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Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY

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Physical Manaphy? Never. Don't use it to sweep. HOWEVER, physical manaphy makes a good Rain support. Example of Manaphy that I used in MDWL as a Rain support pokemon:

Manaphy @ Damp Rock
Nature: Brave
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
*Waterfall
*U-turn
*Rain Dance
*Rest

Basically, I would use Rain Dance, and then a slow U-turn to get in a Swift Swimmer. Waterfall is a 2HKO on Blissey, and Rest for the obvious Hydration abuse.
 
*sigh* We also get yet another bulky water who can stop a majority of dangerous sweepers, but this time with much higher speed than average. This is a fun calculation:

+1 Salamence with Life Orb and max attack using Outrage on max/max Vaporeon: 91.16%-107.33%

on max/max Manaphy: 76.73%-90.59%

Not to mention that max HP max Defense Manaphy sits at 236 speed, outspeeding Adamant Tyranitars and nearly all Scizors, so it doesn't have to take a Swords Danced X-Scissor. Grass Knot also has lower base power compared to the other bulky waters. So we not only get a top class special sweeper, but also an excellent tank that outdoes all the other general tanks (bulky waters). It doesn't have a 50% recover move like Milotic or Vaporeon, but it can use the Hydrorest combination to stay healthy for a long time and support its teammates with Rain. The combination is arguably better, two turns with 100% recovery and removal of status, meaning it won't be eaten by a surprise Toxic from the likes of Heatran or Swampert.
 
Peachfuzz said:
*sigh* We also get yet another bulky water who can stop a majority of dangerous sweepers, but this time with much higher speed than average. This is a fun calculation:

+1 Salamence with Life Orb and max attack using Outrage on max/max Vaporeon: 91.16%-107.33%

on max/max Manaphy: 76.73%-90.59%

Not to mention that max HP max Defense Manaphy sits at 236 speed, outspeeding Adamant Tyranitars and nearly all Scizors, so it doesn't have to take a Swords Danced X-Scissor. Grass Knot also has lower base power compared to the other bulky waters. So we not only get a top class special sweeper, but also an excellent tank that outdoes all the other general tanks (bulky waters). It doesn't have a 50% recover move like Milotic or Vaporeon, but it can use the Hydrorest combination to stay healthy for a long time and support its teammates with Rain. The combination is arguably better, two turns with 100% recovery and removal of status, meaning it won't be eaten by a surprise Toxic from the likes of Heatran or Swampert.
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Yup, you're right. The whole problem with it is that...?
 
I'd like to see Manaphy brought into the game; I think it would not be to difficult to deal with and it would bring more variety to the game.
 
Bob Marley said:
I'd like to see Manaphy brought into the game; I think it would not be to difficult to deal with and it would bring more variety to the game.
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Please, if you want to really add something dont say "I think that..." without giving some objective and concrete reasoning. If you want to contribute to the discussion, then add some competitive consideration like "X is a counter to Manaphy because it can OHKO back, is not OHKOed and outspeeds him" etc. A lot of people have explained why the Tail Glow set had been deemed broken.
Have you some concrete reasoning to oppose in order to have faith into Manaphy's balance? If yes, we would all be glad to read them. If not, then it means that either you have not bothered reading them which is bad, or that you read them but you acritically refused them because "you feel differently", which is even worse. Can you prove us your point?
 
To whoever asked about Signal Beam on Ludicolo and Abomasnow...


Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Calm, 252/176 HP/SDef Ludicolo!
Minimum damage: 40.66%
Maximum damage: 48.35%

Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Calm, 252/176 HP/SDef Ludicolo!
Minimum damage: 44.89%
Maximum damage: 52.84%

As long as there's no Tail Glow or Stealth Rocks on the field, Ludicolo is only 3HKOed. With Stealth Rock, the second Ludicolo has a 19.13% chance of surviving two hits. If there's Rain, Ludicolo will always outspeed Manaphy, and do this much with Energy Ball:

Calm, 76 SAtk Ludicolo used Energy Ball on Modest, 80 HP Manaphy!
Minimum damage: 47.09%
Maximum damage: 52.84%

78.37% chance of a 2HKO, 100% chance if there's Sandstorm or Stealth Rock on the field. As we're talking about Life Orb Manaphy, if it ever attacks you, it's a guaranteed 2HKO anyway.

Rain Offense set gets 2HKOed by Signal Beam, but at least survives +2 Surf even in the Rain. And, with its usable 279 SAtk, does 56.51%-67.04% with Energy Ball to Manaphy. If we're under the rain, Ludicolo is faster and thus always kills Manaphy.


Now, let's talk about Abomasnow...


Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Surf on Sassy, 252/96 HP/SDef Abomasnow!
Minimum damage: 44.53%
Maximum damage: 52.6%

18.87% of a 2HKO, SR makes it a surefire 2HKO (well, duh). Now, what about Signal Beam...?

Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Sassy, 252/96 HP/SDef Abomasnow!
Minimum damage: 46.88%
Maximum damage: 55.73%

74.69% chance of 2HKO. Eww. Better pray to your PokéGods or invest more in SDef, otherwise you aren't going anywhere...

Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Sassy, 252/172 HP/SDef Abomasnow!
Minimum damage: 44.27%
Maximum damage: 52.08%

13.61% chance. Much better, and the only downside is that now Impish Swampert is faster than you, but who cares, we're talking about Manaphy here.

Sassy, 0 SAtk Abomasnow used Wood Hammer on Modest, 80 HP Manaphy!
Minimum damage: 66.48%
Maximum damage: 78.67%

So, let's say you survive two Signal Beams, which means you can now use Wood Hammer. In the first turn (switch-in), Manaphy took 10% to Life Orb and 6% from Hail. The second turn, it lost 10% again to Life Orb; then, you use Wood Hammer and does 66.48% (240 HP), and takes 80 HP as recoil. Now, you die due to the recoil, and then Manaphy takes Hail damage...

10 + 6 + 10 + 66 + 6 = 32+66 = 98% damage

What a (BAN ME PLEASE). Well, as long as you survive the second Signal Beam (86.39% chance) and do at least 68% damage with Wood Hammer (87.17%, correct me if I'm horribly wrong)... 0,8639 x 0,8717 = 75.31% chance of dying and taking Manaphy with you. And setting up endless Hail.



I think I'm just gonna use Ludicolo :~~
 
Well, my point has already been discussed. I've seen posts which say that bulky waters and faster hard hitting threats would deal with Manaphy. There is only speculation in every post right now, since it hasn't been tested yet. Hence why I did not see the reason to post calculations or other specific observations.
 
Bob Marley said:
Well, my point has already been discussed. I've seen posts which say that bulky waters and faster hard hitting threats would deal with Manaphy. There is only speculation in every post right now, since it hasn't been tested yet. Hence why I did not see the reason to post calculations or other specific observations.
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Look at Arael post above yours. That is what we need.

About Arael, this is why I think Abomasnow is not a solid counter. And why there is a true possibility of Manaphy being too much for the OU to cope with without being deeply deformed by its very presence.
 
Arael said:
Yup, you're right. The whole problem with it is that...?
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Well obviously that Bulky Waters are already a big bitch and that this one is not only potentially even more annoying, but also potentially one of the new top sweepers as well. If that isn't scary I don't know what is.
 
ChouToshio said:
Well obviously that Bulky Waters are already a big bitch and that this one is not only potentially even more annoying, but also potentially one of the new top sweepers as well. If that isn't scary I don't know what is.
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Yeah, I knew that (specially now that Skymin may get banned :/ there's always Stage 3, though), but I wanted him to tell me that because he just listed Manaphy's qualities and a "sigh". That's not good enough to me, anyone could just come and do the same with Zapdos, Blissey, Suicune, Togekiss or what-have-you.

I want Skymin back.
 
Arael said:
To whoever asked about Signal Beam on Ludicolo and Abomasnow... (That was me...)


Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Calm, 252/176 HP/SDef Ludicolo!
Minimum damage: 40.66%
Maximum damage: 48.35%

Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Calm, 252/176 HP/SDef Ludicolo!
Minimum damage: 44.89%
Maximum damage: 52.84%

As long as there's no Tail Glow or Stealth Rocks on the field, Ludicolo is only 3HKOed. With Stealth Rock, the second Ludicolo has a 19.13% chance of surviving two hits. If there's Rain, Ludicolo will always outspeed Manaphy, and do this much with Energy Ball:

Calm, 76 SAtk Ludicolo used Energy Ball on Modest, 80 HP Manaphy!
Minimum damage: 47.09%
Maximum damage: 52.84%

78.37% chance of a 2HKO, 100% chance if there's Sandstorm or Stealth Rock on the field. As we're talking about Life Orb Manaphy, if it ever attacks you, it's a guaranteed 2HKO anyway.

Rain Offense set gets 2HKOed by Signal Beam, but at least survives +2 Surf even in the Rain. And, with its usable 279 SAtk, does 56.51%-67.04% with Energy Ball to Manaphy. If we're under the rain, Ludicolo is faster and thus always kills Manaphy.


Now, let's talk about Abomasnow...


Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Surf on Sassy, 252/96 HP/SDef Abomasnow!
Minimum damage: 44.53%
Maximum damage: 52.6%

18.87% of a 2HKO, SR makes it a surefire 2HKO (well, duh). Now, what about Signal Beam...?

Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Sassy, 252/96 HP/SDef Abomasnow!
Minimum damage: 46.88%
Maximum damage: 55.73%

74.69% chance of 2HKO. Eww. Better pray to your PokéGods or invest more in SDef, otherwise you aren't going anywhere...

Modest, 252 SAtk Life Orb Manaphy used Signal Beam on Sassy, 252/172 HP/SDef Abomasnow!
Minimum damage: 44.27%
Maximum damage: 52.08%

13.61% chance. Much better, and the only downside is that now Impish Swampert is faster than you, but who cares, we're talking about Manaphy here.

Sassy, 0 SAtk Abomasnow used Wood Hammer on Modest, 80 HP Manaphy!
Minimum damage: 66.48%
Maximum damage: 78.67%

So, let's say you survive two Signal Beams, which means you can now use Wood Hammer. In the first turn (switch-in), Manaphy took 10% to Life Orb and 6% from Hail. The second turn, it lost 10% again to Life Orb; then, you use Wood Hammer and does 66.48% (240 HP), and takes 80 HP as recoil. Now, you die due to the recoil, and then Manaphy takes Hail damage...

10 + 6 + 10 + 66 + 6 = 32+66 = 98% damage

What a (BAN ME PLEASE). Well, as long as you survive the second Signal Beam (86.39% chance) and do at least 68% damage with Wood Hammer (87.17%, correct me if I'm horribly wrong)... 0,8639 x 0,8717 = 75.31% chance of dying and taking Manaphy with you. And setting up endless Hail.



I think I'm just gonna use Ludicolo :~~
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This underlines the point I was trying to make. Manaphy is the sort of sweeper that is both bulky and extremely powerful. And there is also the fact that it can quite easily run alternative options to deal, in a 'sort-of' way, with the 'counters' that have already been listed. Signal Beam for bulky Grasses, Psychic for Toxicroak, Waterfall for Blissey, etc. And it can quite easily raise its stats high to blast through these walls; Ludicolo isn't liking a Tail Glow Signal Beam by any means.

I think I must have said this for a lot of pokemon now, but it still seems appropriate. Manaphy is uncannily similar in its approach to dealing with walls to Garchomp.
 
bugmaniacbob said:
This underlines the point I was trying to make. Manaphy is the sort of sweeper that is both bulky and extremely powerful. And there is also the fact that it can quite easily run alternative options to deal, in a 'sort-of' way, with the 'counters' that have already been listed. Signal Beam for bulky Grasses, Psychic for Toxicroak, Waterfall for Blissey, etc. And it can quite easily raise its stats high to blast through these walls; Ludicolo isn't liking a Tail Glow Signal Beam by any means.

I think I must have said this for a lot of pokemon now, but it still seems appropriate. Manaphy is uncannily similar in its approach to dealing with walls to Garchomp.
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Yes, Manaphy has a way to deal with its counters. But it isn't Garchomp-like in any way. Lucario, Salamence, Zapdos (to an extent) also have ways of dealing with what tends to wall them. Not only that, but let's say you use Signal Beam on Manaphy. You are also going to use Tail Glow, of course, otherwise you're only 3HKOing. Surf is a no-brainer because we're talking about STAB here. And then what? What happens with your coverage? You must choose between Energy Ball and Ice Beam for the last slot, which means you're going to get walled somehow. And that's because I'm just ignoring Rest, or a Surf/Tail Glow/Rest/Rain Dance that will be walled by lol Vaporeon anyway.
 
bugmaniacbob said:
Manaphy is uncannily similar in its approach to dealing with walls to Garchomp.
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You cant compare Manaphy and Garchomp on this point, since Garchomp needed usually just SD/EQ/Fire Fang/Outrage or Dragon Claw to deal with its counters. Manaphy should run something like Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Psychic/Energy Ball/Signal Beam/Rest (Suposing we have Rain support, but why not add even RD?^^).
 
Bold @ Leftovers / Damp Rock
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spa or whatever you want to distribute them like
--Calm Mind
--Surf
--Rain Dance
--Rest

Anyone think that what is basically a Calm Mind Suicune with Hydro Rest has the potential to become REALLY scary?

Just to give an idea, with 6 Calm Minds and Rain this thing has a good chance (about 71%) of barely scraping a 2HKO on 252 HP / 252 SpD calm Blissey with Leftovers. 0 HP / 176 SpD Calm like in the analysis is always 2HKOed.

It is less defensive than Suicune, but has a lot more power with the Rain, is a tad faster, and can have instant 100% recovery. So long as you mind your use of Rest and watch switches to TTar, the Hippo, and Abomasnow, this thing could bulldozer over anything not immune or heavily resistant to Surf.

Just one more thing Manaphy can do awesome.
 
zarator said:
You cant compare Manaphy and Garchomp on this point, since Garchomp needed usually just SD/EQ/Fire Fang/Outrage or Dragon Claw to deal with its counters. Manaphy should run something like Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Psychic/Energy Ball/Signal Beam/Rest (Suposing we have Rain support, but why not add even RD?^^).
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Why does everyone always assume that the word 'similar' means 'near-identical'?

Manaphy in essence has the basic means to take down its 'counters' through a simple fusion of power and the right moves. Garchomp is similar to this. After all, both of them are, more often than not, beaten through checks and revenges (as well as Garchomp being possibly one of the easiest pokemon to revenge-kill that there is...)
 
bugmaniacbob said:
Why does everyone always assume that the word 'similar' means 'near-identical'?

Manaphy in essence has the basic means to take down its 'counters' through a simple fusion of power and the right moves. Garchomp is similar to this. After all, both of them are, more often than not, beaten through checks and revenges (as well as Garchomp being possibly one of the easiest pokemon to revenge-kill that there is...)
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First of all we are talking about countering, not revenge killing. Relying on a revenge killer to beat something means that at least u lose a pokemon, and unless your revenge killer is Dugtrio or uses Pursuit you are not even sure of killing him - I could just simply switch to a counter to your revengekiller and bring my sweeper on another safe switch in later.
Garchomp may seem similar at a first sight, but it is not. Even if you realize what Garchomp is running, there are no true counters to the Yache set. On the contrary, once Manaphy set is shown, there are some reliable counters - like Vaporeon, Ludicolo and Kingdra or others, depending on the set. Garchomp needs only 4 moves to deal with EVERY possible counter. Manaphy would need something like 8.
I dont want to say Manaphy is not broken. To my opinion it is, indeed, but you cant use Garchomp as a valuable comparison to prove Manaphy brokeness.
 
zarator said:
First of all we are talking about countering, not revenge killing. Relying on a revenge killer to beat something means that at least u lose a pokemon, and unless your revenge killer is Dugtrio or uses Pursuit you are not even sure of killing him - I could just simply switch to a counter to your revengekiller and bring my sweeper on another safe switch in later.
Garchomp may seem similar at a first sight, but it is not. Even if you realize what Garchomp is running, there are no true counters to the Yache set. On the contrary, once Manaphy set is shown, there are some reliable counters - like Vaporeon, Ludicolo and Kingdra or others, depending on the set. Garchomp needs only 4 moves to deal with EVERY possible counter. Manaphy would need something like 8.
I dont want to say Manaphy is not broken. To my opinion it is, indeed, but you cant use Garchomp as a valuable comparison to prove Manaphy brokeness.
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Cloyster? Lugia?

And that's what makes it so predictable.
 
bugmaniacbob said:
Cloyster? Lugia?

And that's what makes it so predictable.
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If Cloyster has any significant amount of residual damage when it switches into Chomp and Chomp's Yache Berry is still intact, you die. Sd Outrage does a minimum 70% to 252 Hp / 0 Def Bold Cloyster. With Stealth Rock and about 6% residual damage, SD Outrage is a KO.

And you actually brought up Lugia?
 
Hmm, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that the reason Cloyster was mentioned as a Garchomp counter is because of Icicle Spear and Cloyster's Skill link ability:

Garchomp used Swords Dance, you switch in Cloyster.
Garchomp used Outrage, 70% damage to Cloyster.
Cloyster used Icicle Spear - first one breaks Yache Berry, then he gets killed 4 times over.

But I thought this thread was about Manaphy?

LR.
 
The main reason I find Manaphy and Garchomp incomparable is because Garchomp had that 4x Ice weakness to captialize on, but Manaphy's Grass and Electric weaknesses are harder to exploit, and Manaphy can heal with Rest. Looking at common OU Pokemon, Heatran could easily revenge-kill a weakened Garchomp with Dragon Pulse or HP Ice, but has to Explode if it want any chance of beating Manaphy. With recovery and stat-up moves, Manaphy can afford to run quite a bit of bulk and speed, and most unSTABed Thunderbolts or Energy Balls will have trouble breaking Manaphy, whereas Garchomp could be revenge-killed easily by quite a few Pokemon.
 
umbarsc said:
The main reason I find Manaphy and Garchomp incomparable is because Garchomp had that 4x Ice weakness to captialize on, but Manaphy's Grass and Electric weaknesses are harder to exploit, and Manaphy can heal with Rest. Looking at common OU Pokemon, Heatran could easily revenge-kill a weakened Garchomp with Dragon Pulse or HP Ice, but has to Explode if it want any chance of beating Manaphy. With recovery and stat-up moves, Manaphy can afford to run quite a bit of bulk and speed, and most unSTABed Thunderbolts or Energy Balls will have trouble breaking Manaphy, whereas Garchomp could be revenge-killed easily by quite a few Pokemon.
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Why would you want to use HEATRAN to beat Manaphy at all?
 
Exactly. Even if you can outspeed it, you still can't really exploit those Grass and Electric weaknesses because of those solid defenses.
 
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