DP Celebi

Wayff

Credits to The Elitist for the set.

[SET]
name: Offensive CM
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover / Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Ground
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Offensive CM Celebi works alot like Offensive Suicune. However, unlike Suicune, it gets Recover, which gives Celebi more turns to attack. This also allows Celebi to take more hits Defensively, allowing Celebi to beat Garchomp more easily.</p>

<p>Grass Knot gives Celebi obvious STAB. In the third slot, Recover is preferred as Life Orb damage really adds up quickly. However, if it is desired Celebi to have as much type coverage as possible, Psychic is an option. Psychic + Hidden Power Fire hits every OU Pokemon except Tyranitar, Starmie, and Heatran for at least neutral damage. There are three choices in the final slot; Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Ice, and Hidden Power Ground. Hidden Power Fire hits Steels and other Celebi. Hidden Power Ice also hits other Celebi, while doing good damage against Dragons, such as Salamence. Hidden Power Ground nails any Heatran without Choice Scarf. It also does a good amount of damage against Jirachi and Metagross.</p>

<p>The EVs give you maximum sweeping potential with 252 Special Attack EVs. 176 Speed EVs lets you outspeed all Timid Roserade. 80 HP gives Celebi some bulk to take hits. If bulk is not preferred and you're running Hidden Power Ground, you can use 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe, which allows you to outspeed all Houndoom.
 
With all due respect Wayff.... what the hell makes these offensive Calm Mind sets viable, and the Raikou set I posted not? His type coverage is the same, and has much more speed and special attack!

Otherwise, I think psychic should be the first option over recover because it is Celebi's most consistent attack.
 
RaikouLover said:
With all due respect Wayff.... what the hell makes these offensive Calm Mind sets viable, and the Raikou set I posted not? His type coverage is the same, and has much more speed and special attack!
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Maybe because the Sub/CM Raikou IS a bulky offensive pokemon already? He doesn't really need to stretch out to three moves to get great type coverage as he already has access to BoltBeam, with STAB on the Thunberbolt obviously. By dropping Substitute for Shadow Ball you hurt yourself more than the tiny little bit Shadow Ball could help you. BoltBeam already has great coverage, and the things that are neutral to it or resist it (TTar and Magnezone come to mind immediately) aren't going to be hit by Shadow Ball anyway. The recent influx of these new offensive CM pokemon NEED the 3 moves because they don't have access to a STAB Thunderbolt or STAB Ice move that can hit so much of the metagame hard. Celebi has to use Grass Knot as a STAB move... Jirachi has to use Psychic... both have poor coverage but they use it because it has STAB and gives you the best kick possible. In the possible situations where you would maybe want Shadow Ball on Raikou you would probably rather be better off going with the STAB Thunderbolt anyway. These recent pokemon don't really have the room for a move like Substitute without sacrificing too much coverage I feel (I always felt like Sub/CM/Tbolt/Psychic Jirachi was slightly overrated with sooo many things out there resisting both those moves or not being bothered by non STAB Tbolts, the only real problem is STAB Psychic off of a CM can be nasty, intelligent players that used him well can set up sweeps with him, but he sure as hell isn't easy to use imo, as I've seen many people try to use it to poor results).

I've been playing with an offensive CM Celebi for over a month now, and I must say the option of HP Fighting/HP Ground could be mentioned for the ability to slam any non Choice Specs/Choice Scarf Heatran for 2HKO after SR damage. It is kind of situational (as I said they can't have Specs/Scarf otherwise they will beat you before you can beat them), but the number one Celebi swap in has to be Heatran, and Celebi does have the ability to beat some of them 1 on 1 after he gets his CM. It is probably too much of a situational HP to include, but I just felt like I could toss the idea out. I also ran CM/Psychic/HP:Fighting as my core moves with Psychic being the STAB move to punish anything that doesn't resist, HP:Fighting to pound Tyranitar that try to swap in, maybe be able to take on some Heatran 1 on 1 after Stealth Rock damage, and over all useful type coverage. The last slot I play tested Recover and Shadow Ball (that didn't work very well unless if you wanted to hit other Celebi and Cresselia). Grass/Fire is an ok combo, but I think it sucks to be honest because your most common swap in (Heatran) still beats you (actually any fire type that tries to swap into Celebi beats you), and almost anything part Flying beats you really easily too as they resist Grass Knot and most don't give a damn about HP:Fire hitting them. I can't believe I'm saying it but STAB Psychic actually seems like a better overall option on the set.

I've never personally used Grass Knot on my offensive Celebi as the coverage is poor, but I have always used Psychic (coverage sucks on it too I guess) as you can OHKO Gengar's playing it risky and trying to swap into Celebi, or even after the CM you can take a Shadow Ball from a Life Orb Gengar and (barely) live and return the OHKO with Psychic. Though, I am using a slightly bulkier Celebi with Leftovers > Life Orb and only ~295 speed so maybe it doesn't work with this one anyway. (Ill check it on damage calculators when I pull up the EV spread I've been testing).
 
You could probably drop the speed EVs down to 176, as +speed natured 95's are generally not seen in OU. Electivire, when it is used, is almost always Adamant, and the only other base 95 I can think of off the top of my head is Houndoom, who resists everything this set has to offer.

HP Ground could also be a consideration, if catching Heatran on the switch-in is something you'd like to be able to do. If a non-Scarf Heatran switches into CM, it will be OHKOed.
 
I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't run Recover on this. I think that's what makes CM Celebi different from say CM Raikou/CM Suicune since it has Recovery options. I don't see why Psychic would be given as an option over Recovery. I'd make Recover the only option and make a comment in the set comments something like "While Recover is recommended it can be replaced for Psychic for a secondary STAB" or something like that.
 
No, Psychic is still an option because it IS Celebi's most consistant attack. Psychic and Fire is good type coverage also so I wouldn't rule it out at all.
 
RaikouLover said:
With all due respect Wayff.... what the hell makes these offensive Calm Mind sets viable, and the Raikou set I posted not? His type coverage is the same, and has much more speed and special attack!

Otherwise, I think psychic should be the first option over recover because it is Celebi's most consistent attack.
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Ah, I thought the whole "Offensive Calm Mind" thing look familiar!

You do realize the set you're comparing this to (Offensive Suicune) was pretty much flat out rejected by most of the posters in your last thread, right?

All of the same objections there apply here, with an additional comment: Jirachi does this kind of set better than Celebi, especially with Substitute. So, for your reading pleasure, I'll quote myself.

Life Orb is a terrible, terrible option. You don't want a bulky sweeper taking extra damage, do you? Plus the whole point of Calm Mind is to raise both offense and defense. Leftovers only, seriously.
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Thanks for calling me horrible. Not like I've used several Calm Mind sets and experimented with this for months. No, I must be stupid.

"The power is too good to drop" sounds near accurate, and it should be an option. But 8 PP is bad. Bad. And over time, it averages a mere 1 BP more than Surf (120 * .8 = 96, while 95 = 95), making it even less of an option.

You can't set up "quicker" with Calm Mind. Nasty Plot / Tail Glow is "setting up quicker", not using Life Orb.

If you want to set up quickly, use a different Pokémon. You shouldn't be wasting the greatest assets Suicune has, meaning 101 HP Subs and great defenses, for "surprise value".
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The reason I don't think that it is a good option is that once you use Life Orb, all durability goes out the window and suddenly Suicune REALLY doesn't like taking damage. If you want to make a +SAtk / Life Orb sweeper, there are better Pokémon for the job. Deoxys-S, Porygon-Z, Jynx... all of these outclass Suicune in terms of raw sweeping potential. That's why I don't like the set. Obviously people like you and RaikouLover have used it with success, but I'm just throwing in my two cents. Again...
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I've tried Life Orb + Recover before and I usually haven't had much success with it. Recover is basically a waste of a turn, plus with all of the Life Orb damage you can't use it to tank, so it's really not that good an option.
 
Raikoulover, sorry if I sounded like it didn't work. I just wanted to know what your Raikou set did that the normal SubCM one didn't.

Gaborik, I've added HP Ground as an opinion to hit non-Scarf Heatran, Jirachi, and Meta.

Syberia, I've lowered down the speed to 176 EVs as yeah, Houndoom and Electvire are pretty rare.

Calecum, Psychic is good STAB and provides good coverage. I'll post the good coverage thing later.

Chris is me, the only reason I posted this set is because I've seen alot of people use it before (including myself) with success with Recover. Then again, alot of people these days are using CM / Surf / Ice Beam / HP Electric Suicune...
 
chrisisme, this set is rather different from suicune, and while the concept is the same, bringing past "victories" or whatever to this thread is really not the way to go tbh.

anyways, I'm really torn between psychic and recover, as they're both kinda needed, and so is the hp. dunno, you could ditch grass knot and lose your bulky water-beating ability, though with cm and recover you can beat them all anyways, and you get STAB and coverage or whatever as well as recover. dunno, food for thought. but yea, this is a great set and I can attest to its usefulness.
 
It just seems kinda like Deoxys-S or something could do it better than Celebi... Won't you at least want to make Leftovers a primary option? His distinguishing characteristic here is balanced offenive and defensive capabilities, so it seems like Life Orb kinda contradicts the bulky sweeper theme.
 
Wayff said:
Psychic + Hidden Power Fire hits every except Tyranitar, Starmie, and Heatran for at least neutral damage.
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I think you might have meant hits every OU pokemon, or pokemon. Personally, I think you should include OU pokemon, because other UU/UBER pokemon resist it and UU/UBER pokemon are common in UBER >.>
 
Psychic + Hidden Power Fire hits every except Tyranitar, Starmie, and Heatran for at least neutral damage. There are three choices in the final slot; Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Ice, and Hidden Power Ground. Hidden Power Fire hits Steels and other Celebi.
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I'd rephrase this why? Because I believe it would sound better if you lead off with "There are three choices in the final slot" not "Psychic + Hidden Power Fire hits...". So it would end up being something like "There are three choices in the final slot; HP Fire is for Steels and other Celebi plus coupled with Psychic hits everything in OU except Tyranitar, Starmie and Heatran for at least neutral damage...".

Thanks have a nice day ^^.
 
Hm, what a dilemna in my opinion.

Despite Psychic being Celebi's most CONSISTENT attack, Recover is almost (maybe permenantly) needed. That, and I don't like how Psychic draws in Dark-types just for Celebi to become even more afraid. As a matter of fact it also makes Steels more welcome (and this is excluding the fact of what Hidden Power you chose for now).

On that note I think Celebi needs to plainly use the route of Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire. IIRC it's resisted by Infernape, Heatran, Moltres, Salamence, and Dragonite (thanks darkie for pointing that out). This makes Psychic somewhat redundant but still has its uses against four of the five listed above but leaves you into a huge dilemna against Steels in general. Now I didn't say it's useless because the next argument I would hear is Blissey. And yes people are correct. If I did this calculation right max Calm Minds against the "standard" Blissey (0 HP / 176 SDef EVs) comes to 286 - 337 damage. The max damage comes around to over half of her HP thankfully but that's still a rough 33% chance. BTW the base power is 60 with Grass Knot. Now there is a slight alternative: Energy Ball. Despite having less PP it does have a consistent power (80 thankfully) and at least can 2HKO Blissey this way.

Meh, just thought I'd add something to this. Probably useless info though.
 
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