a sweeper BST spread - i.e. high Atk, low Def. I would probably push this to be more physically oriented but with a respectable special attack stat too, not unlike Electivire. On that note, I can totally see this having a Fire type equivalent of Motor Drive, so instead of eating T-bolts and T-Waves it would be able to come in on WoW and FT (much like Heatran, except the boost in power is now a boost in speed). I guess what I'd like to see as a result of this project is a Fire-type somewhere in the range of Electivire.
Grass.
Now, I'm actually thinking this could become a physical tank.
HP-60
Attack-115
Defense-105
Sp. Attack- 75
Sp. Defense- 80
Speed- 110
Total- 545
I believe we should have a Fire/Grass pokemon, that has physical sweeping capabilities, or it can SubSeed, and take some hits if it has to.
Now, I'm actually thinking this could become a physical tank.
HP-60
Attack-115
Defense-105
Sp. Attack- 75
Sp. Defense- 80
Speed- 110
Total- 545
I believe we should have a Fire/Grass pokemon, that has physical sweeping capabilities, or it can SubSeed, and take some hits if it has to.
Uhh, since when did I mention that your idea was inferior, lol? You claim that having low HP and mediocre defenses (that are truthfully worse than Spiritomb's) has utility outside of Subseeding, but I don't see it.
What I meant by the Stealth Rock + Seismic Toss comment was assuming that you didn't have Leech Seed, because you claim that the spread has purposes other than Subseeding. Well ok, without Leech Seed, that low of an HP would leave it at 75% of its HP of a low amount after Stealth Rock, meaning Seismic Toss / Night Shade would be able to laugh at you should you not have that Leech Seed.
Also, I was proposing a supporting bulky Pokemon (not necessarily a tank) with the ability to sweep with moderate Speed and Special Attack in Sun with Chlorophyll (with moderate HP, at least). Meaning I am proposing a Pokemon that isn't focusing on an uncreative and unoriginal strategy (subseeding), as countless Pokemon already do this efficiently enough. What I am doing is promoting originality (via Leech Seed + Will-o-wisp combination, high HP Fire) and trying to balance the game (utilizing Sunny Day effectively). I'm not saying your spread does not do the same so much as the strategy it emphasizes, Subseeding, is already done so well by so many other Pokemon that it greatly reduces any originality factor. You claim it will be a "great" Subseeder with Fire STAB, but what is the point of making a "best" Pokemon at something that is already done well enough? That's kind of boring, tbh.
Now for Dane.
(you actually used the word main, btw, in your last post)
Wrong, we can also focus on the Chlorophyll sweeping strategy AND the team support strategy, with Leech Seed, Will-o-wisp, Lava Plume, Reflect and Light Screen all being viable potential moves. So that is 2 other strategies that can, and should, be emphasized over a strategy that emphasizes the secondary type and is itself a boring strategy utilized quite effectively by enough Grass Pokemon.
As for your claim that low HP high Defense Spread would not affect a non SubSeeding set, this is false. Low HP would leave it especially weak to Seismic Toss / Night Shade (think Shuckle) after Stealth Rock, and besides, you would have to increase the defenses by a lot more to compensate for a lower HP.
Your "quite well explanation" or whatever, lol, was wrong. What I mean by this is that a Pokemon with 100 HP / 70 Def / 70 SpD is more defensive on average than a Pokemon with 80 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD. This means that to match the average defensive power of a Pokemon with higher HP, you would have to add more to its defensive stats and effectively reduce its offensive prowess. Low HP is NEVER a good idea except SPECIFICALLY for Subseeding.
First of all, I never stated that we cannot discuss Subseeding as a viable strategy. I am commenting on how bad an idea it is to debilitate a Pokemon simply to emphasize this one strategy. I've already explained why having lower HP and higher Defenses is a worse idea on average than having Moderate HP and higher defenses.
And uhh, Chlorophyll does lend something to Subseeding, as it increases your Speed for 8 turns (7 assuming another Pokemon set up Sun for you and has the boosting item), and higher Speed is vital for effective Subseeding. Sure, it might only be viable for 7 turns, but that is still something.
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