Shaymin-S testing and voting is coming to a close, so I have received comfirmation that Lati@ are next.. so I decided to open the thread in my immense anticipation to their arrival!
Disclaimer: Please do not make pointless posts about should it be put in Uber or OU. If you want to say something useful, please support with either examples or math. Other than that, this thread is completely friendly just for plain Lati@ facts and opinions. Keep it organized and on-topic.
So, it has been confirmed that the next test will be on the Lati twins in OU. I don't know about you guys but I am VERY excited to test these two pokemon, as I love using them in-game. So the question at hand is... are they OU without their trademark item: Soul Dew. For those of you who don't know, Soul Dew boosts their already great special stats by 1.5X, effectively giving them a Calm Mind boost. The proposition for them in OU will really determine how much of a difference that makes in their effectiveness. So.. without further a do.. lets go into greater detail!
Speed: So perhaps the first thing that will come to mind when these two new pokemon debut into OU will be the speed factor. Latios and Latias are the fastest Dragon's we have ever used in OU which is their biggest advantage over the other Dragons. They share the same speed tier as Gengar and Tauros, meaning they can comfortably outspeed Infernape and all of the base 100 pokemon out there, including their fellow dragons, Flygon and Salamence. The amount of speed you run should be tailored the the specific role you want and is something you should consider first when trying out any of their sets. I will discuss possibilities in detail, but always keep this in mind!
Latios
Latios is the offensive stud of the two dragons, capable of dishing out damage on either side of the spectrum. He boasts a broader offensive movepool and higher attacking stats in exchange for lower defenses. If you want to use one of the twins for sweeping, Latios will usually be your man. Expect him to be among the elite damage dealers in OU! For your viewing pleasure, some general information is in order.
Base Stats ( HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe):
80 / 90 / 80 / 130 / 110 / 110
Total: 600
Unique movepool:
Dragon Dance, Luster Purge, Momento
Weaknesses:
Ice, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
Resistances:
Fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Psychic
Immunities:
Ground, Spikes, Toxic Spikes!
Pros: Latios has some excellent options going for it offensively. The no weakness to Stealth Rock and immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes are crucial, as well as being a psychic type grants it Trick. It's faster than many pokemon and has the movepool to lay a hurt on most things. Dragon is its main STAB, which offers plenty of neutrality which is good.
Cons: Latios lacks a good fire move and has to rely on Hidden Power Fire to hurt steels. It's isn't nearly as bulky as people like to think, as things like CB Mamoswine and Weavile can still do upwards of 70% with Ice Shard. Scizor's bullet punch takes a lot off to. To make matters worse, pursuit can really seal its fate if you mispredict.
Here is the fun part! What kind of sets do you have for us RaikouLover????
Well, I've arranged them in order of what I think will be effectiveness. I've reconfigured some of them entirely and will be posting them in creative moveset format.
WARNING: These sets are explosive!
[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Surf
move 4: Recover / Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
This will be the bread and butter Latios set... Fast, powerful, and will sweep teams in the blink of an eye. No need for Grass Knot or HP Fighting here, since a Timid Life Orbed Surf will do a minimum of 45% to a Max HP Tyranitar, and 48% to a Max HP Scizor... Scizor better start packing Special Defense EVs!!! Hidden Power Fire is more for Bronzong than it is for Scizor, as a +1 Hidden Power Fire has a 70% chance to 2HKO your Smogon standard Bronzong.
Sex Appeal: *****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: MixLatios
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
IVs: 29 HP
evs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 212 Spe
This is one bad mamma jamma! This won't pack quite as much power as double deuce but is faster and will catch some things off guard. Draco Meteor everything to oblivion... then let the other moves do the rest. Here are some damage calculations:
Draco Meteor vs. Standard Blissey: 26-31%
Outrage vs. Standard Blissey: 60-71% (Bliss yells... mummy).
Surf vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 42-50%
Earthquake vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 51-60%
Earthquake vs. Max HP Empoleon: 66-78%
Surf vs. Max HP Scizor: 45-53%
Surf vs. Max HP Metagross: 38-45%
Earthquake vs. Max HP Metagross: 48-59%
So basically, Draco Meteor or Surf are the primary attacks, and Outrage and Earthquake will let you power through common counters. Outrage is still nothing to laugh at coming from a 279 Attack stat with a Life Orb... move over Mixmence!
Sex Appeal: *****
Explosiveness: *****
Sweepiness: ****
[SET]
name: Draco-Shift [or Psycho Dragon]
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Psycho Shift / Psych Up
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest / Timid
evs1: 152 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe [Modest]
evs2: 72 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe [Timid]
Works the same way as Draco-shifting Latias cept is going to hit even harder... Psych Up is decent for pokemon like Celebi who can take a meteor and will just recover it off... Psych Up on the recover then go for the kill! Psycho shift passes on status such as Thunder-Wave, and the HP EVs will keep you a good switch into Infernape, Zapdos, and a few other things. The small speed investment is of no consequence since the extra power is just brutal on this bad boy. If you want to outspeed all Salamence / Flygon, you have to switch to Timid and use the second spread. If you don't care for those two, use the first spread for a much more power.
Sex Appeal: *****
Explosiveness: *****
Sweepiness: ****
[SET]
name: SpecsLatios
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Dragon Pulse / Psychic
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nothing new here.
Sex Appeal: ***
Explosiveness: *****
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: Dragon Dance (Mixed)
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naughty
IVs: 27 SpD
evs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 212 Spe
Salamence does this better. Or does it???? Look at Latias targets and how they get totaled by this set. Also... look at some of the Physical wall anihilation:
+1 Earthquake vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 83-98% (66.67% OHKO w/ SR)
+1 Earthquake vs. Max HP Empoleon: 100%
+1 Outrage vs. Max Def Blissey: 99-100% (92% OHKO)
+1 Earthquake vs. Max HP Metagross: 80-94% (2% OHKO w/ SR, 41% with 1 Spikes)
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP / 88 SpD Hippowdon: 72-85%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Vaporeon: 58-68%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Celebi: 63-75% (2HKO on switch in)
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Suicune: 56-66%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Zapdos: 73-85% (80% OHKO w/ SR)
+1 Outrage vs. Max HP / Max Def Suicune: 53-63%
+1 Outrage vs. Max HP / 220 Def Celebi: 60-70%
+1 Outrage vs. Max HP / Max Def Vaporeon: 69-82%
This thing could cause a rout!
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Dragon Claw / Thunderbolt / Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant
IVs: 28 HP
evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
I gave you the legal IVs on all these sets, this one will give you good life orb number. Anyway, physical Dragon Dance just use the calcs above and you get the same thing but with better defenses so you can switch into Heatran. Thunderbolt will OHKO Skarmory even with an adamant nature, and will do the same to Gyarados and Starmie if you don't want to lock yourself in early.
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ***
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: TrickBand
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Trick
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant / Jolly
IVs: 24 SpA
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Cool set. Mauls switch-ins with the approriate move. Trick a Choice Band onto Skarmory or Bronzong and take them out with Magnezone. Then go for the sweep later.
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: ****
[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Zen Headbutt
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant / Jolly
IVs: 24 SpA
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Same as above, just a general attack though with Zen Headbutt as another option. Dragon Claw is also safer to use.
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: ****
If you have any explosive sets... just post em in the thread!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
So what about his sister (or are they lovers?)? Well... here she is!
Latias
Latias is the more defensive of the dragons, and excels at supporting the team. Thanks to Calm Mind, she can still pose a severe sweeping threat, but focuses more on the bulky aspect because she has the stats to support it. I like her diversity a little more since she can run an insane amount of options and can really be molded to fit most holes in your team. Again, general information first:
Base Stats ( HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe):
80 / 80 / 90 / 110 / 130 / 110
Total: 600
Unique movepool:
Wish, Charm, Healing Wish
Weaknesses:
Ice, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
Resistances:
Fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Psychic
Immunities:
Ground, Spikes, Toxic Spikes!
Pros: Latias is definately more sturdy, so most of her sets reflect that. She is less susceptable to high power priority strikes, and has the movepool to preserve her life when Tyranitar shows up. She can counter many of OU's biggest threats including Infernape, Shaymin-S to an extent, Gyarados, Heatran, Azelf, and others.
Cons: She has to waste a moveslot just because of Tyranitar. She is a lot more predictable offensively because she doesn't have any physical movepool to speak of and no way to boost it.
RaikouLover... anymore sets left? Yup. After a month of testing... Latias sets can be contributed and scouted at the Latias analysis workshop!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50862
Team Support:
So, who helps them out? Well you noticed their lack of good Fire move, which makes Magnezone a prime contender to help take out steels. Tyranitar likes to prey on them, so a good Tyranitar check such as Dugtrio (also helps with Steels and Blissey to an extent) or a strong fighting pokemon like Machamp can help out. Other than that, they should be helping your team more than you will probably need to help them!
Counters???
Despite the general notion about them being overpowered, I find there are sufficient ways to deal with them. Their main counter is the four moveslot syndrome, and the I can't do shit to steel type pokemon syndrome! So steels are the first counters that come to mind. You see the prevelance of Scizor and Metagross and Ubers and it will be no different when the arrive in OU. Hell, the #2 pokemon in the game counters them extremely well so I don't see a problem there. Tyranitar does quite well against Latias, as she has to go out of her way to prevent her death, and she may end up staying in and wishing and getting her ass Crunched to death. Weavile can do the same thing, preying on both of them with pretty much everything it has. Mamoswine deals heavy damage, particularly to Latios, who takes 67-80% from a Life Orbed Ice Shard unless it has more than minimum defenses. Yanmega will beat them one on one easily if you bother to lead with it them. Blissey gives them plenty of trouble if they lack a status protection move or Trick. Bronzong can come in on anything and do heavy damage with Gyro Ball, and even Trick a Choice Band onto them if they continuously try to recover every time he comes in. Heracross destroys them with Megahorn and can Pursuit them also. Registeel can come in on anything and status them with Thunderwave, or Curse up and start doing damage with Iron Head. In general, they don't like status if they don't devote one of their valued moveslots to protecting against it. Gengar speed ties with them but usually runs Scarf and can do good damage with Shadow Ball. Mismagius and Spritomb might be able to Calm Mind up with them if they come in immediately (specifically Spiritomb who can rest it off). Cacturne, Hounchcrow, and Absol can play serious guessing games with them but really don't want to switch in. Other than that, they aren't too hard to beat because they aren't nearly as sturdy as you would think. The loss of Soul Dew gives you an extra turn to deal with them, so just be quick in your countering.
Metagame Analysis:
My main pleasure really is speculating how much they will change the metagame. I wouldn't say the will be too overcentralizing the way Garchomp was, but they will certainly shake things up a bit, and most likely knock Heatran and Zapdos down a notch, while raising Scizor to #1 and Tyranitar to the top 3 probably, which consequently increases Sandstorm-type pokemon usuage on a whole. Mamo will come back to power, and steel pokemon might dominate a little more than they used to. However, I don't think too much will change beyond that.
This concludes my thread... so rate, hate, steal! No, jk... discuss the possibilites and potential of the Lati@ twins!!!!
Disclaimer: Please do not make pointless posts about should it be put in Uber or OU. If you want to say something useful, please support with either examples or math. Other than that, this thread is completely friendly just for plain Lati@ facts and opinions. Keep it organized and on-topic.
So, it has been confirmed that the next test will be on the Lati twins in OU. I don't know about you guys but I am VERY excited to test these two pokemon, as I love using them in-game. So the question at hand is... are they OU without their trademark item: Soul Dew. For those of you who don't know, Soul Dew boosts their already great special stats by 1.5X, effectively giving them a Calm Mind boost. The proposition for them in OU will really determine how much of a difference that makes in their effectiveness. So.. without further a do.. lets go into greater detail!
Speed: So perhaps the first thing that will come to mind when these two new pokemon debut into OU will be the speed factor. Latios and Latias are the fastest Dragon's we have ever used in OU which is their biggest advantage over the other Dragons. They share the same speed tier as Gengar and Tauros, meaning they can comfortably outspeed Infernape and all of the base 100 pokemon out there, including their fellow dragons, Flygon and Salamence. The amount of speed you run should be tailored the the specific role you want and is something you should consider first when trying out any of their sets. I will discuss possibilities in detail, but always keep this in mind!
Latios
Latios is the offensive stud of the two dragons, capable of dishing out damage on either side of the spectrum. He boasts a broader offensive movepool and higher attacking stats in exchange for lower defenses. If you want to use one of the twins for sweeping, Latios will usually be your man. Expect him to be among the elite damage dealers in OU! For your viewing pleasure, some general information is in order.
Base Stats ( HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe):
80 / 90 / 80 / 130 / 110 / 110
Total: 600
Unique movepool:
Dragon Dance, Luster Purge, Momento
Weaknesses:
Ice, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
Resistances:
Fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Psychic
Immunities:
Ground, Spikes, Toxic Spikes!
Pros: Latios has some excellent options going for it offensively. The no weakness to Stealth Rock and immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes are crucial, as well as being a psychic type grants it Trick. It's faster than many pokemon and has the movepool to lay a hurt on most things. Dragon is its main STAB, which offers plenty of neutrality which is good.
Cons: Latios lacks a good fire move and has to rely on Hidden Power Fire to hurt steels. It's isn't nearly as bulky as people like to think, as things like CB Mamoswine and Weavile can still do upwards of 70% with Ice Shard. Scizor's bullet punch takes a lot off to. To make matters worse, pursuit can really seal its fate if you mispredict.
Here is the fun part! What kind of sets do you have for us RaikouLover????
Well, I've arranged them in order of what I think will be effectiveness. I've reconfigured some of them entirely and will be posting them in creative moveset format.
WARNING: These sets are explosive!
[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Surf
move 4: Recover / Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
This will be the bread and butter Latios set... Fast, powerful, and will sweep teams in the blink of an eye. No need for Grass Knot or HP Fighting here, since a Timid Life Orbed Surf will do a minimum of 45% to a Max HP Tyranitar, and 48% to a Max HP Scizor... Scizor better start packing Special Defense EVs!!! Hidden Power Fire is more for Bronzong than it is for Scizor, as a +1 Hidden Power Fire has a 70% chance to 2HKO your Smogon standard Bronzong.
Sex Appeal: *****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: MixLatios
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
IVs: 29 HP
evs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 212 Spe
This is one bad mamma jamma! This won't pack quite as much power as double deuce but is faster and will catch some things off guard. Draco Meteor everything to oblivion... then let the other moves do the rest. Here are some damage calculations:
Draco Meteor vs. Standard Blissey: 26-31%
Outrage vs. Standard Blissey: 60-71% (Bliss yells... mummy).
Surf vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 42-50%
Earthquake vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 51-60%
Earthquake vs. Max HP Empoleon: 66-78%
Surf vs. Max HP Scizor: 45-53%
Surf vs. Max HP Metagross: 38-45%
Earthquake vs. Max HP Metagross: 48-59%
So basically, Draco Meteor or Surf are the primary attacks, and Outrage and Earthquake will let you power through common counters. Outrage is still nothing to laugh at coming from a 279 Attack stat with a Life Orb... move over Mixmence!
Sex Appeal: *****
Explosiveness: *****
Sweepiness: ****
[SET]
name: Draco-Shift [or Psycho Dragon]
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Psycho Shift / Psych Up
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest / Timid
evs1: 152 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe [Modest]
evs2: 72 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe [Timid]
Works the same way as Draco-shifting Latias cept is going to hit even harder... Psych Up is decent for pokemon like Celebi who can take a meteor and will just recover it off... Psych Up on the recover then go for the kill! Psycho shift passes on status such as Thunder-Wave, and the HP EVs will keep you a good switch into Infernape, Zapdos, and a few other things. The small speed investment is of no consequence since the extra power is just brutal on this bad boy. If you want to outspeed all Salamence / Flygon, you have to switch to Timid and use the second spread. If you don't care for those two, use the first spread for a much more power.
Sex Appeal: *****
Explosiveness: *****
Sweepiness: ****
[SET]
name: SpecsLatios
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Dragon Pulse / Psychic
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nothing new here.
Sex Appeal: ***
Explosiveness: *****
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: Dragon Dance (Mixed)
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naughty
IVs: 27 SpD
evs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 212 Spe
Salamence does this better. Or does it???? Look at Latias targets and how they get totaled by this set. Also... look at some of the Physical wall anihilation:
+1 Earthquake vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 83-98% (66.67% OHKO w/ SR)
+1 Earthquake vs. Max HP Empoleon: 100%
+1 Outrage vs. Max Def Blissey: 99-100% (92% OHKO)
+1 Earthquake vs. Max HP Metagross: 80-94% (2% OHKO w/ SR, 41% with 1 Spikes)
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP / 88 SpD Hippowdon: 72-85%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Vaporeon: 58-68%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Celebi: 63-75% (2HKO on switch in)
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Suicune: 56-66%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Zapdos: 73-85% (80% OHKO w/ SR)
+1 Outrage vs. Max HP / Max Def Suicune: 53-63%
+1 Outrage vs. Max HP / 220 Def Celebi: 60-70%
+1 Outrage vs. Max HP / Max Def Vaporeon: 69-82%
This thing could cause a rout!
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Dragon Claw / Thunderbolt / Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant
IVs: 28 HP
evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
I gave you the legal IVs on all these sets, this one will give you good life orb number. Anyway, physical Dragon Dance just use the calcs above and you get the same thing but with better defenses so you can switch into Heatran. Thunderbolt will OHKO Skarmory even with an adamant nature, and will do the same to Gyarados and Starmie if you don't want to lock yourself in early.
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ***
Sweepiness: *****
[SET]
name: TrickBand
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Trick
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant / Jolly
IVs: 24 SpA
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Cool set. Mauls switch-ins with the approriate move. Trick a Choice Band onto Skarmory or Bronzong and take them out with Magnezone. Then go for the sweep later.
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: ****
[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Zen Headbutt
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant / Jolly
IVs: 24 SpA
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Same as above, just a general attack though with Zen Headbutt as another option. Dragon Claw is also safer to use.
Sex Appeal: ****
Explosiveness: ****
Sweepiness: ****
If you have any explosive sets... just post em in the thread!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
So what about his sister (or are they lovers?)? Well... here she is!
Latias
Latias is the more defensive of the dragons, and excels at supporting the team. Thanks to Calm Mind, she can still pose a severe sweeping threat, but focuses more on the bulky aspect because she has the stats to support it. I like her diversity a little more since she can run an insane amount of options and can really be molded to fit most holes in your team. Again, general information first:
Base Stats ( HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe):
80 / 80 / 90 / 110 / 130 / 110
Total: 600
Unique movepool:
Wish, Charm, Healing Wish
Weaknesses:
Ice, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
Resistances:
Fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Psychic
Immunities:
Ground, Spikes, Toxic Spikes!
Pros: Latias is definately more sturdy, so most of her sets reflect that. She is less susceptable to high power priority strikes, and has the movepool to preserve her life when Tyranitar shows up. She can counter many of OU's biggest threats including Infernape, Shaymin-S to an extent, Gyarados, Heatran, Azelf, and others.
Cons: She has to waste a moveslot just because of Tyranitar. She is a lot more predictable offensively because she doesn't have any physical movepool to speak of and no way to boost it.
RaikouLover... anymore sets left? Yup. After a month of testing... Latias sets can be contributed and scouted at the Latias analysis workshop!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50862
Team Support:
So, who helps them out? Well you noticed their lack of good Fire move, which makes Magnezone a prime contender to help take out steels. Tyranitar likes to prey on them, so a good Tyranitar check such as Dugtrio (also helps with Steels and Blissey to an extent) or a strong fighting pokemon like Machamp can help out. Other than that, they should be helping your team more than you will probably need to help them!
Counters???
Despite the general notion about them being overpowered, I find there are sufficient ways to deal with them. Their main counter is the four moveslot syndrome, and the I can't do shit to steel type pokemon syndrome! So steels are the first counters that come to mind. You see the prevelance of Scizor and Metagross and Ubers and it will be no different when the arrive in OU. Hell, the #2 pokemon in the game counters them extremely well so I don't see a problem there. Tyranitar does quite well against Latias, as she has to go out of her way to prevent her death, and she may end up staying in and wishing and getting her ass Crunched to death. Weavile can do the same thing, preying on both of them with pretty much everything it has. Mamoswine deals heavy damage, particularly to Latios, who takes 67-80% from a Life Orbed Ice Shard unless it has more than minimum defenses. Yanmega will beat them one on one easily if you bother to lead with it them. Blissey gives them plenty of trouble if they lack a status protection move or Trick. Bronzong can come in on anything and do heavy damage with Gyro Ball, and even Trick a Choice Band onto them if they continuously try to recover every time he comes in. Heracross destroys them with Megahorn and can Pursuit them also. Registeel can come in on anything and status them with Thunderwave, or Curse up and start doing damage with Iron Head. In general, they don't like status if they don't devote one of their valued moveslots to protecting against it. Gengar speed ties with them but usually runs Scarf and can do good damage with Shadow Ball. Mismagius and Spritomb might be able to Calm Mind up with them if they come in immediately (specifically Spiritomb who can rest it off). Cacturne, Hounchcrow, and Absol can play serious guessing games with them but really don't want to switch in. Other than that, they aren't too hard to beat because they aren't nearly as sturdy as you would think. The loss of Soul Dew gives you an extra turn to deal with them, so just be quick in your countering.
Metagame Analysis:
My main pleasure really is speculating how much they will change the metagame. I wouldn't say the will be too overcentralizing the way Garchomp was, but they will certainly shake things up a bit, and most likely knock Heatran and Zapdos down a notch, while raising Scizor to #1 and Tyranitar to the top 3 probably, which consequently increases Sandstorm-type pokemon usuage on a whole. Mamo will come back to power, and steel pokemon might dominate a little more than they used to. However, I don't think too much will change beyond that.
This concludes my thread... so rate, hate, steal! No, jk... discuss the possibilites and potential of the Lati@ twins!!!!
