DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Forsety]

Mach Punch from Adamant Technician Hitmontop definitely 1HKO's Houndoom, unless for some reason it's carrying a lot of HP EVs.

Nevermind, I forgot to factor in Technician, its OHKO'ing now. Still doesn't change nothing can realistically switch into it.

Are you serious? Typhlosion is a totally different issue.. his Eruption Choice Scarf set is deadly enough to destroy everything in UU metagame if they mispredict.

Thats abit of a exaggeration when both Ninetales and Rapidash are immune and Mantine takes neglectable damage from it and its next most threatening attack is Hidden Power. Also after Nasty Plot Houndoom has the same offensive power as Typhlosion Eruption. Also you seem to neglect Eruption is unreliable, second Typhlosion takes a Stealth Rock or any generic priority hit Eruption's power plummets.

I believe Houndoom deserves at least testing... look at Venomoth - the Specs version practically wrecks the best special UU walls, and I hear no one complaining about that.

It also forfeits its Sleep Power and doesn't have Nasty Plot coming off 110 special attack.

 

[stvn]

If Poliwrath is banned, Kabutops should be too. It has the necessary typing to balance things in UU, and I dont like to have to use Quagsire just to stop Kabutops.
Countering him is not difficult too, almost any Psychic type / Fighting resist does well (Vileplume, Grumpig, Hypno... just from the top of my head)

I'm againt the Scyther banning though, while its difficult to counter (only Torkoal, Sandslash and a defensive Rotom [but I think its just me that use the last one, a resttalking variant]) it can be revenged by a lot of scarfers (Glaceon, Relicanth, Nidoking, Kingler, Froslass [this dont even needs a scarf]). Drapion and Steelix in UU now will also make his life difficult.

Using Stealth Rock should be a priority on most UU teams too, that helps a lot!

 

[rkatzam]

Nevermind, I forgot to factor in Technician, its OHKO'ing now. Still doesn't change nothing can switch into it.

Thats abit of a exaggeration when both Ninetales and Rapidash are immune and Mantine takes neglectable damage from it and its next most threatening attack is Hidden Power. Also its not a different issue, Houndoom's Dark Pulse actually has a similar damage range to Typhlosion's Eruption full power. Except Houndoom can Nasty Plot on top of that...

Note how Houndoom can be 'countered' by the same Mantine. If they predict a Nasty Plot, Hitmons and Kabutops/Sharpedo can come in and Mach Punch/Aqua Jet for the kill (they also resist Houndoom's STAB Dark/Fire respectively). Ninetales, unlike Houndoom can put its counters to sleep and continue to Nasty Plot... NOT dying to random Aqua Jets.
Houndoom is quite fragile and won't have many chances to Nasty Plot.. Typhlosion can attack right off the bat with a strong Eruption.

*Specs version of Venomoth is still dangerous since nothing is stopping you from running Sleep Powder on it..

 

[Forsety]

And how does Dark Pulse matches Eruption at full power? Typhlosion has 109 SpA while Houndoom has 110.. huge different there.

Nasty Plot and I was in the middle of editting that to be clearer. Also Eruption's power can be reduced, Typhlosion is every bit as vulnerable to those priority attacks as Houndoom is. Also that same Mantine takes neutral damage from NP Dark Pulse which means it risks some heavy damage.

Ninetales, unlike Houndoom can put its counters to sleep and continue to Nasty Plot... NOT dying to random Aqua Jets.

It also has no second STAB and only 80 special attack.

*Specs version of Venomoth is still dangerous since nothing is stopping you from running Sleep Powder on it..

Nothing except it forces you to switch too.

 

[rkatzam]

Nasty Plot and I was in the middle of editting that to be clearer. Also Eruption's power can be reduced, Typhlosion is every bit as vulnerable to those priority attacks as Houndoom is. Also that same Mantine takes neutral damage from NP Dark Pulse which means it risks some heavy damage.

It also has no second STAB and only 80 special attack.

Nothing except it forces you to switch too.

I guess you edited it so I edited mine too to fit it. Typhlosion can actually survive those priority attacks unlike Houndoom. He's also faster.

Well, this argument can go on forever.. I guess the best way is just testing them both.

 

[xcfrisco]

Can anyone elucidate why the auto-weather pre-evo's (hippopotas, snover) are banned? I don't like the "too powerful" argument. Too powerful how? The way I see it, you sacrifice a precious team slot for some pretty crappy pokemon.

I can see the argument for sandstorm and how it boosts the rock/steel pokemon's already good defenses through the roof. Yet, rock is weak to like a million things and the rock/steels already get murdered by fighting and ground moves. Are there any examples I'm missing? I don't believe the ruining of endure/reversal strategies is a proper argument since endure/reversal is a pretty crappy strategy to begin with.

But, I don't see any reason to ban hail in UU. Are 100% accurate blizzard's really that destructive, especially considering that some of the prominent Ice users (Glaceon, Walrein, Froslass) with any decent STAB and SpAtt are getting moved to BL or have strong considerations to getting moved to BL? Hail's ONLY effect is the improvement of Blizzard's accuracy. There's some pretty solid walls that foil non-STAB'd Blizzard attempt (Probopass and Bastiodon laugh, and I don't think Hypno and Grumpig get 2hko'd by any non-STAB'd Blizzards). Again, can someone inform me on what I'm missing?

With all that said, I can't way until UU becomes a solid metagame. Great work guys trying to really flesh out a UU.

 

[phalanx]

if leafeon is coming into UU then kabutops has a very good counter there

 

[ODDish]

Can anyone elucidate why the auto-weather pre-evo's (hippopotas, snover) are banned? I don't like the "too powerful" argument. Too powerful how? The way I see it, you sacrifice a precious team slot for some pretty crappy pokemon ...

I can see the argument for sandstorm and how it boosts the rock/steel pokemon's already good defenses through the roof. Yet, rock is weak to like a million things and the rock/steels already get murdered by fighting and ground moves. Are there any examples I'm missing?

Cradily can already stall for all its worth, does it need the free boost? Sandslash and Cacturne can both hit hard and abuse sand veil.

But, I don't see any reason to ban hail in UU. Are 100% accurate blizzard's really that destructive, especially considering that some of the prominent Ice users (Glaceon, Walrein, Froslass) with any decent STAB and SpAtt are getting moved to BL or have strong considerations to getting moved to BL?

Why ban three perfectly useable pokemon for the sake of one crappy one?

Hail's ONLY effect is the improvement of Blizzard's accuracy.

And the constant damage?

There's some pretty solid walls that foil non-STAB'd Blizzard attempt (Probopass and Bastiodon laugh, and I don't think Hypno and Grumpig get 2hko'd by any non-STAB'd Blizzards). Again, can someone inform me on what I'm missing?

Neither have any reliable form of recovery so they won't last long, besides both Glaceon and Froslass typically carry Shadow Ball for the Psychics and Glaceon also carries HP Fighting.

With all that said, I can't way until UU becomes a solid metagame. Great work guys trying to really flesh out a UU.

There's also the fact that a number of players want UU to remain as distinct from other tiers as possible ... the absence of auto-weather is one of its more unique features.

 

[Forsety]

I guess you edited it so I edited mine too to fit it. Typhlosion can actually survive those priority attacks unlike Houndoom. He's also faster.

Well, this argument can go on forever.. I guess the best way is just testing them both.

Except they've both been tested back in the early days already and already deemed too strong. Heck Typhlosion actually lasted longer before being banned, its just flogging a dead horse.

 

[AJC]

I don't like the idea of Leafeon in UU

Mostly because most of the common true physcial walls take SE damage from its stab 110 base attack Leaf blade that can have a swords dance behind it and it can just roar to pevent it from being P-hazed by the WW/Roar users in UU because its faster than most of the users of the two moves in UU

also for stuff that resists it's leaf blade it can X-scissor Meganium who gets 2hkoed by it and since leafeon is faster it doesn't have to worry about anything it does and with no way to Phaze mega can't touch leafeon without a SE hidden power which will only 3hko it without investments to special attack which it can't afford anyways

Gligar can't phaze it due to having a slower roar and Leaf blade hits it Neutrally and it still risks leaf blade CHing it which will do alot of damage mercyfully because of the fact its slower it can't be hit SE while roosting and it can taunt leafeon but unless it Sword dances it won't kill leafeon before it gets killed by Leaf blade

Standard Golem normally gets OHKOed by Leaf blade even without a SD (unless the leafeon got unlucky with the random damage roll) so unless it rockpolished and is packing fire punch which still won't ohko thanks to leafeon's 130 base defense golem just dies promply

the water/ground types also can't handle it because all of them are slower and with the exception of focus sash counter quagshire and gastrodon can't do anything to leafeon before it kills them

the only things that really stop leafeon in UU are Altaria and the proposed to be moved down Steelix (who can still lose to leafeon because gyro ball does jack to 130 base defense and its slower than leafeon so it can be roared out by a SD passing one with roar) Altaria needs to be a special attacker to harm leafeon and steelix well just walls it with its fat defense (but can't really do anything back unless it has fire fang)

 

[ODDish]

Can you punctuate that a little please? It's kind of hard to follow at the moment.

 

[Dragontamer]

Just wondering... wasn't Houndoom on the "already discussed" list? I swear that I brought up Houndoom a few months ago only for it to be shot down hard. IIRC, the "already discussed" list contained Miltank, Houndoom, and Flygon...

I don't like the idea of Leafeon in UU

Mostly because most of the common true physcial walls take SE damage from its stab 110 base attack Leaf blade that can have a swords dance behind it and it can just roar to pevent it from being P-hazed by the WW/Roar users in UU because its faster than most of the users of the two moves in UU

I'm not too concerned about Leafeon's offense. Intimidate Arbock of all things can come in on just about anything and 2-hit KO with Gunk Shot. Muk can sludge bomb it. Ninetails outspeeds and OHKOs with flamethrower.

As long as you don't switch a "standard UU wall" in against Leafeon, you'll do fine. X-Scissor and Leaf Blade are walled by poison, fire, and steel pokemon... I'm not too concerned.

 

[xcfrisco]

There's also the fact that a number of players want UU to remain as distinct from other tiers as possible ... the absence of auto-weather is one of its more unique features..

I've said in the other thread that I don't consider UU "uniqueness" a valid argument the way tiers are set-up at Smogon.

Here's what I got from your arguments:

-Cradily is the reason instant SS is too powerful for UU.
-Glaceon and Froslass make instant Hail too powerful in UU (Wallrein I believe is in limbo to going to BL).

Are these the only arguments anyone can provide for why weather is too devastating for UU?

I think the potential exclusion of 3 pokemon isn't such a terrible trade for the dynamics and strategies auto-weather produces in UU. Plus, I can see Cradily being countered by STAB'd Blizzard from the aformetioned pokes and I can see the Ice pokemon being countered by the rock/steels in SS. These 3 pokemon don't seem so broken if you allow BOTH hail and SS to be viable strategies.

 

[Bologo]

Ok, sorry but I have one more little objection to make that I didn't really notice much before.

I haven't actually tested it in UU, but I really want to know what you guys think of Relicanth in UU. Does it deserve to be banned to BL? From what it seems so far, there's nothing besides Quagsire and Poliwrath that can actually wall the thing in UU, this is according to the analysis at least. Seriously, nothing besides those two can really switch into Relicanth because it has that STAB Head Smash which destroys even physical walls.

Now, let's look at those two potential counters in UU:

Quagsire, who was teetering over UU and NU from what I saw in the last thread's list can still easily be 3HKOed by a Choice Banded Head Smash, which is resisted nonetheless, unless Quagsire invests extremely heavily in HP/Defense EVs. This means that it'll most likely lose since Relicanth usually invests lots of HP since it doesn't need much speed unless it's pulling a Rock Polish set. Earthquake is a 3HKO, and since Relicanth is faster, plus the factor of Quagsire being the one that has to switch in, Relicanth wins.

Then let's look at Poliwrath. It basically suffers the same fate as Quagsire because unless it runs one of those "Even More Defensive Tadpole" sets, it's going to lose since that set's a 252 HP/252 Def +Def Nature, it only has 4 Atk EVs, which means that Brick Break, Poliwrath's only reliable Fighting STAB scores a 4HKO on a 252 HP Relicanth a majority of the time, which means that Poliwrath loses since it has to switch in Head Smash, and keep taking higher damage without dishing it out in big enough amounts.

Relicanth isn't short on coverage either, but the only gripe I have with him is Head Smash's low PP, but hey, that didn't stop Shaymin with his Seed Flaring.

Like I said, I personally haven't tested it in UU itself, so I'd like to get other people's opinions who have tested it to see if it really belongs in UU.

I'd like to see a bit more discussion on Relicanth, because I'm still very unsure about that guy's status, because my quoted post only got 1 response in the last thread.

 

[ODDish]

I think the potential exclusion of 3 pokemon isn't such a terrible trade for the dynamics and strategies auto-weather produces in UU.

What strategies do hail or sandstream actually promote other than increasing the likelihood of stall based teams?

 

[xcfrisco]

What strategies do hail or sandstream actually promote other than incresing the likelihood of stall based teams?

The addition of a stall based strategy to UU would be huge. It would drastically change UU environment and I believe is worth looking into (and I hate stall, lol, but i can at least recognize it as a viable, not broken, competitive strategy).

 

[obi]

I'd like to briefly mention something brought up on the other thread before it closed.

People were saying that we shouldn't move Regigigas down to UU because it might be getting levitate in an as-yet-unannounced future game.

This is ridiculous. This is like the people who tried to tier Pokemon before DP was even released in Japan. This is really the definition of playing Theorymon. We shouldn't base our tiers on unconfirmed rumors. If / when these rumors are confirmed, we still shouldn't modify our tiers. We do not change our tiers based on guesses for what effect something will have. We do not change our tiers based on Pokemon not yet released. The only effect this Pokemon will have is when it is released (assuming it is released). Until then, we just have Slow Start Regigigas.

 

[EconBiscuit]

I agree with Obi, it'd be like moving Flareon up because it finally learned some decent moves based off rumours.

If Regigas is indeed given levitate then the tiers can be re-arranged for when this actually happens.

 

[ODDish]

xcfrisco
I've said in the other thread that I don't consider UU "uniqueness" a valid argument the way tiers are set-up at Smogon.

Unfortunately I do, which is why I think we are unlikely to reach any sort of agreement regarding Snover and Hippopotas, so if you don't mind I'll let others weigh in on this issue before making any further posts ...

 

[EconBiscuit]

Auto weather would drastically change the UU enviroment, everything that has been discussed and worked on before and after D/P came out would be null and void with Auto-Weather.

I don't think that drastic changes are what we are in the need for, esp. ones that create a even more polluted UU tier.

I agree with ODDish on most of his posts on this topic, and I feel that i'd really just be re-iterating what he is saying.

 

[Forsety]

I'd like to briefly mention something brought up on the other thread before it closed.

People were saying that we shouldn't move Regigigas down to UU because it might be getting levitate in an as-yet-unannounced future game.

It was a pretty silly concern.

But the other concern was perfectly legit in that Regigigas's stall game is significantly stronger within UU. Its actually very hard to get a hit in with its parafusion and even harder to damage it properly. If a Light Screen or Reflect is thrown up first its really quite something.

Many players felt strongly about the way auto Hail and Sandstorm dominates. In fact putting that aside, most of the time when creating tiers the main goal is to create an environment where there is a larger viable selection. By banning two very easily abusable NFE's in turn weakening quite a lot who would've otherwise been too broken for UU. At the same time damaging weather IS broken in the UU tier, many generally lack recovery or the defenses to take hits/passive damage and have immense Stealth Rock weaknesses, it evened the playing field in a sense. Its a case of choosing the lesser of two evils.

Many players felt strongly about the way auto Hail and Sandstorm dominates. In fact putting that aside, most of the time when creating tiers the main goal is to create an environment where there is a larger viable selection. By banning two very easily abusable NFE's in turn weakening quite a lot who would've otherwise been too broken for UU. At the same time damaging weather IS broken in the UU tier, many generally lack recovery or the defenses to take hits/passive damage and have immense Stealth Rock weaknesses, it evened the playing field in a sense. Its a case of choosing the lesser of two evils.

 

[phalanx]

we still have the fact regigigas has 670 base stats, UU pokes are not as strong as OU and whether they could deal with one is another thing

 

[Pneuma]

You do realize that Regigigas under Slow Start has base stats effectively worse than most NU, right?

 

[beefdreams]

Regigigas poses little threat until slow start is gone. If you cannot handle it before those turns are over via phazing or knock out, you deserve to be swept.

 

[EconBiscuit]

Actually Slow Start Regigas has 540 Base Stat total

80/80/50 Offenses
110/110/110 Defenses

After 5 Turns have past

160/80/100 Offense
110/110/110 Defnese

Albeit No Recovery move