Skymin Discussion Thread

[Darkmalice]

What's the point of walling suicune? I want to kill suicune. If I can't kill it than it can take its time killing me.

Maybe if you're running blissey or celebi, but for most sweepers a stab surf is going to leave a nice 30-40% sting at least even if coming from low special attack. Considering how few pokemon actually resist water, it's a (and that many non-water OU pokes who do are in turn weak to SR), along side all the terrific non-offensive options boasted by bulky waters, and they pose a big threat.

Besides, even if you are something not killed off the bat by surf, it doesn't mean you can beat suicune either. Also none water pokemon who resist water, hate this thing called "ice beam"?

30-40% would generally be done by a Modest Suicunce with 252 SpcAtt EVs, which is a waste of walling capabilities. You could have least mentioned Vaporeon, who has base 110 spcatt and could actually reasonably that get damage (but still not to your standard). Vaporeon can 2HKO lucario, who has low defences. Skymin's are higher and has a resist, she will take less than 25% guaranteed.

And there are MANY water pokemon in the metagame, almost every team has at least 1 - gyara, swampert (with earthquake for other waters to neutralise his 1x water resist), starmie, suicune, vaporeon being the main ones.

Of course, Skymin would be a dumbass to swap in on Suicune (unless he can OHKO) thanks to Ice Beam (unless he's your. But Suicune is also a dumbass to swap in on Skymin, whose only hope of OHKO is hax - seed flare miss.

 

[Evil Hamster]

Yes, Blissey usually has Spd now (I'm one of the few who doesn't). But usually when Blissey swaps in on my Skymin, she gets 2HKOed by Seed Flare, and that is because of SR, which is set up by both opponents in most games. Blissey still has a dam hard time walling Skymin.

It's also interesting that Blissey has invested in Spd solely for Skymin (the Spd wasn't needed for any other SpcAttacker except SpecsLuke (who is less seen than SDLuke) (and Specs Timid Gengar doesn't 2HKO with Focus Blast).

It's been standard to run Special Defense for a long time now, long before the introduction of Skymin. Perhaps the most notable example you missed is Heatran's Flash Fire boosted Choice Specs Fire Blast.

 

[Calciphoce]

What's funny, Chou, is that SkarmBliss counters that generic team almost to a T. It's like things have reverted so far to the point where generic teams are countered by generic wall combinations, and that's all that even exists anymore. I personally don't think Skymin is much of a huge threat, but it has made the metagame more boring than it previously was.

I'm taking back what I said before. Skymin is definitely a broken Pokemon. If I had to have three "counters" to deal with the bastard, isn't that too much? I hadn't seen many Skymin in a long while, so I made a different team that didn't have so many things that could deal with it. Oddly enough, shortly after I ran into a handfull of them. Almost every time I saw one I lost. You know why? Because a smart Skymin player plays so that the most luck is factored into Skymin killing something. In a word, being "cheap". Skymin simply factors too much luck and power in to be dealt with.

Really, there are only 2 "counters" to Skymin, and it depends on whether it has Leech Seed or Earth Power. If it has Leech Seed, (scarf)Heatran can switch in on it, though not more than two times reliably if I remember correctly. If it has Earth Power, Max/Max Zapdos or Registeel with the same setup can beat it also. Even then, (since we're assuming that the Skymin is running Sub/Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power) the Skymin will use Seed Flare on the turn the sub breaks. At that moment the Skymin still has a chance to win due to Air Slash flinches.

 

[Darkmalice]

I'm taking back what I said before. Skymin is definitely a broken Pokemon. If I had to have three "counters" to deal with the bastard, isn't that too much? I hadn't seen many Skymin in a long while, so I made a different team that didn't have so many things that could deal with it. Oddly enough, shortly after I ran into a handfull of them. Almost every time I saw one I lost. You know why? Because a smart Skymin player plays so that the most luck is factored into Skymin killing something. In a word, being "cheap". Skymin simply factors too much luck and power in to be dealt with.

Really, there are only 2 "counters" to Skymin, and it depends on whether it has Leech Seed or Earth Power. If it has Leech Seed, (scarf)Heatran can switch in on it, though not more than two times reliably if I remember correctly. If it has Earth Power, Max/Max Zapdos or Registeel with the same setup can beat it also. Even then, (since we're assuming that the Skymin is running Sub/Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power) the Skymin will use Seed Flare on the turn the sub breaks. At that moment the Skymin still has a chance to win due to Air Slash flinches.

Any pokemon can swap in on leech seed if its faster than Skymin and can OHKO - deoxys, jolteon, aerodactyl, crobat (but against other sets and/or sub or air slash, he badly risks suicide), other scarfers. swapping into a sub is much harder.

be careful with the word broken, it tends to mean that that is the only reason why it is so good, and skymin's got other factors (though the luck is probably the best)

but yes, the luck factor can completely screw up so many things. even zapdos and registeel can die from repeated air slash flinch (registeel is very unlikely, but zapdos could have swapped in on a seed flare and lost double spcdef). The fact that the luck is above 50% means its actually likely. there's very few true counters, but it has to be beaten more with prediction and forcing it out so it takes SR damage. Good skymin users, unfortunately, use prediction to wreck havoc, and forcing her out is much harder late game, when she tends to make her first revealance. A priority move user is needed to be kept alive late game or skymin poses a big threat.

 

[Darklord]

Haha.. that little bugger has been upsetting the metagame lately.

Seeing a special attacker forcing Blissey to switch out is just priceless. :D

 

[kd24]

right now im loving np crobat as a good efficient counter to skymin

Air Slash, Heat Wave, and Sludge Bomb are all super effective so it doesnt matter what you use and crobat 4x resists seed flare. he also outspeeds skymin and is immune to earth power. Im really surprised about how few of these there are.

 

[blasphemy1]

I have never, in all of the games I have played, had problems with Skaymin. To even compare it to Garchomp just makes everything else you say seem less credible. Stealth Rock weakness, no immunity to sandstorm or THUNDER WAVE, below average defenses(even with the 100 base HP), and a lack of a reliable stat upper outside of Growth(which is definitely not Swords Dance).

Seriously, what is everyone complaining about? I thought at first he would definitely be overhyped, but I figured once people have fought it enough, killing it with Scarf Heatran + Bullet Punch Scizor, that it would see less usage. Pretty simple strategy that beats EVERY Skymin. Switch in Scizor on hopefully a Air Slash / Substitute / Earth Power, tho Seed Flare could work as well. Bullet Punch, bringing it down near KO range for another bullet punch or breaking its Sub, then finish it with Heatran.

Just to clarify how poor its defenses are, a 0 Atk / neutral natured Swampert can do ~23% of its health, with sandstorm and stealth rock, it is below 50% from just switching in!

I guess the biggest argument here is, yes, Skymin is a huge threat, but its lack of survivability makes it incredibly easy to bring down, thus lowering the need for "true" counters.

 

[lilyhollow]

there was like a 5% chance of that happening or something so whatever.

 

[kd24]

there was like a 5% chance of that happening or something so whatever.

i think that with the crit as well its a .07% chance but im probably wrong.

 

[the_artic_one]

Except when it happens multiple times. It's happened to me before.

Coincidence?

Yes, I suggest you read the discussion guide.

Oh also, Togekiss had the exact same chance of doing the exact same thing (with the advantage of possibly surviving in the event that one of those flinches didn't go off). For those wondering the chance of five flinches followed by a crit is about 0.5%.

Oh k my bad.

I'll come back when people need skill to win and not luck.

You realize that statement applies as much to you than to anyone else (since you lost due to luck).

 

[Fishin]

I have never, in all of the games I have played, had problems with Skaymin. To even compare it to Garchomp just makes everything else you say seem less credible. Stealth Rock weakness, no immunity to sandstorm or THUNDER WAVE, below average defenses(even with the 100 base HP), and a lack of a reliable stat upper outside of Growth(which is definitely not Swords Dance).

Seriously, what is everyone complaining about? I thought at first he would definitely be overhyped, but I figured once people have fought it enough, killing it with Scarf Heatran + Bullet Punch Scizor, that it would see less usage. Pretty simple strategy that beats EVERY Skymin. Switch in Scizor on hopefully a Air Slash / Substitute / Earth Power, tho Seed Flare could work as well. Bullet Punch, bringing it down near KO range for another bullet punch or breaking its Sub, then finish it with Heatran.

Just to clarify how poor its defenses are, a 0 Atk / neutral natured Swampert can do ~23% of its health, with sandstorm and stealth rock, it is below 50% from just switching in!

I guess the biggest argument here is, yes, Skymin is a huge threat, but its lack of survivability makes it incredibly easy to bring down, thus lowering the need for "true" counters.

Well, by that logic, Deoxys-A must be OU too then, because it's even weaker than Shaymin-S defensively, right? And Garchomp must be OU because it has all the versatility of Unown. When you're looking at a Pokemon and trying to decide its status, you have to look at everything. In fact, it's far more to look at the Pokemon's strong points, because those are ultimately what's going to determine how valuable it is. Sure, Blissey has 10 base defense, but it's got plenty of other qualities that make it worth using.

 

[Kagster123]

Yes, I suggest you read the discussion guide.

Oh also, Togekiss had the exact same chance of doing the exact same thing (with the advantage of possibly surviving in the event that one of those flinches didn't go off). For those wondering the chance of five flinches followed by a crit is about 0.5%.



You realize that statement applies as much to you than to anyone else (since you lost due to luck).

But Togekiss doesn't outspeed 95% of the metagame and reduce opponents SpD by 2 stages at any point. Comparing there flinch-haxing abilities is pathetic because Togekiss needs a scarf to reach skymins speed, and can't switch moves, while Skymin can do so freely.

 

[phalanx]

and togekiss has parahax to go with its flinch.
as fast as it is, priority moves can take it out of the matchup very quickly especially with rocks in play.

 

[Death Phenomeno]

and togekiss has parahax to go with its flinch.

Well Skymin may not have Body Slam, but nothing's stopping her from using Secret Power.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Well Skymin may not have Body Slam, but nothing's stopping her from using Secret Power.

I think he meant reliable parahax in the form of Thunder Wave. Body Slam / Secret Power's chance is only 60% and does not affect Ghosts, as opposed to Ground types that do not concern Skymin at all.

 

[Kagster123]

Jolteon, Electivire, Lanturn, and Ground-types dont mind taking Thunder Waves.

Not to mention it's much easier revenge-killing Togekiss. I can send in my LOgar to Thunderbolt it, but there are very few pokemon that outspeed Skymin and can one-shot it. Some pokemon carry choice scarf just for it.

 

[Bourbon]

Those "below average defenses" are on par with Salamence's. Are you calling Salamence frail?

 

[Kira]

Those "below average defenses" are on par with Salamence's. Are you calling Salamence frail?

Salamence has Intimidate to help with the below average defense. He also has dragon typing coupled with roost.

 

[Bourbon]

That's not the point. Salamence can take a hit or two even without Intimidate.

95/80/80 ~ 100/75/75

Swampert's Waterfall does less than 21% no matter what. Suicune's Surf does less than 20%.

 

[Darkmalice]

Skymin's going find it easier now, with deoxys banned. one less revenge killer and one less pokemon setting up light screen.

 

[crobatchop]

Since Shaymin is no longer weak to Bug-type attacks, it's better if it runs HP Ground. A simple moveset to come up with is Substitute, Seed Flare, Air Slash, and HP Ground. Heatran would need to have a +Spe nature to be able to outspeed Shaymin. If that investment is made, it will lose some punch. And if Shaymin sets up a Substitute as Heatran switches in, then you'll only be able to break the Substitute.

The best thing to do would be to sacrifice something to allow Heatran to switch into it without Shaymin unprotected. But then you are looking at a Garchomp scenerio, where Shaymin can just switch out and come in again when it can repeat the same thing.

Registeel may be a decent counter since it has access to Ice Punch. A -2 drop in SpD may be troublesome, but seeing what else is out there, it seems like it would be one of the better options. It's difficult because not only can it severely drop your SpD, but it can also chain flinches until your opponent has enough HP for you to finish them off. That's where Blissey will be useless.

Only time will tell. It should be tested before we jump to conclusions.

Can't Skymin learn Earth Power?

 

[Bogmire]

Can't Skymin learn Earth Power?

earth power does laughable damage to registeel. even specs won't 2HKO. The only way skymin can beat Registeel is if Registeel switches in on Growth and Skymin has Life Orb. Earth Power will then take over half of Registeel's health, while Registeel's Ice Punch won't come close to KOing and LO damage still leaves you standing with enough health to finish it off, but you'll commit suicide in the process. And this only works if you're lucky enough to not have SR on your side of the field. This also assumes you're battling a 252 hp/120 atk/136 spD careful registeel which your opponent should be using if they're using it to counter skymin. Since the spread allows you to survive 2 specs earth power, and have enough attack to OHKO Skymin with Ice Punch after SR damage.

 

[Darkmalice]

earth power does laughable damage to registeel. even specs won't 2HKO. The only way skymin can beat Registeel is if Registeel switches in on Growth and Skymin has Life Orb. Earth Power will then take over half of Registeel's health, while Registeel's Ice Punch won't come close to KOing and LO damage still leaves you standing with enough health to finish it off, but you'll commit suicide in the process. And this only works if you're lucky enough to not have SR on your side of the field. This also assumes you're battling a 252 hp/120 atk/136 spD careful registeel which your opponent should be using if they're using it to counter skymin. Since the spread allows you to survive 2 specs earth power, and have enough attack to OHKO Skymin with Ice Punch after SR damage.

LO Skymin without Growth could beat registeel by repeated air slash flinch. Its not very unlikely if that registeel swaps in on earth power. SR will increase this chance.

 

[lilyhollow]

LO Skymin will not be beating Registeel with repeated Air Slash flinch, I'm not sure why you even suggested that. I wouldn't be surprised if just praying for an Earth power critical would be more viable.

 

[Darkmalice]

LO Skymin will not be beating Registeel with repeated Air Slash flinch, I'm not sure why you even suggested that. I wouldn't be surprised if just praying for an Earth power critical would be more viable.

Registeel swaps in on an Earth Power and SR. Then after 1-2 Air Slashes (depending on their stats), it can be KOed by Earth Power. 1 flinch has a 57% chance of occuring. 2 is unlikely, but its still possible, much more likely than a critical.