Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

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I battled quite a bit the first month Skymin came out, and whenever I used Skymin, I found it really hard to bring in what with SR being omnipresent making every single Hit Point precious, and I wouldn't bring it in even on EQs unless I was certain it would nail something hard.

You can't rely on SDef drops and Flinches to nail kills, so yeah, if that's the way you're going to use Shaymin you won't find much success, trust me... People who play smart can easily trigger a chain of switches that pits Shaymin against a counter that will force it out, effectively chopping off 25% of its health. A lack of recovery hurts it I guess, as does Blissey bringing it to a grinding halt. From what I can make out, it's a good Pokemon, something you should always prepare for, but it's not really uber...
 
Wakalord pretty much hit it on the spot of what I was trying to say.

It isn't about how tremendously lucky it gets and how often.

It's about how effective it plays and how long it stays in the game, and how hard it is to play around it.

I still haven't heard of a legit counter, Registeel and friends still get raped.

SubSeed + Air Slash + Earth Power/Seed Flare is way too strong for the OU metagame.

Zephiel is right, we DO want a metagame with skill. This comes with prediction based on tendencies of opponents, team building, and some other strategies. What skymin does is make this a pretty much braindead game, in the OU metagame that is. Which is why it belongs in ubers.

It's ridiculously hard to play around it, and like Garchomp/Wobbuffet, you'll have to sacrifice to play around it.


edit: I just read the post above me and stopped once he said Blissey is a counter. Sub Seeding takes away more than enough for skymin to recover to spam subs, and even more with leftovers.
 
Tell me, if it is so amazingly overpowered and uncounterable, why then is it still #10 in usage? If it really is as powerful as you're telling me, then surely everybody would be using it and its usage would be a lot higher? I have not seen any good battlers, i.e. ones in the top 20, use Skymin competitively on a serious team. If it is so 'broken', surely these elite battlers would be abusing it on every team?
 
Tell me, if it is so amazingly overpowered and uncounterable, why then is it still #10 in usage?
The same reason why Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S got banned. Wobbuffet was like.. 40-50 in usage? Deoxys-S was like 14 when it got banned.
 
edit: I just read the post above me and stopped once he said Blissey is a counter. Sub Seeding takes away more than enough for skymin to recover to spam subs, and even more with leftovers.

Skymin is going to run out of Substitute PP before Blissey runs out of Softboiled PP. Remember, Blissey doesn't have to Softboiled every turn, while Skymin is basically forced to, unless it wants to take a 4x effective Ice Beam to the face. If Skymin cannot Substitute against Blissey, it's either going to be dead or crippled.

The only way Skymin is beating Blissey is with a hell of a lot of luck with Seed Flare. Even then, it's very situational. Blissey has to switch in on the Seed Flare, get the SDef drop. Skymin then has to risk its life by trying to get repeated flinches.
 
Skymin is going to run out of Substitute PP before Blissey runs out of Softboiled PP.

To be fair Blissey will become near useless after that since barely any Softboiled / Wish PP will be left. It will also have little PP in it's attacking move. Blissey without a healing move isn't useful at all.
 
The same reason why Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S got banned. Wobbuffet was like.. 40-50 in usage? Deoxys-S was like 14 when it got banned.

The difference here is that all the best players were using and abusing Wobbuffet and D-S to climb the ladder. Imperfectluck used a team based around wobbuffet to hit number 1, and he also used D-S to get to top:

imperfectluck said:
Voted uber.

The Deoxys-E lead set has allowed me at one point in time to capture all 5 top ranks on the leaderboard simultaneously. It gives me a ridiculous advantage against nearly all non Deoxys-E leads. Let's get rid of it.

This is just not the case with Shaymin-S.
 
The difference here is that all the best players were using and abusing Wobbuffet and D-S to climb the ladder.
The best players don't have to use a pokemon to determine that it's uber. The best players don't play all of the ladder matches, in fact, they play a small percentage of them. If you truly believe that, it's just shortsighted. It's the general use and thought that matters. Wobbuffet wasn't used much at all but it became an uber anyway, because clearly, it was. This is proven by the fact that a player such as IPL is voting for it to become uber while he is not using Shaymin-S (insofar as I am able to see).

I agree that Deoxys-S was far more game breaking than Shaymin-S is now (he reduced all games to luck too, a mere speedtie), but Shaymin-S is still uber.
 
Hmmm...I'm not sure why the Skymin uber voters are saying that Skymin's luck value is one sided. Seed Flare or Air Slash missing basically spells doom for Skymin under certain circumstances.

Shaymin-S relies on gambling, if you get that lucky flinch, hooray for you, but if your Air Slash misses while you repeatedly spam it on a Tentacruel and it uses Ice Beam, it's gg.
 
Shaymin-S has plenty of paper counters, something that Deoxys-S, Garchomp and Wobbuffet had nothing of. Crobat, Registeel, Regice, Dragonite, Tentacruel, Blissey - they can all take on Skymin and win. Skymin doesn't overcentralise the metagame - it is at #10.

It just doesn't have the raw power to bulldoze past its counters. I really don't see why so many people are saying it is uber simply because of the 'hax' value. Jirachi and Togekiss rely on luck as well, but you don't hear any shouts for them being put in uber.
 
Just some numbers to throw out there for y'all.

In the month that Shaymin-S was number 10, we have:
1. Heatran
2. Scizor
4. Zapdos
5. Blissey

I believe all of this is a result of a metagame with signs of compounding around Shaymin-S in order to stop it, even if Shaymin-S itself is not used as much as they are. More Heatran than ever before are using +Speed natures with Scarves, Scizor is a good pokemon in its own right and packs a powerful priority hit against Shaymin-S, Zapdos is a counter if it switches in while SR isn't up, and we can discuss over and over again but I believe Blissey's rise in popularity once more is due to Shaymin-S. Hell, in August, Zapdos was sitting way down at 23!
 
Jirachi isn't fast enough to pull it off and Iron Head has a lot worse coverage than Air Slash, as for Togekiss, the speed element is still an issue and it doesn't have the SpA attack to carry it off. It also doesn't get a nice -2 Sp. Def drop 80% of the time something switches in. Skymin can deal with Dragonite with HP Ice.

The problem that I have with skymin is that two air slash flinches are often enough to put a so called "counter" with in KO range. Gyarados can survive a Seed Flare to KO back with Ice Fang, but if Skymin Air Slashes twice with Flinches, which happens 32.49% of the time, it is able to finish that pokemon off. You cannot "play around" Skymin, or use half hearted counters, you pretty much have to have something definate to deal with it, or pray for luck, which sometimes wont happen.

I am personally on a bit of a knife edge here, unsure of where to vote, on one hand Skymin hasn't caused me huge issues, but when it does it is hugely frustrating, and I'm sure it is for others too. Especially in things like tournaments when one match actually matter it could make all the difference. Arrrgh, I'll probably read through this thread one more time before voting.
 
The only reason Heatran is running +Speed Scarf is to outspeed Skymin and to a lesser extent neutral nature Scarfed Heatran. If that's not overcentralising I don't know what is.
 
Heatran and Zapdos are also excellent counters for Scizor. Zapdos usage rose so much because it gained an invaluable new fire move, and because many teams used it to counter Scizor (compare the no. of Bold Zapdos to Calm Zapdos). Shaymin-S is no more centralising than any other sweeper, be it Scizor, Salamence or Gyarados.
 
Legacy Raider,

Deoxys-S as a revenge killer couldn't do enough damage and it was countered rather easily. Scizor could do a good job at it. As a lead without Superpower (Deoxys-S leads very rarely had Superpower), Pursuit / Trick / Taunt makes short work of it. Deoxys-S was in talks of going to back to Ubers even before Dual Screen was discovered!

Garchomp is the only one I can agree on, but Trick Cresselia counters it.

Wobbuffet is countered by a sleep inducer and Taunt and Trick. Wobbuffet never centralised the metagame in my experience (interestingly) but it did get banned.

Skymin doesn't overcentralise the metagame - it is at #10.
Oh really?

Just some numbers to throw out there for y'all.

In the month that Shaymin-S was number 10, we have:
1. Heatran
2. Scizor
4. Zapdos
5. Blissey

I believe all of this is a result of a metagame with signs of compounding around Shaymin-S in order to stop it, even if Shaymin-S itself is not used as much as they are. More Heatran than ever before are using +Speed natures with Scarves, Scizor is a good pokemon in its own right and packs a powerful priority hit against Shaymin-S, Zapdos is a counter if it switches in while SR isn't up, and we can discuss over and over again but I believe Blissey's rise in popularity once more is due to Shaymin-S. Hell, in August, Zapdos was sitting way down at 23!
Shaymin-S is no more centralising than any other sweeper, be it Scizor, Salamence or Gyarados.
We strive for skill in this metagame, not luck. Shaymin-S prevents this. Scizor, Salamence and Gyarados do not rely on luck, Shaymin-S does.

Shaymin-S, with it's luck factor, can have a rookie beat an experienced trainer. It makes the metagame rely less on skill and more on luck.

Shaymin-S is a different situation. It has many counters. However, since you value the best players so much, some of them think that Shaymin-S is uber simply because of the luck factor. It has the perfect moves, stats and ability to abuse it. It is really difficult to go around it. It can abuse luck far better than Jirachi and Togekiss. That is why it should go to uber. It should be banned for the same reason that OHKO and Evasion moves are banned - to prevent luck.
 
Just some numbers to throw out there for y'all.

In the month that Shaymin-S was number 10, we have:
1. Heatran
2. Scizor
4. Zapdos
5. Blissey

I believe all of this is a result of a metagame with signs of compounding around Shaymin-S in order to stop it, even if Shaymin-S itself is not used as much as they are. More Heatran than ever before are using +Speed natures with Scarves, Scizor is a good pokemon in its own right and packs a powerful priority hit against Shaymin-S, Zapdos is a counter if it switches in while SR isn't up, and we can discuss over and over again but I believe Blissey's rise in popularity once more is due to Shaymin-S. Hell, in August, Zapdos was sitting way down at 23!
Heatran-It's usage was increasing even during the Garchomp-test; it just has great synergy with other Pokes and thus its usage continued to go up. Skymin is surely a factor in its usage and the way it's used, but Heatran's usage would have gone up either way, especially with Scizor surging in usage.

Scizor-Nothing to do with Skymin, really; Bullet Punch is just a great move on it in general, having priority and getting to 90 BP with STAB and Technician, coming off 130 Atk. Peole realized that and started using it.

Zapdos-More a response to Scizor than Skymin. Zapdos got Heat Wave in the transition to Platinum, opening it up as a good counter for Scizor, along with its typing. Skymin helped it along, perhaps, but most of it is probably due to Scizor.

Blissey-Meh, it's the best special wall out there. Having another special sweeper to take care of does give people more reason to use her, true. However, again, this is something that most likely would have happened even without Skymin, due to both Heatran's and Zapdos's increased usage. Skymin does play a part, of course, but again we can't pit this change just on Skymin.

Pretty much, not seeing how any of this has much to do with Skymin; it helped the process along, sure, but these are things that either already were happening (Heatran) or would have happened either way (Scizor, Zapdos, Blissey), so I don't see reason in banning Skymin for these metagame changes, since even if it's banned. Even if we do ban it, because Skymin wasn't the sole or even primary cause for these changes, they would continue either way, menaing banning it because of them would be pointless.
 
Can we please try to get rid of the completele objectivity here. Yes sure its not all Skymin, but its also not all anything else is it. For example rise in Blissey useage, this is probably attributed to the rise in Heatran AND the rise in Zapdos AND the rise is Skymin useage. Skymin stinulates all three of them to rise so therefore Blissey has risen too. It helps heatran that it provides as a check against Skymin AND as a check against Scizor doesn't it, as for Zapdos exactly the same goes for that. Scizor can probably be attributed to the awesome new priority move that it has, but also Skymin as people want a way of revenge killing it that doesnt involve being locked into a move, Heatran is Kingdra set up bait etc... See my point, its like a food chain, you cant change one thing and not expect it to have a knock on effect throughout the whole chain.

EDIT: Beat IPL to it ;)
 
August Heatran: #8
I agree, Zapdos and Heatran rise is also due to Scizor. The whole metagame revolves around countering a few top threats right now (Scizor, Heatran, Shaymin-S etc) is the way I see it, and the fact that for example Scizor and Shaymin-S can both be countered by Scarf Heatran or Zapdos isn't helping things.
 
The problem that I have with skymin is that two air slash flinches are often enough to put a so called "counter" with in KO range. Gyarados can survive a Seed Flare to KO back with Ice Fang, but if Skymin Air Slashes twice with Flinches, which happens 32.49% of the time, it is able to finish that pokemon off. You cannot "play around" Skymin, or use half hearted counters, you pretty much have to have something definate to deal with it, or pray for luck, which sometimes wont happen.
Really? As you said, Skymin has a 32.49% chance of flinching Gyarados twice, meaning that Gyarados has a 67.51% chance of KO'ing it. Seems like Skymin would be the one praying for luck there.

And really... is that luck that's dependable enough for it to be worth someone to actually bother to try and do so, time and time again, and be ban-worthy as a result? If you wouldn't use Dynamicpunch on anything not named No Guard Machamp, which has 50% accuracy, because it isn't worth it, then is that 32% chance really enough for Skymin for it to be worth it enough to be banned? It wouldn't seem so to me. I'd really rather use something that actually will do the job of KO'ing Gyarados, without luck being needed, rather than hope on a 32% chance from Skymin, much the same way I wouldn't put Dyanamicpunch on anything besides Machamp, because the extra power and confusion just isn't worth the risk.
 
I'd rather not put my Gyarados at a 32% risk of getting flinched to death at all, just as I'd not like to put a win in jeapordy because of a 20% Garchomp Sand Veil.
 
Legacy Raider,Wobbuffet is countered by a sleep inducer and Taunt and Trick. Wobbuffet never centralised the metagame in my experience (interestingly) but it did get banned.

And Wobb is going to switch in on one of those pokemon why? Wobb literally has no counters. By definition, a counter has to be able to switch in and pose a threat, and nothing can switch into Wobbuffet. You'd have to either have every pokemon on your team be able to handle Wobbuffet or predict Wobb coming in every time. Meanwhile, a well-played Wobb either makes you lose whatever it switched in on or gives your opponent one free turn of setup. Your opponent's Salamence gets a free Dragon Dance. Your opponent's Scizor gets a free Swords Dance. Your opponent's Skymin gets a free sub or even a free Growth. It's just too much.

Oh, and BTW, when one says Skymin has a 32% chance of that KO, keep in mind that Sheer Cold gets that KO with 30% chance.
 
Really? As you said, Skymin has a 32.49% chance of flinching Gyarados twice, meaning that Gyarados has a 67.51% chance of KO'ing it. Seems like Skymin would be the one praying for luck there...

You fail to see the point of my post. I was not saying that Skymin is not something you can attempt to play around, hell you could bait Garchomp into an Outrage with Cresslia and then do whatever the hell you want with Heatran etc... as I was saying with Skymin, especially with Gyarados you have already lost 25% to Stealth Rock on the way, maybe you take an air Slash on the way in, chance is up to 57% already, if ANYTHING (almost0 eats a Seed Flare on the way in they will most likely lose to Skymin.
 
Wobbuffet is countered by a sleep inducer and Taunt and Trick. Wobbuffet never centralised the metagame in my experience (interestingly) but it did get banned.

Haha, good luck trying to switch that counter in to stop Wobbuffet! Or does every member of the team carry Taunt+Trick+a sleep move?

We strive for skill in this metagame, not luck. Shaymin-S prevents this. Scizor, Salamence and Gyarados do not rely on luck, Shaymin-S does.

Shaymin doesn't rely on luck to be good; the luck is rather an extra bonus, much like Sand Veil on Garchomp. If Shaymin-S didn't have Serene Grace, I doubt Shaymin would seriously be considered for Ubers.

It has the perfect moves, stats and ability to abuse it. It is really difficult to go around it.

It has great Speed and Special Attack, and decent coverage in Grass, Flying, Ground and the Hidden Power of your choosing. It has some viable support options in Leech Seed, Substitute, and Growth (yeah, it has Swords Dance, but the special sweeper, with controversial moves like Air Slash and Seed Flare, is the set we're most focused on).

However it is rather frail, has a 4x weakness to Ice and 2x weakness to Electric, Fire, and Rock (all of which are among the most used types in OU), loses 25% of its health switching into Stealth Rock, is easily picked off by most priority moves, and actually has solid counters in Blissey, Zapdos, and Regice, two of which are already in the high echelon of OU. Scarf Heatran works just as fine with a careful switch in.

Shaymin-S, with it's luck factor, can have a rookie beat an experienced trainer. It makes the metagame rely less on skill and more on luck.

It can abuse luck far better than Jirachi and Togekiss. That is why it should go to uber. It should be banned for the same reason that OHKO and Evasion moves are banned - to prevent luck.

No one can do anything about luck. It comes and goes. Hell, the entire metagame is centered around luck; the only real skills in competitive battling as it is include making a team, and how efficiently you can execute that team's strategy in battle, through prediction and knowledge of the popular sets. You can't control what team you're going to face (unless you're playing against yourself, haha), which could potentially contain a team that 100% counters your own! By allowing things like critical hits, fluctuating accuracy, flinch (heh), and the chance of not moving due to paralysis, how can the community ban a pokemon that abuses these things to its advantage? How can it ban anything to satisfy this "quota" of reducing luck? How much luck is too much? If the community really was striving to eliminate luck from the game, all of these factors would've been abolished by now. It's like giving a child toys, but forbidding the child to play with them.

Shaymin-S is a different situation. It has many counters. However, since you value the best players so much, some of them think that Shaymin-S is uber simply because of the luck factor.

Just because some of the best players think it's uber doesn't necessarily make it so, as documented throughout history..
 
Haha,
However it is rather frail, has a 4x weakness to Ice and 2x weakness to Electric, Fire, and Rock (all of which are among the most used types in OU), loses 25% of its health switching into Stealth Rock, is easily picked off by most priority moves, and actually has solid counters in Blissey, Zapdos, and Regice, two of which are already in the high echelon of OU. Scarf Heatran works just as fine with a careful switch in.
it's not weak to electric and blissey and zapdos are not good counters, i blissey switches in on seed flare and gets a special defense fall, it's killed by air slash flinch plus another seed flare, and if zapdosswitches in on seed flare it's easily killed by hp ice after the sp. def drop
 
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