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How do You Stop Deoxys?
- Thread starter Olie
- Start date
Oh right, I forgot about MixMence. See DS D-S is not so broken anymore and it should stay in OU. Yay. :) On a side note, DS D-S users can still send a ghost out to block the brick break. And draco meteor is not as threatening anymore without life orb, especially if Deoxys gets a light screen up (unless you put all EVs into special attack and have break brick just for the sole purpose of breaking the screens?). But then this is going to turn out to be a coin flipping game as both sides have quite a few options to choose from: light screen, brick break, draco meteor, switch, stealth rock, etc.
Even with 252 HP, standard mixed attacking Deoxys should OHKO with Superpower.
The issue with Deoxys-S isn't solely its sweeping set.
When everyone was only running the sweeping set, the Cosmic Power set and the Spikes set, I had no issue with it in OU and I ardently supported its inclusion in OU.
However, the advent of this Dual Screen, Taunt, Stealth Rock set has made me question my previous advocacy, simply because, as Tay pointed, completely different things stop the now top two Deoxys-S sets: the Dual Screen and the sweeper.
I'm not saying I believe Deoxys-S is uber or anything, but I think with the recent development of its usage that it should definitely be considered a suspect again.
EDIT: Also wdro, I believe even if the opponent switches in a Ghost that the Screens will be broken, though I am going on an extremely hazy recollection here so please correct me I am wrong. Brick Break breaks the screens regardless of whether or not it hits the opponent, right?
When everyone was only running the sweeping set, the Cosmic Power set and the Spikes set, I had no issue with it in OU and I ardently supported its inclusion in OU.
However, the advent of this Dual Screen, Taunt, Stealth Rock set has made me question my previous advocacy, simply because, as Tay pointed, completely different things stop the now top two Deoxys-S sets: the Dual Screen and the sweeper.
I'm not saying I believe Deoxys-S is uber or anything, but I think with the recent development of its usage that it should definitely be considered a suspect again.
EDIT: Also wdro, I believe even if the opponent switches in a Ghost that the Screens will be broken, though I am going on an extremely hazy recollection here so please correct me I am wrong. Brick Break breaks the screens regardless of whether or not it hits the opponent, right?
Brick Break is the best counter for the DS Deoxys-S. If you have it the most Deoxys will have set up is SR, which is better then 2 screens being passed to a sweeper to set up.
People have been running Choice Scarf Weavile to deal with Deoxys, but i think thats overkill.
The sweeper sets are probably harder to deal with in my opinion. Steel-Psychics do a good job, especially metagross who can pursuit it, especially if it superpowered on the switch. (lets say your ttar was in before) Basically, a bulky pokemon that can take a move and hit back hard can wear it down, along with any residual and LO damage it might take. If the pokemon has a form of recovry or wish support it's even better. Priority moves are great too.
Edit-Aldaron, yes the screens are broken even if the oponent switched to a ghost.
People have been running Choice Scarf Weavile to deal with Deoxys, but i think thats overkill.
The sweeper sets are probably harder to deal with in my opinion. Steel-Psychics do a good job, especially metagross who can pursuit it, especially if it superpowered on the switch. (lets say your ttar was in before) Basically, a bulky pokemon that can take a move and hit back hard can wear it down, along with any residual and LO damage it might take. If the pokemon has a form of recovry or wish support it's even better. Priority moves are great too.
Edit-Aldaron, yes the screens are broken even if the oponent switched to a ghost.
Maybe you are right. I never tested it so in that case if brick break can still break the screens then there you go, deoxys just got more counters :P
EDIT: Just randomly asked a few people on Shoddy (one of them is Maniac), they said brick break CAN'T break the screens when used on a ghost type.
Again SkarmBlissCounter, stopping the sweeper set is no longer the only concern.
Some might even argue it is not even the priority anymore.
Even beating the Dual Screen Deoxys-S isn't an issue; it is somehow reducing its effect on the game through making such strategies as stat buff sweeping and Baton Pass exponentially more viable and more easy to successfully accomplish.
You can beat the sweeper set all you want, but if you lose 25% of the time (that's an arbitrary percentage I have no idea what the actual proportion of Sweeper to Dual Screen is) against Deoxys-S, that's a huge issue.
One of the main goals in attempting to reduce the effect Deoxys-S has is finding viable Pokemon that can use Brick Break.
MixMence is one, and I've been trying out a cool new Lucario lead. Unfortunately, Brick Break doesn't leave much to work with =/
Some might even argue it is not even the priority anymore.
Even beating the Dual Screen Deoxys-S isn't an issue; it is somehow reducing its effect on the game through making such strategies as stat buff sweeping and Baton Pass exponentially more viable and more easy to successfully accomplish.
You can beat the sweeper set all you want, but if you lose 25% of the time (that's an arbitrary percentage I have no idea what the actual proportion of Sweeper to Dual Screen is) against Deoxys-S, that's a huge issue.
One of the main goals in attempting to reduce the effect Deoxys-S has is finding viable Pokemon that can use Brick Break.
MixMence is one, and I've been trying out a cool new Lucario lead. Unfortunately, Brick Break doesn't leave much to work with =/
wdro remember when I told you this on shoddy? You and Brawley didn't believe me then >_> Also I like your trademark of DS D-S...I suppose it was your set. Anyway, Aldaron is there a reason that you're running Mixmence with Focus Sash instead of Yache Berry? It seems like that would give it more usefulness throughout the game, and would achieve the same effect as a focus sash (unless you run into like Aerodactyl or something).
Also, having your own Deoxys-E with Shadow Ball isn't a bad way to beat either set, especially if the Dual Screen set fails to Light Screen as you switch in.
EDIT: Also, Aldaron, Scizor is a very viable Brick Break user, you could try a lead Scizor @ Lum Berry with Iron Head / Brick Break / X-Scissor / Quick Attack, and you could throw in Pursuit or Swords Dance somewhere in there too. This would not only beat either Deoxys-E (Pursuit would help with the sweeper set mid-late game), it also crushed Gengar leads, and if Azelf fails to Fire Blast first turn you will be able to take it down with Quick Attack before it can Explode/Fire Blast. And, of course, you can Brick Break any screens away!
I had Focus Sash for two reasons:
1.) The Aerodactyl Lead you mentioned, as I have seen quite a few of them
2.) Gyarados runs either Stone Edge or Ice Fang, and with Focus Sash I can get my 2HKO regardless.
Also, I'm theorymoning that other lead Salamence would OHKO me with a Dragon move, so it helps me out there. But I haven't actually run into this scenario, so its admittedly just theorymon for now.
Also, I completely forgot about Scizor. I've never made a successful team with it, but now I'm going to consider it again. Good call.
1.) The Aerodactyl Lead you mentioned, as I have seen quite a few of them
2.) Gyarados runs either Stone Edge or Ice Fang, and with Focus Sash I can get my 2HKO regardless.
Also, I'm theorymoning that other lead Salamence would OHKO me with a Dragon move, so it helps me out there. But I haven't actually run into this scenario, so its admittedly just theorymon for now.
Also, I completely forgot about Scizor. I've never made a successful team with it, but now I'm going to consider it again. Good call.
I posted a Dusknoir set that uses Shadow Sneak/Brick Break/Thunder(Ice)Punch/filler(usually pain split/taunt) and it does a really good job at countering the suicide and DS Deoxys-S leads. The most they can do is set up the Rocks.
There's always Defog.
I actually like running the before mentioned Scarf Weavile not only to beat Deoxys-S leads, DS and Mix alike, but to beat the ever common lead Azelf and Aerodactyl. Adamant 252 Scarf Weavile OHKOs 6 HP (Mix) Deoxys-S with 108.68% - 128.10% damage using Night Slash. I'm not sure on the spread for the DS Deoxys, but I'm sure you can 2HKO it.
You can run Magnezone too incase a steel type comes in to wall your Weavile.
You can run Magnezone too incase a steel type comes in to wall your Weavile.
For the Title:
Metagross @ Leftovers
Careful, Clear Body
252 Att, 236 SpD, 20 HP (X-Acts Calc said to do that with the remaining 256 EVs)
-Pursuit
-Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch
-Ice Punch/Earthquake
-ThunderPunch/Earthquake
-OR-
Metagross @ Leftovers
Adamant, Clear Body
252 Att, 252 SpD, 4 HP (Dunno, I use the first one, but I suppose this would work too)
-Pursuit
-Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch
-Ice Punch/Earthquake
-ThunderPunch/Earthquake
You could also use a CB on either set. The main point is just Pursuit.
Metagross @ Leftovers
Careful, Clear Body
252 Att, 236 SpD, 20 HP (X-Acts Calc said to do that with the remaining 256 EVs)
-Pursuit
-Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch
-Ice Punch/Earthquake
-ThunderPunch/Earthquake
-OR-
Metagross @ Leftovers
Adamant, Clear Body
252 Att, 252 SpD, 4 HP (Dunno, I use the first one, but I suppose this would work too)
-Pursuit
-Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch
-Ice Punch/Earthquake
-ThunderPunch/Earthquake
You could also use a CB on either set. The main point is just Pursuit.
eh salamence seems to be a shady thing to use. if it light screens and you brick break away, it could just light screen again, and at that point, we're killing it like at 12% at a time, maybe it sets up SR in the process. but i probably wouldn't use draco meteor, as it'll take up 4 PP to kill it without any screens, and all 8 if you didn't break it.
also just use a stall team. deoxys does nothing to your average spin blocker spiritomb, or your multi-garchomp/mamoswine/assorted shit counter cresselia. plenty of residue damage to stop it as well. as for the dual screen one, depends how you'd use it. using baton passers such as gliscor who can taunt? well it would appear as if you already had the opponent's roar'ers beat already without having to set up screens to kind of moot. although suicune would provide good mind games such as "it'll 2hko so if i taunt, i get nothing, but if i risk it, i might get roar'd" but that's pokemon for ya!
p.s. metagross is -not- a gengar counter unless youre running light screen/sleep talk/pursuit/bullet punch on one set
also just use a stall team. deoxys does nothing to your average spin blocker spiritomb, or your multi-garchomp/mamoswine/assorted shit counter cresselia. plenty of residue damage to stop it as well. as for the dual screen one, depends how you'd use it. using baton passers such as gliscor who can taunt? well it would appear as if you already had the opponent's roar'ers beat already without having to set up screens to kind of moot. although suicune would provide good mind games such as "it'll 2hko so if i taunt, i get nothing, but if i risk it, i might get roar'd" but that's pokemon for ya!
p.s. metagross is -not- a gengar counter unless youre running light screen/sleep talk/pursuit/bullet punch on one set
A lot of these posts I've been reading in this thread are so wrong...
Metagross does NOT stop dual screen Deoxys-E. How do you stop it? Prayer... or Brick Break.
Deoxys-E is THE most gamebreaking pokemon in OU. Period. No ifs ands or buts.
He has unpredictability and speed that Gengar dreams of, and the best movepool in OU. So how do you stop it? Well, you have to know the set. And seeing how he's faster than you, switching out means you've given him TWO turns to do what he wants to do.
Dual Screen Deoxys-E - is flat out Uber. I run it in ubers and it works just as easily there. Theres no way to beat it. You can brick break, but he can just through up another screen and stall your pissy weak brick breaks out of PP with pressure. Explosion is horribly predictable and after reflect, he survives that too. There is no way to stop it except, Night Slash Choice Scarf Weavile could do the trick, but that is overcentralization at its finest. I've seen Choice Scarf Jolteon's and Weaviles lately just for Deoxys. Pokemon of the top 2 speed tiers in the game. This is fucking ridiculous!
Sweeper Set - Spritomb and Cresselia are your best bets. Dugtrio makes a good revenge killer with sucker punch, as does a Hounchrow with Sucker Punch AND pursuit. Bulky steels work somewhat ok, but a lot of Deoxys-E are paired with Magnezone and / or residual damage. I wish people would start being more diverse with this set. I know I rely on Scizor to counter Deoxys, so I put Fire Punch on my own and fried so many Scizor and Forry. Swampert is an alright counter, but Deoxys-E can Grass Knot and Swampert can't even OHKO back. My famous Impish, Max Defense Snorlax makes a fantastic counter as Superpower is a 3HKO with attack drops. Quiet as kept, Careful Steelix (I used extensively on my Brock theme team) is a FANTASTIC counter, being 4HKOed by anything Deoxys can throw at it with Life Orb. And after the defense drop of superpower, EQ is a KO.
Cosmic Power / Taunt - Explosion + Priority move.
Spiker - Rapid Spinner
Rain Starter - No counter, it did its job before you touched it.
Metagross does NOT stop dual screen Deoxys-E. How do you stop it? Prayer... or Brick Break.
Deoxys-E is THE most gamebreaking pokemon in OU. Period. No ifs ands or buts.
He has unpredictability and speed that Gengar dreams of, and the best movepool in OU. So how do you stop it? Well, you have to know the set. And seeing how he's faster than you, switching out means you've given him TWO turns to do what he wants to do.
Dual Screen Deoxys-E - is flat out Uber. I run it in ubers and it works just as easily there. Theres no way to beat it. You can brick break, but he can just through up another screen and stall your pissy weak brick breaks out of PP with pressure. Explosion is horribly predictable and after reflect, he survives that too. There is no way to stop it except, Night Slash Choice Scarf Weavile could do the trick, but that is overcentralization at its finest. I've seen Choice Scarf Jolteon's and Weaviles lately just for Deoxys. Pokemon of the top 2 speed tiers in the game. This is fucking ridiculous!
Sweeper Set - Spritomb and Cresselia are your best bets. Dugtrio makes a good revenge killer with sucker punch, as does a Hounchrow with Sucker Punch AND pursuit. Bulky steels work somewhat ok, but a lot of Deoxys-E are paired with Magnezone and / or residual damage. I wish people would start being more diverse with this set. I know I rely on Scizor to counter Deoxys, so I put Fire Punch on my own and fried so many Scizor and Forry. Swampert is an alright counter, but Deoxys-E can Grass Knot and Swampert can't even OHKO back. My famous Impish, Max Defense Snorlax makes a fantastic counter as Superpower is a 3HKO with attack drops. Quiet as kept, Careful Steelix (I used extensively on my Brock theme team) is a FANTASTIC counter, being 4HKOed by anything Deoxys can throw at it with Life Orb. And after the defense drop of superpower, EQ is a KO.
Cosmic Power / Taunt - Explosion + Priority move.
Spiker - Rapid Spinner
Rain Starter - No counter, it did its job before you touched it.
I've seen Rain Starter sets with thunder though. Even though it only hits 50% in sun, it's still quite a risk to send in something as frail as Ninjask to take it. Even though it's faster after a protect. It looks like it would work, but would require some good prediction.