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Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?
- Thread starter Jetx
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Cursepert using Waterfall, perhaps?
EDIT: Yeah, it works. 240 HP/180 Def Cursepert just takes 20-24% damage from itemless max Atk Adamant Ho-oh's Sacred Fire, 26-31% if Ho-oh has a Life Orb, and 30-36% if it's a Choice Band. And 252 HP/000 Def Ho-oh takes 50-59% from Waterfall. It could be stalled at first, but after a single Curse, Swampert stops Ho-oh cold. Unless Ho-oh has Toxic and Swampy doesn't have Rest, you're safe.
And there's also the Restalk version; its Stone Edge does 87-100% to Ho-oh, and Sacred Fire does even less (18-21%, 23-27%, 27-31%).
Fuck, I love Swampert.
EDIT2: Also, I'm checking Rhyperior in the sand now with the spread suggested in the EV section of its analysis (252 HP/12 Atk/16 Def/230 SDef, Adamant), and it's not 2HKOed by almost nothing Ho-oh can throw at it. Sacred Fire is a 5HKO (hahaha), Earthquake from the CB set does 50-59% (hell, Rhyperior even has a chance of surviving), Specs Overheat does 30-35%, Specs Overheat does 39-46%, and well, Solarbeam kills it without Sandstorm. Duh. While in Sun, things get ugly as expected, but even so, Rhyperior can eat a CB Sacred Fire (37-43% damage).
And then, when it's Rhyperior's turn, it does 85-99% to 252 HP/000 Def Ho-oh, with Stone Edge, without Choice Band, after the phoenix uses Roost. That's ridiculous. If Rhyperior gets Burned, its Stone Edge does 57-67% damage, and then things get REALLY ugly. But if it's something like Roost - Stone Edge - Sacred Fire (+Burn) - Stone Edge, it's endgame for Ho-oh. If it's Sacred Fire (+Burn) - Stone Edge, Ho-oh is dead meat again. Actually, even if it's Switch-in - Sacred Fre (+Burn) - Roost - Stone Edge, Rhyperior could still try its luck, I think... Or be the Restalk version. And of course, if Ho-oh is at max health, Roost won't work.
I'm not saying "hey those two counter Ho-oh, let's unban it!", I'm just showing to pokémon that could handle Ho-oh.
EDIT: Yeah, it works. 240 HP/180 Def Cursepert just takes 20-24% damage from itemless max Atk Adamant Ho-oh's Sacred Fire, 26-31% if Ho-oh has a Life Orb, and 30-36% if it's a Choice Band. And 252 HP/000 Def Ho-oh takes 50-59% from Waterfall. It could be stalled at first, but after a single Curse, Swampert stops Ho-oh cold. Unless Ho-oh has Toxic and Swampy doesn't have Rest, you're safe.
And there's also the Restalk version; its Stone Edge does 87-100% to Ho-oh, and Sacred Fire does even less (18-21%, 23-27%, 27-31%).
Fuck, I love Swampert.
EDIT2: Also, I'm checking Rhyperior in the sand now with the spread suggested in the EV section of its analysis (252 HP/12 Atk/16 Def/230 SDef, Adamant), and it's not 2HKOed by almost nothing Ho-oh can throw at it. Sacred Fire is a 5HKO (hahaha), Earthquake from the CB set does 50-59% (hell, Rhyperior even has a chance of surviving), Specs Overheat does 30-35%, Specs Overheat does 39-46%, and well, Solarbeam kills it without Sandstorm. Duh. While in Sun, things get ugly as expected, but even so, Rhyperior can eat a CB Sacred Fire (37-43% damage).
And then, when it's Rhyperior's turn, it does 85-99% to 252 HP/000 Def Ho-oh, with Stone Edge, without Choice Band, after the phoenix uses Roost. That's ridiculous. If Rhyperior gets Burned, its Stone Edge does 57-67% damage, and then things get REALLY ugly. But if it's something like Roost - Stone Edge - Sacred Fire (+Burn) - Stone Edge, it's endgame for Ho-oh. If it's Sacred Fire (+Burn) - Stone Edge, Ho-oh is dead meat again. Actually, even if it's Switch-in - Sacred Fre (+Burn) - Roost - Stone Edge, Rhyperior could still try its luck, I think... Or be the Restalk version. And of course, if Ho-oh is at max health, Roost won't work.
I'm not saying "hey those two counter Ho-oh, let's unban it!", I'm just showing to pokémon that could handle Ho-oh.
The same Rhyperior during Sandstorm is only 3HKOed by itemless HP Grass, but I understand your opinion. And Cursepert doesn't mind Sacred Fire's burn rate!
And how would be Ho-oh moveset, with HP? HP Grass/Sacred Fire/Thunderbolt/Roost? Lack of Earthquake is disturbing, but I can't think of anything that is only stopped by Earthquake now. Yay, Restalk Garchomp.
EDIT: Restalk Tyranitar under Sandstorm and Restalk Thick Fat Hariyama are also something to consider.
If it has HP Grass different things can wall it. If HP Grass became standard, people would use different things to beat it.
I can't really think of any unholy wall-smashing Ho-oh set that isn't inferior to Salamence in all but special defensive abilities and the ability to sometimes burn things. Sacred Fire / EQ / T-bolt / HP Grass? Residual damage could kill this before it did much damage even if you lacked counters for it and Roosters are limited in versatility. Put simply, dropping T-bolt makes taking down some tougher water types difficult (even with HP Grass), dropping EQ makes Fire types tough to beat and dropping Roost makes it impossible to tank as well as Ho-oh wishes it could. Every set has plenty of flaws, really.
(Damn, I never thought Rhyperior could tank HP Grass, even with sandstorm and Solid Rock backing it up)
No pokemon appreciates their attack being halved and losing 12.5% per turn...
The notion of this thing and a previous comment of Latias becoming OU is a joke.
Ho-oh can switch into plenty of stuff when Stealth Rock isn't set up, including Scizor, Lucario, Heatran, Heracross, etc. There is really no counter for him. I really don't think people see Ho-oh's movepool...
Just because there are OU counters for something doesn't deem it OU! For example, Scizor can destroy Darkrai, yet there is absolutely no notion of Darkrai being OU. You can't just speculate such things without taking a look at the grand scale of things. Making Ho-oh OU would just as overcentralizing than Garchomp, as the only thing stopping it is its rock weakness.
The notion of this thing and a previous comment of Latias becoming OU is a joke.
Ho-oh can switch into plenty of stuff when Stealth Rock isn't set up, including Scizor, Lucario, Heatran, Heracross, etc. There is really no counter for him. I really don't think people see Ho-oh's movepool...
Just because there are OU counters for something doesn't deem it OU! For example, Scizor can destroy Darkrai, yet there is absolutely no notion of Darkrai being OU. You can't just speculate such things without taking a look at the grand scale of things. Making Ho-oh OU would just as overcentralizing than Garchomp, as the only thing stopping it is its rock weakness.
It's only 3HKOed if Ho-oh has no Life Orb/Specs, actually, and is +Sp. Atk with 252 EVs. But, if it really has all this investment, then Sacred Fire would not be as dangerous as it could.
And blasphemy, at least I'm not saying Ho-oh should be OU. I'm actually trying to find how would some pokémon change its spreads and sets to counter/handle it. And the no "counter argument" is kind of old - Lucario doesn't have a universal counter for all its sets, and I would not expect any less from Ho-oh. But, if each of its sets is countered by something different, then we are doing well. I've already shown that Restalker Swampert/Rhyperior can handle HPGrass-less versions, we could try to find counters or lures or [handyman?] to take care of Ho-oh.
And we can always count on Stealth Rock. Probably not enough, but it's there.
And blasphemy, at least I'm not saying Ho-oh should be OU. I'm actually trying to find how would some pokémon change its spreads and sets to counter/handle it. And the no "counter argument" is kind of old - Lucario doesn't have a universal counter for all its sets, and I would not expect any less from Ho-oh. But, if each of its sets is countered by something different, then we are doing well. I've already shown that Restalker Swampert/Rhyperior can handle HPGrass-less versions, we could try to find counters or lures or [handyman?] to take care of Ho-oh.
And we can always count on Stealth Rock. Probably not enough, but it's there.
For the imaginary land of OU Ho-oh:
Item: Life Orb?
Nature: Naughty
EVs: ???
- Sacred Fire
- HP Grass
- Roost
- EarthQuake/Thunderbolt
Even with Naughty, Ho-Oh has 306 SpD... yeah. Burn things, EQ Heatran, HP Grass Swampert and Rhyperior. Roost of all damage. Use Thunderbolt if you want to hurt Salamance, but it won't enjoy a burn and mix sets won't come close to kill this thing with 150 SpD. KING OF WALL BREAKERS right here. Even if you don't kill 'em, you burn them.
Item: Life Orb?
Nature: Naughty
EVs: ???
- Sacred Fire
- HP Grass
- Roost
- EarthQuake/Thunderbolt
Even with Naughty, Ho-Oh has 306 SpD... yeah. Burn things, EQ Heatran, HP Grass Swampert and Rhyperior. Roost of all damage. Use Thunderbolt if you want to hurt Salamance, but it won't enjoy a burn and mix sets won't come close to kill this thing with 150 SpD. KING OF WALL BREAKERS right here. Even if you don't kill 'em, you burn them.
This logic could easily apply to anything with Will-o-wisp, too. I think this has been brought up far too many times. Most times I've thought of a counter I've always had to take SF's huge burn rate into consideration, but if all the Ho-oh users would be depending on spamming Sacred Fire all day so that all their counters get messed up by a burn and they win every match will find their strategy backfiring more than just occasionally. Nothing appreciates a Burn, but Blissey doesn't "appreciate" switching into Ice Beams either.
People keep forgetting that Ho-oh is only a little more defensive than something like Zapdos, and slower too, and don't forget that worse typing. It isn't going to stop physical threats from being viable if Zapdos isn't, and there's really not much you can say to that, as they both function as counters to those threats in the same way. Also, how on earth does Ho-oh counter Heracross? Hera can smack it about with Stone Edge if it mispredicts and switches in. You're still better off with Gliscor.
Lucario can and does run Stone Edge (it could be standard if Ho-oh was in OU), and speed EVs would be needed to outpace it (it would tie at best, too).
What about all those walls? Cresselias and Snorlaxes, even Miltanks. That's more than could stop Garchomp, who would basically always bring something down with it. Ho-oh doesn't do that. The metagame has a lot of things that wall it tucked away in every corner. Don't forget how much Ho-oh hates status; Toxic basically always kills it and Paralysis makes it impossible to try to stall super effective moves with Roost.
That slash at the end there? The path you choose to follow opens you up to things either way. And you're still not making it past things like Snorlax (who Rests in your face too), so it's hardly a wallbreaker. Earthquake is practically compulsory to beat other Fire types, but CMCune gets this easily if it doesn't have T-bolt. Salamence doesn't have to come in on Sacred Fire, either. Example: a team with a heatran and a salamence. Heatran takes the Sacred Fire, then Salamence gets to come in free on the Earthquake and scare it off with Stone Edge (which is standard on DD sets, iirc) - and plenty of other ways to play around any Ho-oh issues.
In the beginning of D/P, SpecsMence scared everybody. But now people are wanting to let in SpecsLatios for the testing, which is faster and signicantly stronger. And if Manaphy got in, the abundance of rain teams would make Ho-oh totally unseen for the most part. This thread is getting really old now. I just want to know whether Ho-oh may be tested one day or whether anybody would consider making a Ho-oh tournament to further test it out, else we'll all be repeating ourselves until this thread vanishes to another page and people totally forget the whole thing. We may as well establish whether it could be tested one day or not, as that is the whole point of the thread. It really feels like every page is a repeat of the last with the same concerns and the same counter-arguments popping up again and again, so now I'm just desperate to see a bit of progress for once.
Ho-oh's counterable, but it would dominate the metagame with Ho-oh and Ho-oh counters. And probably wouldnt be tested with Manaphy, who would be declared uber due to promoting far too many rain battles.
Not really. the metagame gets dominated by a pokémon for a while (I expect the first couple of weeks of testing everybody would use it), but with counters at every turn Ho-oh will have trouble performing well for a while, so naturally its usage drops and the counters' probably does too. Then maybe Ho-oh goes up again, but it would fluctuate no more than any other pokémon do.
Vaporeon runs HP Electric for Gyarados (because let's face it, not much else cares), but if Gyara usage suddenly fell, so would HP Electric on Vaporeon. If people stopped using Scizor, people would probably cut out Zapdos too, etc.
basically I reckon it would work something like most other threats do. Fluctuate for a while, then either settle at a high or low usage rate, and if the usage was really that high people would just put it in Uber. It's no big problem, really.
like how Skymin, Scizor, and Salamence dominate this metagame with themselves and their counters?
The logic that "we shouldn't test X because it will unbalance the metagame" makes absolutely no sense to me. You can accurately predict the future? I'd like to know who wins the World Series and who wins the presidential election.
If you're talking about a Pokemon's influence in a metagame before it's even tested, it's purely speculation. The only plausible reason not to test a Pokemon (assuming you don't have an infinite amount of time) is actual, factual evidence. If we test Ho-oh, it may dominate, it may not, but that type of argument shouldn't hold any weight in deciding whether or not to test it.
If you're talking about a Pokemon's influence in a metagame before it's even tested, it's purely speculation. The only plausible reason not to test a Pokemon (assuming you don't have an infinite amount of time) is actual, factual evidence. If we test Ho-oh, it may dominate, it may not, but that type of argument shouldn't hold any weight in deciding whether or not to test it.
Notice how you listed three separate Pokemon. One Pokemon completely over centralizing the tier is different than a myriad of Pokemon dominating the tier.
Imagine Ho-oh with Sun support,dishing out boosted Sacred Fires and Solarbeaming/Thunderbolting it's counters.That's too scary for me.
Think about it,Heatran will never be a counter to Ho-oh even without Earthquake(unless everyone suddenly carries Stone Edge)thanks to it resisting fire and immune to Earth Power,while Ho-oh gets those Uber defenses.Pressure makes it worse for Heatran
A counter?I don't know,this thing carry everything it needs.No less.
Think about it,Heatran will never be a counter to Ho-oh even without Earthquake(unless everyone suddenly carries Stone Edge)thanks to it resisting fire and immune to Earth Power,while Ho-oh gets those Uber defenses.Pressure makes it worse for Heatran
A counter?I don't know,this thing carry everything it needs.No less.
Sometimes, it's not always about whether a pokemon by itself is broken, it's also about what Ho-oh can do for the user's team as a whole. If Ho-oh, by showing its face, can force pokemon like Suicune to pop in and Rest, it's just done a wonderful job of letting something else like SD Lucario come in for a Swords Dance, for instance.
I think we should note that Sacred Fire's burn rate isn't that good. It's slightly under 50% in fact, high but not its no given. With only 8 pp it can be stalled out, especially by Pressure Pokemon, or you could switch in Pokemon that don't care about being burned, like Resttalkers or Natural Cure Pokemon.
Anyway, I think there's enough of an argument to at least test Ho-oh at some point. There are some ubers which I don't think there are enough factors to move them down to OU(definite ubers), but I don't think Ho-Oh,Manaphy, Lati@s fall into this category.
Anyway, I think there's enough of an argument to at least test Ho-oh at some point. There are some ubers which I don't think there are enough factors to move them down to OU(definite ubers), but I don't think Ho-Oh,Manaphy, Lati@s fall into this category.
47.5% chance counting accuracy. Chomp's Sand Veil only had 20% of activating, and that's if Sandstorm was in play. Yet 20% was still considered broken.
And Chomp was overcentralising the metagame single-handlingly. Now, its a group of selected few - Skymin, Scizor, Salamance, Zapdos, Heatran being the top 5. Ho-oh would change that and dominate the metagame single-handlingly, destroying Skymin, Scizor, Salamance and Heatran (and Zapdos has a bad chance due to Ho-oh's high burn chance and insane spcdef).
And where is your evidence for Ho-oh doing that to the metagame? Have you tested it before?
Also, Scizor can OHKO Ho-oh with Quick Attack after SR, and Salamence can outspeed it and OHKO with Stone Edge. As for Skymin, Ho-oh isn't a safe switch for that either, as after a special defence drop Skymin can take off a huge chunk of health with Air Slash (around 50% I think it was, and this is off the bulkiest of them). This has been mentioned before.
There is a big difference between your Ice Beam missing Garchomp and your switch-in getting burned. If that 20% chance came into play, it would generally be very unfair; on the other hand, Sacred Fire's burn rate is something to be concerned about straight away, and people will know not to switch physical attackers into it unless they're Fire types or have Lum berries. Bear in mind that you don't have to switch your counters into SF in the first place. If a Ho-oh comes out on a Heatran, you can still feel free to switch an Aerodactyl in because it isn't going to even use SF anyway, especially not bearing in mind how precious its PP is.
But doesn't that logic apply to lots of pokémon? Most good teams should already be well equipped in the situation of it getting a Swords Dance, just as it still could get the very same thing by coming in on a Blissey (albeit being concerned about T-Wave)imperfectluck said:
On the other hand, Suicune probably wouldn't need to be resting after a SF unless it had taken all four of them, because it does nothing to it aside from the risk of Burn.
That 20% was not considered broken and if it didn't exist the suspect vote still probably would have pushed him into Ubers by a solid margin. Furthermore, Sand Veil is something you have no way to reasonably prepare for (besides removing sand), whereas against Ho-oh there are definitely at least some solid-looking options.
Shaymin-S has a 80% chance to drop SpD 2 levels and a 60% chance to make a pokemon flinch. I don't see whats wrong with testing in the suspect ladder, as that's what it's there for. It would be tested in an isolated area, and people could still play standard without fear.
Heatran's HP is 39 lower than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Attack is 40 lower than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Defense is only 16 higher than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Speed is 13 lower than Ho-Oh's
Heatran's Special Attack is only 20 Higher than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Special Defense is 48 lower than Ho-Oh's.
Ho-Oh has Roost/Recover/Safeguard. It can heal from SR damage.
Heatran can be trapped by Dugtrio and get a OHKO.
Heatran's BST is 80 Lower than Ho-Oh's.
Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire is 20 Base Power higher, and an extra 20% chance of burn than Lava Plume [basically 1/2 chance of burn vs. less than 1/3 chance of burn]
Ho-Oh has Thunderbolt, which can help it kill some Water foes.
Heatran's Attack is 40 lower than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Defense is only 16 higher than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Speed is 13 lower than Ho-Oh's
Heatran's Special Attack is only 20 Higher than Ho-Oh's.
Heatran's Special Defense is 48 lower than Ho-Oh's.
Ho-Oh has Roost/Recover/Safeguard. It can heal from SR damage.
Heatran can be trapped by Dugtrio and get a OHKO.
Heatran's BST is 80 Lower than Ho-Oh's.
Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire is 20 Base Power higher, and an extra 20% chance of burn than Lava Plume [basically 1/2 chance of burn vs. less than 1/3 chance of burn]
Ho-Oh has Thunderbolt, which can help it kill some Water foes.
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