Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

[CHENN]

I completely agree with what jrrrrrrr and donovantx8. Most people use Skymin sets that rely on it's flinching abilities. I haven't yet been swept by Skymin, as it's farily easy to beat. Switching in is a pain for it, as Stealth Rock takes a large amount of health away.

It's already been said before, but Togekiss is much better at "flinching pokemon to death", as it gets Thunder Wave, Roost, Sturdy Defenses, and Nasty Plot.

At the moment, I think that it should be OU.

 

[never_again]

no way CHENN

in my opinion, Skymin might be easily stopped, but you need the right personell

if a threat is demanding a specific list of counters, then it should be banned because thats basically what Garchomp was
Garchomp demanded you have certain pokemon on your team, and even then Garchomp took down at least one pokemon with it,

Skymin (and Scizor) have brought up Heatran's usage almost by themselves, and even then Heatran could be slaughtered by a predicted Earth Power, even though Naive scarftran is a supposed counter. Then Skymin can easily switch out, into something like Vaporeon or some other Bulky Water, take care of Heatran and then Skymin comes back in

Zapdos cant switchin easily either, despite its status as a supposed counter, because HP Ice is a 2HKO with SR up

so just because something has its counters, which everything does, doesnt mean its fair in a certain metagame. Skymin can easily beat Zapdos and Heatran with prediction, Blissey can switch in, and so can Registeel but Registeel fears a SpDef drop followed by an Earth Power.

It may not be versatile, but neither was Garchomp really, and it is clearly, for the lack of a better word, overcentralizing the OU metagame

 

[Bologo]

no way CHENN

in my opinion, Skymin might be easily stopped, but you need the right personell

if a threat is demanding a specific list of counters, then it should be banned because thats basically what Garchomp was
Garchomp demanded you have certain pokemon on your team, and even then Garchomp took down at least one pokemon with it,

Skymin doesn't require a counter. It just requires a check, as in something that can kill it or cripple it. Also, did you actually read CHENN's post? He never once said that it required any specific counter, in fact, very few people are actually saying that. Even if Skymin is taking only 25% from a certain attack on the switch-in, it'll still be at only half its health due to Stealth Rock. Coupled with Life Orb, and 0 Defensive EVs, it's very hard-pressed to take any hits.

Skymin (and Scizor) have brought up Heatran's usage almost by themselves, and even then Heatran could be slaughtered by a predicted Earth Power, even though Naive scarftran is a supposed counter. Then Skymin can easily switch out, into something like Vaporeon or some other Bulky Water, take care of Heatran and then Skymin comes back in

Have you looked at the statistics? Heatran WOULD NOT have been #1 if it was only because of Scizor/Skymin. It was already on pretty much every team before Platinum came out (which is before Scizor was really good and before Skymin even existed).

Also, Skymin cannot "easily" switch out. It still has to find a way back in after that, which either requires a team member to die, or requires him to take a gigantic dent by just coming in and taking an attack at the same time.

Zapdos cant switchin easily either, despite its status as a supposed counter, because HP Ice is a 2HKO with SR up

HP Ice has very little use outside of the Specs set. If it used HP Ice on Zapdos while it switched in, switch to something that can take HP Ice, and Skymin will be forced to switch out or die/be crippled. Also, if HP Ice is Sub set, it greatly reduces Skymin's coverage, making it even easier to kill.

so just because something has its counters, which everything does, doesnt mean its fair in a certain metagame. Skymin can easily beat Zapdos and Heatran with prediction, Blissey can switch in, and so can Registeel but Registeel fears a SpDef drop followed by an Earth Power.

Uhh Registeel has Clear Body, meaning that his Special Defense CAN'T be lowered...

It may not be versatile, but neither was Garchomp really, and it is clearly, for the lack of a better word, overcentralizing the OU metagame

Ok, so can you explain what "overcentralizing" is, and how Skymin is actually doing this? I'm honestly not convinced by anything you said, sorry.

 

[DT]

no way CHENN

in my opinion, Skymin might be easily stopped, but you need the right personell

if a threat is demanding a specific list of counters, then it should be banned because thats basically what Garchomp was
Garchomp demanded you have certain pokemon on your team, and even then Garchomp took down at least one pokemon with it,

Skymin (and Scizor) have brought up Heatran's usage almost by themselves, and even then Heatran could be slaughtered by a predicted Earth Power, even though Naive scarftran is a supposed counter. Then Skymin can easily switch out, into something like Vaporeon or some other Bulky Water, take care of Heatran and then Skymin comes back in

Zapdos cant switchin easily either, despite its status as a supposed counter, because HP Ice is a 2HKO with SR up

so just because something has its counters, which everything does, doesnt mean its fair in a certain metagame. Skymin can easily beat Zapdos and Heatran with prediction, Blissey can switch in, and so can Registeel but Registeel fears a SpDef drop followed by an Earth Power.

It may not be versatile, but neither was Garchomp really, and it is clearly, for the lack of a better word, overcentralizing the OU metagame

Skymin doesnt require something on your team to stop most people have their revenge killer carry Ice Beam anyway, and most every team has Bolt,Beam coverage and Stealth rock somewhere, not putting in extra effort you wouldnt already have to beat Skymin;
Not to mention there are plently of pokemon in OU/BL that can play off Skymin

Dragonite, Alakazam, Lucario, Gallade, Crobat Inner Focusers-Steadfasters.

 

[Darkmalice]

I completely agree with what jrrrrrrr and donovantx8. Most people use Skymin sets that rely on it's flinching abilities. I haven't yet been swept by Skymin, as it's farily easy to beat. Switching in is a pain for it, as Stealth Rock takes a large amount of health away.

Most Skymin I see come out as a late game sweeper. Sometimes, they rely on 1 flinch in order to kill a pokemon, but not more. And 1 flinch isn't hax, its got more than 50% chance of occurring.

It's already been said before, but Togekiss is much better at "flinching pokemon to death", as it gets Thunder Wave, Roost, Sturdy Defenses, and Nasty Plot.

Paralysis gives Togekiss more chance at flinching. And Togekiss has better defences and Roost. In some ways, it is better.

But the main problem is Togekiss requires a moveslot and turn to paralysis the opponent due to his slow speed. And Thunderwave is blocked by Ground Pokemon, Jolteon and Electivire. Skymin has the speed to forego paralysis and flinch most pokemon, with the most common exception being scarfed pokemon and priority moves (the latter is only stopped 25% of the time by paralysis). Also, if the opponent swaps out, you have to paralysis the next pokemon, and Paraflinch Kiss has little attacking power, and don't fear an Air Slash, whilst Skymin's high power and speed means less can swap in on her (or she can Sub as Heatran is threatened with Earth Power)

 

[Bologo]

But the main problem is Togekiss requires a moveslot and turn to paralysis the opponent due to his slow speed. And Thunderwave is blocked by Ground Pokemon, Jolteon and Electivire. Skymin has the speed to forego paralysis and flinch most pokemon, with the most common exception being scarfed pokemon and priority moves (the latter is only stopped 25% of the time by paralysis). Also, if the opponent swaps out, you have to paralysis the next pokemon, and Paraflinch Kiss has little attacking power, and don't fear an Air Slash, whilst Skymin's high power and speed means less can swap in on her (or she can Sub as Heatran is threatened with Earth Power)

Togekiss doesn't only run Thunder Wave just so he can flinch his opponent. He runs it so that he can also support the team, since paralysis is permanent (besides aromatherapy/heal bell). Technically you oculd say that Skymin needs to "waste" a slot on Substitute to protect itself from status, and that doesn't support anyone else but him either. If Thunder Wave's a waste, then Substitute is garbage, which it obviously isn't.

Also, they have the same base Special Attack. It's not hard to have an offensive Togekiss. Togekiss still has some very impressive defenses even with 0 defensive EVs. Also don't forget that ScarfKiss is going to get more popular thanks to Togekiss gaining Trick in Platinum, so the Speed may stop being a huge issue sooner or later, just like it has with Heatran.

 

[A.P.]

...and so can Registeel but Registeel fears a SpDef drop followed by an Earth Power.

Registeel has Clear Body, which negates stat drops.

 

[phalanx]

skymin is a disspointing thing indeed, I think i have swept with it once, and that was only because it flinched everything... cant say its been a problem against my team either thanks to DDgyara (1 DD it outspeeds then OHKO's), its still useful in an infernape way (quick, decent movepool can kill a fair bit) but its not a game breaker

 

[cim]

Skymin is really underwhelming for various reasons, in my opinion. It's certainly really, really powerful, but it's got a good number of factors working against it.

While it's true you can list bad things about any Pokémon, I tried to emphasize the problems I pointed out by showing how they hinder it in battles. If anyone would like to "counter" these arguments, feel free and I'll try to respond. Remember though that the burden of proof is on the user favoring a ban, so debunking this doesn't mean it must be Uber...

• Skymin has "paper counters" as well as other valid responses. While "paper counters" are in general a flawed concept, they can be used to demonstrate a Pokémon's weaknesses or strengths to an extent. A lack of valid responses to Swords Dance Garchomp with a Yache Berry was one very common rationale for its Uber status, and this problem doesn't exist with Shaymin-s. In addition to paper counters (Registeel, Regice, Togekiss, Muk, Zapdos, Calm Blissey), Shaymin-s is seriously threatened by some of the metagame's most used Pokémon (Heatran, Scizor, Mamoswine). Of course the most common response to this claim is "overcentralizing", but unlike some Ubers, Shaymin actualyl has valid resonses that stop it from getting a "guaranteed kill".
• Skymin's power comes almost entirely from Seed Flare. While Deoxys-S could use attacks of many types and still "be broken" (mostly because of said coverage), Shaymin-s has to rely on a move with horrible offensive typing. While that ~65% chance of a Special fall (factoring in accuracy) is great, the 8 PP and typing can really hold it back. Unlike Outrage, which had great typing and was backed by an excellent boosting move, Seed Flare isn't as good or reliable on Shaymin-s.
• jrr's point about needing luck to be good.

These are just a few points I've been thinking about for awhile. The only reason I compared Shaymin to the other banned suspects are because (1) Those are the only Ubers that we actually know what they do to the standarad metagame and (2) I've seen 500 "if we banned chomp lets ban skymin" posts.

What do you think?

 

[IcyMan28]

Skymin is really underwhelming for various reasons, in my opinion. It's certainly really, really powerful, but it's got a good number of factors working against it.

While it's true you can list bad things about any Pokémon, I tried to emphasize the problems I pointed out by showing how they hinder it in battles. If anyone would like to "counter" these arguments, feel free and I'll try to respond. Remember though that the burden of proof is on the user favoring a ban, so debunking this doesn't mean it must be Uber...

• Skymin has "paper counters" as well as other valid responses. While "paper counters" are in general a flawed concept, they can be used to demonstrate a Pokémon's weaknesses or strengths to an extent. A lack of valid responses to Swords Dance Garchomp with a Yache Berry was one very common rationale for its Uber status, and this problem doesn't exist with Shaymin-s. In addition to paper counters (Registeel, Regice, Togekiss, Muk, Zapdos, Calm Blissey), Shaymin-s is seriously threatened by some of the metagame's most used Pokémon (Heatran, Scizor, Mamoswine). Of course the most common response to this claim is "overcentralizing", but unlike some Ubers, Shaymin actualyl has valid resonses that stop it from getting a "guaranteed kill".

Let's not forget that the overcentralization argument carries no weight when several of those pokemon have had increased uses due to their own potentials (post Garchomp Heatran, Bullet Punch Scizor, Heat Wave Zapdos, etc.).

• Skymin's power comes almost entirely from Seed Flare. While Deoxys-S could use attacks of many types and still "be broken" (mostly because of said coverage), Shaymin-s has to rely on a move with horrible offensive typing. While that ~65% chance of a Special fall (factoring in accuracy) is great, the 8 PP and typing can really hold it back. Unlike Outrage, which had great typing and was backed by an excellent boosting move, Seed Flare isn't as good or reliable on Shaymin-s.

This is one of the main reasons that Skymin is so underwhelming. As far as sweeping is concerned, Seed Flare is the only thing that stands out - everything else is unSTABed and can be easily resisted (its not that hard to bring in a ground immunity, and Air Slash has only 75 base power and steels have always been everywhere). When it comes to Subseeding, the only difference from Sceptile is that STAB Air Slash (which still fails against steels). Otherwise, nothing.

• jrr's point about needing luck to be good.

These are just a few points I've been thinking about for awhile. The only reason I compared Shaymin to the other banned suspects are because (1) Those are the only Ubers that we actually know what they do to the standarad metagame and (2) I've seen 500 "if we banned chomp lets ban skymin" posts.

What do you think?

Thoughts in bold.

 

[matty]

The only set that bothers me is the Sub-Seed set. It is basically like any other sub-seeder on crack. If you get the seed down, you can substuite and are faster than your opponent, you are in prime position to sweep someone along with your ability to Sp. Def Drop (which causes switches) and your flinching ability (which nets you "free" life back). When you couple that with say Toxic Spikes or SR/Spikes you can have a menace on your team. Other than that, Shaymin-S is only durable as long as its luck holds out, otherwise it is just dead weight. TBH, I'm not sure what I'd vote about it right now.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm crossposting this from the Skymin Discussion Thread.

As for what I think of Skymin? If it had something like Nasty Plot or Tail Glow, THEN I'd think it was broken. Garchomp wasn't broken just for hitting hard. It would stat up, survive with Yache, then HIT REALLY HARD. Skymin doesn't have the raw power (120 versus 130 Base SpA/Atk stats), nor the raw move power. Garchomp had a Base 120 STAB and a base 100 STAB, both in PHENOMENAL attacking types, both 100% accurate. Skymin has a Base 120 STAB and a Base 75 STAB, both in kinda mediocre attacking types. On top of that, they both have less than perfect accuracy, meaning a miss can ruin your day. Serene Grace is simply an overhyped ability. Togekiss is GREAT with Paraflinch for one main reason- When it does fail, Togekiss is still bulky enough to take the hit and keep on truckin. Skymin lacks that, so for the most part, if it doesn't flinch, it's dead.

Let's look at other sets. It can SubSeed, you say? Other things can do it FAR better, and have been doing it far longer than Skymin. Breloom, Celebi, and Sceptile all come to mind, and those sets aren't anything near broken. Substitute sets are kinda iffy too. The common set is going to be Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power/Substitute. By the time you've come into SR and set up a sub, you're already at 50% HP. And that's only if your opponent LETS you set up a sub. If they break it, then you're at 50% HP with no sub, and will probably have to switch out, ruining the rest of your Subbing days.

Let's look at counters. Sets without Earth Power are rocked by Heatran, sets without HP Fire are rocked by Scizor, and pretty much every set gets walled by Bronzong and Blissey. Dragonite can come in on non HP Ice sets, resist Seed Flare 4x, and OHKO with pretty much any SE attack while not getting flinched due to Inner Focus. Mamoswine, Weavile, and Donphan all carry Ice Shard, a 4x effective attack. So what if Donphan's isn't STABed. SR has probably chipped off that 25%, which means it's now strong enough to put Skymin out of commission. Regice has nuts Special Defense, Clear Body to negate drops, and STAB Ice attacks to put Skymin down. Registeel resists everything but Earth Power/HP Fire, has the same Clear Body, and has Ice Punch to finish off said Skymin. If Skymin happens to catch a Thunder Wave from the likes of Blissey or Celebi, then it's permanently out of commission (Garchomp was immune to TWave). Pretty much every counter to Skymin with the exception of Dragonite and the Regis was high OU before Skymin popped up.

Skymin has also done a great deal good for the metagame, IMO. It's probably the most efficient way to combat Bulky Waters ever to appear in Pokemon, with high-powered STAB Grass attacks and a good Special Attack stat to back it up. The biggest effect from this is that it gives a minor boost to Offensive teams that had problems breaking through walls like Swampert. Sure, Shaymin-G had the same powerful STAB move, but it had a terrible movepool, mediocre offensive stats (100/100/100 just isn't cutting it), and the complete inability to hurt anything that resisted grass (read: a shitload).

Oddly enough, the most effective set I ever ran was a completely ridiculous one unheardof when Skymin first arrived on the scene: Choice Scarf Skymin. The upsides are endless. Earth Power beats +Speed Heatran expecting to outspeed me. Air Slash can flinch the hell out of stuff given enough luck. HP Ice eliminates Salamence, who I now outspeed even after a DD. Seed Flare also takes out Tyranitar, even if it gets 2 DDs. It also smacks Gyarados even after a DD. And way back yonder in that speed-infested metagame, Modest Scarf Shaymin-S outsped Timid Scarfgar and lead Deoxys-S, which meant that Deoxys-S would get at most Stealth Rock and nothing more, and nothing at all if I flinched with Air Slash. Trick Gengar would also often try and drop its Scarf on me only to see me outspeed and him get another scarf in return.

All in all, I think Skymin has a positive effect on the metagame. It's powerful, but not out of hand, and it has the strength needed to put the completely overused Bulky Waters in their place. It's not overly defensive, it's strong but not too strong, it has no reliable boosting move, and the majority of its hard counters are all high OU already, so it's not really centralizing the metagame around itself.

 

[Venom]

I would honestly be OK if this thing did not have Serene Grace, because Serene Grace + Air Slash has fucked my battles over so bad, but I don't think we should be really be considering luck with this kind of issue, if it wasn't for Serene Grace it would be much cooler in OU, but Serene Grace is a fucking bitch

 

[IggyBot]

no way CHENN

in my opinion, Skymin might be easily stopped, but you need the right personell

Insert Heatran, or Zapdos, or Scizor, or any other threat where 'Skymin' is and that sentence is still true.

if a threat is demanding a specific list of counters, then it should be banned because thats basically what Garchomp was
Garchomp demanded you have certain pokemon on your team, and even then Garchomp took down at least one pokemon with it,

And your point is? First of all I see no sense in comparing Skymin and Garchomp considering they really don't have too much in common in terms of the way they were played. Second of all Skymin isn't 'dominating' it's counters consistantly, it needs to rely on Serene Grace (luck) to beat counters, which it can only do part of the time.

Skymin (and Scizor) have brought up Heatran's usage almost by themselves, and even then Heatran could be slaughtered by a predicted Earth Power, even though Naive scarftran is a supposed counter. Then Skymin can easily switch out, into something like Vaporeon or some other Bulky Water, take care of Heatran and then Skymin comes back in

Heatran usage was increasing before platinum's release because it's a great pokemon to do just about anything with. It can attack, counter, switch in easily, it's got good speed, ect. Does it help against Skymin? Obviously. Is Skymin the reason Scarf Heatran usage is rising? Most definitly not.

Zapdos cant switchin easily either, despite its status as a supposed counter, because HP Ice is a 2HKO with SR up

If it's got HP Ice then Scizor stops it. If not then Zapdos is still a good switch in.

so just because something has its counters, which everything does, doesnt mean its fair in a certain metagame. Skymin can easily beat Zapdos and Heatran with prediction, Blissey can switch in, and so can Registeel but Registeel fears a SpDef drop followed by an Earth Power.

Pokemon beats pokemon with move. So what? Yeah Heatran loses if it switches into Earth Power. But what if you're switching into Air Slash? Then Heatran wins. "What if" Zapdos switches into Earth Power? Then you win. Prediction works both ways so really just stop with the bad arguments all ready.

It may not be versatile, but neither was Garchomp really, and it is clearly, for the lack of a better word, overcentralizing the OU metagame

Besides the fact that the Smogon community does not acknowlage 'overcentralization' as a reason for banning a pokemon from a certain tier, we don't even have usage statistics yet. How can you even consider suggesting that Skymin of all things is 'overcentralizing' the OU metagame?

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Just to add on to what Iggy said, Registeel does not fear stat drops since it can't have any because of Clear Body. And unlike Garchomp, Shaymin has a long list of counters. It isn't overcentralizing to have a Zapdos, Blissey, Bronzong, Cresselia, Registeel, Heatran, Metagross, etc. on your team. Let's take Zapdos for example, the best way to take it down is to either SubSeed or Seed Flare on the switch with Stealth Rock in play and to receive a SpD drop.

 

[RaikouLover]

I'm actually a bit disappointed that this thing was the next priority in testing. I agree with all of the posters... it is extremely underwhelming, relies on luck... and is frail as shit. The most common offensive threats in the metagame, Heatran and Scizor, are fantastic "checks" against it. And to no surprise, I don't even see Skymin that often. I bet its usage isn't even that high.

To be honest. I hated this thing at first. But once you battle against it a few times, its actually a joke. It's only dangerous if your really unlucky, and it has a handful of surefire paper counters... unlike chompy chomp, who I didn't even think was broken.

Meh... we should be testing Lati@ or Manaphy :-(.

 

[cim]

I'm glad to see you've converted RaikouLover! I agree about the testing order, the sense of urgency that existed when shaymin was first introduced (and the testing order was decided) really isn't there anymore. Whatever, just a month until a landslide OU vote.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Yeah, I really wish the community had a say what would be next for suspect testing.

I personally find Salamence and Kingdra more menacing for the reasons why Rayquaza is incredibly scary in Ubers. They also have something over Skymin, reliability.

If you have a 95% accurate move that'll win matches 95% of the time you still are going to lose a 5% of the time. If it has a smidge bit of fallacy it cannot really be considered completely reliable, can it?

If you guys really worry about stat drops too much try Porygon2 with a White Herb and Recycle.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

MTI, quit saying stuff like that last part. First off, White Herb + Recycle is the definition of a specialized counter, which defines overcentralization, especially given that there is absolutely no reason to use either White Herb or Recycle on Porygon-2. Add in the fact that you can't use Skymin outside of local WiFi, making its use limited to Shoddy only for the most part, and Recycle isn't on Shoddy.

(carry on)

 

[mien]

I'm surprised nobody complained testing this pokemon requires another Full month

I mean i can't believe people need a month in order to reach those requirements, actually it forces me to continue playing ladder instead to keep my ranking. Every ''decent'' player can reach it in a week, top players even in a day.

I'm pretty sure after all this time everrybody here already knows what Skymin is capable off.

If every test will take so long the testing won't be finished when the 5th generation has come

 

[DT]

I dont get the point of testing it, Skymin sure is a big threat but BP/LO/SD Scizor can OHKO and it lacks a priotriy move, and a stat boosting move, sure it has an Insane SDef drop rate but unlike stat boosts dont last forever in a case where Skymin actually kills something, the huge SAtk advantage gained from seed flare is reset as soon as a new foe switches in, if skymin was passed SAtk though it be a bit more frighting but sicne most revenge killer can kill it with 1 ice beam its not even worth wasting time testing, as well as Lati twins get on to Manaphy Y.Y.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The point of testing it is because a completely new pokemon that certainly has potential was added into the game. When it was added, a new metagame was created. We needed to see if the new metagame was broken or not before moving forward, and the most significant thing separating the new metagame from the old one is Skymin. It is new, and the main reason why it was tested first was to get it out of the way and to appease the community, which is still largely caught up in Platinum hype. It is just really convenient to have a point of reference in case things go wrong, nobody is trying to oppress the community or shut out its voice. This just needs to get done properly or there is no point in doing it at all.

On paper, Skymin is really good. People realized this right off the bat. Obviously now that we have some actual experience with it, things are going to look clearer and clearer by the day. Hindsight is 20/20, but that doesn't have much impact on what the future brings.

Just to make sure what we're doing is right, we still need to wait it out to discover Skymin's true potential. Look at what happened with Deoxys-S! We waited, voted, and because of the huge Bronzong + Cresselia shift, Deoxys' offensive set wasn't the broken sweeper it once was. Then, the DS Deoxys came around, as did the fast spike layer, and people FINALLY realized the full picture.

The biggest mistakes that would potentially come out of a test like this would all stem from rushing into it. Let's take a little longer now and be sure, because its going to be a long time before Skymin gets retested (after all of the suspects).

MTI, quit saying stuff like that last part. First off, White Herb + Recycle is the definition of a specialized counter, which defines overcentralization, especially given that there is absolutely no reason to use either White Herb or Recycle on Porygon-2. Add in the fact that you can't use Skymin outside of local WiFi, making its use limited to Shoddy only for the most part, and Recycle isn't on Shoddy.

(carry on)

Considering what the rest of his post said, I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

 

[Darkflagrance]

The thing is though, Skymin doesn't have as much of a viable movepool as DS did. What will people come up with, DS Skymin? It's not difficult to predict the moveset of a Skymin; it only has a few viable moves and two strategies (sweeping and subseeding). We can easily get the measure of this without needing much time.

 

[Darkmalice]

I dont get the point of testing it, Skymin sure is a big threat but BP/LO/SD Scizor can OHKO and it lacks a priotriy move, and a stat boosting move, sure it has an Insane SDef drop rate but unlike stat boosts dont last forever in a case where Skymin actually kills something, the huge SAtk advantage gained from seed flare is reset as soon as a new foe switches in, if skymin was passed SAtk though it be a bit more frighting but sicne most revenge killer can kill it with 1 ice beam its not even worth wasting time testing, as well as Lati twins get on to Manaphy Y.Y.

Scizor OHKOs with a Bug move, not Bullet Punch. If Scizor swaps into Air Slash, he gets 2HKOed.

I would honestly be OK if this thing did not have Serene Grace, because Serene Grace + Air Slash has fucked my battles over so bad, but I don't think we should be really be considering luck with this kind of issue, if it wasn't for Serene Grace it would be much cooler in OU, but Serene Grace is a fucking bitch

Luck can screw over Skymin's counters, which is similar to how an Ice Beam could miss Garchomp in Sandstorm (except Skymin's luck is much easily to activate) and end up costing you the game.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Luck can screw over Skymin's counters, which is similar to how an Ice Beam could miss Garchomp in Sandstorm (except Skymin's luck is much easily to activate) and end up costing you the game.

It's not the same; Garchomp had no absolute counters. Those were the revenge killers failing due to Garchomp's ability. Shaymin has definite counters and if you are completely haxed to death, it is always a guarantee that Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, etc. will do the job.