Petrie, most Bulky Waters (like 99%) of them aren't running Special Defense. If they were, they aren't "bulky" anymore. Sure, Vaporeon and co. can start going Special Defense, but then Gyarados has fun and walks all over them.
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Lati@s Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
Looking at the paper numbers, I'd say Latios is good where it is at with ubers. To be honest the Specs variation is just insane, with 110 base speed. Latias maybe, but I think that Latios should probably not get the okay. However I think a test phase would be worthwhile.
Edit: Gah.
Edit: Gah.
*110 base speed
It has 130 base SpA.
It has 130 base SpA.
The types of moves the Lati twins can use (specially) are Dragon, Psychic, Electric, Ice, Grass, and various Hidden Powers. The Lati twins are hardly lacking in coverage.
The Latios to three Pokemon (only Latios since most people tend to deem this Pokemon more broken than his sis...ter?)-
Garchomp:
This Pokemon was deemed Uber for many reasons. One reason is that, it could force switches and on those switches it could boost its most deadly offensive stat, Attack two stages. Garchomp could predict a switch and Swords Dance up, take a hit with its Swampert-esque Defenses and then Swords Dance up, use Sand Veil to Swords Dance up or just take use of a Yache Berry, either way, Garchomp had a +2 Attack, two STAB moves with good coverage and Fire Fang to get rid of anything resisting that combination (Skarmory and Bronzong would be 2HKO'd by a +2 Fire Fang). Another already mentioned reason would be its goddamn bulkiness T_T. Garchomp and Swampert share alike Defensive capibilities and as a result, Garchomp would take hits without any investment. With investment, Garchomp could actually pose a threat to an unprepared... okay, screw it, any team that doesn't pack Weavile and Mamoswine together. Finally, there's the fact that when easily coupled with a Sandstorm Team, or, user, it can save itself occasionally from an OHKOing move. There are probabally more reasons, but, those are 3 I can name off the top of me head.
Latios has access to Dragon Dance raising its base 90 Attack and base 110 Speed while running a STAB Outrage and unSTABed Earthquake. Personally, I don't consider this as much a threat as Garchomp since for one, its Earthquake doesn't get a STAB boost, meaning that bulky Steel types (or any type that doesn't take SE damage to Outrage) running an OHKOing move (or if it can take multiple hits, a 2/3HKOing) can easily counter that set. Also, unlike Garchomp, it can Recover off its lost HP at the expense of some extra coverage. Calm Mind is more deadly, but, pokemon like Tyranitar and (lol) Umbreon would just have fun with it.
Shaymin-S (Skymin):
Ah, yes, the Pokemon that at first, everyone would think to be Uber... until it actually got "into" the metagame after the first couple of months of battling. Serene Grace, Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power, Hidden Power, Leech Seed, Substitute, a base 127 Speed and a base 120 Special Attack would make someone think that it's broken. After the metagame got used to it, its hype quickly died out after its weaknesses were truely exploited (I myself use Dragonite to fully counter it). Its only impact on the metagame was just causing Heatran, Scizor and Choice Scarf users to rise in popularity. Skymin is a bit frail, but, like many sweepers before it, it can be bulky at times.
Latios ties with Gengar in Speed and can raise its Special Attack and already great Special Defense. This boost; however, will keep its mediocore base 80 Defense the same, causing most Pursuit, Sucker Punch and Crunch users to come in more often on it. Even Tyranitar has no fear against a Calm Mind set unless it has up more than 2 Calm Minds when it switches in. Skymin has been in the metagame for months and already, people have gotten so used to it that Skymin sweeps have become more luck based. Latios on the other hand hasn't been in the OU metagame yet and as such, it would be best to test it for a month as with any suspect. Who knows, maybe it won't take much to stop it <_<.
Cressela can counter the ChoiceTrick and Calm Mind sets if it too carries Trick.
On the subject of Latias, its position in OU would only provoke more Taunt users and would cause Blissey and walls such as that (like Zapdos) to be a lot more common. Taunt users wouldn't have to invest much in Speed since Latias doesn't tend to max its Speed out, anyway. Blissey can easily outstall Calm Mind variants since Toxic+Substitute would take up either its recovery moveslot, or, an offensive moveslot need for extra coverage. Support sets cannot do much if they max out their Speed, all it can do its outspeed something and do one of the following: A)do pitiful damage to whatever it outspeeds with crappy coverage. B)Paralyze something that will just Taunt it. C) take fatal damage from a hit directed at its base 90 Defense and its Dragon/Psychic typing. I honesly don't see much of a problem with her being in OU.
Garchomp:
This Pokemon was deemed Uber for many reasons. One reason is that, it could force switches and on those switches it could boost its most deadly offensive stat, Attack two stages. Garchomp could predict a switch and Swords Dance up, take a hit with its Swampert-esque Defenses and then Swords Dance up, use Sand Veil to Swords Dance up or just take use of a Yache Berry, either way, Garchomp had a +2 Attack, two STAB moves with good coverage and Fire Fang to get rid of anything resisting that combination (Skarmory and Bronzong would be 2HKO'd by a +2 Fire Fang). Another already mentioned reason would be its goddamn bulkiness T_T. Garchomp and Swampert share alike Defensive capibilities and as a result, Garchomp would take hits without any investment. With investment, Garchomp could actually pose a threat to an unprepared... okay, screw it, any team that doesn't pack Weavile and Mamoswine together. Finally, there's the fact that when easily coupled with a Sandstorm Team, or, user, it can save itself occasionally from an OHKOing move. There are probabally more reasons, but, those are 3 I can name off the top of me head.
Latios has access to Dragon Dance raising its base 90 Attack and base 110 Speed while running a STAB Outrage and unSTABed Earthquake. Personally, I don't consider this as much a threat as Garchomp since for one, its Earthquake doesn't get a STAB boost, meaning that bulky Steel types (or any type that doesn't take SE damage to Outrage) running an OHKOing move (or if it can take multiple hits, a 2/3HKOing) can easily counter that set. Also, unlike Garchomp, it can Recover off its lost HP at the expense of some extra coverage. Calm Mind is more deadly, but, pokemon like Tyranitar and (lol) Umbreon would just have fun with it.
Shaymin-S (Skymin):
Ah, yes, the Pokemon that at first, everyone would think to be Uber... until it actually got "into" the metagame after the first couple of months of battling. Serene Grace, Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power, Hidden Power, Leech Seed, Substitute, a base 127 Speed and a base 120 Special Attack would make someone think that it's broken. After the metagame got used to it, its hype quickly died out after its weaknesses were truely exploited (I myself use Dragonite to fully counter it). Its only impact on the metagame was just causing Heatran, Scizor and Choice Scarf users to rise in popularity. Skymin is a bit frail, but, like many sweepers before it, it can be bulky at times.
Latios ties with Gengar in Speed and can raise its Special Attack and already great Special Defense. This boost; however, will keep its mediocore base 80 Defense the same, causing most Pursuit, Sucker Punch and Crunch users to come in more often on it. Even Tyranitar has no fear against a Calm Mind set unless it has up more than 2 Calm Minds when it switches in. Skymin has been in the metagame for months and already, people have gotten so used to it that Skymin sweeps have become more luck based. Latios on the other hand hasn't been in the OU metagame yet and as such, it would be best to test it for a month as with any suspect. Who knows, maybe it won't take much to stop it <_<.
Cressela can counter the ChoiceTrick and Calm Mind sets if it too carries Trick.
On the subject of Latias, its position in OU would only provoke more Taunt users and would cause Blissey and walls such as that (like Zapdos) to be a lot more common. Taunt users wouldn't have to invest much in Speed since Latias doesn't tend to max its Speed out, anyway. Blissey can easily outstall Calm Mind variants since Toxic+Substitute would take up either its recovery moveslot, or, an offensive moveslot need for extra coverage. Support sets cannot do much if they max out their Speed, all it can do its outspeed something and do one of the following: A)do pitiful damage to whatever it outspeeds with crappy coverage. B)Paralyze something that will just Taunt it. C) take fatal damage from a hit directed at its base 90 Defense and its Dragon/Psychic typing. I honesly don't see much of a problem with her being in OU.
I don't see Latias being any problem at all and in fact I think she would be good for the metagame, serving as a great Mixape, Skymin, Offensive Zapdos, and Heatran counter. Tyranitar puts a major major strain on Latias making her life very hard, either forcing her to carry a specific move for him, greatly limiting her versatility, or else risk instant death to CBPursuit or Crunch. Scizor and Metagross are similar cases and make things even more complicated as they require a different move to take care of (although I suppose Reflect could feasibly cover all three). This crippling pursuit weakness I think makes Latias almost a non-issue, and I feel almost guarantees her into OU
Latios I'm a little torn on because I feel he may, as imperfectluck said, centralize the metagame too much around steel types, namely Bronzong, Scizor, Heatran, and Metagross; however, he too shares Latias' Pursuit weakness and to an even greater degree with his weaker defenses and propensity to use Draco Meteor and cripple his SAtk, forcing him to switch out. I can definitely see Latios fitting into OU though; I have no doubt he would probably be a major force and significantly change up the game, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. I could see this going either way really.
Latios I'm a little torn on because I feel he may, as imperfectluck said, centralize the metagame too much around steel types, namely Bronzong, Scizor, Heatran, and Metagross; however, he too shares Latias' Pursuit weakness and to an even greater degree with his weaker defenses and propensity to use Draco Meteor and cripple his SAtk, forcing him to switch out. I can definitely see Latios fitting into OU though; I have no doubt he would probably be a major force and significantly change up the game, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. I could see this going either way really.
The game is already centralized around Steels so im not to worried about that being a factor, my big OMG point is that Latios may become a fierce Choice Specs/Scarf revenge killer, coming in with it's high speed, or his Ground immuntiy along with a massive Special Defense.
Someone said Dragons lack coverage their moves are resisted by one Type, and most carry a ground/fire attack to remedy this problem.
Instead of focusing a fourth of the moveset around one specific pokemon (which is rare too), why not just have another Empoleon covered in your other pokemon? If Empoleon DOES start to get comfortable and gets around, then I could understand the potential of the move. Until then, it's denying coverage because of one specific uncommon threat.
Then again I got to ask, why modest specs? They have the same speed as Gengar, and gengar almost always runs timid except for scarf. I don't see why lati@s wants to lose their 1 big advantage of outrunning mence/flygon. Jolly CB flygon/mence and even +speed mixmence are not uncommon you know.
The whole point of Specs is to come in and hit hard. You switch into something you can threaten, and they should be switching because you are threatening. If they stay, you still get a KO which is your overall goal anyways. Gengar and 'Mence are not high on the list of what you want to switch into if you ask me, so speed isn't going to matter much as you won't be doing a speed contest with them. Draco Meteor can OHKO 'Mence and Gengar if they switch into you, so outspeeding them isn't important. The point is that you try to avoid them face-to-face (and it may just be me, but I'd rather not enter a speed tie with Gengar and let the game decide who wins the showdown). Also note that if you know you're running modest and you ARE found face-to-face with 'Mence or something like that and there's any doubt you won't win in speed, there is no reason to stay in.
That's the best I can explain it. I'm pretty sure that I worded it awkwardly and such but I couldn't get it much better.
It's not like I don't understand how to use a choice pokemon, I just make note that almost everything in this metagame infernape+ is runs +speed on average, and it's not like that is without reason.
I myself run Mild Infernape which faces issues not unlike a modest specs latias in terms of speed. Mild nape cleans clock when people try to wall it, much better than +speed nape. The biggest issue you face is that you are almost 100% sure you'd lose any infernape-v-infernape situation, and it's no doubt that a team using modest latios would have to be a bit concerned about how to deal with enemy latios and gengar.
I myself run Mild Infernape which faces issues not unlike a modest specs latias in terms of speed. Mild nape cleans clock when people try to wall it, much better than +speed nape. The biggest issue you face is that you are almost 100% sure you'd lose any infernape-v-infernape situation, and it's no doubt that a team using modest latios would have to be a bit concerned about how to deal with enemy latios and gengar.
Timid is definately a usable nature on Specs Latios, but I think Modest may be better in some cases.
Modest nature ensures that you 2HKO even Careful Tyranitar with Surf, and 2HKO steels such as Metagross and Scizor. Without Modest, you are losing those guarentees which could bite you in the ass in the long run. Veedrock already explained why it isn't essential to run Timid on the set. Cool, you can outrun Infernape... but what does Infernape do to Lati@ anyway? Unboosted HP Ice is laughable at best, and I don't htink Infernape is going to bother revenge killing you. As I mentioned before, speed ties with Gengar are irrelevant also, since the majority are Scarfed anyway. So then your stuck with the question... what lies between a Modest nature and Gengar?
346 Speed: Infernape
339 Speed: Adamant Dugtrio (doesn't care b/c of Sucker Punch), Mismagius, Rapidash... ok so 2 of those aren't even OU.
334 Speed: Garchomp (yay hes uber!)
328 Speed: Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, Salamence, Flygon... but this is assuming they run positive and max speed. Zapdos won't do very much to you. Jirachi with max speed is offensive and can't touch you. Celebi is a joke and never maxes speed. Salamence and Flygon are tough to tell. Flygon is commonly scarf, which you can discover early in the match when he's U-turning to hell and back. Which leaves Salamence. I dont think Salamence will ever risk that confrontation.
319 Speed: You... you sit here, above base 95s
So its up to you. I recommended 330 Speed for the Dragon Dancer and Timid for the sweeper sets, but Choice REALLY doesn't need it all that much. I actually run Timid when I run Specsmence, but Latias is sitting at a comfortable speed w/o boosting.
Modest nature ensures that you 2HKO even Careful Tyranitar with Surf, and 2HKO steels such as Metagross and Scizor. Without Modest, you are losing those guarentees which could bite you in the ass in the long run. Veedrock already explained why it isn't essential to run Timid on the set. Cool, you can outrun Infernape... but what does Infernape do to Lati@ anyway? Unboosted HP Ice is laughable at best, and I don't htink Infernape is going to bother revenge killing you. As I mentioned before, speed ties with Gengar are irrelevant also, since the majority are Scarfed anyway. So then your stuck with the question... what lies between a Modest nature and Gengar?
346 Speed: Infernape
339 Speed: Adamant Dugtrio (doesn't care b/c of Sucker Punch), Mismagius, Rapidash... ok so 2 of those aren't even OU.
334 Speed: Garchomp (yay hes uber!)
328 Speed: Zapdos, Jirachi, Celebi, Salamence, Flygon... but this is assuming they run positive and max speed. Zapdos won't do very much to you. Jirachi with max speed is offensive and can't touch you. Celebi is a joke and never maxes speed. Salamence and Flygon are tough to tell. Flygon is commonly scarf, which you can discover early in the match when he's U-turning to hell and back. Which leaves Salamence. I dont think Salamence will ever risk that confrontation.
319 Speed: You... you sit here, above base 95s
So its up to you. I recommended 330 Speed for the Dragon Dancer and Timid for the sweeper sets, but Choice REALLY doesn't need it all that much. I actually run Timid when I run Specsmence, but Latias is sitting at a comfortable speed w/o boosting.
Lati@s I think that they would have to stay in UBER. Movepool very big, stats incredible and if they wear Soul Dew became invincible. The Choice Sets are very good and the DDancers Sets I think as RaikouLover that maybe the most appropiate is 330 Spd.
grettings
grettings
I base myself on battles i have seen not on 'pointless' theorymon. The reason why i am certain is because of the current phylosophy and therms people ban things around here. If something is even just a little too powerfull compared to the top 10 pokes, people will vote it to uber.
Just look at deoxys-E even though it wasn't all that common people just invented reasons like 'centralising the lead game' same will happen to Lati@s
Pursuiting is just as much theorymon, trying to pursuite something is far harder then it sounds. Gengar for example could easily have been killed by any pursuit user yet it still remained top 3 until Hypnosis drop
Infernape can always toss out a U-turn at Lati@s face and do a good amount of damage to you, and then swapping away to something else. That's definitley NOT nothing and it can put the opponent at an advantageous position. I'm not sure how common U-turn is on Infernape, but it's definitely something to look out for, especially when you think you have the upper hand and then lose >50% from Orbed U-turn...
Not OU but pops out sometimes, moreso than Rapidash
And this is really where I'm worried. No doubt that the twins will impact the metagame quite a bit. I'd take my chance at outrunning them with my own because they could be very destructive, and I want my first opportunity to get rid of them. Not as easy as it seems, though, but their prevalence (if so) will cause many uses, and when there's a lot of uses there will be a number of face to face meeting. Although the Modest one will most likely retreat because it doesn't want to take chances, this puts the Timid one at an advantageous position by denting whatever they send in hard. But whatever, I guess.
You can always go HP Fireless and have that 31 Speed IV to beat other Lati@s.
Also please stop the Lati@s-Gengar comparison.
Oh, these two are finally up to a test? I just may get out of my hibernation in order to participate in this test.
I am curious, if Latias was proven to be not an Uber and Latios was, surely they wouldn't still be grouped together by the same merit of movepool and very similar stats and both banned because of it?
Getting to the part of banning an "item". I think simplicity and ease of understanding a rule should be a top prority. Now I know that smogon certainly doesn't do things by Gamefreaks standards. But if Nintendo can get the message across that a "certian item is banned or will have no effect if used on" Latios or Latias to it's target audience of 8-14(speaking generally) then I think this community could understand it as well?
Garchomp wasn't just banned JUST because of Yache berry was it?
I am curious, if Latias was proven to be not an Uber and Latios was, surely they wouldn't still be grouped together by the same merit of movepool and very similar stats and both banned because of it?
Getting to the part of banning an "item". I think simplicity and ease of understanding a rule should be a top prority. Now I know that smogon certainly doesn't do things by Gamefreaks standards. But if Nintendo can get the message across that a "certian item is banned or will have no effect if used on" Latios or Latias to it's target audience of 8-14(speaking generally) then I think this community could understand it as well?
Garchomp wasn't just banned JUST because of Yache berry was it?
You be surprised at how many people think that's the reason.
Anyways, I expressed earier and I still stand by that the only way these could be OU is without the Soul Dew. Imagine giving them the power of Choice Specs, but being allowed to switch moves. Predicted wrong? Well use the right move this time. People have mentioned that the test hasn't been announced without it, but with it they are bound to be voted Uber. Hell, there's speculation already that they'll go Uber with a locking item, so why allow the same benefit (and more) at no expense?
After looking over the sets, Specs is definitely the way to go on Latios unless the thought of you being locked in a move makes you uncomfortable, in which All out Attacking @ Life Orb would be an acceptable alternative.
A majority of the discussion has been over Latios and prediction on tier placement. Put that aside until you actually test him (I've tested the band set, and while it ruins things, it's not versitile enough.)
I'd like to focus now on Latias.
Her general motive it seems is support/wall. She can become a superb special wall or a pseudo-physical wall if needed.
On RL's General/Wish Support sets (special), she can switch into a Modest Scarftran's HP Ice and take 32% tops (Flash Fire Fire Blast does even less!). To pose a semi-immediate threat, they'd have to carry Dragon Pulse (which can hit up to 42%). Latias can then provide excellent Paralysis and other support (depends on the set). Ground types that switch into the T-Wave can't do much back, as their STAB misses without Gravity and lack anything that can hit back hard (Maybe Flygon, but come on; if I'm forgetting something else, let me know). Latias is good for those that acknowledge the need for a special wall, but despise Blissey for whatever reason. It should be mentioned that SE hits still hurt pretty bad (Modest Max 'Mence Draco Meteor can hit 74% minimum) and that physical blows rip her apart. And when a huge threat comes in (cough T-Tar cough), Pursuit is always there ready for her >.> (won't KO, but it'll hurt like a @#$%&).
For the Physical Support, she can't take blows very well at all (so I recommend against it), but if you need a Breloom SubPunch counter, she's probably the best you can get with Psychic stab (if you have it, Dragon pulse is still a 2HKO, or OHKO with Sub+SR). Again, I recommend against this because any SE hit will rip her apart and any non-SE will still hurt pretty bad.
Dual Screen, gotta love this. This set has potential to provide great team support (much like speed Deoxys) and allow safe setup while your team takes reduced damage all around. A lot of potential here, but I feel it may be overlooked/shadowed by the other sets (namely the supports).
While her SpA isn't as good as her other half, it's still up there. Base 110 isn't something to mock. Alongside Calm Mind and Attacks with good coverage (see Latios), Latias can potential sweep anything that comes her way as she can take priority blows a bit better. Timid would probably be the best option here to outrun any immediate threat while CM will boost your SpA. I'm definitely going to devise a set to take advantage of this (walling was never really my thing) and I'll get the set up once I think it over and make it "flawless."
The same way you can ban certain Pokemon from a battle. If someone tries to use Soul Dew, the smarter person would run a damage calculation if some type of bullshit happened like Latios took that Gengar's Life Orb's Shadow Ball without Leftovers recovery happening.
Mmkay, Lucario has a diverse movepool, 3 priority moves, 3 ways to boost its offenses, and nicely distributed stats. Swords Dance Lucario found its fate within Rotom's new forms. Crunch OHKO's them after a Swords Dance >_>. Then, that leaves Gliscor and Dragons to deal with. Once you know what moveset something's running, it's not hard to take down. Latias had Calm Mind, but, Toxic Blissey stops her. If she has Substitute, Refresh or, Toxic, any Steel, Bulky water with a Physical move that can 2-3HKO or Roar/Whirlwind (*cough* Skarmory), and Pursuit user would just love to switch in Latias. Latios will just drive more fear into anything switching in since it has to fear Surf, Draco Meteor, Psychic, Trick, Dragon Dance etc.
I can strongly agree with this statement since Latios will be Tricking Choice Specs to something much slower than a 319 Speed.
The question is, how... exactly is that stopping them from coming back in later to mess up Latios's plans? I mean, the giveaway that Latios is running Modest is that it's 2HKOing those two. The smarter person would switch out from that, switch something in to take the Surf (bulky Waters or Water Absorb Pokemon like Tentacruel and Vaporeon which are common on Sandstorm teams) then, wait for you to switch, scout what you're going to use and switch back.
What about U-turn? It's not uncommon, but, it's not common on Infernape, mainly, I guess to net some extra damage on Psychics like Celebi and Azelf so the appropriate counter can be switched in safely. If I'm correct, the standard Mixape (with U-turn in the slot of something, probabally Grass Knot since Infernape can easily get away from Swampert and Tyranitar) with U-turn causes around 56%-ish damage to a min/min Latios.
A Modest ScarfGar's Shadow Ball will always OHKO a 4/min Latios with around 5% gone from its HP on the average (otherwise, it's a 20% chance), Stealth Rock will always OHKO. So... why stay in? Life Orb and Specs variants of Gengar will always OHKO Latios, residual damage or not. Latios has absolutely no buisniess to stay in on Gengar, so, why talk about it T_T?
Don't get me wrong, U-turn variants will just pop up of of nowhere, taking over 50% damage each time. Otherwise, it's a waste of EVs.
Still, it's waste of EVs. Mismagius only comes in as a trapper or a bulky Ghost who will just Will-o-Wisp Dragon Dance variants.
Screw that landshark >:D.
Zapdos can Thunder Wave, or worse, Toxicate Latios into its doom. Jirachi rarely runs max Speed unless it's Scarfed with Trick, Celebi too. So that leaves Salamence and Flygon. Salamence is rarely Scarfed however, Jolly Dragon Dance variants aren't rare either. So the question is... what variant of Latios is Salamence up against? Any variant can pound an OHKO into Salamence's beating heart while it could be easily outsped at the same time. Flygon can 2HKO with a couple of Choice Scarf U-Turns, but, if that Latios turned out to be a Dragon Dance variant, you could be facing some horrible problems. The problem is that Latios actually has diversity with its movepool and when combined with its offensive power, you may have to sacrifice something, just to see what it's planning to do.
That's right, fuck ScarfGar's who run HP Fire :(.
Also, an Outrage will OHKO most variants (and this includes bulky variants) Salamence, Flygon and Kingdra, even with Intimidate, it just sucks that Steels get a free switch in and have a free turn (or two) to mess with Latios.
if soul dew was allowed i would really love to run a set with dragon pulse / HP fire / surf / substitute. This set would completely detroy the entire metagame other than blissey and empoleon. Sub on the switch and proceed to two hit kill anything that threatens lati@s.