Skymin Discussion Thread

I'm going to agree with Syb about banning based on luck actually being something viable to consider.

In the end, the bans/non-bans of our suspect ladder system come down to (in part) what the skilled players like-dislike. One thing skilled players really dislike is losing to unskilled players, and one of the reasons that Garchomp got banned was because it evened the field a bit more. The difference between skilled and non-skilled becamse closer when it came down to "Who sets up Garchomp first." (anyone see the Garchomp + Serebii noob video on youtube? As retarded as Youtube got, I'm sure there's some truth to the fact that sometimes really good players got sandveil haxed and ended up losing to serebii newbs via outrage sweeps)

As Syb has mentioned a couple of times (and I agree), 95% of the time Skymin does nothing. The other 5% are really f'd up, and can even let someone with a 1000 rating beat someone at the top of the leaderboard, so one could say skymin also brings the top and the bottom closer.

We all know skymin is not broken-- it's just annoying. Potentially really annoying. If people are annoyed enough, they will vote to ban it. Right now though I don't feel that's the general consensus. It is after all, very underpowered, and even celebi will find itself on more high-ranking teams that win consistantly than skymin (I don't think I've ever come across a player with a 1600+ conservative rating who was using skymin).

I do however, favor it being around because it gives users of bulky water types just one more thing in the metagame to think about . . . ie, having skymin around prevents me from seeing suicune, starmie and swampert on THE SAME TEAM too often, which I'm thankful of. >>
 
ChouToshio said:
I'm going to agree with Syb about banning based on luck actually being something viable to consider.

In the end, the bans/non-bans of our suspect ladder system come down to (in part) what the skilled players like-dislike. One thing skilled players really dislike is losing to unskilled players, and one of the reasons that Garchomp got banned was because it evened the field a bit more. The difference between skilled and non-skilled becamse closer when it came down to "Who sets up Garchomp first." (anyone see the Garchomp + Serebii noob video on youtube? As retarded as Youtube got, I'm sure there's some truth to the fact that sometimes really good players got sandveil haxed and ended up losing to serebii newbs via outrage sweeps)

As Syb has mentioned a couple of times (and I agree), 95% of the time Skymin does nothing. The other 5% are really f'd up, and can even let someone with a 1000 rating beat someone at the top of the leaderboard, so one could say skymin also brings the top and the bottom closer.

We all know skymin is not broken-- it's just annoying. Potentially really annoying. If people are annoyed enough, they will vote to ban it. Right now though I don't feel that's the general consensus. It is after all, very underpowered, and even celebi will find itself on more high-ranking teams that win consistantly than skymin (I don't think I've ever come across a player with a 1600+ conservative rating who was using skymin).

I do however, favor it being around because it gives users of bulky water types just one more thing in the metagame to think about . . . ie, having skymin around prevents me from seeing suicune, starmie and swampert on THE SAME TEAM too often, which I'm thankful of. >>
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If it doesn't do anything 5% of the time, it is really not worth banning. People get screwed over way more because of mechanics than because of this. If people realise it's a worthless poke in 95% of cases anyway, no one will use it and it won't be banned. It's that simple. If you want to create a metagame without luck, try it, but don't ban Pokemon because people get annoyed by it.
 
You don't have to convince me dude, I'm in the non-ban camp (if you somehow failed to notice). I was just honestly summarizing where I thought the opposing view point had a legitimate point to make (insofar as it does).

I agree with you that it's not reason enough to ban skymin.
 
I currently have 4 accounts eligible to vote for Skymin. I'm not sure if we are allowed a vote for every account we have - I'm assuming we don't - but as of yet I am still undecided which way to cast my vote when the time comes.

Having used Skymin quite a bit since the Platinum changes were incorporated, I have to say it is not nearly as bad some of you are saying (Chou, your arguments are very well presented if a little biased). Skymin is, in a lot of ways, like Scizor. Both were brought to light with the new changes. Both have many counters in the top 10 pokemon (Zapdos, Heatran, Gyarados, Blissey). And both can sweep extremely easily once these counters have been weakened or removed.

As far as all out sweeping goes, I find Skymin's abilities to equal those of something like, say, Jolteon. Not very memorable, unless you have a weakened team with nothing faster. In this right, I think Skymin is securely OU.

But what does annoy me when I'm using Skymin is how much luck can help it sweep. A lot of you have been talking about the chances of it beating Blissey, etc, and have concluded that they are abysmally low. Well the reality of it is, no sensible user of Skymin will keep it in on Blissey in the first place. But what Skymin can do is very easily beat things such as Salamence and Gyarados with its Air Slash, which is more likely to flinch than to not flinch. It is this cheap double shot, this 'hax', that takes the satisfaction from winning with the little flying hedgehog.

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for my opponents.
 
Legacy Raider said:
I currently have 4 accounts eligible to vote for Skymin. I'm not sure if we are allowed a vote for every account we have - I'm assuming we don't - but as of yet I am still undecided which way to cast my vote when the time comes.

Having used Skymin quite a bit since the Platinum changes were incorporated, I have to say it is not nearly as bad some of you are saying (Chou, your arguments are very well presented if a little biased). Skymin is, in a lot of ways, like Scizor. Both were brought to light with the new changes. Both have many counters in the top 10 pokemon (Zapdos, Heatran, Gyarados, Blissey). And both can sweep extremely easily once these counters have been weakened or removed.

As far as all out sweeping goes, I find Skymin's abilities to equal those of something like, say, Jolteon. Not very memorable, unless you have a weakened team with nothing faster. In this right, I think Skymin is securely OU.

But what does annoy me when I'm using Skymin is how much luck can help it sweep. A lot of you have been talking about the chances of it beating Blissey, etc, and have concluded that they are abysmally low. Well the reality of it is, no sensible user of Skymin will keep it in on Blissey in the first place. But Skymin can very easily beat things such as Salamence and Gyarados with its Air Slash, which is more likely to flinch than to not flinch. It is this cheap double shot, this 'hax', that takes the satisfaction from winning with the little flying hedgehog.

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for my opponent.
Click to expand...

-Togekiss and Jirachi also have Serene Grace, and abuse them effectively. The only difference is that Skymin has much more speed. Togekiss and Jirachi can remedy this with Body Slam / Thunder Wave (thus supporting the team as well as themselves), and are much sturdier. Jirachi has a very large and viable movepool to use to the fullest with its ability, and as for the annoyance of flinchhax people have been saying this since the beginning of DP, probably before.

-The fact that, as you mentioned, Skymin must rely on luck to take out alot of opposing pokemon (and still is only #10 for all its so-called uberness) shows that it belongs in the OU environment.
 
While I haven't played against alot of Skymins lately, the few times that I HAVE played against one, it was handled fairly easily.

However, there were exceptions, like when it continues to Flinch over and over again, to the point where none of my mons could do anything to react to it again. That amazing speed helps out alot, since I can't outspeed it without using something fast. And usually, when I use something fast, it gets killed in one or two shots, since it's so fragile.

But really, Skymin depends heavily on luck. Without the hax, Skymin can be easily taken care of by many pokemons. Skymin has counters, it's just that Skymin has alot of luck, and that luck allows it to beat its counters from time to time. But like I said, thats just it - since luck allows any pokemon to beat another pokemon. It's just that with Skymin, you're having MORE luck (flinch and SpD drops) as oppose to other things (ParaHax or Crits)

In conclusion, I feel that Skymin isn't all that bad, it's just a little annoying.
 
@Legacy Rider-- I have no doubt it's not going anywhere near BL either. It's definitely OU. Being a good OU poke doesn't make you uber though. (and no, you're not supposed to vote for each account, any of the players skilled enough could make 3-4 and get them in the right place easily enough).
 
Stathakis said:
yea guys skymin is annoying and haxxy so is parafusion and zap cannon lets ban them all!
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guys despite my sarcasm and inconherence I do bring up a good point. generally we don't ban things like parafusion and low acc high payoff moves, so why should we be banning skymin?

I mean, if this is the case, we should also be banning anything with hypnosis, sing/bellydrum azumarill, hell, we should ban outragemence for the chance to really fuck up your opponent for 3 turns rather than 2!

okay, I'm getting sarcastic again. but seriously, how can we just say "it brings luck into the game let's ban it."
 
Stathakis-- I think you're missing a fact that overall it seems like the majority is on your (our) side-- that is that most of the players who will be able to vote are leaning towards OU. At this point it's up to those crying for ubers to show us something that proves otherwise. As much hype as Skymin got at its debut, there are very few players still arguing it as uber. It's like Rhyperior.

Heck, I actually have more trouble taking down rhyperior.

I mean, I had like 30 battles today and saw a total of 1 skymin.
 
I'm going to do significant laddering with Skymin today and will edit this post with some feedback. I mean I haven't even used all of the sets. I guess my viewpoint has been from fighting it, as I can only remember using the Choice sets when I used it.
 
IMHO, I prefer Celebi for seeding (no sr weak and can sponge hits) and Togekiss for special-flying sweeping/flinch haxing (doesn't die in one hit, has nasty plot).

Kinda cool that it can do both but it's really nothing special.
 
Perhaps it's only the people who are getting haxed to hell by Skymin that want it banned to ubers. In the case of Deoxys-S, some argued that the Dual Screen lead reduced the game to a coinflip Taunt at the beginning, taking the skill out of the game. Although I would argue that Skymin does take the hax factor to another level, in practice it's not all that great because people use offensive checks to it, who are not as prone to getting haxed to death.
 
If you haven't been haxed to death by it once or twice, I'd say ladder more. On the other hand, I get haxed to death by gliscor about as often or even more often so . . .

Actually if we want to bitch about hax, I'd have to say machamp is my #1 gripe. A much lower #2 being getting paralyzed by zappy's thunderbolt. lol
 
the_artic_one said:
IMHO, I prefer Celebi for seeding (no sr weak and can sponge hits) and Togekiss for special-flying sweeping/flinch haxing (doesn't die in one hit, has nasty plot).

Kinda cool that it can do both but it's really nothing special.
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Skymin is more fragile but I think it's a superior SubSeeder compared to Celebi. Often, people use Grass types (well, Celebi mostly lol) to "counter" Leech Seed. Skymin laughs at those with STAB'd Air Slash. Oh, yeah the 125 base Speed doesn't hurt.
 
^127.

Also, what is this about using grass types to counter leech seed? Celebi and Skymin are the only 2 OU grass types anyway. The odds of seeing a grass type on both teams is ridiculously low. I can't see the # of useable grass types in OU increasing as a bad thing.

Thing is that grass is such a crappy STAB type, and such a crappy defensive type, you've got to either be as "uber" as skymin or have celebi's bulk + recover just to get into OU.

Seeing a grass type in the top 10 of OU (admittedly barely hanging on and likely to drop below metagross soon) is a freaking miracle. Let's see roserade or sceptile even have a chance.
 
Oh, yeah. 127 base Speed. >_>

Maybe it's just me but I find SubSeed really, really annoying once it gets started. Being able to effectively counter it is really why I love using Celebi. But like you said, Grass types aren't really that common so it's probably just an irrational fear of mine when I make teams that aren't full of sweepers (such that SubSeeders can't set up effectively).

As for Skymin, I can't really say it should be banned. Probably because I hardly ever see one nowadays. <_< Kinda similar to the early days of Deoxys-S being unbanned lol. (blah blah blah narrower movepool)
 
If someone discovers the ultra-set that puts it on the map we can always ban it at some future date. As for now, the thing is underwhelming, and as you said, barely ever around. :P
 
After more months of playing, it definitely seems clear that he lack's Salamance's raw power with Outrage, thanks to Grass being resisted by more pokemon and DD.

So if Skymin does become Uber, it'll be because of the luck factor with a decent chance of screwing up almost everything or some miracle set, not raw power. Possibly backed up by Wish, as she seems to be a good Wish recipient.

Plus I don't think I'll be voting for Skymin, because I won't have access to a computer for the 4 days leading to and including Nov 29th.
 
. . . you do realize that it will take several days after the 28th for them to compile a list of everyone who made the cut, and then to get the vote going right?
 
ChouToshio said:
. . . you do realize that it will take several days after the 28th for them to compile a list of everyone who made the cut, and then to get the vote going right?
Click to expand...

No. I assumed that they would download the list from Nov 29th, and then use that list to prepare for the voting, however long that would take.
 
Mostly for entertainment value:

Code: 
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Legacy Raider sent out Infernape (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
_superboy_ sent out Jolteon (lvl 100 Jolteon ?).
Infernape used Fake Out.
Jolteon lost 18% of its health.
Jolteon flinched!
---
Jolteon used Thunderbolt.
Infernape lost 100% of its health.
Infernape hung on using its Focus Sash!
Jolteon lost 10% of its health.
Infernape used Close Combat.
Jolteon lost 72% of its health.
_superboy_'s Jolteon fainted.
Infernape's defence was lowered.
Infernape's special defence was lowered.
---
_superboy_ switched in Shaymin-s (lvl 100 Shaymin-s).
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Infernape lost 0% of its health.
Legacy Raider's Infernape fainted.
Shaymin-s lost 10% of its health.
---
Legacy Raider switched in Shaymin-s (lvl 100 Shaymin-s).
_superboy_ switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
Milotic lost 27% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Milotic used Hypnosis.
Milotic's attack missed!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Seed Flare.
It's super effective!
Milotic lost 85% of its health.
_superboy_'s Milotic fainted.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Shaymin-s used Leech Seed.
Metagross was seeded!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Metagross's attack missed!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Metagross lost 20% of its health.
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross used Agility.
Metagross's speed was sharply raised.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Metagross's attack missed!
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
But it failed!
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 6% of its health.
_superboy_'s Metagross fainted.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Shaymin-s used Leech Seed.
Gliscor was seeded!
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's health was sapped by leech seed!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 8% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's health was sapped by leech seed!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 13% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's health was sapped by leech seed!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 13% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Heracross (lvl 100 Heracross ?).
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Heracross lost 100% of its health.
_superboy_'s Heracross fainted.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Shaymin-s (lvl 100 Shaymin-s).
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Shaymin-s lost 90% of its health.
_superboy_'s Shaymin-s fainted.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ has left the room.
Legacy Raider wins!
 
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