Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

[phalanx]

I'm going to try and use the wobbuffet's encore later, not to annoy a pokemon but to allow me to set up (encoring a stat boost (CM, DD) then bringing in a pokemon to take advantage of those encored boosts in the free turn with psych-up (gengar, starmie togekiss, porygon-z and gardevoir would love some CM's, metagross, medicham, wevile would love DD), this will be an interesting test, and should be easy to pull off, just hope people don't start throwing obscure teams at it.

 

[Bourbon]

I'm going to try and use the wobbuffet's encore later, not to annoy a pokemon but to allow me to set up (encoring a stat boost (CM, DD) then bringing in a pokemon to take advantage of those encored boosts in the free turn with psych-up (gengar, starmie togekiss, porygon-z and gardevoir would love some CM's, metagross, medicham, wevile would love DD), this will be an interesting test, and should be easy to pull off, just hope people don't start throwing obscure teams at it.

WOW... Get a Calm Minding Suicine and then Psych Up with Gengar... GG anyone?

That's really smart Phalanx... I still can't believe no one thought of that yet.

 

[Jumpman16]

But just to be safe, any argument used against Wobbuffet can probably be used for it and then we'll go in a never ending hypocritical circle of posts so..

...we should post logs to back up our arguments as I've encouraged and urged for the last couple of pages. I would honestly like to see how your offensive team dealt with Wobbuffet from start to finish.

I'll try to avoid posting entire logs, as the only part that really matters is how Wobb works:

Don't do this...how many times do I have to say that full logs are encouraged so we can see the entire context?

Jirachi used Thunder.
It's super effective!
Skarmory lost 66% of its health.
Lord Alchemy's Skarmory fainted.
Jirachi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jirachi restored 6% of its health.
---
Here I was caught of guard seeing as most Jirachi's are Zen/U-turn, but I saw this fellow use U-turn earlier in the match which basically gives me a free kill with Wobbuffet.

---
Lord Alchemy switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Jirachi used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Wobbuffet lost 23% of its health.
Random Internet Guy switched in GreenZor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Counter.
Scizor lost 88% of its health.
Random Internet Guy's Scizor fainted.

Like, I'm going to assume that Jirachi didn't have any Calm Minds under its belt, and you can think "well, obviously" but it isn't. If it were indeed a CM variant then maybe that's why it used U-turn again because it "knew you were going to Mirror Coat" because it knows a +1 or +2 Thunder doesn't kill Wobby. See what I'm saying?

You're not so bulky now, dead Scizor. U-turn isn't a great counter when you do Super Effective damage to something with a crap load of HP and the ability to do double damage back. It can be rather easy to counter U-turns, especially Jirachi ones. I also countered a Gallades Night Slash immediately after to OHKO it, but that was just a miscalculation on Random Internet Guy's part.

The argument is usually that U-turn + Ghost-Type is the "great counter", but it's been proven that U-turn usage has not risen in the last 2-3 months (as with Shed Shell) so it doesn't seem that people are actively employing a U-turn strategy to counter Wobbuffet anyway.

As for standard Ticklefett shenanigans, do we really need logs? Slow tank thing comes out, does a non-attack move like Softboiled, Roost, Stealth Rocks, and gets locked into it, 6 tickles, out comes CB Pursuit thing. I've been enjoying a Choice Banded Metagross for my Pursuit flavors, but have thought about going the T-Tar route, just seems easier to get Metagross in opening up more Tickle opportunities.

The answer is: yes, yes, a million times yes. In fact, reread, the last paragraph of my last reply to you because it 100% applies to what you're saying here. I posted the set for a reason. People still aren't using Wobbuffet any more than they were 2-3 months ago—they in fact are using it less (#39 -> #43 -> #43, weighted usage). I don't think you appreciate the fact that I actually may want Wobbuffet banned...why else would I have posted this set as a thread in Stark Mountain over two months ago?

But as I said earlier, if there seriously is little to no literal evidence that this set is as dominant as both you and I think it is on paper, then...maybe it isn't. A way to fix this? Posting full, unaltered battle logs, as I've urged and encouraged.

 

[phalanx]

well hopefully I will have some logs of the psych-up, and yes full logs are handy, afterall your wobby action could have swung the battle for or against ;)

 

[Jumpman16]

I'm going to try and use the wobbuffet's encore later, not to annoy a pokemon but to allow me to set up (encoring a stat boost (CM, DD) then bringing in a pokemon to take advantage of those encored boosts in the free turn with psych-up (gengar, starmie togekiss, porygon-z and gardevoir would love some CM's, metagross, medicham, wevile would love DD), this will be an interesting test, and should be easy to pull off, just hope people don't start throwing obscure teams at it.

if you honestly think that an encored stat-up pokemon is going to stay in after you switch in a pokemon that can no longer trap it then knock yourself out, please post your logs regardless

and good luck encoring pretty much the only two dragon dancers in Gyarados and Tyranitar when the former has Taunt and that latter can do 99% to wobby with just one DD...which means that you have to switch wobbuffet into tyranitar (and gyarados) as soon as you see it...

i realize im combating theorymon with theorymon but i'm trying to save you time, you may want to try another strategy with wobbuffet instead

 

[Lord Alchemy]

People seem to be lagging out like hell against me on Shoddy, but here is an entire unedited (minus Player names, I don't post other peoples names without permission) log of Wobby sacrificing itself for a free Celebi kill. I should probably do the damage calcs to see how many Tickles are needed to OHKO Celebi, but Wobb is rather useless with low HP and being poisoned, and dying makes it easier to switch in since I don't waste a turn of Encore.

*NOTE: My team has a bit of an issue with Toxic Spikes at the moment, but that hasn't stopped it from being fairly effective. I keep shuffling around my tanks/phazers/lead.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause

Lord Alchemy sent out Snorlax (lvl 100 Snorlax ?).
Random Internet Guy sent out Roserade (lvl 100 Roserade ?).
Roserade used Sleep Powder.
Snorlax fell asleep!
Snorlax's Lum Berry cured its Sleep!
Snorlax used Ice Punch.
It's super effective!
Roserade lost 100% of its health.
Roserade hung on using its Focus Sash!
---
Roserade used Sleep Powder.
Snorlax fell asleep!
Snorlax is fast asleep!
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Skarmory (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Roserade used Toxic Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
Random Internet Guy switched in Spiritomb (lvl 100 Spiritomb ?).
Spiritomb is exerting its pressure!
Skarmory used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Blissey was poisoned!
Blissey was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Spiritomb used Taunt.
Blissey fell for the taunt!
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Blissey used Ice Beam.
Spiritomb lost 14% of its health.
Spiritomb used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Spiritomb used Sucker Punch.
Blissey lost 28% of its health.
Blissey used Ice Beam.
Spiritomb lost 15% of its health.
Blissey's taunt wore off!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Wobbuffet was poisoned!
Wobbuffet was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Spiritomb used Taunt.
Wobbuffet fell for the taunt!
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Blissey was poisoned!
Blissey was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Spiritomb used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Spiritomb used Taunt.
Blissey fell for the taunt!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 5% of its health.
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Spiritomb used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
---
Random Internet Guy switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor).
Pointed stones dug into Gliscor.
GliRandom Internet Guy or lost 12% of its health.
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Metagross's attack missed!
Gliscors leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Blissey was poisoned!
Blissey was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 30% of its health.
Gliscors leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 27% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 27% of its health.
Blissey used Toxic.
Blissey's attack missed!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 27% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 30% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 28% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Blissey lost 27% of its health.
Blissey used Toxic.
Gliscor was badly poisoned!
Gliscor is hurt by poison!
Gliscor lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Random Internet Guy switched in Celebi (lvl 100 Celebi).
Pointed stones dug into Celebi.
Celebi lost 12% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
Blissey is hurt by poison!
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Celebi used Leech Seed.
Wobbuffet was seeded!
Celebi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Celebi restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's health was sapped by leech seed!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
---
Celebi used Heal Bell.
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Celebi got an encore!
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's health was sapped by leech seed!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
---
Celebi used Heal Bell.
Wobbuffet used Tickle.
Celebi's attack was lowered.
Celebi's defence was lowered.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's health was sapped by leech seed!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
---
Celebi used Heal Bell.
Wobbuffet used Tickle.
Celebi's attack was lowered.
Celebi's defence was lowered.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's health was sapped by leech seed!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Celebi regained health!
---
Celebi used Heal Bell.
Wobbuffet used Tickle.
Celebi's attack was lowered.
Celebi's defence was lowered.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Wobbuffet's health was sapped by leech seed!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Lord Alchemy 's Wobbuffet fainted.
Celebi regained health!
---
Lord Alchemy switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Metagross used Pursuit.
It's super effective!
Celebi lost 100% of its health.
Random Internet Guy 's Celebi fainted.
---
Random Internet Guy switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor).
Pointed stones dug into Gliscor.
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Lord Alchemy switched in Skarmory (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Gliscor used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Skarmory...
Gliscors leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Random Internet Guy has exhausted his or her time.
Lord Alchemy wins!
Random Internet Guy has left the room.

Also a fun trick I've discovered is bouncing Special attacking stat uppers around between Wobbufett and Blissey. They get a free Calm Mind or Nasty Plot, Wobb takes a hit and encores the attack, and Blissey comes in and Toxic/Seismic Tosses them to death. That or they get greedy and try to stat up on Wobb and then allow me to set up on them.

I'll work on more logs I suppose, but it seems like a majority leave the match once they see the Ticklefett start working.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

if you honestly think that an encored stat-up pokemon is going to stay in after you switch in a pokemon that can no longer trap it then knock yourself out, please post your logs regardless

This actually works sometimes. If you let someone get two stat ups, they tend to get really greedy and stay in, which allows you an easy set up of your own.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Awesome, that was me playing. I was doing something else and didn't pay attention to the battle. For some reason I thought there were two layers of Toxic Spikes. Also, I don't consider Tickle Wobbuffet to be legit, so I don't like playing against it. I thought you ran out of time, but it was me. I wanted to keep playing, but because I was doing something else, I ran out of time. I don't see how that log proves anything though.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I don't see how that log proves anything though.

That even in a pretty bad situation, Wobb can still pick a target to die at its own discretion. There are much better uses for Wobb, but against my team your biggest threats were Celebi and Spiritomb. Wobb has clear issues with Spiritomb, so I was very willing to trade my Wobb for your Celebi.

And the thing was, you had no real choice in the matter. You got a single turn to make the best decision, and the rest was up to me. It was a good four turns of you not playing.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

That even in a pretty bad situation, Wobb can still pick a target to die at its own discretion. There are much better uses for Wobb, but against my team your biggest threats were Celebi and Spiritomb. Wobb has clear issues with Spiritomb, so I was very willing to trade my Wobb for your Celebi.

And the thing was, you had no real choice in the matter. You got a single turn to make the best decision, and the rest was up to me. It was a good four turns of you not playing.

Wobbuffet with an illegal event move can. A normal Wobbuffet can't. I can't see Tickle as a valid argument.

 

[umbarsc]

What's illegal about Tickle?

 

[Shiny Crobat]

What's illegal about Tickle?

Was it ever proven to be a real event?

 

[umbarsc]

Was there ever any evidence that it wasn't a real event?

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Was there ever any evidence that it wasn't a real event?

First prove it was. Same story with Wishbliss.

 

[Cathy]

The evidence suggests that Tickle was for only one nature, and probably with limited IVs.

We are going to be removing all event moves due to restrictions and limited information and other reasons in the near future, when I get around to running the script that will do it. It will probably be less than a week.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

The evidence suggests that Tickle was for only one nature, and probably with limited IVs.

We are going to be removing all event moves due to restrictions and limited information and other reasons in the near future, when I get around to running the script that will do it. It will probably be less than a week.

Good to hear that. (It's very that evidence "suggests" though). Will Wish Blissey also be deleted?

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I have to wonder if this would have ever happened if Ticklefett never popped up.

 

[Tangerine]

The evidence suggests that Tickle was for only one nature, and probably with limited IVs.

We are going to be removing all event moves due to restrictions and limited information and other reasons in the near future, when I get around to running the script that will do it. It will probably be less than a week.

http://pokemon-ds.net/pokemon/pokepark.html

I guess AA missed my PM on shoddy - Tickle Wynaut Eggs are available in any nature, according to this website. Same with all the pokepark event move pokemon.

 

[Bourbon]

if you honestly think that an encored stat-up pokemon is going to stay in after you switch in a pokemon that can no longer trap it then knock yourself out, please post your logs regardless

and good luck encoring pretty much the only two dragon dancers in Gyarados and Tyranitar when the former has Taunt and that latter can do 99% to wobby with just one DD...which means that you have to switch wobbuffet into tyranitar (and gyarados) as soon as you see it...

i realize im combating theorymon with theorymon but i'm trying to save you time, you may want to try another strategy with wobbuffet instead

Wobbuffet doesn't HAVE to leave after he Encores. He could wait until you have 2-3 boosts under your belt before running off to the Psych Up pokemon.

WAIT WAIT WAIT... they can just switch out as soon a Wobbuffet leaves. Although, if it's a greedy piece of crap like Suicune it may stay in.

 

[matty]

The evidence suggests that Tickle was for only one nature, and probably with limited IVs.

We are going to be removing all event moves due to restrictions and limited information and other reasons in the near future, when I get around to running the script that will do it. It will probably be less than a week.

just to clarify, will this include wish blissey? (oh man, i can already hear the preemptive whining...)

or better yet, would you mind posting a list of what does get banned when you run the script?

 

[Odinwolf]

Haha, now we're using the Hillary Clinton method for denying problems: Certain things "don't count" because you don't think they are important or legal or some other random bit of nonsense. According to all the Japanese site posted above and other sites that track this stuff, the Wobbs with Tickle came in eggs that hatched with a variety of natures and IVs. Tickle Wobb is every bit as legal as any other event move or, for that matter, event poke. Jumping through all of these hoops to rationalize removing this one combination only further demonstrates that Wobb doesn't belong in standard play. You guys just aren't ready to admit it yet.

EDIT: Had a Japanese friend check the link above. The only restriction on the Wobb with Tickle is that it hatches as a female. The bottom of the page actually says that it can have more than one type of nature.

 

[scorchedsky]

..No, because there's no evidence in the game coding to suggest that Garchomp would be any different than any other normally bred pokemon. It's a lot easier to ban event moves as they are very limited in scope. If 100 Tickle Wynauts ever existed, can we really know if they came in all natures, or if only the beginning part of the PID was read or some other limiting factor? Surfing Pikachus can only be Hardy, for example. There's precedent for some event moves being limited in nature, which technically limits IVs.

However, some events, like Movie Darkrai, have well-documented distributions, and they can be proven to come in any nature with any IVs. While this is one case, it is not the majority of cases, and while taking away Spacial Rend and Roar of Time from Darkrai doesn't really affect it too much, they're still legit.

 

[Tangerine]

Stop going off topic.

Shoddy gets the mechanics directly from the game so in the end it doesnt matter. The game mechanics show that it's possible to have a max IV garchomp, so don't make silly remarks like that.

This isn't about event moves either - this is about Wobbuffet.

 

[umbarsc]

It was obviously a satirical remark. I know that it's possible to get any combination of IVs on a Garchomp. And it wasn't off-topic at all, because this is a Tickle Wobbuffet discussion and it was used to signify how ridiculous it is to call Tickle Wobbuffet illegit when evidence suggests that it is.

Honestly if you're goal is to delete "silly" remarks you obviously haven't been looking very hard. There's quite a few on this page even that we could have done without.

 

[Tangerine]

I was more of referring to phalanx's post with the silly remark but okay "whatever"

I only deleted the ones that were starting to derail the thread.