Not Uber. Amazing speed is offset by terrible HP, mediocre attacking and defending stats. A great movepool, sure, but what can it really do? It does not pose an extreme threat as a Choice Specs user, and it is at best a utility pokemon. Messing up your typical Choice Scarf users adds diversity to the metagame, creating new important speed numbers to play around with, allowing for more different speed strategies. No overcentralization has occurred, in terms of what we're using now to beat him compared to what we were using while he was Uber.
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***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
- Start date
- Status
Well, I haven't been here long enough to vote, but I want to share my two cents anyway on why I feel it should be moved back to ubers.
The argument that status makes him useless is completely irrelevant. Does that fact that Garchomp is screwed by Will-o-Wisp make it any less deadly? Pretty much anything can be messed up by the right status. By that logic Groudon could come down to OU. After all, burns totally wreck it, right? Taunt gets around T-Wave anyway, and a smart player will not leave Deoxys without Taunt against something that can paralyze it if it can't KO it.
It's attack stats aren't astronomical, true. It's not going to OHKO a lot. However, that's not it's job. It's an amazing late-game sweeper because once everything has been worn down nothing can stop it. It's way too fast for anything but the fastest Scarfers to hit. With such a wide movepool, it can hit most of the game's major threats for SE damag. It may not be threatening to your full HP Starmie, but what about 75%? 50%? This thing has enough speed to effortlessly turn a match around once the enemy team has been softened up a bit simply because it will hit for SE damage before you can touch it, and can Taunt away any attempt to hinder it by status, as I covered earlier. Most Pokemon who achieve extremely high speed like this need to have a speed nature and a Scarf, restricting their attacks and preventing a clean sweep. Deoxys gets this speed with relatively few EVs and is free to equip a Life Orb to stack it's damage and switch up it's attacks. It's too much of a late-game monster, and that's assuming the Cosmic Power set is not in play.
It can be countered, yes. However, the counters listed here are almost always the same things. Jirachi, Metagross, and Bronzong are the most common. Doesn't the fact that it takes such specific types to counter him ring any alarm bells? If you HAVE to have certain Pokemon to counter it, doesn't that show that a Pokemon is too much? Yes, it can be stopped by some other walls as well. However, everything else gets shredded late game. And it's not like it has to stay in on those walls, either. It's a team of six after all.It can simply let something else break your wall and then it can proceed with it's killing spree unhindered. Every Pokemon can be countered in some way. What needs to be measured is how much it devastates compared to how much counters it. Simply put, I feel not enough can safely counter it late game to allow it to stay in this environment.
The argument that status makes him useless is completely irrelevant. Does that fact that Garchomp is screwed by Will-o-Wisp make it any less deadly? Pretty much anything can be messed up by the right status. By that logic Groudon could come down to OU. After all, burns totally wreck it, right? Taunt gets around T-Wave anyway, and a smart player will not leave Deoxys without Taunt against something that can paralyze it if it can't KO it.
It's attack stats aren't astronomical, true. It's not going to OHKO a lot. However, that's not it's job. It's an amazing late-game sweeper because once everything has been worn down nothing can stop it. It's way too fast for anything but the fastest Scarfers to hit. With such a wide movepool, it can hit most of the game's major threats for SE damag. It may not be threatening to your full HP Starmie, but what about 75%? 50%? This thing has enough speed to effortlessly turn a match around once the enemy team has been softened up a bit simply because it will hit for SE damage before you can touch it, and can Taunt away any attempt to hinder it by status, as I covered earlier. Most Pokemon who achieve extremely high speed like this need to have a speed nature and a Scarf, restricting their attacks and preventing a clean sweep. Deoxys gets this speed with relatively few EVs and is free to equip a Life Orb to stack it's damage and switch up it's attacks. It's too much of a late-game monster, and that's assuming the Cosmic Power set is not in play.
It can be countered, yes. However, the counters listed here are almost always the same things. Jirachi, Metagross, and Bronzong are the most common. Doesn't the fact that it takes such specific types to counter him ring any alarm bells? If you HAVE to have certain Pokemon to counter it, doesn't that show that a Pokemon is too much? Yes, it can be stopped by some other walls as well. However, everything else gets shredded late game. And it's not like it has to stay in on those walls, either. It's a team of six after all.It can simply let something else break your wall and then it can proceed with it's killing spree unhindered. Every Pokemon can be countered in some way. What needs to be measured is how much it devastates compared to how much counters it. Simply put, I feel not enough can safely counter it late game to allow it to stay in this environment.
I say Uber. Sure he cant take a hit ever, but all somone has to do is weaken a person's team and then sweep up. There are only few pokemon that normally do that (infernape for example) but if you are lucky you can out speed it with somehting. Nothing can outspeed Deoxys-S on the first turn. Its just obnoxious and Id rather not see it in OU. You have to have too specific of a team to counter it and that makes it broken.
This was just posted in the Policy Review forum and I'm quoting it because I both entirely agree that this is what the goal of the OU tier should be, and I want to use it as my reasoning for voting uber for Deoxys-S.imperfectluck said:
"5 sweepers + bulky attacker that can deal with DeoE" most likely being the "ceiling" in terms of how offensive I can make my team does not sound appealing, I want that ceiling to be all-out offense just like it's possible to make a 100% stall-based team without resorting to a "stall and force an opening to set up for Garchomp/T-tar/Gyarados sweep" strategy. A lot of people can say that offense is already very popular in DP, and that a lot of current top 10 ladder teams are offensive (I think this was stated in Policy Review as well), but I'd like to know how many of those teams were actually pure 100% offensive teams and not just 5 sweepers, or 4 or 3 sweepers, and the rest being Bronzong or Metagross or Cresselia or whatever either helping to set up for a sweep, or providing insurance against deoxys.
Basically a lot of people see Deoxys-S as being a good way to combat the offense-oriented metagame and therefore balance things out, but I disagree; all Deoxys does is restrict the amount of ways in which we can sweep, and therefore lowers the amount of options available in OU, further centralizing the metagame. If you're looking to "weaken offense," I don't believe keeping Deoxys-S OU is the right way to do it.
I guess you can make the argument that the metagame was simply destined to end up "bulky offense" with or without Deoxys, to me that screams testing more than anything else but right now I'm extremely skeptical that it really ended up that way "coincidentally" right after a pokemon perfectly designed to outspeed every frail sweeper in the game came into play.
This is what I hate about Deoxys-S
Does it really matter if Deoxys is weak defensively when he doesn't have to spend any EVs in speed and can put them wherever he wants? Gengar has to have a plus speed nature, 252 speed evs and a choice item just to (possibly) outspeed him.
He can increase both defenses simultaneously, taunt to prevent status and then recover off any damage. Oh and he has pressure. You could try and stall him out if he wasn't just going to taunt you anways. I hope your oppenent hasn't laid any kind spikes yet.
After partaking in and viewing battles which included Deoxys-S I vote uber.
I don't want to get sidetracked by talking about non existant pokemon but can you imagine if another pokemon could "reach the attack power of a pokemon with base 130 attack and a positive nature with 0 EVs in attack"?analysis said:
Does it really matter if Deoxys is weak defensively when he doesn't have to spend any EVs in speed and can put them wherever he wants? Gengar has to have a plus speed nature, 252 speed evs and a choice item just to (possibly) outspeed him.
He can increase both defenses simultaneously, taunt to prevent status and then recover off any damage. Oh and he has pressure. You could try and stall him out if he wasn't just going to taunt you anways. I hope your oppenent hasn't laid any kind spikes yet.
After partaking in and viewing battles which included Deoxys-S I vote uber.
Pressure doesn't affect moves targeted at the user, such as recovery. Not to say he can't Taunt a Bliss/Cress trying to recover against him, though.
At this time I don't have an opinion on Deo-E, so I'm not going to vote right now. It's never been a threat to my team particularly, but I was unlucky enough to be using a gimmicy all-offense team (Infernape, Gyarados, Gengar, Breloom, 2 pokes I don't remember), and got pretty much 6-0ed by it by itself.
At this time I don't have an opinion on Deo-E, so I'm not going to vote right now. It's never been a threat to my team particularly, but I was unlucky enough to be using a gimmicy all-offense team (Infernape, Gyarados, Gengar, Breloom, 2 pokes I don't remember), and got pretty much 6-0ed by it by itself.
Syberia said:
The thing is, teams like that aren't "gimmicky" at all, and Deoxys-S renders them almost completely usless, as you experienced first hand.
Deoxys-S takes out an entire type of team, which is what makes it so overpowered. IPL, jrrrrrr, Jabba and others have said this time and time again.
No, I'm not making this post completely to counter that statement you've made, but I've used that as a lead in for this post.
That is a completely overgeneralizing and judgmental statement to make. You're assuming that your team can successfully take out any specific counters that are necessary in the first place, and that works with ANY POKEMON.
What do I feel Deoxys-E brings to the table? It brings something no other Pokemon brings. Are we really satisfied with the entire speed tiers being about outspeeding base 130s or Scarfed Heracross? Since Deoxys-E lacks power considerably more than most Pokemon, it has to rely entirely on type coverage, and since no moveset is going to hit everything SE, you're going to have trouble making one that will consistently sweep the floor with everything you fight. (read: impossible)
Deoxys requires players to strategically sit down and think about a way to take care of something faster, because if you're going to get swept by Deoxys, what are you going to do against a Mixed Blaziken that just used Agility?
Of course, the argument is that Deoxys doesn't need any item or specific turn to stat up, since it's already at that insane speed, and it can work on its power instead by using Life orb or expert belt. Of course, expert belt cuts your sweeping ability severely. If your opponent is not packing the specific types you're planning to take down with your type coverage, I'm sorry, but you're not going to do much, so you almost have to resort to using Life Orb, which will wear you down alongside possible spikes/SR and sandstorm, the former being something that almost all competitive teams will carry, and a high priority attack will take you out immediately. Walls can have a tough time switching in to take two hits if they get outpredicted, but if Deoxys has been worn down a slight bit, a bulkier Pokemon carrying a high priority attack can take it down immediately. Considering Lucario, arguably the most common carrier of a high priority attack, is out there a lot and can switch into any attacks but superpower fairly safely (psychic does 74.11% - 87.23%), it can choose between predicting a switch to Swords Dance up, possibly offering a sweep, or just extremespeeding off the bat to kill.
What I'm saying is, Deoxys doesn't cause the game to be more about stalling, but it encourages teams to find more efficient ways to beat counters and have a fun match all the same. I realized pretty soon after I started competitive battling months back that the best way to counter fast Pokemon was not to try to just get as fast as you can to outspeed, because there's almost always going to be something that can outspeed you. Your best option is to pack bulkier sweepers; pack priority attacks.
The term "mixed sweeper" almost seems like an awful generalization to use on Deoxys. To me, as with most other "mixed sweepers", it plays out mostly in the fact that it has a move to kill Blissey, and then it tries to kill the rest of your team. If it has to come down to 1 v 1, Blissey can easily stay in on you and take your superpower, then thunderwave you. Blissey switches out to something to take your superpower, and you're already down at least 20%, and you're paralyzed. Sure, Blissey is going to be annoying to get in later if SR is up, but it's not incredibly hard to get a softboil in on blissey while something assaults you with special attacks.
I believe I've brought this on far longer than I wanted to, and I've probably done a horrible job at explaining my point due to the fact that I.. really need to go to sleep. I apologize if my argument came out like crap.
There are key differences here.
1.) Deoxys-S requires no set up turn, it comes in ready to go.
2.) Blaziken does not have the movepool to compete on the same level as Deoxys-S
3.) To outspeed Deoxys-S/random choice scarfers, Blaziken has to invest in quite a few speed EV's, which leaves its attacking stats somewhat crippled. Deoxys-S does not have this problem.
Code:
350 attack vs 216 defense, 80 power(*1.3), 241 max HP: 50.21% - 59.34%
394*1.5 attack vs 226 defense, 40 power(*1.5), 241 max HP: 46.89% - 55.19%That is Lucario's Extremespeed, CB Mamoswines Ice Shard, the two most common priority moves (and strongest) in OU. Neither have a definate chance of even 2HKOing Deoxys-S. It doesn't have the paper thin defenses that you claim it does.
That is your opinion. Before Deoxys-S was brought down, teams that relied on resistances to play that weren't full of bulky sweepers were very viable as a style of team and a style of play. You say it right here in this paragraph, although indirectly. Deoxys-S is forcing the style of play away from these once viable teams, to bulky offense (this is mostly my opinion, but any competitave battler knows that this is how the metagame has been shifting since feburary).
So is eliminating an entire style of team/play enough to ban Deoxys-S?
I believe he means, "if your team can't handle Deoxys-S, then how is it supposed to deal with a +2 speed Blaziken?"
Poor, POOR, analogy considering most of Deoxys E's counters is steel type anyway but we understand your point!
The answer to your question anyway is "Blaziken doesn't have a crazy movepool that hits most of the standard metagame for SE damage"
My bad on not clarifying completely what I meant with the Blaziken bit. I didn't mean what you, using Deoxys, are going to use against Blaziken. I meant that, if your team is really going to get swept by speed form, then what are you going to do against Agility-Blaziken? Get swept, most likely. I was just using it as a quick example; it came to mind.
I have to admit, making that entire argument, looking into various counters, I realized how flawed I possibly could have been in my initial decision to vote to keep it in OU, but I don't see how all this theorymon has been dismissing what I've always seen every time I've fought it; it doesn't cause that huge of a threat.
The high priority bit was perhaps a complete mishap on my part, as I didn't actually evolve my statement far enough to get my intended point across. Perhaps I was assuming the life orb recoil + any other various bits of damage that you may have suffered were going to be there. Is it really so hard to wear it down enough, though, or to make it blow its defenses with a superpower? Often it will be required to kill off its own defense with superpower, and it won't even net itself a KO, meaning it doesn't have to be revenge killed. Of course, a proper user will wait until late game to abuse Deoxys at all, and this is considering you can wear your opponent down enough to where it actually can sweep a team that has all its Pokemon down to at least around half. This is considering you can get this accomplished while you're fighting 5-6 the entire game you need to keep it hidden. This is why I most often see Deoxys on stall teams. It doesn't seem like stall teams are expressly out there to counter deoxys, but to work WITH deoxys, but you can just as easily use another good late game sweeper on a stall team and have it work fine, one that doesn't need to worry about speed tiers even like Curseswine or Extreme killer lucario. If you've let your opponent set up, Deoxys will go down like any other Pokemon, just because you've worked so hard the whole game to keep it hidden that you didn't have the proper Pokemon to work to stop this specific Poke that could murder your team.
I thought about your last statement for a bit, and at first I thought that you may be correct, but after thinking about it again, I've decided that it's really not that centralizing. If you're going to pack a team of all sweepers without walls, you'll very likely get swept fairly easily by something that boosts its speed anyway, given that you are outpredicted in the process, and Deoxys has the same problem of being outpredicted and simply wasting its HP by means of life orb.
I'm starting to get wishywashy with my own arguments, so this is going to be my last statement on the matter. From now on, I'm going to observe, and if I feel it necessary, I will change my vote, as the entire discussion has opened my eyes to seeing both sides very clearly.
I have to admit, making that entire argument, looking into various counters, I realized how flawed I possibly could have been in my initial decision to vote to keep it in OU, but I don't see how all this theorymon has been dismissing what I've always seen every time I've fought it; it doesn't cause that huge of a threat.
The high priority bit was perhaps a complete mishap on my part, as I didn't actually evolve my statement far enough to get my intended point across. Perhaps I was assuming the life orb recoil + any other various bits of damage that you may have suffered were going to be there. Is it really so hard to wear it down enough, though, or to make it blow its defenses with a superpower? Often it will be required to kill off its own defense with superpower, and it won't even net itself a KO, meaning it doesn't have to be revenge killed. Of course, a proper user will wait until late game to abuse Deoxys at all, and this is considering you can wear your opponent down enough to where it actually can sweep a team that has all its Pokemon down to at least around half. This is considering you can get this accomplished while you're fighting 5-6 the entire game you need to keep it hidden. This is why I most often see Deoxys on stall teams. It doesn't seem like stall teams are expressly out there to counter deoxys, but to work WITH deoxys, but you can just as easily use another good late game sweeper on a stall team and have it work fine, one that doesn't need to worry about speed tiers even like Curseswine or Extreme killer lucario. If you've let your opponent set up, Deoxys will go down like any other Pokemon, just because you've worked so hard the whole game to keep it hidden that you didn't have the proper Pokemon to work to stop this specific Poke that could murder your team.
I thought about your last statement for a bit, and at first I thought that you may be correct, but after thinking about it again, I've decided that it's really not that centralizing. If you're going to pack a team of all sweepers without walls, you'll very likely get swept fairly easily by something that boosts its speed anyway, given that you are outpredicted in the process, and Deoxys has the same problem of being outpredicted and simply wasting its HP by means of life orb.
I'm starting to get wishywashy with my own arguments, so this is going to be my last statement on the matter. From now on, I'm going to observe, and if I feel it necessary, I will change my vote, as the entire discussion has opened my eyes to seeing both sides very clearly.
I'm assuming you were referring to my wallbreaker statement about countering things that Deoxys can't sweep. As such, I feel that's far from a generalization, since every team should have at least one Pokemon capable of getting around the common walls. Like i said, it's a team of six.
You just outlined the whole problem with Deoxys-E. It's outrunning the fastest OU has to offer with little effort whatsoever. Most Pokemon who want to outspeed everything for a sweep require a Choice Scarf, and are extremely limited by it. Deoxys-E outspeeds almost everything, even with a Scarf. It's no longer about "speed tiers", where you need to be aware of how fast your counters can be and try to outspeed them. As for relying on type coverage, Deoxys-E has an absolutely amazing movepool, with the basic set having no trouble hitting most of the OU metagame for SE damage. But, of course, it's not about sweeping teams in the manner or Garchomp or Lucario. It's about coming in after they have been weakened and mauling them without getting touched.
I PHaze it. Simple. To pack Agility it had to remove an offensive attack, lowering it's coverage, and allowing more possible safe switch-ins. Same goes with Rock Polish. Scarf is less threatening, since good prediction can make the sole attack they are allowed useless. D-E gets the advantages without the limitations.
Expert Belt doesn't cut into sweeping as much as you seem to think. D-E's movepool lets it hit most types in the game for SE damage, much in the manner of Electivire. As for priority attacks, yes, they can bring down a weakened D-E. However, how many Pokemon have reliable priority attacks? I can think of Mamoswine, Lucario, Arcanine, Dusknoir and Weavile. You seem to think D-E is much more frail than it actually is. I'm pretty sure it can survive a hit from most of them, and then it can destroy all but Arcanine and Dusknoir with Superpower. If priority attacks are pretty much required to even get a hit in, doesn't that prove that it's too much by forcing you to adopt certain tactics on your team just to counter it?
Being forced to pack bulkier sweepers is a big argument against D-E. The offensive sweeper style of play is essentially eliminated by D-E. It was previously a perfectly viable way to play. And we've already established the priority attacks aren't even a sure thing.
I realized my mistake and edited my post with the key differences between your example and Deoxys-S
You don't have to keep Deoxys-S hidden at all. Why wouldn't it function as well if you showed it earlier in the battle?
Again, why do you have to keep Deoxys-S hidden?
I never said that it was centralizing anywhere. I said that I think it takes away what once was a very viable form of play. I'm going to refute the bolded part of your post because it's very untrue. Myself, along with others, have used teams without very defensive pokemon, and been very successful with them.
Saying that you can outpredict Deoxys-S and waste its HP via Life Orb is a statement that shouldn't be used in this arguement. If you can predict, what stops your opponent from predicting? And if you predict your opponent is predicting, only they predict that you don't predict that and blah blah, it can go on forever. Basically, it's just going to turn into a guessing game.
really i don't get the reasoning behind some votes, reason like makes choice scarfer obsolete makes me wonder how much thought was put behind that vote.
Anyway i vote for deoxys-s to be not uber, usage statistic shows he's not too much used despite the fact os terribly broken as some people claim, also while he can outspeed almost anything he can't exploit any particular resistance, he has a wonderful movepool but can't do anything at once and there are already counters to it.
This being said nothing stop us from banning him later if some worthy proof show up.
Also i would like to know what would happen if garchomp was captured on an island like some legendary... many reason behind the ban votes are good/perfect coverage and bulkyness/speed.
Anyway i vote for deoxys-s to be not uber, usage statistic shows he's not too much used despite the fact os terribly broken as some people claim, also while he can outspeed almost anything he can't exploit any particular resistance, he has a wonderful movepool but can't do anything at once and there are already counters to it.
This being said nothing stop us from banning him later if some worthy proof show up.
Also i would like to know what would happen if garchomp was captured on an island like some legendary... many reason behind the ban votes are good/perfect coverage and bulkyness/speed.
I vote Deoxys-S to be Uber.
In my experiences with using and playing against Deoxys-S on Shoddybattle, I noticed that is was a formidable force, particularly when the said player playing against it is using a heavily offensive team. Deoxys-S doesn't centralise by its strict definition, but I like many others in this thread feel that it restricts team combinations, something I would consider worthy of being sent up to Ubers. It basically requires packing of a defensive wall/tank able to deal with Deoxys-S on an offensive team which I believe is causing the shift from frail sweepers to bulky offense.
I do not think that Deoxys-S is making the item Choice Scarf obsolete - as quite a few people have mentioned in this thread, Choice Scarf is still used on many pokemon due to their type advantages and movepool. What Deoxys-S is should be a Choice Scarfer without move limitation and a great movepool, able to clean up extremely efficiently lategame and pose a great threat to offensive teams.
Trying to down it by its own Life Orb recoil isn't much of a point, if you could predict the other opponent also could.
Deoxys-S outspeeds many sweepers and exploits their weaknesses with the sweeper set, with Superpower to remove a weakened Blissey or Snorlax, or a similarly typed special wall. Deoxys-S is a formidable offensive force and I strongly feel it should be sent to Ubers.
In my experiences with using and playing against Deoxys-S on Shoddybattle, I noticed that is was a formidable force, particularly when the said player playing against it is using a heavily offensive team. Deoxys-S doesn't centralise by its strict definition, but I like many others in this thread feel that it restricts team combinations, something I would consider worthy of being sent up to Ubers. It basically requires packing of a defensive wall/tank able to deal with Deoxys-S on an offensive team which I believe is causing the shift from frail sweepers to bulky offense.
I do not think that Deoxys-S is making the item Choice Scarf obsolete - as quite a few people have mentioned in this thread, Choice Scarf is still used on many pokemon due to their type advantages and movepool. What Deoxys-S is should be a Choice Scarfer without move limitation and a great movepool, able to clean up extremely efficiently lategame and pose a great threat to offensive teams.
Trying to down it by its own Life Orb recoil isn't much of a point, if you could predict the other opponent also could.
Deoxys-S outspeeds many sweepers and exploits their weaknesses with the sweeper set, with Superpower to remove a weakened Blissey or Snorlax, or a similarly typed special wall. Deoxys-S is a formidable offensive force and I strongly feel it should be sent to Ubers.
Deoxys-S is, in my opinion not uber.
I've used him on nearly every team since he was unbanned and he's been far from overpowering. True he does have great versatility and with 500~ speed can take on most offensive teams.
However from my experiences with him he's fairly easily stopped, Cresselia/Uxie/Scizor/Bronzong amongst others all stop him dead and have their own ways of dealing with him. Dugtrio also destroys the standard sweeper with Sucker Punch. So he does have quite a few solid counters that are common in OU, which is more than can be said for Garchomp.
I've used him on nearly every team since he was unbanned and he's been far from overpowering. True he does have great versatility and with 500~ speed can take on most offensive teams.
However from my experiences with him he's fairly easily stopped, Cresselia/Uxie/Scizor/Bronzong amongst others all stop him dead and have their own ways of dealing with him. Dugtrio also destroys the standard sweeper with Sucker Punch. So he does have quite a few solid counters that are common in OU, which is more than can be said for Garchomp.
I don't really believe Deoxys-S has overcentralized the OU metagame, it's possible to take it down with proper prediction and a small counter (I've even gotten by without a counter for it). I believe that if Deoxys-S was as insansely powerful as some people say it is, it'd be seen much more often, probably breaking the top ten, and it hasn't even come close... The only reason Deoxys-S should even come close to being uber is becuse of the Cosmic-Stall set, but even that one set isn't threatening enough to ban the whole Poke to Ubers. I just don't see the big to-do about banning it...
Deoxys should remain in OU.
Deoxys should remain in OU.
I kinda skimmed this entire thread, alot of arguing going on!
Deoxys-e is definitely an interesting pokemon. After being considered Uber in ADV many of us shunned it from ever being allowed in the OU environment. And yeah, when deoxys-e first was unbanned I either made fun of all the users who used it and/or didn't care about it at all. Lately I've seen quite alot of people use this pokemon, and you know whats in common with everyone? It's usually the LAST pokemon used. And most of the time it wins which is just sad. I'm really torn on this decision though, I want to see and use deoxys-e sometimes, but other times I just want it rebanned. It does add a huge change in the metagame, which sucks because there is already so much to "counter". And with that said I think Deoxy-s should be moved back to uber.
Deoxys-e is definitely an interesting pokemon. After being considered Uber in ADV many of us shunned it from ever being allowed in the OU environment. And yeah, when deoxys-e first was unbanned I either made fun of all the users who used it and/or didn't care about it at all. Lately I've seen quite alot of people use this pokemon, and you know whats in common with everyone? It's usually the LAST pokemon used. And most of the time it wins which is just sad. I'm really torn on this decision though, I want to see and use deoxys-e sometimes, but other times I just want it rebanned. It does add a huge change in the metagame, which sucks because there is already so much to "counter". And with that said I think Deoxy-s should be moved back to uber.
concerning deoxys speed form, i think people are having trouble with it now because they haven't yet built their teams with deoxys in mind.
the things that beat deoxys speed include: boosted quick attack clones, sucker punch, pursuit on something that doesn't die in one hit from its attacks (spiritomb), steel/psychic types, among other things.
quick attack clones are a good idea on teams now, so i don't see what the big deal is. dugtrio can revenge kill w/ ease since it usually has 4 attacking moves, and it's not like it has extraordinary defenses anyway. therefore, my vote goes to not uber
the things that beat deoxys speed include: boosted quick attack clones, sucker punch, pursuit on something that doesn't die in one hit from its attacks (spiritomb), steel/psychic types, among other things.
quick attack clones are a good idea on teams now, so i don't see what the big deal is. dugtrio can revenge kill w/ ease since it usually has 4 attacking moves, and it's not like it has extraordinary defenses anyway. therefore, my vote goes to not uber
You are going to have to do better than that, in my opinion, because the only thing here that isn't appealing to a previous post has already been addressed: why is curbing Choice Scarf use a bad thing?
Here are some statistics you guys are going to have a tough time writing off.
Of the top OU pokemon in December 2007, the last month before Deoxys-S:
- Blissey (56445215 points)
- Garchomp (48969247 points)
- Gengar (47210300 points)
- Gyarados (40376718 points)
- Tyranitar (39969044 points)
- Infernape (35691877 points)
- Salamence (32224350 points)
- Metagross (32207375 points)
- Cresselia (32110627 points)
- Heatran (30859801 points)
- Weavile (30232692 points)
- Swampert (30186353 points)
- Bronzong (28521378 points)
- Starmie (27301476 points)
- Skarmory (27238903 points)
- Lucario (26432506 points)
- Forretress (26006614 points)
- Gliscor (25726966 points)
- Breloom (25024670 points)
- Heracross (23514414 points)
- Garchomp (54486271 points)
- Gengar (44895630 points)
- Blissey (43662002 points)
- Gyarados (40781829 points)
- Tyranitar (40712470 points)
- Bronzong (38561213 points)
- Lucario (33603937 points)
- Heatran (32296203 points)
- Infernape (28406707 points)
- Salamence (28394085 points)
- Metagross (27920032 points)
- Starmie (27255382 points)
- Celebi (26153363 points)
- Gliscor (25461777 points)
- Swampert (22437398 points)
- Skarmory (21329419 points)
- Weavile (20984195 points)
- Forretress (20392752 points)
- Heracross (20076600 points)
- Zapdos (17840217 points)
The only "pokemon counterargument" would be Metagross, who was #8 in December and #11 in May, but dubious popularity with a Scarf aside, one could cite Garchomp's increasing ridiculousness and Bronzong's jump from #13 to #6 in that time period as reasons Metagross usage has fallen. Another counterargument would be for for pokemon like Medicham, but I would counter that with: if a pokemon itself cannot perform well in standard without a Scarf, how viable was that pokemon in the first place?
Therefore, it is simple—in no case has the usage of a pokemon that carries a Choice Scarf gone down. This says two things. One, these pokemon are maybe still using Choice Scarves just as much (not likely), or two...guess what? It doesn't matter if their "ability" to use a Choice Scarf has gone down, because they are very literally all more popular now than they were without DX-S in the picture. This means that their dependence on a Choice Scarf as far as their viability was concerned is virtually nonexistent. So, the question very literally is: who cares if DX-S has curbed Choice Scarf, assuming it really has? The pokemon sure haven't, and nor have the trainers using them in the last half year.
How is that relevant to discussion on a pokemon that has no special weakness to any form of passive damage? We're not talking about Salamence/Gyara who gets screwed by SR, and we're not talking about Blissey not being able to use its stalling strategies with Toxic Spikes going.
Deoxys takes passive damage completely generically, so I don't really see how that is an argument about its weakness compared to any other pokemon neutral to passive damage. Besides, teams that don't rely on passive damage should be viable in OU.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that. Don't have the confidence to voice an opinion one way or another on D-S. I can see how he's OU, I can see how he's ubers too.
- Status