***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

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Uber.

It's one pokemon that replaces many. I doesnt so much beat choice scarf as make it utterly redundant. Other mixed sweepers are no where near as good as deoxys and certainly none of them have the versatility to run a spikes set.

Also you are cheating Obi, there are hundreds of ways of beating clefable. If it has taunt then it only has one attack and you should be able to stall it easily. If not you can roar, whirlwind, stat up against it, psych-up, encore, use a fighting type. All of these are common and practical in stall teams. Unlike in an offense based team where having a defensive pokemon can allow switches which, when your team is not designed with countering pokemon in mind, can be devastating. Granted a pokemon can always switch as a pokemon faints, but that implies you have already killed a pokemon, and so you can afford to make a sacrifice. The problem with Deoxys is that if you sacrifice against it, you still need a counter, because it is so damn fast, and bulky and able to hit you damn hard.

Have a nice day.
 
Jumpman16 said:
For a comparison I feel is valid, chaos's and skarm's stall teams of 2004 (which were virtually identical, the only difference from a Blissey/Suicune/Dusclops/Skarmory/Claydol core being chaos's Salamence to skarm's Zapdos) were virtually unstoppable in the right hands. chaos easily ran to 69-0 on NetBattle, a feat he was not able to accomplish with any other team(s). skarm ran a battle to 594 turns before winning simply because he could. When chaos and I made Boah in 2004, stall largely died out (and I am recounting this more for our newer users than you personally ipl, I wouldn't condescend to give you a history lesson). But you didn't hear anyone complaining about this, and I would argue that this is largely because "stall wasn't fun anyway".

Now we have basically the opposite happening, with DX-S allegedly killing offensive teams as much as you would have us believe. But now it's a case for uberness? I sure hope this doesn't have anything to do with "100% sweep" teams being more fun than stall teams, because it sure seems that way for the reasons I've outlined.
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Tyraniboah in advance is much, much different than D-S in d/p. Boah did dominate stall teams in a similar fashion to how D-S dominates offense, but the reason why this comparison is inaccurate is because of the simple fact that advance stall never died. If you tried using Tyraniboah against a current adv stall team, it would not work as you described it working in the past. Stall teams can keep stalling even against arguably the best stall-buster in pokemon history. Things like Light Screen Zapdos, RestTalk Swampert, etc exist and can be put into a stall team without compromising the "flow" of a team. Using Bronzong or Cresselia on a team that focuses primarily on revenge killing and resistances to counter things does change the nature of a team. Now, if I want to use offense, I HAVE to use Bronzong without Explosion, Pursuit Metagross or Wish Jirachi to handle D-S, or else I won't have much of a chance of beating it without relying on Life Orb recoil (which turns countering it into a guessing game, as I'll outline later in this post). Unlike adv stall when Boah was created, d/p "pure offense" (as Aldaron put it) won't be able to revive itself with the allowance of D-S in OU.

Aldaron said:
Basically, Deoxys-S can easily be countered, but on the reverse side, it actually forces people to counter it due to its ability to completely sweep late game. The real question would be how drastic this "forcing" issue is.
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Well, we agree here. I just think that forcing any issue is a big deal. Forcing a 100% counter to be present is pretty significant to me.

Aldaron said:
<usage stats showing that #of OU pokemon is largely unaffected>
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As I, among others, have already stated, this is almost completely irrelevant. Deoxys-Speed *does* have counters, nobody is denying that. The argument against D-S is that it makes certain combinations of pokemon less desirable to use because of the fact (which you pointed out) that you need a pokemon that can weather its attacks because revenge killing it is next to impossible. The list of OU pokemon isn't hampered because those pokemon are good enough to use on their own.

Aldaron said:
As for that first point...ugh. We can't definitively "prove" it either way, so I'll have to stick to my general perceptions, which probably won't mean anything to the people who already have ingrained their general perceptions into their minds (IPL, Jrrrrrrr, Jabba and company). I mean, look at many of the top teams on the ShoddyBattle ladder right now: Dormin, Mystica, Unideal, Aldaron, SNES, Taylor and others are using extraordinarily offensive teams...and using them to great success. I can't speak for the others, but I used pretty much pure offense when laddering. The others may have had one or two defensive Pokemon (but as far as I can recall, having Bronzong or Shuckle on an offensive team is nothing new), but they were battling using offensive teams nonetheless.
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It's funny that you seem angry that I have "ingrained perceptions", when you are clearly doing the same thing. This is a debate, silly :P

Offensive teams do have one tool to help against D-S: priority moves. However, most of these are weak and will not OHKO Deoxys-Speed, turning the match into a guessing game until Sand/Life Orb/TSpikes etc whittle away at D-S' HP (assuming these are all in play) and putting it into killing range by the priority moves that all have 80 BP or less. You have to predict around its attacks, the only way to rely on moves like this is to guess correctly multiple times in a row to have a chance of beating it. Sure it can be done, but when you have to dance around it like that, D-S has already done its job. Plus, if you do that then you can still be beaten by the Cosmic Power + Recover sets.

I also used pure offense when laddering. There is room for defensive pokemon on teams with large amounts of offense, but making that room requires quite a bit of changing around. Hipmonlee explains this very well:

Hipmonlee said:
It's one pokemon that replaces many. I doesnt so much beat choice scarf as make it utterly redundant. Other mixed sweepers are no where near as good as deoxys and certainly none of them have the versatility to run a spikes set.

Also you are cheating Obi, there are hundreds of ways of beating clefable. If it has taunt then it only has one attack and you should be able to stall it easily. If not you can roar, whirlwind, stat up against it, psych-up, encore, use a fighting type. All of these are common and practical in stall teams. Unlike in an offense based team where having a defensive pokemon can allow switches which, when your team is not designed with countering pokemon in mind, can be devastating. Granted a pokemon can always switch as a pokemon faints, but that implies you have already killed a pokemon, and so you can afford to make a sacrifice. The problem with Deoxys is that if you sacrifice against it, you still need a counter, because it is so damn fast, and bulky and able to hit you damn hard.

Have a nice day.
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So far, what I've seen is that the only argument for keeping D-S in OU is that "it has counters" when that clearly isn't the point. Kyogre also has counters.

Sure, we could all use Bronzong/Jirachi/Cresselia to help with a weakness to D-S, but those counters are usually anathema to offense. Sure, Bronzong is not always bad on an offensive team, but if you're using it to counter D-S then you can't use it to boom or counter much else which to me detracts from the usefulness of it altogether. We could force every team to use Ludicolo so that Kyogre looks much better in OU, but Ludicolo is anathema to "good" teams just like using one of D-S' counters is to offensive teams.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
So far, what I've seen is that the only argument for keeping D-S in OU is that "it has counters" when that clearly isn't the point. Kyogre also has counters.
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I agree with you for that. However, do note that the bigger arguments causing people to call it OU are its semi-above-average offensive stats, difficulty of switching in, and that it really needs to hits super-effective in order to get a OHKO (unless it's using Psycho Boost, which is pretty deadly in itself).

The "it has counters" statement isn't that bad of an argument, even if it is one of the few. Having no counters seems to be one of the huge reasons for people wanting Wobbuffet and Garchomp kicked out. Steel/Psychics aren't the only counters out there either. There's also Scizor, Forretress and Dusknoir in OU (CB Dusknoir's one of the few things that can revenge-kill it as well, OHKOing with Shadow Sneak). The big problem is that most of its other counters aren't even OU. A lot of them, like Lanturn, Drapion, Spiritomb and Ampharos are either BL or UU, which I guess people don't really like having to resort to.

This isn't directed at anyone, but I'd like to offer my take on DX-S and the offensive team argument, since I'm fairly neutral on it now. These points are just for people to consider whether DX-S and his advantage against fast, frail offensive teams is good or bad.

In my opinion, DX-S making offensive teams a lot easier to take down is something that can be interpreted from two different sides.

There's obviously the side that's actually using them, which is most likely dominating the match until DX-S shows up, and they'd most likely argue that DX-S is just a pain in the ass to deal with. In many cases, they would most likely say this about Blissey if they were using a special-based team, or Cresselia if they were using a team of mixed sweepers.

However, there's also the side that actually has to face the offensive team (the user of DX-S), and they'd most likely want to argue that offensive teams are hard as hell to beat when in the hands of an experienced player, and that DX-S is helping to prevent those kinds of teams from dominating the game. In opposition to the offensive team user, it can be argued from their point of view that were it not for Blissey, special attackers would run wild, while without Cresselia, mixed attackers would run wild.

My point is, that while some people may feel that Deoxys-S is cheap, and while this prove true in many situations (though it does take a lot of skill to use well), it is also arguable that it prevents offensive teams from being completely dominant. Let's face it, it's no coincidence that a majority of the top teams are offensive. Those kinds of teams are just that good, and are really hard to beat if you make any mistakes, and now they finally have an answer.

The questions however, are does this promote a balance between offensive and defensive team, since DX-S can't stop both kinds? Also, can't it simply mean using bulkier/slower, but very powerful pokemon on offensive teams as opposed to fast/frail and powerful pokemon all the time?

Those are just some points to consider about DX-S and the offensive team situation, I just wanted to show the pros of this situation to compliment the cons that were already mentioned in the thread. I suppose that it is very important to think of what it would be like if DX-S were top 10, just doing what it does now.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
Tyraniboah in advance is much, much different than D-S in d/p. Boah did dominate stall teams in a similar fashion to how D-S dominates offense, but the reason why this comparison is inaccurate is because of the simple fact that advance stall never died. If you tried using Tyraniboah against a current adv stall team, it would not work as you described it working in the past. Stall teams can keep stalling even against arguably the best stall-buster in pokemon history. Things like Light Screen Zapdos, RestTalk Swampert, etc exist and can be put into a stall team without compromising the "flow" of a team. Using Bronzong or Cresselia on a team that focuses primarily on revenge killing and resistances to counter things does change the nature of a team. Now, if I want to use offense, I HAVE to use Bronzong without Explosion, Pursuit Metagross or Wish Jirachi to handle D-S, or else I won't have much of a chance of beating it without relying on Life Orb recoil (which turns countering it into a guessing game, as I'll outline later in this post). Unlike adv stall when Boah was created, d/p "pure offense" (as Aldaron put it) won't be able to revive itself with the allowance of D-S in OU.
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You realize that you're coming off as quite the fortune teller here, right? To say that "advance stall never died" is to imply the contrapositive "dp offense will stay dead", as if we are many metagames removed from when Deoxys-S first came on to the scene. The stall Advance metagame raged raged on for a good half year or longer before chaos and I came up with Boah. Had it not been for our concerted efforts to create complete analyses for all the Advance pokemon, neither we nor anyone else may have stumbled upon this set for months afterwards, if ever. You and everyone else need to either give it a little more time before proclaiming it's the end of the offense world or start thinking of other ways to promote the "bulky offense" trend that's been in the making the last 2-3 months

And regardless, back to the point: how does this phenomenon by itself indicate Deoxys-S's uberness. It may be, but not because it "100% beats offense" (this is an exaggeration) or puts an end to Choice Scarf (this may not be inherently bad).
 
no one has commented on my point that if you use DX-S and magnezone on the same team its only OU true counters become cresselia and spiritomb
 
And Spiritomb fell to BL, lol. However, assuming Magnezone with it has all kinds of other consequences and it turns into "Pokemon pair beats Pokemon team with Magnet Pull" so I don't think such a notion is going to change anything in this debate.
 
i'm not the most well-known battler, usually i just watch, but when i do use deoxys, or face one, i never find it hard to take down, even if its defensively ev-ed. honestly, outside revenge killing weak pokes it doesnt have the offensive power to do too much. it's a great poke, definitely, but it's not too strong for ou. i never have trouble either countering it, and when i use it against decent opponents, it rarely is gamebreaking.

it's no worse than gengar or garchomp. until those are uber, this is still OU.
 
I'm voting uber. It's speed and type coverage is too ridiculous too allow in OU. It's the best late-game sweeper, and it can nab a super-effective hit on almost everything in the game. It revenge-kills everything because to even begin to think of outspeeding it you need a boosting nature, 90+ base speed, and a Choice Scarf. It can very easily outspeed and destroy everything with just four moves, and has no trouble running over offensive teams, and beats stall with its eyes closed unless they happen to pack one or two certain Pokemon.
 
umbarsc said:
I'm voting uber. It's speed and type coverage is too ridiculous too allow in OU. It's the best late-game sweeper, and it can nab a super-effective hit on almost everything in the game. It revenge-kills everything because to even begin to think of outspeeding it you need a boosting nature, 90+ base speed, and a Choice Scarf. It can very easily outspeed and destroy everything with just four moves, and has no trouble running over offensive teams, and beats stall with its eyes closed unless they happen to pack one or two certain Pokemon.
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Can you explain how it beats stall with its eyes closed? I know that it has the fast Taunt, but it's not as if many of the stall pokemon are very fast anyway, so that doesn't make DX-S very special at beating stalling pokemon.
 
I counted up to this point, 14-11 in favor of OU. I'm going to go with the, for lack of a better word, minority and say it should be uber. It's arguably the best revenge killer in OU; despite its average offenses, it has an awesome movepool and does not need to be restricted by choice scarf. I think people are right in saying that it does put a hamper on offensive teams, which imo is a bad thing. Then it can also perform as an incredible stalling machine, coupled with toxic spikes its pretty formidable. Hell, I've seen people use it like both, kinda like a really fast starmie with taunt or another offensive move instead of rapid spin and pressure. It doesn't seem very counterable either, like Bologo said apparently a lot of its counters aren't OU. There are ways of getting around it, but that could be said for some uber pokemon as well, and its not enough for me to want it to stay in OU.

EDIT: Ok I think it's 13-15 now? Everyone seemed to have different counts...
 
I'm voting OU. I've faced Deoxys-S in every other battle and not once have I had any trouble dealing with it. Anything can sweep late game and Deoxys-S isn't any different. It's no more broken than say Garchomp.
 
Its type coverage means it rips apart most defensive stallish Pokemon. The only Pokemon that could counter it that could be useful on a stall team are Jirachi, Bronzong, and Spiritomb.
 
Voting Deoxys-S as uber. Being able to outspeed many neutral natured scarfers and being able to revenge kill them off easily is a force to be reckoned with.

With it's movepool almost as far as the horizon, it can taunt walls disabling them from status-ing Deoxys-S and adding to it's bulk via Cosmic Power really just decimates unprepared teams and by no means should we be centralising and using positive natured scarfers like Timid ScarfGar.

It's one thing to be able to add to it's defenses and still have amazing speed, it's another thing to do that, and recover off damage. Stick in it's ability and you have one hell of a staller.
 
umbarsc said:
Its type coverage means it rips apart most defensive stallish Pokemon. The only Pokemon that could counter it that could be useful on a stall team are Jirachi, Bronzong, and Spiritomb.
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A lot of defensive stall pokemon use statusing moves, and pretty much every status effect is terrible news for Deoxys-S unfortunately. Thunder Wave takes away the only thing good about him, Sleep makes him sleep (obviously) same with Freeze, and Burn means he's walled by Blissey. Also, a lot of defensive pokemon can stand a super-effective hit or two and kill him. Really, it's pretty hard for him to do over 50% to a lot of the defensive pokemon out there, but it's really not hard for them to do over 50% to him. The only reason its type coverage destroys offensive teams is because they seem to be famous for having paper-thin defenses, which means that they can't take a SE hit, but stall teams can.

I'm not trying to change your vote at all, just in case you were wondering, I just wanted to hear your explanation of how it can beat stall, because that point hasn't been brought up, and I don't really agree with your reasoning.
 
I vote it as uber. It promotes conformity, in a way. For example, it absolutely kills Scarfers (barring a few, I believe Timid ScarfGar outspeeds it).

I think this quote from Hipmonlee summarizes my feelings exactly.

It's one pokemon that replaces many.
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Voting Deoxys-S as OU/Allowed for now. Is one of the, if not the best current OU pokemon in my opinion and is often the bane of offensive teams lacking say... Metagross. I do believe that it should be allowed though, because it does have it's fair share of counters. It is a powerful force that should always be considered in team building, but stacking up on counters is not needed like say, against Garchomp. It can totally clean up late game and does making scarfing a little less viable, but I think he's fine. The cosmic power set in my opinion is the hardest to deal with, as with Pressure, many teams can get outstalled by the fastest recover in the game, but even this can be beaten.
 
I'll have to vote Deoxys-S is OU. I'm still kind of on the fence, but just because something forces some metagame change doesn't make it Uber. And something finally stops Scarfed Pokemon. The numbers don't show signs of excessive dominance, although statistics can be deceiving. I haven't noticed many complaints about it, at least not nearly as many as there were for Wobbuffet. In terms of late-game sweeping, I don't see how it's any different from Dragonite or Garchomp sweeping at the end of a game. If you reserve it for the end, you're essentially playing 5-6 for the majority of the match. Like Obi said, its impact on offensive teams is like that of CM Clefable on stall teams, and I don't see Clefable getting banned.
 
People mention that Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross, etc. all counter Deoxys-S while this is true in many cases to the standard set, all of those are countered by Taunt / Cosmic Power / Recover / Night Shade (Seismic Toss) effortlessly; while that set does open up the chance for other Pokemon to counter, notably Heracross and Tyranitar, by no means can Deoxys-S be countered by a single Pokemon with all of its options. Also one must consider the other deviant user that may use Fire Punch or HP Fire over one of Deoxys' standard moves which also causes many of the Steel Pokemon to be easily defeated afterwards.

With its Speed outclassing near everything with a relatively small amount small amount of Speed EVs, making many Scarfers greatly outclassed by the freedom Deoxys-E brings. With its exaggerated Speed, many Pokemon must go to great lengths to become useful using Choice Scarf such as Timid Gengar or they simply die out due to lack of usefulness and inferiority, a prime example of this could be Heatran or Metagross. While Deoxys-E may not have the stellar Attacking stats of Garchomp, it more then makes up for that when one factors in Life Orb, which increase its overall attacking stats pass 375, or for a base stat comparison slightly above 120, which is nothing to scoff at.

While statistics may not show that Deoxys-E is being used as often, I believe it has, as several as said, an impact leading to the "Bulky" teams that now litter OU. With it being able to remove an entire variation of play from the metagame, the pure offensive approach with little effort, I firmly believe that Deoxys-E is Uber.
 
i would just like to say that the 5 vs 6 argument is worthless to me as it is never a good idea to show your opponent all 6 of your pokemon, ever. Doing so will just give them the information they need to determine how to beat you.
 
I've been following this debate very closely and most of the things I have to say have been said but I want to throw my two cents in here.

When I think something should be banned to ubers I think of a Pokemon that has no counters, or a small number of them. Of course other things do apply, since Garchomp doesn't have a counter and its OU (for now) but that is what I hold in the highest of regard.

Deoxys-S has counters. Duskinor and Spiritomb handle the Mixed sets well with there priority moves that hit it SE. Duskinor has to be weary of Shaddow Ball, but CB Shadow Sneak Duskinor will alway beat it. Just about all the Steel's in OU can counter it as well with the exception of Scizor. I tryed making practical use out of Fire Punch on Deoxys, but Bronzong was only 3hko'd by it and could Gyroball him into oblivion. Metagross and Jirachi take the hits even better of course and have the ability to Reflect or just destroy it if you Metagross. Lucario and Garchomp are harder to counter than this thing. It doesn't even have stat upers to boost its 95 base attack stats which means things like Infernape, Lucario, and even Dragonite can hit harder as mixed sweepers.

Deoxys doesn't have to power to OHKO things like other mixed sweepers or super fast poke, its going to help balance out OU by slowing down Garchomp (bold statement I know), and its counter-able.

I'm surprising my self here, but this thing is OU to me, not uber.
 
Ok. I just went to view new posts, saw this thread and alike posts that just said for aforementioned reasons etc. So that would be my reason for my post and missing the sticky.

Well
I've been using D-S since the day it was unbanned on virtually all of my teams. I think he is great, top OU material, but definitely not uber. He can be countered. By a few pokemon. Sure he 'can run HP Ground/Fire move and eliminate counters' but so can Garchomp, Lucario etc. And they do it much better. There are no statistics to suggest he is changing the metagame and I think it's better for it. I don't mind him at all in OU. And tbh a pokemon that forces offensive teams to be less offensive to not risk sweep, isn't a bad thing.

Blahh. Statistics. Experience with him etc. leads me to firmly believe he is OU.

There.
 
I believe that Deoxys S should stay in OU for the time being.


Honestly I'm not really strongly for or against him in OU as he can be countered and won't just kill every wall flat out. I don't think he'd destroy the metagame if left in, but I don't think he's really doing it any good. I don't think that he's killing any strategy 100% on his own though, I think that Wobby also had a big part in the decline of the offensive team. I've got fairly limited experience with Deoxys, however when I used him I found that he was a very powerful lead, destroying everything but Bronzong (which may have a small part in his continuous popularity) with ease. He's also a superb revenge killer for fairly obvious reasons, and second to none as a zero setup cleanup sweeper. Then again, you can say much of the same of Gengar.

But most importantly, he has counters. His attack/sp.atk ratings are mediocre at best, I believe they're close to those of Weezing at 95 each, he's not difficult to wall. Cresselia and Bronzong are both fairly common and will stop most sets cold in their tracks. He will generally only run through a team once his counters have been rooted out and removed, which can really be said of any sweeper in OU. His defenses are mediocre unless you're running the cosmic power set, even then he is terribly vulnerable to status moves, especially thunder wave. I know you could say that of any speed based sweeper, but it holds doubly true for Deoxys. His only appeal over the more powerful speed sweepers is his pure speed, without that he might as well be a more fragile slower Weezing.
 
i believe that deoxys speed form should be UBER. He completely destroys frail, fast pokemon and also outspeeds and kills most scarfers. It is because of this that the metagame has shifted towards a stallish bulky-sweeper type of metagame where more defensive pokemon such as celebi, heatran, and zapdos and getting more and more used every month.

I feel that deoxys is centralizing the metagame towards defense which is limiting the effectiveness of offensive teams (let's assume wobboffet will be banned and TAY's team will not longer be possible). By severly weakingeng the potency of offensive teams deoxys has centralized the metagame and that is why i think he should be banned
 
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