This is exactly why Soul Dew should be banned from Standard play. Powerful as specs without the choice. Nearly impossible to wall (meh, Blissey walls EVERYTHING that's special).
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Lati@s Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
This is exactly why Soul Dew should be banned from Standard play. Powerful as specs without the choice. Nearly impossible to wall (meh, Blissey walls EVERYTHING that's special).
I'd like to focus now on Latias.
Finally, someone gets off the Latios topic.
Can't Bronzong do the same thing, but... not fear Pursuit users and Choice Scarf Heracross?
I'm almost positive that this set would attract Electivire... a lot. Especially since its Expert Belt'd Ice Punches can actually muster up some damage to Latias. I'm also sure that this would just encourage faster Pokemon to use Taunt, like, Alakazam, Weavile and Azelf who all don't mind her Dragon Pulses or... Draco Meteors?
Swampert can bust it up with Avalanche if Latios doesn't carry Grass Knot. If does carry Grass Knot, Blissey can just stop it with a hopeful Toxic.
You forget that most Mence run Outrage with either a Life Orb, a mixed set, a Dragon Dance-Lum/Yache Berry set or just Choice Banded. I highly doubt that Latias will like taking hits like that. I really haven't seen a full SpecsMence in so long...
Tyranitar, Weavile running Taunt, Heracross *Scarfed* (or, Banded if Latias only has Dragon Pulse), anything running a Physical SE move with either Speed or Bulk can mess with her.
That's right, hopefully, RestTalk would be an option as a counter for Breloom, assuming that Spore already hit a Pokemon on Latias's team.
So many things can run this either with more bulky or, Speed. Again, this'll just encourage faster Taunt users to come in on Latias. In fact, Trick users can snatch its Light Clay away and make it only able to setup a single Screen.
This will only get things that can sponge Special hits better (namely Blissey, Steel Types and Zapdos) to increase in popularity. Roar/Whirlwind users can rejoice (yay, CMShuffle Suicune!) as Latias can't do much to them.
I didn't forget anything (aside from Swampert). When I wrote that section I ignored Physical attackers altogether. Special walls should NOT be walling Physical hits. You do have a point with Swampert though.
I never said it is without flaws or was better than others. :P Yeah, there are better users of some of these sets out there but the option of having it available is still a plus. It's the versatility and unpredictability that gives Latias the thumbs up.
Yeah, Special attackers are on the rise, and unfortunately that means special walls and sponges are rising too. We need a physical force to show up out of nowhere and shift everything IMO. This should be no reason for me not to make a set though. Of course Phazors can stop it, they can stop any set up (as long as they survive anyways).
What is this misconception that Latias is frail physically? Granted, base 80 / 90 physical defense isn't stellar, but Zapdos has 90 / 85, which that much different. Latias can make a decent Gyarados check, or counter if you will. Check this out:
+1 Life Orb Ice Fang vs. Max HP / Max Def Latias: 62.64-74.18%
+1 Life Orb Ice Fang vs. Max HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 64.06-75.52%
And obviously, Gyarados has Stone Edge to deal with Zapdos. You can then retaliate with Thunderbolt. But yeah, thanks to higher speed an no need for investment, Latias actually takes Physical hits better than Zapdos, which counts for something if you need a good fighting resist and get sick of the yellow bird.
Also, I thought of another idea for a support Latias:
Latias @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold / Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spe / 252 in one of the defenses
*Dragon Pulse
*Reflect
*Psycho Shift
*Recover
Works if you need something to switch into status. You can come in on Cresselia Thunder Waves and Dusknoir Will-O-Wisps, and pass them off to Tar / Weavile if they switch in.
+1 Life Orb Ice Fang vs. Max HP / Max Def Latias: 62.64-74.18%
+1 Life Orb Ice Fang vs. Max HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 64.06-75.52%
And obviously, Gyarados has Stone Edge to deal with Zapdos. You can then retaliate with Thunderbolt. But yeah, thanks to higher speed an no need for investment, Latias actually takes Physical hits better than Zapdos, which counts for something if you need a good fighting resist and get sick of the yellow bird.
Also, I thought of another idea for a support Latias:
Latias @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold / Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spe / 252 in one of the defenses
*Dragon Pulse
*Reflect
*Psycho Shift
*Recover
Works if you need something to switch into status. You can come in on Cresselia Thunder Waves and Dusknoir Will-O-Wisps, and pass them off to Tar / Weavile if they switch in.
I can agree with that, actually. Latias would actually be abke to keep some of those sweepers in check, but, wouldn't that just cause them to start carrying things to stop Latias? I mean, Gyarados is already 2HKOing Latias with a +1 Life Orb Ice Fang, Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave are Latias's only ways to hope to survive Gyarados. With Thunderbolt taking up a slot, Latias gains some coverage, but, loses the chance to use up that bulk of hers. Giving up one moveslot to KO one Pokemon isn't really worth it. Latias honestly has better things to do with that moveslot. Besides, don't the Rotom forms already keep Gyarados in check?
Since when does a minimum Speed Latias outspeed a +1 Dragon Dance, no wait, offensive Dragon Dance Gyarados? If it tries to hit it with Thunder Wave, Gyarados will just deliver the finishing blow, have something heal up its paralysis and continue its sweep, or just Dragon Dance again and again. If it tries to run Thunderbolt, it'll be losing some extra support options like Reflect, Recover, Thunder Wave, Safeguard, etc. unless it's a Trick set. Zapdos's movepool will always support Thunderbolt or Discharge on any of its sets, mainly because of the STAB boost and the fact that it can use its other moveslots and Pressure to outstall other threats and oh, Scizor can't rape it with Pursuit.
No Speed makes Latias an unhappy wall, sadly. Taunt usage as I said before will just increase and this set makes Taunt an easier move to use. Also, keep it noted that Ice Beam is a viable option to get rid of Substitute Skymin or Skymin in general. Another thing, why would any physical attacker just stay in on Latias after a Reflect is up knowing that they're not going to KO it and that Latias will just cripple them? Also, Dusknoir is hitting Latias with Will-o-Wisp because...? I mean, Shadow Sneaks and Ice Punches dent it a bit, but, I honestly see Dusknoir just going for the KO or Pain Spilt rather than Burning something that runs either Refresh or Safeguard and on an added note, Latias won't even cause any real damage with Shadow Ball ;___;. Cresselia Thunder Waveing Latias makes sense as it can't keep Tyranitar from raping it.
You do realize that Choice Band Tyranitar is never OHKO'd by Choice Scarf Dugtrio... right? And you do know that Crunch will OHKO it... right? Heracross isn't always OHKO'd by Aerial Ace and Megahorn will OHKO it. Weavile will always OHKO with a Choice Banded Ice Shard while it can easily catch Latias with Pursuit. Also, the chances of Dugtrio switching in safely on any of their moves is just... low, very low.
Mmkay, Ice Beam hits Grass and most Dragon types harder who would otherwise take Dragon Pulse and proceed to either OHKO or setup on Latias. Ice Beam 3HKOs the standard Defensive Seeder Celebi who can just take the status and Dragon Pulse, get a Leech Seed up and get out virtually unscathed it should also be mentioned that Latias outspeeds that Celebi variant as well. It also hits Gliscor much harder who will in the end just setup a Stealth Rock, Swords Dance or Agility and Roost off the Dragon Pulse. This also gives Latias the ability to take on Salamence, Flygon and Dragonite much easier, especially if it gets a Reflect up (Calm with max HP/SpDef will never be OHKO'd by any of their Draco Meteors, Choice Specs or not). Steel types always get the jump on Latias, even with Hidden Power Fire, Steel types who don't take fatal damage from it (only Scizor takes fatal damage >_<) can just set up on it and/or KO it. Shaymin-S is 3HKO'd by Dragon Pulse while Ice Beam is an OHKO, Shaymin-S also gets the chance to Leech Seed Latias and stall it with Air Slash and Substitute, usually, with occasional flinch, Shaymin-S will come out on top of Latias while if Ice Beam was being used, it would die before it got a chance to even attempt a Leech Seed.
I only said that it should get a mention to get rid of the already mentioned Pokemon so Latias won't be forced out so often.
Ice Beam is quite possibly the poorest option on Lati@ unless you are specifically using Latias to counter Skymin. Otherwase, it has no use.
I only gave it a mention on that set, I never said to fully replace it >_>. The fact is that bulky Grass types or Grass types in general namely Celebi and Skymin would take much more damage from Ice Beam rather than Dragon Pulse. Without Stealth Rock support, Dragon Pulse won't OHKO Salamence nor Flygon. It also nets a KO on the unsuspecting Gliscor who can setup and Roost off the damage. But, um, yeah, I only said it was a viable option I wasn't saying that it's as good as Dragon Pulse.
Well, I don't think Gliscor will set up on Latias any time soon, because she could easily be packing Calm Mind and make short work of him.
Um... notice the bolded and my post above. I ONLY mentioned it as an option for the set you mentioned above. I don't see Calm Mind there.
IloveDarkrai! said:
Are you suggesting that user is going to let Gyarados set up, then switch in Latias on Ice Fang? Frankly the user would be an idiot and what exactly is Gyarados going to be Ice Fanging that would not have already one or have switched out? Dragons maybe, Grounds no because of Waterfall, but the most common grass types are Skymin and Celebi. Celebi wins one on one and Skymin will glady take a min of 53% from Gyarados with Seed Flare and with how common SR is your looking at a Gyarados with under 25% and Life Orb or the Skymin user will switch out to the Gyarados counter: Latias. And Thunder/Dragon actually hits pretty well neutrally: Maggy and Steelix resist the combo but Steelix is BL and Maggy cannot heal so its worn down. A set of Recover,T-Bolt,Draco Meteor, Reflect doesnt seem like a stretch imo.
Gyarados Dragon Dances on the switch, outspeeds it an already, half of Latias's HP is gone >_>. I never suggested that Gyarados would actually already have a Dragon Dance up.
Not... exactly. Since a Dragon Dance'd Ice Fang 2HKO's Defensive variants 100% of the time on the average, factoring in Leftovers. Grass Knot musters up a 3HKO, how can Celebi win if it switches in on a Dragon Dance?
Okay, but the question how exactly is Latias getting in safely, too? Assuming that Stealth Rock is up, too, a Bold, Max HP/Max Def Latias doesn't have a chance of switching in on an Ice Fang with Stealth Rock up and since it will 2HKO nearly 100% of the time and Gyarados outspeeds it as well. Skymin is OHKO'd by Ice Fang while Gyarados survives Seed Flare, so, I don't get your point about this. After Skymin is KO'd and they switch the Latias to finish the job, Gyarados can still muster a 2HKO without a Dragon Dance and Stealth Rock unless it carries Thunderbolt, in this case, the Gyarados user can switch out, scout what Latias plans to do and switch back in.
Yeah, good luck getting past Magnezone's Substitute while it just sits there and outstalls Latias. I say that it will outstall it since it takes 3 Thunderbolts to break its Substitutes while Magnezone gets free turns to wear it down and once Latias Recovers, Magnezone gets a free turn to get either more Leftovers recovery or another Subsitute. Keep it noted that a Bold natured max HP/max Def Latias is 3HKO'd by a max Special Attack, Modest Magnezone's HP Ice (The Steel Trapper).
Actually, it does. Latias has better things to do rather than just hitting everything, tbh Latios would have more fun with that set. Also, Draco Meteor would cause Latias to switch out more often, attracting Pursuit users like the green one with the sharp teeth and the band around its head or the cat thing with the bandana in his hair.
Coverage isn't really that important due to the fact that Latias lacks the pure power to be combined with its bulk to make it past certain walls. Supporting moves like Thunder Wave and Wish would actually allow for Latias to benefit from that extra bulk. Latios, however, can just go full offensive only minding Blissey and even then, Trick could stop her.
I used to use a a Latias a while back in ADV against my friends(who use ubers) and this following set proved to be effective against their Blazikens, Salamence, etc. Although it is a completely different game with the all of DPPt's changes, I think it could work well as a good counter to some threats.
Latias@leftovers
Bold/Timid Nature
Evs: [bold]: 252 HP, 156 Def, 52 SpA, 56 Spe/ [timid]: 252 HP, 176 Spe, 80 Spa
-Dragon Pulse
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [Fire]/Psychic
-Recover
Okay, so, this basically counters a few things, namely, Infernape, Gyarados and to a small extent Scizor.
If Latias comes into a DD, Gyarados does 69.23% - 81.32% with Ice Fang adding Life orb boost. In return, it easily KO's with T-bolt.
Infernape can't do shit to Latias unless it packs a Hidden power Ice, which fails to 2HKO with Life orb, giving Latias the ability to switch in and 2HKO with Dragon Pulse or OHKO's with Psychic.
It can counter Scizor to an extent with HP fire, it does 56.98% - 67.15% to a 252/252 Hp/SpD positive nature scizor(lol) and 97.23% - 114.53% to the standard 32 HP scizor. Scizor does 48.08% - 56.59% to Latias with bullet punch + 1 SD + LO, which means it can only switch in on Scizor when it Swords Dances or a fighting attack and outspeed & kill it with HP fire if it decides to use an attack other than bullet punch. However, it cannot switch into Scizor's bullet punch.
Latias@leftovers
Bold/Timid Nature
Evs: [bold]: 252 HP, 156 Def, 52 SpA, 56 Spe/ [timid]: 252 HP, 176 Spe, 80 Spa
-Dragon Pulse
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [Fire]/Psychic
-Recover
Okay, so, this basically counters a few things, namely, Infernape, Gyarados and to a small extent Scizor.
If Latias comes into a DD, Gyarados does 69.23% - 81.32% with Ice Fang adding Life orb boost. In return, it easily KO's with T-bolt.
Infernape can't do shit to Latias unless it packs a Hidden power Ice, which fails to 2HKO with Life orb, giving Latias the ability to switch in and 2HKO with Dragon Pulse or OHKO's with Psychic.
It can counter Scizor to an extent with HP fire, it does 56.98% - 67.15% to a 252/252 Hp/SpD positive nature scizor(lol) and 97.23% - 114.53% to the standard 32 HP scizor. Scizor does 48.08% - 56.59% to Latias with bullet punch + 1 SD + LO, which means it can only switch in on Scizor when it Swords Dances or a fighting attack and outspeed & kill it with HP fire if it decides to use an attack other than bullet punch. However, it cannot switch into Scizor's bullet punch.
Ok a quick break down then.
Gyarados switches in on say.... Skarmory.
Gyarados DDs and Latias comes out.
Now there are two choices for the Gyarados users: death (barring CH or flinch) or switch.
Now another one.
Gyarados switch in on Skarmory.
Gyarados uses Ice Fang and Latias takes 53% (max)
Now there are again two choices: switch or death.
In both senerios, Gyarados comes in again except at either 50% or 40% if SR is done. How exactly does Gyarados win out against Latias? And in the second senerio you are assuming for whatever reason Gyarados will be using Ice Fang over its great STAB? Unless there is prior knowledge of ones team, Gyarados should be either using Waterfall or Dragon Dance.
I've used Twave, Reflect Celebi to stop that offensive Gyarados before. The only way Gyarados will get through Twave, Reflect is with a CH or Flinch on its first turn.
I also ment Dragon Pulse, not Draco Meteor. Obviously its inferior to Draco Meteor because of its side effect. Dragon Pulse breaks Maggys sub with two hits and maggy is now commonly running HP Fire (Scizor) and there are also other variations with HP Grass. So there is more chances for Latias to win out there.
Gyarados switches in on say.... Skarmory.
Gyarados DDs and Latias comes out.
Now there are two choices for the Gyarados users: death (barring CH or flinch) or switch.
Now another one.
Gyarados switch in on Skarmory.
Gyarados uses Ice Fang and Latias takes 53% (max)
Now there are again two choices: switch or death.
In both senerios, Gyarados comes in again except at either 50% or 40% if SR is done. How exactly does Gyarados win out against Latias? And in the second senerio you are assuming for whatever reason Gyarados will be using Ice Fang over its great STAB? Unless there is prior knowledge of ones team, Gyarados should be either using Waterfall or Dragon Dance.
I've used Twave, Reflect Celebi to stop that offensive Gyarados before. The only way Gyarados will get through Twave, Reflect is with a CH or Flinch on its first turn.
I also ment Dragon Pulse, not Draco Meteor. Obviously its inferior to Draco Meteor because of its side effect. Dragon Pulse breaks Maggys sub with two hits and maggy is now commonly running HP Fire (Scizor) and there are also other variations with HP Grass. So there is more chances for Latias to win out there.
I was actually going by the scenario you posted earlier:
Ice Fang, of course would be the obivious option here.
Shouldn't this apply to everyone that uses Celebi and not just by what you use? I honestly rarely see a combination of those two moves on Celebi. I only see one or the other, mostly Thunder Wave and in that case, Gyarados can just Dragon Dance up, again and again.
Hm, I thought so because to the recoil from Draco Meteor (by recoil, I mean the SAttk drop).
Well, when you mentioned Magnezone and said that it would be worn down , I was under the intention that it had a reason to stay in >_>. If you had said something like "Magnezone also commonly runs HP Fire to deal with Scizor", I would've actually understood that point a bit better. Other than that, Magnezone has no reason to stay in.
if latios and latias both make it into OU, will both allowed to be on the same team? I know that they are slightly different but so are the rotom forms and they're banned together.
Also, is using Deoxyes-A and Deoxyes (normal form) banned on the same team?
Also, is using Deoxyes-A and Deoxyes (normal form) banned on the same team?
You don't see a Calm Mind on that set, but your opponent doesn't not see it. They can't see your set and you could be packing Calm Mind, so you won't be seeing Glisor switch in. That's what RL was getting at I believe.
They are two different pokemon with two different Base Stats and two different movepools. All of the Rotom's are the same pokemon, have the same stats (barring original), and have the same movepool except for one move. I believe we're going to go based on the Battle Tower and say that they will be allowed on the same team (although it's probably not a great idea).
I've said this in one form or another before, but if you can do something like ban Garchomp to ubers and previously have Deoxys-S in OU, the least you can do is test the Lati twins (sans Soul Dew, I am for banning that at least) in OU. I mean, there's nothing wrong with banning an item, hell Nintendo does it. This isn't like Light Ball or Thick Club, as both Marowak and Pikachu do not overcentralize or any of that other crap with it (and both are obtainable in-game without any special events, unlike Soul Dew).
In my opinion, you'd have to ban all the specific items, otherwise it doesn't work. Anyway, if you want to ban events, why not ban Celebi and Shaymin and Lv.50 Dragonite? You've got more reason to ban them than Soul Dew, which is actually obtainable in PBR (and before you say anything, I know that Celebi is obtainable using that Colosseum bonus disk, but that's beside the point). Surely you can't just ban one of a kind, otherwise you'd have to ban all the OHKO moves seperately.
I was thinking of how effective a Specs Latios would be paired alongside a Machamp. What stops / hinders a Latios sweep? Blissey, Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, Bronzong, etc. Machamp can switch in on all of these guys and deal massive damage to them with Dynamicpunch, while Machamp's counters in Gliscor, Hippowdon and Gyarados won't be enjoying a Specs Draco Meteor much.
I think this has the potential to be quite the offensive threat.
LR.
I think this has the potential to be quite the offensive threat.
LR.
Machamp can certainly not switch into Magnezone. Heatran might also me dangerous to Latios.
Ok, so maybe not Magnezone. But yeah, I was just pointing out how helpful it can be for the other pokemon. It really will be a strong offensive combo. I'll change Magnezone.
LR.
LR.